Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?

> > > Forgive me George for bringing up my original comment - it is entirely > possible that I have not understood the problem. > V happy to discuss it. > > It seems to me that what is really missing is the connection between the > event and the outcome. It seems that you are saying that it is

Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?

Forgive me George for bringing up my original comment - it is entirely possible that I have not understood the problem. It seems to me that what is really missing is the connection between the event and the outcome. It seems that you are saying that it is a causal connection. Shortcutting

Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?

Great analysis! I'll continue to elaborate this further. Wish you all a good start in 2022! Martin On 1/7/2022 12:08 PM, George Bruseker wrote: Hi Rob / Francesco / Martin, These are all nice examples that maybe we could dig into further, maybe they display the 'senses of outcome' problem

Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?

Dear Francesco, Please let us not confuse everything. The CRM is in no ways grounded in physics. It is grounded in the scholarly views of museum curators and a set of other disciplines dealing with historical facts of the past in careful collaborations over 25 years. Please study the history

Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?

Hi Rob / Francesco / Martin, These are all nice examples that maybe we could dig into further, maybe they display the 'senses of outcome' problem Martin is pointing to? An ontological problem that seems to come up in my mind as I try to conceptualize this is do we mean 1) outcome of type in the

Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?

Hi Martin, Quoting self, "in the idiom of CRM, I am proposing that this be restricted to the concept of one event resulting in another event of a type. E7 pxxx had outcome of type E55 (of an E5/7). So I am looking for a CRM property that would be able to denote a similar concept to the one

Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?

Dear Martin, and (indirectly) Rob and George, Thank you for your comments. Le 06.01.22 à 18:13, Martin Doerr via Crm-sig a écrit : Dear Francesco, Your arguments well taken, I repeat: The speech act in CRM is identical to the sale, (Acquisition), if at all the speech act has a legal

Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?

Sorry, I mean (Oxford Dictionary): "outcome noun [ C usually singular ] uk /ˈaʊt.kʌm/ us /ˈaʊt.kʌm/ C1 a result or effect

Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?

I agree with Francesco -- anywhere we don't have complete knowledge of the activities there will be utility to such a shortcut, when there is an intended outcome, but one which is not certain. An archeological expedition -- resulted in outcome of type "came home empty handed" / "found something"

Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?

Hi Rob / Martin, Yes, Rob provides a nice instance example. Again, I just want to explore whether such a property has applications beyond this scope. Perhaps it isn't needed but if we look at more examples maybe a generalization will arise. Best, George On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 7:53 PM Robert

Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?

Dear Martin, Hi George, > > Please explain in more detail: > > On 1/6/2022 1:54 PM, George Bruseker wrote: > > Hi Martin, > > So the context for this is that there are provenance events being > described and there is categorical knowledge derivable from the source > material which a researcher

Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?

Let me try and explain my understanding There are events, such as the auction of a specific lot, in which the objects in the lot are offered for sale. That event might result in the transfer of ownership of the objects in the lot from their current owner to the new owner, but they might not --

Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?

Dear Francesco, Your arguments well taken, I repeat: The speech act in CRM is identical to the sale, (Acquisition), if at all the speech act has a legal character, and if at all the sale is executed via speech act, and not via e-commerce or whatsoever. The negotiation has no deterministic

Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?

Hi George, Please explain in more detail: On 1/6/2022 1:54 PM, George Bruseker wrote: Hi Martin, So the context for this is that there are provenance events being described and there is categorical knowledge derivable from the source material which a researcher might want to attribute to

Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?

Dear George, Martin, Let's take an exemple: there is a negotiation that results in a sale, i.e. a change of ownership of some physical object. The negotiation belongs to the physical, human space: it is an event of type negotiation. It can result, or not, in a speech act changing the

Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?

Hi Martin, So the context for this is that there are provenance events being described and there is categorical knowledge derivable from the source material which a researcher might want to attribute to the event on what generally happened, the event ended in a sale, didn't end in a sale etc.

Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?

In continuation: "Sold", "completed", "incomplete" are very specific things. Objects are offered for sale, which does not imply anything more than a sort of publication. Actual purchase is a reaction on the offer.  Purchase may happen without offer. Actual change of ownership is modeled in

Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?

Dear All, The missing property of outcome is so far deliberate in the CRM, because we could not identify a general case. In contrast, there are models with input-output semantics, but this is a very small subset. As in all such cases, we first need a collection of examples, and study if

Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?

Hi Thanasi, The proposal creates a consistent way of doing the 'type of' version of a property that relates one particular to another particular. So each individual property: https://cidoc-crm.org/Property/P20-had-specific-purpose/version-7.1.1 has its typed version like:

Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?

Following Athina's response and in relation to the question about the extant properties, I guess the "type of type" can be replicated with thesaurus related properties (e.g. P127 has broader term). I would consider the instances of E55 Type slightly differently to normal instances and not

Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?

Hi George, as far as I know, there is no other property from current CRM properties that have E55 Type as range and fits for your case, apart from P21. Another solution would be to use P134 continued for expressing a coherence of outcomes between activities, but again this property does not

Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?

Hi Thanasi, Yes that's true. Good reminder. That might be a solution but then we would need the particular property for expressing that two events are causally connected. I avoided to put it in the last email so as not to stir up to many semantic teapots. But obviously to have the general

Re: [Crm-sig] Modelling an Event's General Outcome Ideas? Properties?

Hi George, all, As part of Linked Conservation Data (and with the help of Carlo, Martin and Steve) we proposed the idea of Typed Properties which derive from current CRM properties and always have E55 Type as range. E.g. "bears feature" → "bears feature of type" so that one can describe the