Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[b_s-wilk]

> Why are so many upset about stupid MP3 players?


Steve, it's not really about the MP3 players; it's about the biases of some
list members and their refusal to be rational where anything to do with
Microsoft is concerned.

If it were just about the players, I would have quit long ago. The problem
is that people come here for unbiased advice and sometimes they're not
getting it.


Sometimes comparing technology feature by feature isn't enough. Personal 
preferences are important whether they're based on specs or price or the 
shocking pink case, or all three. Old tech--new tech, doesn't matter as 
long as it gets the desired result--or close to it.


Good thread; kind of long; there's no accounting for taste. And that's 
better--what makes this list so much fun  [especially creative insults 
and insights]!


Betty


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Re: [CGUYS] disk defrag vs disk clean-up

[Rev. Stewart Marshall]

Defragmentation takes the physical writing on the desk and puts it in 
order.  It moves files and rewrites the file table telling the system 
where the file is located.


Disk Clean up cleans up your actual files and stem from temp files, 
cache files and such.


Look at it this way.

Disk Clean up is like going through your house and picking up all the 
loose stuff, and throwing out the trash/rubbish.


Defragmentation is like going through your house and figuring out a 
better arrangement for everything in the house and rearranging the 
whole house to make it more efficient.


I am sure there are some better technical explanations but this is 
the easiest way I know how to explain it.


Stewart



At 08:38 PM 9/23/2008, you wrote:
I was recently ask what is disk clean-up?  How does it differs from 
defragmentation?

Thanks,

Steve


Rev. Stewart A. Marshall
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org
Ozark, AL  SL 82


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[CGUYS] disk defrag vs disk clean-up

[Stephen Brownfield]

I was recently ask what is disk clean-up?  How does it differs from 
defragmentation?

Thanks,

Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[Bernie Hylton]

Well, I guess I have been appropriately put down. Thank you.

###
Bernie

It is an on-topic technology discussion.  If it bores you, we do not
mind if you delete messages with this topic. However, we don't care for
such rude, pompous notes.  Start a more interesting topic.

Thank you,

Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
Please shut this discussion down. It has long since sank below the
standards of a playground spat.


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Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W

[gerald]

At 04:59 PM 9/23/2008, you wrote:
>On Sep 23, 2008, at 4:33 PM, gerald wrote:
>
>>this article is the biggest joke i have ever seen as an argument to  
>>put micks in to a biz app environment.
>>
>>1.  get the files transfered for free
>>
>>woopee
>This can be a big deal for someone switching. At the end of the  
>exercise, their address book, claendar, and even mail have all been  
>transferred. Their music and photos are in place. They are ready to  
>begin working


what do muzak and photos have to do with a real company?

>>2.lepard is intuitive
>>
>>my wife has run OS's since before os existed(cpm), through all the  
>>xerox systems(alto,star,), windoz systems, .  she has lepard now.   
>>she sez it's tough.  when i try to run it, i can barely turn on the  
>>machine.
>
>It is amazing to me that I see so many people who have easily made the  
>switch, and within a week or so, they are very comfortable using their  
>new Macs.
>
>The approach I suggest is not "In Windows I did this. Now X&$&$&XXX*^%* %^*, 
>where is it on this X*(&Y^%%$*OI Mac? The approach that works is  
>I want to do XX, let me find the way to do it.

i told you my wife was a professional.  ran all systems.  including early mac.  
leapord is only lovely to the beholder.



>>3.no viruses
>>
>>agreed.  nobody cares, and most macs are not on a corporate network  
>>where there may be something to screw up or steal.
>
>It is amazing how many Macs are moving on to corporate networks each  
>day. If the IT staff has an open mind, things can go very successfully


absolutely amazing.  most are kids with laptops and iphones



>>4.hundreds of biz apps.
>>
>>yeah, like hallmark cards, address books, ported over ms apps etc.   
>>what about a good intregrated data base program that will handle  
>>2-3000 customers and 10-20,000skews(that is not a real big  
>>company)?  bar codes, direct mail, payroll,pos, contact manager. and  
>>at reasonable price.   i had all of those(no pos, contact mgr) in  
>>1990 when mac was trying to get a xerox unit to call a big mac.   
>>even getting a couple of fonts was pure hell, and very
>>expensive.
>
>
>No Hallmark cards, but FileMaker Pro (which is cross-platform and  
>works with SQL etc.) is a darn good database. Much of what you are  
>complaining about was fixed almost 10 years ago.


name a real business program for each and the price.  i wanted to convert from 
one business program to another the cost was to be around $250,000 buy the 
program and transfer the data..  i do not know what is filemaker pro, can i 
input orders and get out invoices with an office person and not have to write 
the program first, just load it?  what about my payroll?  what about bar 
coding?  what about , what about.  these machines are very pretty toys.  they 
do now do the biz apps of ms office, but that is not what a small business 
does.  i needed to enter 100 orders a day, ship and invoice.  all those dirty 
things a business does.  a good data base is a base upon which to write such a 
program.  what's the program?



>>5.  apple support
>>
>>does apple support 3rd party software?
>
>No, but there are many fine support personnel, trained and certified  
>by Apple who can give a hand

i certified all my employees also.  most were toilet trained.



>>6*  networking
>>
>>applenet???remember that  they network well now.  they  
>>use the industry standard networking.  no more propriatry  
>>applesomethings.
>
>This, once again is a problem solved long ago.


i said that.  long ago.  10 years after the rest of the world fixed it, and 
applets were still doing graphics and talking about their great little machine.


>You are allowed to like or dislike whatever you want, but your dislike  
>does not make your opinions fact. The Macintosh OS is robust, stable  
>and easy to support. But all of that is lost on someone who does not  
>want to look at the other side of the street.

i had a business and a bottom line.  they did not have the SOFTWARE for a 
business.  a company does not throw away legacy software to do mac because it 
is suddenly better, maybe.


>Pat
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Fake popup study sadly confirms most users are idiots

[mike]

I was just having this conversation with someone on IRC when I saw this pop
up on my rss feed...I always thought they were stupidI guess I've been
corrected.

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 1:24 PM, Tony B <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Which somehow doesn't surprise me. :)
>
>
> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080923-study-confirms-users-are-idiots.html
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W

[Jeff Wright]

> I just read an article
>  that is an
> interesting read on the subject of Macs and small business.

1. Free, Fast File Transfer From Apple

I agree, this is a good and useful service.  Dell includes this as
well, but of course, they don't have stores.

2. Mac OS X Leopard-More Intuitive, Crashes Less, Runs Faster

More intuitive and runs faster and are very subjective.  Going from
Windows to Mac is very jarring and there is a learning curve.  Crashes
less?  YMMV.

3. Unlike PCs, Macs Aren't Plagued By Viruses and Spyware Downloads

This is true, for now.  Don't run as the admin on Windows and
demonstrate a nominal amount of common sense and you won't have this
problem on Windows.

4. Hundreds of Business Applications to Choose From

This is a selling point?  Hundreds?

5. Apple Support-Accessible, Knowledgeable and, Actually, Helpful

This is likely true, but as I pointed out previously, their on-site
enterprise support sucks big time.

In the end, use what tool works for you. If that's a Mac, go nuts.


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Re: [CGUYS] Fake popup study sadly confirms most users are idiots

[Robert]

There was not enough information in the link for me to conclude how 
effective the experiment was.  For example, the article did not say if 
the students were using their own computer or someone else's computer, 
such as a school computer.  If the latter case, then a student might 
well decide that any trouble resulting from his behavior was someone 
else's problem to fix.


Tony B wrote:

Which somehow doesn't surprise me. :)

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080923-study-confirms-users-are-idiots.html


  



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Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W

[Pat Fauquet]

On Sep 23, 2008, at 4:33 PM, gerald wrote:

this article is the biggest joke i have ever seen as an argument to  
put micks in to a biz app environment.


