Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
What is YSTOR? Linda On Tuesday, June 23, 2020, 03:11:42 PM PDT, Marion via CoTyroneList wrote: Elwyn Thanks again for all your explanations and insight which have helped me understand this topic more clearly. The journals I mentioned cover similar topics to the book you described and I have been able to access them through YSTOR which is free at the moment. I have already downloaded ‘Bob was a Protestant horse’ onto my kindle and am looking forward to reading it. I always expect an interesting response to my queries from you and am never disappointed. Ron Thanks to you too for your perspective on illegitimacy and the way people tend to be supportive in these circumstances. Its strange that no one in my family knew that my grandfather was illegitimate till I started delving into the past! I am grateful to everyone who has contributed to this discussion and really appreciate the forum the mailing list provides. Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
I've just downloaded "Bob was a Protestant Horse" and I notice a few similarities to my early days: * It's set near Cookstown, just north of Dungannon where my ancestors came from (or is it 'from whence my ancestors came'? :) ) * There's a Wilkinson farm just up the road. That's my name, but not my farm. There are many Wilkinsons in that general area. Mine moved to Belfast in the late 19thC. * I too spent several summers, in the '40s up to 1948 when we emigrated, on family friend Robinson's Farm in Hillsborough, Co. Down, as a child. Dad was works manager of Patrick & Wilkinson, an agricultural machinery manufacturer in Belfast, and I'd often accompany him on trips where he'd try to sell tractors to farmers. Sometimes successfully, but draught horses were common then. * The farm's description brings back fond memories of those farming days. I do remember the cold mornings, running barefoot all the time, collecting eggs, keeping away from the geese, and harvesting time in the fields when the 'ladies' would ply us 'workers' with ploughmens lunches. What a lovely whimsical story I have yet to read in full. Gordon On 24/06/2020 10:02 am, Gordon Wilkinson via CoTyroneList wrote: Elwyn, Don't for one moment think Handfasting is obsolete. My Irish cousin (of mature years) 'Handfasted' a few years ago in true Druid fashion to his 3rd wife. Although married in Oz they traveled to the UK to visit Liverpool relatives (from Armagh) and for their Handfasting. I have the video and it was a moving ceremony. Some of these Druid traditions still persist. In this case I think the Handfasting came after the marriage. ;-) Gordon On 24/06/2020 4:45 am, elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList wrote: Peter, I have come across “buckle the beggar” but not buckleberry. It looks to be a term that must have come to Ulster with the Scots, as many of our local words did. I have never heard it used in Ulster but it seems as though it was at one time because I can see a couple of references on the net. In the Scottish National Dictionary it says: *buckle-beggar*, *buckle-the-beggars*, “one who marries others in a clandestine and disorderly manner” (Sc. 1808 Jam.) It reminds me a little of another form of marriage known as “handfasting.” This was particularly common in the Scottish Borders in the 1500s & early 1600s, where there were very few Priests or Ministers due to the whole place being basically lawless. Such clerics as there were usually had to have a peel tower (similar to a bawn in Ulster) to retreat to if attacked. So it was hard to get a Priest or a Minister to marry you. Quoting from Godfrey Watsons’ book ”The Border Reivers[1] <#_ftn1>” (publ 1974) p 180: “..if a priest was perhaps available only once a year, a problem inevitably arose for those who wished to get married out of season, as it were. The answer was ‘handfasting.’ This was a custom whereby a couple would live together till the book-a-bosom man could bless their union. The arrangement was for a trial period of one year (unless the parson appeared earlier), after which it became permanent. If, before then, one or other wanted to bring the arrangement to an end, he or she must accept responsibility for any children of the union, in which case they were still regarded as legitimate. There is still in existence an old genealogy of the Elliots of Lariston, which refers to “Simon of Benks who handfasted or took for a trial a bastard daughter of the said Gibbie with the Golden Garters on condition he should pay her a considerable tocher[2] <#_ftn2> in case he was not pleased with her.” Normally handfasting required no dowry, and this idea of making second hand goods more marriageable may well have been restricted to the gentry, who appear to have handfasted in the same way as anyone else. John, Lord Maxwell, for instance was contracted thus to a sister of the Earl of Angus. Nobody in the Borders seems to have worried very much about children being born out of wedlock, and there are countless examples of natural[3] <#_ftn3> children figuring openly in men’s wills.” Isn’t “Gibbie with the Golden Garters” a wonderful name? ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY -- _ Nereda & Gordon Wilkinson, Hyde Park, South Australia. Web: www.ozemail.com.au/~neredon Skype id: neredon Emails: gordon.wilkin...@ozemail.com.aunereda.wilkin...@ozemail.com.au ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