1.  get the files transfered for free

woopee

This can be a big deal for someone switching. At the end of the  
exercise, their address book, claendar, and even mail have all been  
transferred. Their music and photos are in place. They are ready to  
begin working

2.lepard is intuitive

my wife has run OS's since before os existed(cpm), through all the  
xerox systems(alto,star,), windoz systems, .  she has lepard now.   
she sez it's tough.  when i try to run it, i can barely turn on the  
machine.


It is amazing to me that I see so many people who have easily made the  
switch, and within a week or so, they are very comfortable using their  
new Macs.


The approach I suggest is not "In Windows I did this. Now X&$&$&XXX*^%* 
%^*, where is it on this X*(&Y^%%$*OI Mac? The approach that works is  
I want to do XX, let me find the way to do it.



3.no viruses

agreed.  nobody cares, and most macs are not on a corporate network  
where there may be something to screw up or steal.


It is amazing how many Macs are moving on to corporate networks each  
day. If the IT staff has an open mind, things can go very successfully



4.hundreds of biz apps.

yeah, like hallmark cards, address books, ported over ms apps etc.   
what about a good intregrated data base program that will handle  
2-3000 customers and 10-20,000skews(that is not a real big  
company)?  bar codes, direct mail, payroll,pos, contact manager. and  
at reasonable price.   i had all of those(no pos, contact mgr) in  
1990 when mac was trying to get a xerox unit to call a big mac.   
even getting a couple of fonts was pure hell, and very

expensive.



No Hallmark cards, but FileMaker Pro (which is cross-platform and  
works with SQL etc.) is a darn good database. Much of what you are  
complaining about was fixed almost 10 years ago.




5.  apple support

does apple support 3rd party software?


No, but there are many fine support personnel, trained and certified  
by Apple who can give a hand



6*  networking

applenet???remember that  they network well now.  they  
use the industry standard networking.  no more propriatry  
applesomethings.


This, once again is a problem solved long ago.

You are allowed to like or dislike whatever you want, but your dislike  
does not make your opinions fact. The Macintosh OS is robust, stable  
and easy to support. But all of that is lost on someone who does not  
want to look at the other side of the street.



Pat


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Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W

[gerald]

this article is the biggest joke i have ever seen as an argument to put micks 
in to a biz app environment.

1.  get the files transfered for free

woopee

2.lepard is intuitive

my wife has run OS's since before os existed(cpm), through all the xerox 
systems(alto,star,), windoz systems, .  she has lepard now.  she sez it's 
tough.  when i try to run it, i can barely turn on the machine.

3.no viruses

agreed.  nobody cares, and most macs are not on a corporate network where there 
may be something to screw up or steal.

4.hundreds of biz apps.

yeah, like hallmark cards, address books, ported over ms apps etc.  what about 
a good intregrated data base program that will handle 2-3000 customers and 
10-20,000skews(that is not a real big company)?  bar codes, direct mail, 
payroll,pos, contact manager. and at reasonable price.   i had all of those(no 
pos, contact mgr) in 1990 when mac was trying to get a xerox unit to call a big 
mac.  even getting a couple of fonts was pure hell, and very expensive.


5.  apple support

does apple support 3rd party software?

6*  networking

applenet???remember that  they network well now.  they use the 
industry standard networking.  no more propriatry applesomethings.


At 03:08 PM 9/23/2008, you wrote:
>On Sep 22, 2008, at 12:06 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
>
>>Tom there are just some points you never seem to get.
>
>I just read an article 
> that is an 
>interesting read on the subject of Macs and small  
>business.
>
>Pat
>
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[CGUYS] Fake popup study sadly confirms most users are idiots

[Tony B]

Which somehow doesn't surprise me. :)

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080923-study-confirms-users-are-idiots.html


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Re: [CGUYS] Diagnosis: noise of death or ?

[gerald]

and all the bad jokes when i said i saved the box on my externals so return 
would be easy.

in maryland, the warantee sort of starts over.  they cannot keep patching to 
get you through the two years or whatever. 

At 03:26 PM 9/23/2008, you wrote:
>Contacted seagate and they were all too ready to exchange it ...I think this
>is common ...I escalated to a "tech" and he said to backup my stuff NOW and
>while waiting for the exchange drive ($20) I should visit a local religious
>institution to make sure it doesn't fly apart before the other one gets here
>...no extension on the warranty but I still have to Oct25 2010 on it which
>will carry over, so ...barracuda ate my double sawbuck ...not as bad as a
>failure be4 backup ...and they pay the s/h both ways so...
>
>Lesson...if these were such good drives why is it so easy to exchange them?
>...shop somewhere else!!
>
>-Original Message-
>From: mike [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 2:02 PM
>Subject: Re: Diagnosis: noise of death or ?
>
>
>Open the case and see.
>
>On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 10:46 AM, rlsimon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> My seagate barracuda 120gb ST3120026A is in a dell 4400 and there is a 
>> ringa janga sound which comes from the unit...I wonder if it is the 
>> unit fan because it began suddenly a few weeks ago and running 
>> SeaTools and using the
>> spindown feature, the sound doesn't go away.  The running temp is 27-30
>and
>> the drive seems to function well.  The "smart" feature is not triggered
>> according to Belarc advisor.  Drive IS under warranty.  What shuddi doo?
>>
>>
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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[Steve Rigby]

On Sep 23, 2008, at 2:51 PM, Chris Dunford wrote:


Why are so many upset about stupid MP3 players?


Steve, it's not really about the MP3 players; it's about the biases  
of some
list members and their refusal to be rational where anything to do  
with

Microsoft is concerned.


  My question was rhetorical in nature.  The thread was initially  
about MP3 players, but has since morphed.  I was just trying to  
redirect the issue a bit in the direction of sanity.


  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] Diagnosis: noise of death or ?

[rlsimon]

Contacted seagate and they were all too ready to exchange it ...I think this
is common ...I escalated to a "tech" and he said to backup my stuff NOW and
while waiting for the exchange drive ($20) I should visit a local religious
institution to make sure it doesn't fly apart before the other one gets here
...no extension on the warranty but I still have to Oct25 2010 on it which
will carry over, so ...barracuda ate my double sawbuck ...not as bad as a
failure be4 backup ...and they pay the s/h both ways so...

Lesson...if these were such good drives why is it so easy to exchange them?
...shop somewhere else!!

-Original Message-
From: mike [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: Diagnosis: noise of death or ?


Open the case and see.

On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 10:46 AM, rlsimon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> My seagate barracuda 120gb ST3120026A is in a dell 4400 and there is a 
> ringa janga sound which comes from the unit...I wonder if it is the 
> unit fan because it began suddenly a few weeks ago and running 
> SeaTools and using the
> spindown feature, the sound doesn't go away.  The running temp is 27-30
and
> the drive seems to function well.  The "smart" feature is not triggered
> according to Belarc advisor.  Drive IS under warranty.  What shuddi doo?
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Diagnosis: noise of death or ?

[rlsimon]

I mean't to say the system fan ...I think it's the drive motor on death's
door ...so does seagate!

-Original Message-
From: Tony B [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: Diagnosis: noise of death or ?


Does the drive really have a fan? That's unusual. Anyway, usually you can
isolate fan noise by ear or by unplugging it. You may not have to open the
case - not to "ear-ball" the front and rear case fans, anyway.


On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 1:46 PM, rlsimon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My seagate barracuda 120gb ST3120026A is in a dell 4400 and there is a 
> ringa janga sound which comes from the unit...I wonder if it is the 
> unit fan because it began suddenly a few weeks ago and running 
> SeaTools and using the spindown feature, the sound doesn't go away.  
> The running temp is 27-30 and the drive seems to function well.  The 
> "smart" feature is not triggered according to Belarc advisor.  Drive 
> IS under warranty.  What shuddi doo?


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Re: [CGUYS] Incoming CGUYS messages sometimes marked as spam

[MrMike6by9]

I receive my posts as plain text digests thru Gmail & thru my Comcast
accounts. Neither has flagged the digests as spam.

YMMV

> --
>
> Date:Tue, 23 Sep 2008 13:47:44 -0400
> From:Jeff Wright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Incoming CGUYS messages sometimes marked as spam
>
> > I think we covered this before, but about 1/3 of the CGUYS messages are 
> > being marked with a Spam prefix in my Inbox.  Why is this?  tia.
>
> That depends on what is being used for your spam filtering, but
> something, text or something else, is triggering your filter.  Is your
> spam filter at the server or desktop?  If the desktop, you'll either
> need to tweak some settings or add the CGUYS to your whitelist.  If on
> a server, you would need to contact your sysadmin.
>
> Spam filtering is more art than science.  I've lost track of just how
> many filters our product, Xwall, uses, but it's designed for a
> multi-filter approach, as what one will miss, another will catch.
> It's false positive rate is <1%, but it's a balancing act as to how
> aggressive to be when filtering spam.  Too aggressive and there are
> too many false positives, not aggressive enough and too much spam
> slips through.
>
> Comcast started using a filtering service that was terrible and
> blocked about a 1/3 of CGUYS messages.  There was no notice nor any
> way to retrieve the blocked messages.  That's a piss-poor and
> amateurish way of filtering spam. I moved by CGUYS sub to Gmail and
> the problem is solved.  I give everyone my gmail address now.  I don't
> plan on using the Comcast address for anything important.
>
--
He may be mad, but there's method in his madness. There nearly always
is method in madness. It's what drives men mad, being methodical.
- GK Chesterton


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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[Jeff Wright]

> The life cycle of a particular laptop is about three years, no 20!  When
> I say not much has changed, I mean recently and to the current crop of
> laptop models.  I want an Apple (in office have new HP Compaq 8510p) -
> my Apple laptop is over five years old.
>
> I must watch changes at a different level than you do.  I have noticed
> large technology-driven changes every 1-3-5 years.  The growth of change
> is indeed fast.  Consider the early PC disk drive at 10 MB!  I read lots
> of tech sites and see lots of change - current products, upcoming
> products and hope-to-be products.

We can usually get 5 years out of a laptop. The most I might do is add
RAM or put in a faster hard drive.  The 7200 RPM drives really do make
a noticable difference.

I'm still using a 7-year old, PIII 750 Mhz Dell Latitude at home.  It
gets light use, but it probably has a couple years left in it.  I just
found an unused battery for it in a box at work, which is probably at
least 5 years old.  Still charges and keeps a charge!


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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[mike]

Ok, I see what you mean now.  My remark about 20 years was regarding not the
lifecycle of a single laptop but rather the changes to laptops over 20
years.  In that I think we agree, the laptop has largely remained unchanged
except it has gotten faster/smaller etc, but no real technological changes.
I suppose when SSD is completely worked this could be considered a
significant move forward.  This and perhaps the instant on OS?  I'm not sure
speed would be considered, as speed has gone up, so has to the horsepower to
move the OS so it's sort of moot.



On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Snyder, Mark (IT CIV) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:

> The life cycle of a particular laptop is about three years, no 20!  When
> I say not much has changed, I mean recently and to the current crop of
> laptop models.  I want an Apple (in office have new HP Compaq 8510p) -
> my Apple laptop is over five years old.
>
> I must watch changes at a different level than you do.  I have noticed
> large technology-driven changes every 1-3-5 years.  The growth of change
> is indeed fast.  Consider the early PC disk drive at 10 MB!  I read lots
> of tech sites and see lots of change - current products, upcoming
> products and hope-to-be products.
>
> I do not like things that become expensive to maintain.  That has been
> my experience buying maintenance for customers who won't replace old
> stuff.  They will pay a frighteningly large percentage of the original
> purchase price each month instead buying a new product that comes with a
> 2-3 year warranty.  I worked with large gov. contract customers.  I
> could contrast costs paid by both types.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Mark Snyder
> -Original Message-
> From: Computer Guys Discussion List
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of mike
> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 2:04 PM
> To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
> Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]
>
> Well..you didn't give any reasons here...just said you had reasons
> gained from your experience.  I'm honestly not trying to play some game
> with you,
> I'm really interested in why you are backing off laptops?   If laptops
> have
> done little on new technology in their life cycle of say 20 years, why
> do you think suddenly that will change?
>
> You did say you don't buy things that will be unsupportable in a short
> period of time in reference to ipods/zune, now you say you are sure they
> will be supported by their vendors.
>
> I haven't seen any truly new technology for...well a long time.  The
> home pc has been the same for decades now, just bigger/faster/smaller
> whatever, but generally the same.  What technology have you bought that
> isn't based on 'old' technology?
>
> Your assertion that earlier products are viable for longer periods?  Is
> that because you assume that as technology changes it changes faster
> exponentially?  I don't know, this logic would lead you to never buy
> anything.  Or you would buy something assuming it would be useless in
> short order.
>
> Several bullet points I suppose then a cohesive paragraph.
>
> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Snyder, Mark (IT CIV)
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > wrote:
>
> > My reasons and opinions are based on over 25 years in the tech field.
>
> > I gave you enough facts, if you have any tech experience evaluating,
> > selecting, buying, maintaining and replacing tech products.  I did not
>
> > mean that support will disappear very soon from these vendors.  I am
> > sure MS and Apple will back up these consumer products if one buys the
>
> > support.  It is self-evident that most products are viable for longer
> > periods of time if selected earlier in their lifecycles.  Those are my
>
> > facts.
> >
> > Laptops have done little, from my point of view, on new technology.  I
>
> > am waiting for some change (and a few reviews) before I buy.  For many
>
> > of the reasons stated above.
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Mark Snyder
> > -Original Message-
> > I never said I was attacked.  I'm just weary of the left handed
> insults.
> > How about more explanation instead of dismissals?  Your reasons for
> > not buying an ipod, that it won't be supported isn't proven out by
> facts.
> > When pressed we get that questioning your view is half baked.  Could
> > have just said why you suddenly think support for HD based players is
> > going to vanish.
> >
> > I also asked what you were waiting for in the laptop arena?  What is
> > keeping you out, what would make you go in?  A new tech that will soon
>
> > be integrated?  Or just that laptops have been stagnate for years
> > except for the common line of bigger/better but nothing *new* ?
> >
> >
> > **
> > ***
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>
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Re: [CGUYS] Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's and W

[Pat Fauquet]

On Sep 22, 2008, at 12:06 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:


Tom there are just some points you never seem to get.


I just read an article  that is an interesting read on the subject of Macs and small  
business.


Pat


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Re: [CGUYS] 9500gt 512 vs 9600GSO-T2D OC 768 MB

[Jeff Wright]

> Price on your 9800?  I got the 9600 for 104 from a local dealer.

$109 after rebate from Newegg.   I think I linked it previously, but if not:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121268


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Re: [CGUYS] When AOL was ...

[Chris Dunford]

> AOL offered a lot more than compuserve, genie, delphi, or indeed any of
> the other similar services.  It had more people, was easier to use than
> any of its competitors.

Sure, I don't think there's any question about that. The question (and a
trivial indeed) is whether or not it was "cool". As far as the techies were
concerned, it wasn't, and part of that was precisely -because- it was easier
to use: it was considered to be dumbed-down for the computer-illiterate
masses. Not cool like hard-to-use CompuServe, where you had to know what you
were doing to get anything accomplished. Even on CIS, you weren't cool if
you used the menus. You were only cool if you knew dozens of two- and
three-letter commands like "rtn" to read new messages in threaded order.

No learning curve = not cool.


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Re: [CGUYS] 9500gt 512 vs 9600GSO-T2D OC 768 MB

[mike]

Price on your 9800?  I got the 9600 for 104 from a local dealer.