Elwyn, Don't for one moment think Handfasting is obsolete. My Irish cousin (of mature years) 'Handfasted' a few years ago in true Druid fashion to his 3rd wife. Although married in Oz they traveled to the UK to visit Liverpool relatives (from Armagh) and for their Handfasting. I have the video and it was a moving ceremony. Some of these Druid traditions still persist. In this case I think the Handfasting came after the marriage. ;-) Gordon On 24/06/2020 4:45 am, elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList wrote: Peter, I have come across “buckle the beggar” but not buckleberry. It looks to be a term that must have come to Ulster with the Scots, as many of our local words did. I have never heard it used in Ulster but it seems as though it was at one time because I can see a couple of references on the net. In the Scottish National Dictionary it says: *buckle-beggar*, *buckle-the-beggars*, “one who marries others in a clandestine and disorderly manner” (Sc. 1808 Jam.) It reminds me a little of another form of marriage known as “handfasting.” This was particularly common in the Scottish Borders in the 1500s & early 1600s, where there were very few Priests or Ministers due to the whole place being basically lawless. Such clerics as there were usually had to have a peel tower (similar to a bawn in Ulster) to retreat to if attacked. So it was hard to get a Priest or a Minister to marry you. Quoting from Godfrey Watsons’ book ”The Border Reivers[1] <#_ftn1>” (publ 1974) p 180: “..if a priest was perhaps available only once a year, a problem inevitably arose for those who wished to get married out of season, as it were. The answer was ‘handfasting.’ This was a custom whereby a couple would live together till the book-a-bosom man could bless their union. The arrangement was for a trial period of one year (unless the parson appeared earlier), after which it became permanent. If, before then, one or other wanted to bring the arrangement to an end, he or she must accept responsibility for any children of the union, in which case they were still regarded as legitimate. There is still in existence an old genealogy of the Elliots of Lariston, which refers to “Simon of Benks who handfasted or took for a trial a bastard daughter of the said Gibbie with the Golden Garters on condition he should pay her a considerable tocher[2] <#_ftn2> in case he was not pleased with her.” Normally handfasting required no dowry, and this idea of making second hand goods more marriageable may well have been restricted to the gentry, who appear to have handfasted in the same way as anyone else. John, Lord Maxwell, for instance was contracted thus to a sister of the Earl of Angus. Nobody in the Borders seems to have worried very much about children being born out of wedlock, and there are countless examples of natural[3] <#_ftn3> children figuring openly in men’s wills.” Isn’t “Gibbie with the Golden Garters” a wonderful name? ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
Elwyn Thanks again for all your explanations and insight which have helped me understand this topic more clearly. The journals I mentioned cover similar topics to the book you described and I have been able to access them through YSTOR which is free at the moment. I have already downloaded ‘Bob was a Protestant horse’ onto my kindle and am looking forward to reading it. I always expect an interesting response to my queries from you and am never disappointed. Ron Thanks to you too for your perspective on illegitimacy and the way people tend to be supportive in these circumstances. Its strange that no one in my family knew that my grandfather was illegitimate till I started delving into the past! I am grateful to everyone who has contributed to this discussion and really appreciate the forum the mailing list provides. Regards Marion Sent from Mail for Windows 10 ___ CoTyroneList Mailing List Mailing List Email Address: CoTyroneList@cotyroneireland.com Change Your Preferences: http://cotyroneireland.com/mailman/listinfo/cotyronelist_cotyroneireland.com Mailing List Archive: https://goo.gl/mQCKrY
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