Mike

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 11:27 AM, Jeff Wright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > BTW, not sure if you mentioned it or I did...the 9600 can be OC to be
> > basically the same card as the 8800gt.
>
> I checked the memory chips that are on my card, which are by Samsung,
> and can be taken up to 1000 Mhz, up from the stock 900 Mhz spec.  Yes,
> the 9600 GT is performs almost as well as the 8800 Gt, but I was able
> to get a 9800 for basically the same price.
>
> > This card takes up two slots, getting to the point that even mid range
> video
> > cards like mine are half the size of the motherboard.
>
> Tell me about it.  I may have to move a hard drive to get this to fit
> and I have a full Antec tower!
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[Chris Dunford]

> Why are so many upset about stupid MP3 players?

Steve, it's not really about the MP3 players; it's about the biases of some
list members and their refusal to be rational where anything to do with
Microsoft is concerned.

If it were just about the players, I would have quit long ago. The problem
is that people come here for unbiased advice and sometimes they're not
getting it.


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Re: [CGUYS] Incoming CGUYS messages sometimes marked as spam

[David Turk]

Must be a server-level, because I have no automatic filters in my email (except 
for blocked senders).

david

David Turk
Manager, Preservation Imaging Services
Indiana Historical Society
Eugene and Marilyn Glick Indiana History Center
450 W. Ohio St.
Indianapolis, IN  46202
(317) 232-4592
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


-Original Message-
From: Computer Guys Discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeff 
Wright
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 1:48 PM
To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Incoming CGUYS messages sometimes marked as spam

> I think we covered this before, but about 1/3 of the CGUYS messages are being 
> marked with a Spam prefix in my Inbox.  Why is this?  tia.

That depends on what is being used for your spam filtering, but
something, text or something else, is triggering your filter.  Is your
spam filter at the server or desktop?  If the desktop, you'll either
need to tweak some settings or add the CGUYS to your whitelist.  If on
a server, you would need to contact your sysadmin.

Spam filtering is more art than science.  I've lost track of just how
many filters our product, Xwall, uses, but it's designed for a
multi-filter approach, as what one will miss, another will catch.
It's false positive rate is <1%, but it's a balancing act as to how
aggressive to be when filtering spam.  Too aggressive and there are
too many false positives, not aggressive enough and too much spam
slips through.

Comcast started using a filtering service that was terrible and
blocked about a 1/3 of CGUYS messages.  There was no notice nor any
way to retrieve the blocked messages.  That's a piss-poor and
amateurish way of filtering spam. I moved by CGUYS sub to Gmail and
the problem is solved.  I give everyone my gmail address now.  I don't
plan on using the Comcast address for anything important.


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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[Snyder, Mark (IT CIV)]

The life cycle of a particular laptop is about three years, no 20!  When
I say not much has changed, I mean recently and to the current crop of
laptop models.  I want an Apple (in office have new HP Compaq 8510p) -
my Apple laptop is over five years old. 

I must watch changes at a different level than you do.  I have noticed
large technology-driven changes every 1-3-5 years.  The growth of change
is indeed fast.  Consider the early PC disk drive at 10 MB!  I read lots
of tech sites and see lots of change - current products, upcoming
products and hope-to-be products.

I do not like things that become expensive to maintain.  That has been
my experience buying maintenance for customers who won't replace old
stuff.  They will pay a frighteningly large percentage of the original
purchase price each month instead buying a new product that comes with a
2-3 year warranty.  I worked with large gov. contract customers.  I
could contrast costs paid by both types.

Thank you,

Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
From: Computer Guys Discussion List
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of mike
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 2:04 PM
To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

Well..you didn't give any reasons here...just said you had reasons
gained from your experience.  I'm honestly not trying to play some game
with you,
I'm really interested in why you are backing off laptops?   If laptops
have
done little on new technology in their life cycle of say 20 years, why
do you think suddenly that will change?

You did say you don't buy things that will be unsupportable in a short
period of time in reference to ipods/zune, now you say you are sure they
will be supported by their vendors.

I haven't seen any truly new technology for...well a long time.  The
home pc has been the same for decades now, just bigger/faster/smaller
whatever, but generally the same.  What technology have you bought that
isn't based on 'old' technology?

Your assertion that earlier products are viable for longer periods?  Is
that because you assume that as technology changes it changes faster
exponentially?  I don't know, this logic would lead you to never buy
anything.  Or you would buy something assuming it would be useless in
short order.

Several bullet points I suppose then a cohesive paragraph.

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Snyder, Mark (IT CIV)
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:

> My reasons and opinions are based on over 25 years in the tech field.

> I gave you enough facts, if you have any tech experience evaluating, 
> selecting, buying, maintaining and replacing tech products.  I did not

> mean that support will disappear very soon from these vendors.  I am 
> sure MS and Apple will back up these consumer products if one buys the

> support.  It is self-evident that most products are viable for longer 
> periods of time if selected earlier in their lifecycles.  Those are my

> facts.
>
> Laptops have done little, from my point of view, on new technology.  I

> am waiting for some change (and a few reviews) before I buy.  For many

> of the reasons stated above.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Mark Snyder
> -Original Message-
> I never said I was attacked.  I'm just weary of the left handed
insults.
> How about more explanation instead of dismissals?  Your reasons for 
> not buying an ipod, that it won't be supported isn't proven out by
facts.
> When pressed we get that questioning your view is half baked.  Could 
> have just said why you suddenly think support for HD based players is 
> going to vanish.
>
> I also asked what you were waiting for in the laptop arena?  What is 
> keeping you out, what would make you go in?  A new tech that will soon

> be integrated?  Or just that laptops have been stagnate for years 
> except for the common line of bigger/better but nothing *new* ?
>
>
> **
> ***
> **  List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy

> **
> **  policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/

> **
> **
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>



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Re: [CGUYS] When AOL was ...

[Art Clemons]

> He is, however, wrong about AOL ever being cool.


AOL offered a lot more than compuserve, genie, delphi, or indeed any of
the other similar services.  It had more people, was easier to use than
any of its competitors.

Users didn't use aol for email at first, but for things like meeting
folks, getting access to more businesses than any other place using a
computer and similar considerations, it might not have been cool but it
sure was the most useful.

I have to note that AOL as a portal is likely finished, and that newbies
from AOL getting on usenet produced lots of upset on the part of some
oldtimers, it didn't bother me at all, but then again I had already seen
similar reactions as other newbies had gotten on usenet.


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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[Steve Rigby]

On Sep 23, 2008, at 1:13 PM, Snyder, Mark (IT CIV) wrote:


It is an on-topic technology discussion.  If it bores you, we do not
mind if you delete messages with this topic. However, we don't care  
for

such rude, pompous notes.  Start a more interesting topic.


  Why are so many upset about stupid MP3 players?

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] 9500gt 512 vs 9600GSO-T2D OC 768 MB

[Jeff Wright]

> BTW, not sure if you mentioned it or I did...the 9600 can be OC to be
> basically the same card as the 8800gt.

I checked the memory chips that are on my card, which are by Samsung,
and can be taken up to 1000 Mhz, up from the stock 900 Mhz spec.  Yes,
the 9600 GT is performs almost as well as the 8800 Gt, but I was able
to get a 9800 for basically the same price.

> This card takes up two slots, getting to the point that even mid range video
> cards like mine are half the size of the motherboard.

Tell me about it.  I may have to move a hard drive to get this to fit
and I have a full Antec tower!


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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[mike]

Well..you didn't give any reasons here...just said you had reasons gained
from your experience.  I'm honestly not trying to play some game with you,
I'm really interested in why you are backing off laptops?   If laptops have
done little on new technology in their life cycle of say 20 years, why do
you think suddenly that will change?

You did say you don't buy things that will be unsupportable in a short
period of time in reference to ipods/zune, now you say you are sure they
will be supported by their vendors.

I haven't seen any truly new technology for...well a long time.  The home pc
has been the same for decades now, just bigger/faster/smaller whatever, but
generally the same.  What technology have you bought that isn't based on
'old' technology?

Your assertion that earlier products are viable for longer periods?  Is that
because you assume that as technology changes it changes faster
exponentially?  I don't know, this logic would lead you to never buy
anything.  Or you would buy something assuming it would be useless in short
order.

Several bullet points I suppose then a cohesive paragraph.

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Snyder, Mark (IT CIV) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:

> My reasons and opinions are based on over 25 years in the tech field.  I
> gave you enough facts, if you have any tech experience evaluating,
> selecting, buying, maintaining and replacing tech products.  I did not
> mean that support will disappear very soon from these vendors.  I am
> sure MS and Apple will back up these consumer products if one buys the
> support.  It is self-evident that most products are viable for longer
> periods of time if selected earlier in their lifecycles.  Those are my
> facts.
>
> Laptops have done little, from my point of view, on new technology.  I
> am waiting for some change (and a few reviews) before I buy.  For many
> of the reasons stated above.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Mark Snyder
> -Original Message-
> I never said I was attacked.  I'm just weary of the left handed insults.
> How about more explanation instead of dismissals?  Your reasons for not
> buying an ipod, that it won't be supported isn't proven out by facts.
> When pressed we get that questioning your view is half baked.  Could
> have just said why you suddenly think support for HD based players is
> going to vanish.
>
> I also asked what you were waiting for in the laptop arena?  What is
> keeping you out, what would make you go in?  A new tech that will soon
> be integrated?  Or just that laptops have been stagnate for years except
> for the common line of bigger/better but nothing *new* ?
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] 9500gt 512 vs 9600GSO-T2D OC 768 MB

[mike]

BTW, not sure if you mentioned it or I did...the 9600 can be OC to be
basically the same card as the 8800gt.

This card takes up two slots, getting to the point that even mid range video
cards like mine are half the size of the motherboard.

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 10:50 AM, Jeff Wright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > Thanks for the replies, I found a OC version of the 9600gso...768 memory.
> > It seems to work pretty good, got UT3 running at full res now.  Woot!
>
> Cool!  I just got my 9800 today.  It's a big mother!  I can't wait to
> get home and try it out.
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] 9500gt 512 vs 9600GSO-T2D OC 768 MB

[Jeff Wright]

> Thanks for the replies, I found a OC version of the 9600gso...768 memory.
> It seems to work pretty good, got UT3 running at full res now.  Woot!

Cool!  I just got my 9800 today.  It's a big mother!  I can't wait to
get home and try it out.


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Re: [CGUYS] Incoming CGUYS messages sometimes marked as spam

[Jeff Wright]

> I think we covered this before, but about 1/3 of the CGUYS messages are being 
> marked with a Spam prefix in my Inbox.  Why is this?  tia.

That depends on what is being used for your spam filtering, but
something, text or something else, is triggering your filter.  Is your
spam filter at the server or desktop?  If the desktop, you'll either
need to tweak some settings or add the CGUYS to your whitelist.  If on
a server, you would need to contact your sysadmin.

Spam filtering is more art than science.  I've lost track of just how
many filters our product, Xwall, uses, but it's designed for a
multi-filter approach, as what one will miss, another will catch.
It's false positive rate is <1%, but it's a balancing act as to how
aggressive to be when filtering spam.  Too aggressive and there are
too many false positives, not aggressive enough and too much spam
slips through.

Comcast started using a filtering service that was terrible and
blocked about a 1/3 of CGUYS messages.  There was no notice nor any
way to retrieve the blocked messages.  That's a piss-poor and
amateurish way of filtering spam. I moved by CGUYS sub to Gmail and
the problem is solved.  I give everyone my gmail address now.  I don't
plan on using the Comcast address for anything important.


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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[Snyder, Mark (IT CIV)]

My reasons and opinions are based on over 25 years in the tech field.  I
gave you enough facts, if you have any tech experience evaluating,
selecting, buying, maintaining and replacing tech products.  I did not
mean that support will disappear very soon from these vendors.  I am
sure MS and Apple will back up these consumer products if one buys the
support.  It is self-evident that most products are viable for longer
periods of time if selected earlier in their lifecycles.  Those are my
facts.

Laptops have done little, from my point of view, on new technology.  I
am waiting for some change (and a few reviews) before I buy.  For many
of the reasons stated above.

Thank you,

Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
I never said I was attacked.  I'm just weary of the left handed insults.
How about more explanation instead of dismissals?  Your reasons for not
buying an ipod, that it won't be supported isn't proven out by facts.
When pressed we get that questioning your view is half baked.  Could
have just said why you suddenly think support for HD based players is
going to vanish.

I also asked what you were waiting for in the laptop arena?  What is
keeping you out, what would make you go in?  A new tech that will soon
be integrated?  Or just that laptops have been stagnate for years except
for the common line of bigger/better but nothing *new* ?


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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[Snyder, Mark (IT CIV)]

Please do not think I presume to be able to prevent you from buying what
ever you'd like.  Do not think I will disparage you over what ever
choice you make.  I was stating my opinions on tech, not about you - or
your decisions. 

Thank you,

Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
> I meant I would not buy something Apple designed 6-7 years ago and has

> really only changed the capacity of the disk drive.  I would never buy

> something using the same tech that another manufacturer just came out 
> with.

Fine, that's your point of view and you're entitled to it, but it is
YOUR point of view. Someone else may have a different point of view,
don't you think? I do not understand why someone who wants a box with
the specs I've described repeatedly should not be permitted to compare
the available boxes and then purchase the one he prefers.

But I guess 'nuff said.


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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[mike]

We're a family of brothers and sisters, in-laws and cousins and aunts and
uncles and going on 20 year neighbors..sometimes stay too long at dinner
after drinking too much.  We'll get testy and then go home, sober up and
call again another day.

Mike

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 9:44 AM, Bernie Hylton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Please shut this discussion down. It has long since sank below the
> standards of playground spat.
>
> ###
> Bernie
>
> If you have the time, isn't everywhere walking distance?
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[Snyder, Mark (IT CIV)]

It is an on-topic technology discussion.  If it bores you, we do not
mind if you delete messages with this topic. However, we don't care for
such rude, pompous notes.  Start a more interesting topic.

Thank you,

Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
Please shut this discussion down. It has long since sank below the
standards of playground spat.


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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[mike]

I never said I was attacked.  I'm just weary of the left handed insults.
How about more explanation instead of dismissals?  Your reasons for not
buying an ipod, that it won't be supported isn't proven out by facts.  When
pressed we get that questioning your view is half baked.  Could have just
said why you suddenly think support for HD based players is going to
vanish.

I also asked what you were waiting for in the laptop arena?  What is keeping
you out, what would make you go in?  A new tech that will soon be
integrated?  Or just that laptops have been stagnate for years except for
the common line of bigger/better but nothing *new* ?

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Snyder, Mark (IT CIV)
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Mike,  Don't let yourself be insulted so easily.  Half-baked was
> directed at the idea, not the person.  I am sure I have the occasional
> half-baked idea; it does not make me a half-baked person.  Same applies
> to you.  That was not an attack. Sheesh.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Mark Snyder
> -Original Message-
> What are you waiting for in the laptop arena?  What would make you buy?
>
> BTW, it's these kind of casual drive by insults that seem to propagate
> this list now.  What is the point?  I didn't insult you with my
> response..I was purposely sarcastic as I admitted, but I didn't insult
> you.  And I realize you didn't come out and say 'you are an idiot', but
> through implication the only way to read this email is that anyone who
> disagrees with you is 'half baked'.  Why can't there be a simple
> disagreement?  Why does it have to be 'I'm right and your not capable of
> thinking clearly' ?
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[Chris Dunford]

>> But more importantly, you really ignored what I said, to wit, if what
>> you want is a lot of storage, or if you can't afford a Touch, then
>> there's no choice except between Classic and Zune. You choose one of
>> those, or nothing.
>
> I meant I would not buy something Apple designed 6-7 years ago and 
> has really only changed the capacity of the disk drive.  I would 
> never buy something using the same tech that another manufacturer 
> just came out with.