Peter, I have come across “buckle the beggar” but not buckleberry. It looks to be a term that must have come to Ulster with the Scots, as many of our local words did. I have never heard it used in Ulster but it seems as though it was at one time because I can see a couple of references on the net. In the Scottish National Dictionary it says: *buckle-beggar*, *buckle-the-beggars*, “one who marries others in a clandestine and disorderly manner” (Sc. 1808 Jam.) It reminds me a little of another form of marriage known as “handfasting.” This was particularly common in the Scottish Borders in the 1500s & early 1600s, where there were very few Priests or Ministers due to the whole place being basically lawless. Such clerics as there were usually had to have a peel tower (similar to a bawn in Ulster) to retreat to if attacked. So it was hard to get a Priest or a Minister to marry you. Quoting from Godfrey Watsons’ book ”The Border Reivers[1] <#_ftn1>” (publ 1974) p 180: “..if a priest was perhaps available only once a year, a problem inevitably arose for those who wished to get married out of season, as it were. The answer was ‘handfasting.’ This was a custom whereby a couple would live together till the book-a-bosom man could bless their union. The arrangement was for a trial period of one year (unless the parson appeared earlier), after which it became permanent. If, before then, one or other wanted to bring the arrangement to an end, he or she must accept responsibility for any children of the union, in which case they were still regarded as legitimate. There is still in existence an old genealogy of the Elliots of Lariston, which refers to “Simon of Benks who handfasted or took for a trial a bastard daughter of the said Gibbie with the Golden Garters on condition he should pay her a considerable tocher[2] <#_ftn2> in case he was not pleased with her.” Normally handfasting required no dowry, and this idea of making second hand goods more marriageable may well have been restricted to the gentry, who appear to have handfasted in the same way as anyone else. John, Lord Maxwell, for instance was contracted thus to a sister of the Earl of Angus. Nobody in the Borders seems to have worried very much about children being born out of wedlock, and there are countless examples of natural[3] <#_ftn3> children figuring openly in men’s wills.” Isn’t “Gibbie with the Golden Garters” a wonderful name? Elwyn -- [1] <#_ftnref1> Reiver = thief (robber) [2] <#_ftnref2> dowry [3] <#_ftnref3> illegitimate On Tue, 23 Jun 2020 at 13:39, Peter Sinclair wrote: > I must thank Elwyn for his very interesting texts about marriage and > children born out of wedlock (lovely term 'wedlock', with all it implies!). > There is another term I have come across during my research into the > Sinclair families in Cos. Armagh, Tyrone and Monaghan: 'buckle-the-beggar' > or 'buckleberry' marriage. Apparently this was marrying after the birth of > children and was accepted by the Presbyterian and Roman Catholic churches, > but not by the Church of Ireland (presumably before 1845). If Elwyn has any > more information about this I know I would be interested. > > Peter > > please don't print this email unless you really need to > > -Original Message- > From: CoTyroneList On Behalf > Of elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList > Sent: 22 June 2020 22:49 > To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List > Cc: elwyn soutter > Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs > > Marion, > > > > Sorry you can’t find Connell’s book. It is fairly old (1950) and may not > be on-line anywhere. I think I found a copy in the Linenhall Library in > Belfast and photocopied a couple of dozen pages. The book looks at Ireland > as a whole and I am not sure if every custom reported there was necessarily > represented in Tyrone, and especially by Ulster-Scots, but it’s obviously a > useful background on marriage practices in Ireland in general. > > > > There are detailed references to arranged marriages but it is also clear > that many were not arranged. (Connell distinguishes between what he called > arranged and customary marriages). Not every bride had a dowry. And there > were some that were perhaps half way between. “John Kerrigan, a Mayo > farmer, told the Poor Inquiry Commission that: “It is not always the > father’s fault that his children get married too soon; sometimes the father > suffers more than the child. I was a comfortable man, and had 4 cows and a > heifer, till my daughter got married, and played me a trick that a good > many girls have done before: she ran off with a young man and, after a > week’s sport, he sent her back without having married her. She never > stopped at me, saying that he wouldn’t take her without a fortune, until I > was forced to give her three of my cows, and money besides; moreover I had > to pay the priest.’” (Page 56). > > > > My own view is that arranged marriages were
Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs
I must thank Elwyn for his very interesting texts about marriage and children born out of wedlock (lovely term 'wedlock', with all it implies!). There is another term I have come across during my research into the Sinclair families in Cos. Armagh, Tyrone and Monaghan: 'buckle-the-beggar' or 'buckleberry' marriage. Apparently this was marrying after the birth of children and was accepted by the Presbyterian and Roman Catholic churches, but not by the Church of Ireland (presumably before 1845). If Elwyn has any more information about this I know I would be interested. Peter please don't print this email unless you really need to -Original Message- From: CoTyroneList On Behalf Of elwyn soutter via CoTyroneList Sent: 22 June 2020 22:49 To: CoTyroneIreland.com Mailing List Cc: elwyn soutter Subject: Re: [CoTyroneMailingList] Marriage Customs Marion, Sorry you can’t find Connell’s book. It is fairly old (1950) and may not be on-line anywhere. I think I found a copy in the Linenhall Library in Belfast and photocopied a couple of dozen pages. The book looks at Ireland as a whole and I am not sure if every custom reported there was necessarily represented in Tyrone, and especially by Ulster-Scots, but it’s obviously a useful background on marriage practices in Ireland in general. There are detailed references to arranged marriages but it is also clear that many were not arranged. (Connell distinguishes between what he called arranged and customary marriages). Not every bride had a dowry. And there were some that were perhaps half way between. “John Kerrigan, a Mayo farmer, told the Poor Inquiry Commission that: “It is not always the father’s fault that his children get married too soon; sometimes the father suffers more than the child. I was a comfortable man, and had 4 cows and a heifer, till my daughter got married, and played me a trick that a good many girls have done before: she ran off with a young man and, after a week’s sport, he sent her back without having married her. She never stopped at me, saying that he wouldn’t take her without a fortune, until I was forced to give her three of my cows, and money besides; moreover I had to pay the priest.’” (Page 56). My own view is that arranged marriages were mostly linked to retaining property, and so were of great relevance to farmers but largely irrelevant to labourers and others with few assets (ie the greater part of the population). What you say about your Urney relatives marrying other local farmers was I think fairly common. Until the arrival of the bicycle in rural Ireland in the 1860s most travel, and consequently most courtship, was done on foot. Whilst they were much fitter than most of us today, and could easily travel 15 or 20 miles a day, at the same time they were needed on the farm most of the time and so courting someone who lived say 30 miles away was almost impossible (save for folk whose occupations involved a bit of travel eg soldiers, policemen, stonemasons etc). My wife comes from Co. Fermanagh. Her ancestors all married locally and in a history of her parish (Galloon) a local author said that that in the 1800s it was normal to marry within an “an asses bark of where you lived.” I suppose an asses bark can be heard for about half a mile or so. So you often married someone close to you. The girl next door perhaps? Just as today, family pressures in many households would be to marry someone deemed suitable. So a farmer would want his children to marry another farmer’s children and not a labourer’s. A Church of Ireland – Presbyterian marriage wouldn't raise any eyebrows. A Church of Ireland – RC marriage could do so. Some couples just ignored the difficulties. For others it was a factor in their decision to emigrate. In the 1800s there wasn’t a lot of subdivision of farms. They were mostly pretty small and just wouldn’t be viable if divided out amongst several sons, generation after generation. So the farm usually went to the eldest son, and the other sons were expected to make their own way in the world. (Some did stay as labourers on bigger farms but many had to leave. There was often no other work for them locally). The daughters were hopefully going to be disposed of by marriage with perhaps one – often the youngest – being retained to look after her parents in their old age (lucky her). See *Note* below. I have touched on Ireland’s problems in the 1800s. There were many. (One wit has said that Ireland has too much history and should be given a break.). Most contributed to emigration. I mentioned previously the massive population explosion between 1741 and 1841. In addition, Ireland has very few natural resources (no oil, coal, iron ore etc) and so did not benefit from the industrial revolution in the 1800s, the way Scotland, England, the US, Canada & Australia did, which created hundreds of thousands of comparatively well-paid new jobs in new