Fine, that's your point of view and you're entitled to it, but it is YOUR
point of view. Someone else may have a different point of view, don't you
think? I do not understand why someone who wants a box with the specs I've
described repeatedly should not be permitted to compare the available boxes
and then purchase the one he prefers.

But I guess 'nuff said.


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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[Bernie Hylton]

Please shut this discussion down. It has long since sank below the standards of 
playground spat.

###
Bernie

If you have the time, isn't everywhere walking distance?


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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[Snyder, Mark (IT CIV)]

Mike,  Don't let yourself be insulted so easily.  Half-baked was
directed at the idea, not the person.  I am sure I have the occasional
half-baked idea; it does not make me a half-baked person.  Same applies
to you.  That was not an attack. Sheesh.

Thank you,

Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
What are you waiting for in the laptop arena?  What would make you buy?

BTW, it's these kind of casual drive by insults that seem to propagate
this list now.  What is the point?  I didn't insult you with my
response..I was purposely sarcastic as I admitted, but I didn't insult
you.  And I realize you didn't come out and say 'you are an idiot', but
through implication the only way to read this email is that anyone who
disagrees with you is 'half baked'.  Why can't there be a simple
disagreement?  Why does it have to be 'I'm right and your not capable of
thinking clearly' ?


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Re: [CGUYS] 9500gt 512 vs 9600GSO-T2D OC 768 MB

[mike]

Thanks for the replies, I found a OC version of the 9600gso...768 memory.
It seems to work pretty good, got UT3 running at full res now.  Woot!

Mike

On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Jeff Wright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I ended up getting an Asus GeForce 9800GT card from Newegg, that has a
> Zalman-like cooler on it.  After rebate, it was only $10 more ($109) than
> the oc'd Asus 9600GT card and came with free shipping, unlike the 9600, so
> that made it a no-brainer for me.
>
> The GSO cards are in a weird zone.  They aren't true 9600 cards and I've
> read that they're re-marked 8800GS cards, which didn't sell too well.  More
> stream processors, but lower freqs than the 9600GT.
>
> I had ordered the $70 (+$10 shipping) 9600GT from Zipzoomfly, but ended up
> cancelling it as I wasn't sure if the 2-slot cooler would fit and I wasn't
> too sure about how quiet it was.  It's a big card.  The Asus card got good
> reviews on noise, which is important to me.  I can't stand the fan whine of
> the stock coolers.
>
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121268
>
> The 9800GT is just a re-vamped 8800GT with some minor improvements, which
> is
> considered to be the king budget card right now.  But, I'm seeing the 9800
> for less than the 8800.  In the end, though, almost anything you get today
> will be an improvement over the 7950.
>
> > -Original Message-
> > Oops, I turned your 9's into 8's.
> >
> > The 9600GT is a nice card from everything that I've read.  Tom's
> > Hardware put its overall performance only 12% under the 8800GT, despite
> having
> > only half the stream processors.  Google it a bit, but I would wave off
> > the 9500 for only 20 bucks.  Zipzoomfly has an 512MB EVGA 9600GT for
> > $70 after rebate.
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > My 7950 went out recently and I have a choice between the two cards
> > > above for cost reasons.  The 9500gt is 85 bux, I have it now in my
> > > box and it seems to run just fine...but I've been considering returning
> it
> > > because the 9600 is about 20 bux more.  Would I notice any real
> difference?
> > > I don't care about eeking out every bit of framerate I can in the
> > > newest game, I just would like to be able to pop a game in once in
> awhile without
> > > problems.  Any feedback on this would be appreciated.  I'm not a
> serious
> gamer
> > > by any means but I'll play UT3 once in awhile and some crysis.
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[mike]

What are you waiting for in the laptop arena?  What would make you buy?

BTW, it's these kind of casual drive by insults that seem to propagate this
list now.  What is the point?  I didn't insult you with my response..I was
purposely sarcastic as I admitted, but I didn't insult you.  And I realize
you didn't come out and say 'you are an idiot', but through implication the
only way to read this email is that anyone who disagrees with you is 'half
baked'.  Why can't there be a simple disagreement?  Why does it have to be
'I'm right and your not capable of thinking clearly' ?

Mike

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 8:56 AM, Snyder, Mark (IT CIV)
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> I want to take advantage of as much current, fully-supported product as
> I can, so I would want at least five of those 6-7 years.  At the moment
> I am waiting on a laptop because right now, my evaluations say buy
> nothing now.
>
> I have watched technologies change, in every detail I could muster for
> contract buying reasons, for over 20 years.  I don't buy on half-baked,
> casual decisions.  You may do it any way that pleases you.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Mark Snyder
> -Original Message-
> So what are you using in place of computers?  They were designed a lot
> longer ago then the first ipod.  Yes I'm being sarcastic but to make a
> point.  It might be obsolete tech to you, but to most people it's not.
>
> The fact that those iPods designed as you said 6 or 7 years ago are
> still working and interacting the way they were designed to do so with
> the systems they were designed for, as well as the newest macs makes
> your point...less pointed.
>
> What about cell phones?  You only buy cell phones from the company that
> manufactured the first cell phone?  Of course not.
>
>
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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[Snyder, Mark (IT CIV)]

I want to take advantage of as much current, fully-supported product as
I can, so I would want at least five of those 6-7 years.  At the moment
I am waiting on a laptop because right now, my evaluations say buy
nothing now.

I have watched technologies change, in every detail I could muster for
contract buying reasons, for over 20 years.  I don't buy on half-baked,
casual decisions.  You may do it any way that pleases you.

Thank you,

Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
So what are you using in place of computers?  They were designed a lot
longer ago then the first ipod.  Yes I'm being sarcastic but to make a
point.  It might be obsolete tech to you, but to most people it's not.

The fact that those iPods designed as you said 6 or 7 years ago are
still working and interacting the way they were designed to do so with
the systems they were designed for, as well as the newest macs makes
your point...less pointed.

What about cell phones?  You only buy cell phones from the company that
manufactured the first cell phone?  Of course not.


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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[mike]

Well the constant name calling and abuse from you to people who don't agree
with you does not help.  Treat those as you wish to be treated.

On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 4:22 PM, Tom Piwowar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>
> I would not belabor the point except for the days of attacks,
> disinformation, name calling, rude language, and other abuse heaped on
> me. Instead of responding with facts and logic the response of many (but
> not all) was just a bald assertion repeated over and over that I was
> wrong. Acting badly instead of getting the facts right and making a
> logical case for one's contrary opinion is disrespectful of all the list
> members.
>
>


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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[mike]

So what are you using in place of computers?  They were designed a lot
longer ago then the first ipod.  Yes I'm being sarcastic but to make a
point.  It might be obsolete tech to you, but to most people it's not.

The fact that those iPods designed as you said 6 or 7 years ago are still
working and interacting the way they were designed to do so with the systems
they were designed for, as well as the newest macs makes your point...less
pointed.

What about cell phones?  You only buy cell phones from the company that
manufactured the first cell phone?  Of course not.

Mike

On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 8:22 AM, Snyder, Mark (IT CIV)
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> I do sometimes choose nothing, if I don't care to pay for new
> technology.  I wait for it to come down a bit.  I meant I would not buy
> something Apple designed 6-7 years ago and has really only changed the
> capacity of the disk drive.  I would never buy something using the same
> tech that another manufacturer just came out with.
>
> I would never have been the last Betamax buyer.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Mark Snyder
> -Original Message-
> > I do not buy tech things that will be unsupportable in a short period
> > of time.
>
> There's no basis for saying that MS is going to drop support for this
> "in a short period of time". In fact, considering that the 120GB unit is
> brand new, it's unlikely in the extreme. The same goes for Apple's 120GB
> model.
>
> But more importantly, you really ignored what I said, to wit, if what
> you want is a lot of storage, or if you can't afford a Touch, then
> there's no choice except between Classic and Zune. You choose one of
> those, or nothing.
>
>
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[CGUYS] Incoming CGUYS messages sometimes marked as spam

[David Turk]

I think we covered this before, but about 1/3 of the CGUYS messages are being 
marked with a Spam prefix in my Inbox.  Why is this?  tia.

david

David Turk
Manager, Preservation Imaging Services
Indiana Historical Society
Eugene and Marilyn Glick Indiana History Center
450 W. Ohio St.
Indianapolis, IN  46202
(317) 232-4592
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[Snyder, Mark (IT CIV)]

I do sometimes choose nothing, if I don't care to pay for new
technology.  I wait for it to come down a bit.  I meant I would not buy
something Apple designed 6-7 years ago and has really only changed the
capacity of the disk drive.  I would never buy something using the same
tech that another manufacturer just came out with. 

I would never have been the last Betamax buyer.

Thank you,

Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
> I do not buy tech things that will be unsupportable in a short period 
> of time.

There's no basis for saying that MS is going to drop support for this
"in a short period of time". In fact, considering that the 120GB unit is
brand new, it's unlikely in the extreme. The same goes for Apple's 120GB
model.

But more importantly, you really ignored what I said, to wit, if what
you want is a lot of storage, or if you can't afford a Touch, then
there's no choice except between Classic and Zune. You choose one of
those, or nothing.


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Re: [CGUYS] A Small Non-profit speaks (Was Why Small business's and Non_profits buy PC's)

[Constance Warner]

I'm a "survivor" of a contrary case: Mac to PC.  The nonprofit where I
work was an all-Mac workplace, except for a few PC's that ran specific
applications.  When we got new management, they switched to PC's as soon
as they could get the funding to do it.  They kept telling us that we
had so many applications that they wanted to run that would not run on
Macs (which wasn't true; the one critical application, a membership
database, ran as well on Mac as on PC, with the aid of a few simple
modifications).  We now use the standard office apps that we had on
Macs.  If there's anything that we now use that won't run on a Mac, I
haven't heard of it.

When I protested that PC's were more subject to malware, I was basically
told "Don't you worry your pretty little head about that." 

Why did they throw away the Macs and switch to Windows?  Because to
Management, most of whom are not computer mavens (even when they think
they are), Windows is "natural" (like being right-handed, as 90% + of
humans are).  But Mac is a "mutation" (like being left-handed, or having
perfect pitch, or being able to hold your breath for more than 3
minutes), and thus strange, wild and dangerous; certainly not something
that a "normal" person should have to cope with.  Windows is "I Love
Lucy"; Mac is a foreign film in black and white with subtitles.  You're
born knowing Windows; you have to learn Mac.  This may sound strange;
but it's what our Management felt.

I tried to fight it, but in the end I lost.  You can't fight feelings
with logic.

--Constance Warner

From: Computer Guys Discussion List
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen Brownfield
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 9:04 PM
To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Subject: [CGUYS] A Small Non-profit speaks (Was Why Small business's and
Non_profits buy PC's)

  Since my wife and run a small non-profit on the side, I thought 
that I should speak up.  We use Macs!  We had Macs before we started the

non-profit, so why should we buy a PC.  In the early days we had to run 
softwindows because our accountant wanted us to use "QuickBooks" and the

Mac version could not be saved as a Windows file.  Once we could save 
our Mac "QuickBooks" as a Windows file there was no need for 
SoftWindows.  (I do now have Virtual PC on my G4,  just in case someone 
sends us an Access or Publisher file.)
My point is that I think it is what kind of computer, the person 
starting/running the small business/non-profit is comfortable with that 
they use.  I would not be surprised if the brake down for small 
non-profits is similar to the brake down for the general public for the 
type of computer used.

Steve



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Re: [CGUYS] When AOL was ...

[Snyder, Mark (IT CIV)]

Chris,

I suspect it was cool for folks who needed what AOL provided.  As
someone who got his first email account in the 1980's and first used a
browser sometime around 1992, I do understand why you'd say it was never
cool.  I don't think AOL was ever cool to the techies.

Thank you,

Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
> Don't you mean to say "before broadband"?

No, Tom is RIGHT.  :)

In Olden Tymes, AOL (like CompuServe) was a service unto itself, not
connected to the Internet. When you went to AOL, there was nowhere else
to go. And if you had an AOL account and your buddy had a CompuServe
account, you used the phone to talk to him because there was no email
between the two services.
 
He is, however, wrong about AOL ever being cool.


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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[Chris Dunford]

> I do not buy tech things that will be unsupportable in a short period
> of time.

There's no basis for saying that MS is going to drop support for this "in a
short period of time". In fact, considering that the 120GB unit is brand
new, it's unlikely in the extreme. The same goes for Apple's 120GB model.

But more importantly, you really ignored what I said, to wit, if what you
want is a lot of storage, or if you can't afford a Touch, then there's no
choice except between Classic and Zune. You choose one of those, or nothing.


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Re: [CGUYS] When AOL was ...

[Chris Dunford]

> Don't you mean to say "before broadband"?

No, Tom is RIGHT.  :)

In Olden Tymes, AOL (like CompuServe) was a service unto itself, not
connected to the Internet. When you went to AOL, there was nowhere else to
go. And if you had an AOL account and your buddy had a CompuServe account,
you used the phone to talk to him because there was no email between the two
services.
 
He is, however, wrong about AOL ever being cool.


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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[Snyder, Mark (IT CIV)]

I do not buy tech things that will be unsupportable in a short period of
time.  I do not think older technologies are generally worth pursuing.
The hardware breaks sooner.  The software stops working with the new
hardware sooner, and also with new software.  These are all general
truths.  Maybe you don't see them because all of your models of
comparison involve Microsoft? 

Thank you,

Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
> It should be obvious that if one model is 6-7 years old, and one is 
> new, buy the new one.

I'm sorry, but that is not at all obvious. What if you want a lot of
storage? You have to get the newer product anyway, because it's newer?
Even though it's much more expensive? Buying something that is more
expensive and not what you want simply because it's newer seems just,
well, silly.

Incidentally, your axiom doesn't seem to apply to XP and Vista as far as
a number of people on this list are concerned. There have been plenty of
posts discussing how to get new machines with XP, which is now 7 years
old. I don't want to get into another XP/Vista discussion; the point is
that newer is not always better in all users' opinions.


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[CGUYS] When AOL was ...

[Matthew Taylor]

Tom;

Don't you mean to say "before broadband"?

Matthew

On Sep 22, 2008, at 7:34 PM, Tom Piwowar wrote:


Wasn't AOL referred to as the "internet on training wheels"???


Once again. The spread of Internet access changed the game for AOL.
Before the Internet, AOL was the one who got it right. AOL was cool.  
AOL

was the best place to go for online activity.



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Re: [CGUYS] DTV channel assignments

[Steve Rigby]

On Sep 23, 2008, at 9:52 AM, Tony B wrote:


Anyway, aside from the funny numbers, the lesson maybe to be learned
here is that, despite the fact UHF antennas are being sold today for
DTV reception, after the shutoff we may very well still need VHF
antennas. Or not, because in the city even a UHF antenna would likely
pick up strong VHF signals.


  There were plenty of admonitions to TV viewers to simply continue  
using their current antenna systems to view DTV programs as opposed to  
scrapping them in favor of rushing out and buying UHV antennas being  
hawked by retailers as "digital" television antennas.


  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[Chris Dunford]

> It should be obvious that if one model is 6-7 years old, and one is
> new, buy the new one.

I'm sorry, but that is not at all obvious. What if you want a lot of
storage? You have to get the newer product anyway, because it's newer? Even
though it's much more expensive? Buying something that is more expensive and
not what you want simply because it's newer seems just, well, silly.

Incidentally, your axiom doesn't seem to apply to XP and Vista as far as a
number of people on this list are concerned. There have been plenty of posts
discussing how to get new machines with XP, which is now 7 years old. I
don't want to get into another XP/Vista discussion; the point is that newer
is not always better in all users' opinions.


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[CGUYS] DTV channel assignments

[Tony B]

An article in TV Technology this week has some interesting news
regarding channels after the DTV changeover. Sorry, no links, but I'll
try to summarize.

All stations currently transmitting DTV are using UHF frequencies, and
that's pretty much all full power stations at this point, at least in
all the larger cities. But, come the analog shut off date of Feb. 17,
2009, the FCC will allow stations to claim any of the VHF frequencies
for their DTV signals. presumably on a first come basis(?).

The author downloaded a list of applicants so far and the results are
well, interesting. Note: VHF is actually two separate bands of
frequencies: Low (ch 2-6) and High (ch 7-13).

As of press time, 452 stations (25% of all stations) had applied to
occupy the high VHF channels. Channel 13 (77 stations) is the most
popular request, followed by ch 7 (69).

Only 36 stations have opted to remain in the interference plagued Low
VHF (channel 1 was so bad they dropped it in the early days of TV). 15
have gone with ch 5, the least popular is 4 (with only 1 station).
Channels 2 & 3 have 6 stations each.

Anyway, aside from the funny numbers, the lesson maybe to be learned
here is that, despite the fact UHF antennas are being sold today for
DTV reception, after the shutoff we may very well still need VHF
antennas. Or not, because in the city even a UHF antenna would likely
pick up strong VHF signals.


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Re: [CGUYS] Amiga!!!

[Tony B]

I'm reluctantly willing to give that it's alive, but at this point who
the f cares? :)


On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 9:21 AM, Steve Rigby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It's alive!: Ars reviews AmigaOS 4.1
>
> http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/amigaos41-ars.ars


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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[Snyder, Mark (IT CIV)]

I would not buy either one at this point; both are obsolete. I do not
like buying obsolete tech.

Thank you,

Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
> So, my point is that comparing the latest Zune, the most advanced 
> product from MS, to the classic is pointless.  Apple designed it 6-7 
> years ago.  The only updates to it are basically drive capacity.  It 
> is a product near its end of life and Apple won't have it around a 
> whole lot longer.  I mean, I'd be embarrassed to make that kind of 
> comparison.

You'd be embarrassed to not pay a $100-$180 price premium for what
amounts to an interface and far less storage?  That's a might low, and
strange, threshold. Status quo for snobbery, I suppose.

I want space to store all of my music, which currently is hovering
around the 30 GB mark and growing.  I don't want to play the "which do I
listen to today?" shuffle so I can squeeze part of it onto a flash
player.  The hard disk is the best option for me, today.  If flash
players expand to fill that need at a competitive price, that's fine by
me.


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[CGUYS] Amiga!!!

[Steve Rigby]

It's alive!: Ars reviews AmigaOS 4.1

http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/amigaos41-ars.ars




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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[Snyder, Mark (IT CIV)]

It should be obvious that if one model is 6-7 years old, and one is new,
buy the new one.  Except a new product that is so similar to one that is
6-7 years old is pathetic. 

 YES _ I READ POSTS I RESPOND TO. 

Thank you,

Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
> So, my point is that comparing the latest Zune, the most advanced 
> product from MS, to the classic is pointless.  Apple designed it 6-7 
> years ago.  The only updates to it are basically drive capacity.  It 
> is a product near its end of life and Apple won't have it around a 
> whole lot longer.  I mean, I'd be embarrassed to make that kind of 
> comparison.

I'm sorry, but didn't you read -any- of the posts where I pointed out
that if, for whatever reason, you want a box with a decent screen size
and lots of storage, as my son did, Apple doesn't make anything else?
What exactly is embarrassing about saying that IF this is the kind of
box you want, then the Zune is the better choice?


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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[Jeff Wright]

> So, my point is that comparing the latest Zune, the most advanced
> product from MS, to the classic is pointless.  Apple designed it 6-7
> years ago.  The only updates to it are basically drive capacity.  It is
> a product near its end of life and Apple won't have it around a whole
> lot longer.  I mean, I'd be embarrassed to make that kind of
> comparison.

You'd be embarrassed to not pay a $100-$180 price premium for what amounts
to an interface and far less storage?  That's a might low, and strange,
threshold. Status quo for snobbery, I suppose.

I want space to store all of my music, which currently is hovering around
the 30 GB mark and growing.  I don't want to play the "which do I listen to
today?" shuffle so I can squeeze part of it onto a flash player.  The hard
disk is the best option for me, today.  If flash players expand to fill that
need at a competitive price, that's fine by me.


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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[Chris Dunford]

> So, my point is that comparing the latest Zune, the most advanced
> product from MS, to the classic is pointless.  Apple designed it 6-7
> years ago.  The only updates to it are basically drive capacity.  It is
> a product near its end of life and Apple won't have it around a whole
> lot longer.  I mean, I'd be embarrassed to make that kind of
> comparison.

I'm sorry, but didn't you read -any- of the posts where I pointed out that
if, for whatever reason, you want a box with a decent screen size and lots
of storage, as my son did, Apple doesn't make anything else? What exactly is
embarrassing about saying that IF this is the kind of box you want, then the
Zune is the better choice?


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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[Snyder, Mark (IT CIV)]

So, my point is that comparing the latest Zune, the most advanced
product from MS, to the classic is pointless.  Apple designed it 6-7
years ago.  The only updates to it are basically drive capacity.  It is
a product near its end of life and Apple won't have it around a whole
lot longer.  I mean, I'd be embarrassed to make that kind of comparison.

Thank you,

Mark Snyder
-Original Message-
On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Snyder, Mark wrote:

> You are _still_ comparing the latest model from MS to a very old model

> from Apple.  Why are you doing that?  What is the point?
>
> No he is right on the 120gb being the only current harddrive based
iPod.
Apple discontinued the 160 gb and the 80 gb and replaced them with the
120 gb when they announced the new models a few weeks ago.


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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[Jeff Wright]

> I would not belabor the point except for the days of attacks,
> disinformation, name calling, rude language, and other abuse heaped on
> me. Instead of responding with facts and logic the response of many
> (but not all) was just a bald assertion repeated over and over that I was
> wrong. Acting badly instead of getting the facts right and making a
> logical case for one's contrary opinion is disrespectful of all the
> list members.

You poor, poor thing.  Yes, I can see now that you are the victim in all of
this.  

I believe De Niro as Capone made a similar speech in "The Untouchables."

> Yes, I make my points strongly. Yes, I may be snarky about it. But I am
> careful to get my facts straight and to provide explainations and
> supporting examples.

Forgetting the fact that your premise was false and flawed on its face and
you simply de- and re-constructed the language so that your facts would fit
your conclusion.  You presented no logic; only demagoguery.  SOP.


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Re: [CGUYS] Zune [was: iTunes 8 causing BSOD]

[John Duncan Yoyo]

On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Snyder, Mark (IT CIV)
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> You are _still_ comparing the latest model from MS to a very old model
> from Apple.  Why are you doing that?  What is the point?
>
> No he is right on the 120gb being the only current harddrive based iPod.
Apple discontinued the 160 gb and the 80 gb and replaced them with the 120
gb when they announced the new models a few weeks ago.

-- 
John Duncan Yoyo
---o)


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