Re: Bringing Tahoe ideas to HTTP
On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 6:27 AM, Peter Gutmann pgut...@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote: Although the draft has expired, the concept lives on in various tools. For example DownThemAll for Firefox supports this. There was some discussion about including it into FF3, but then the draft was dropped and the FF support never appeared, does anyone know what happened? It was a SoC project within Mozilla but seeing the following discussion : https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=377245 The state looks a bit unclear to me... (The cynic in me would say it's such a simple, straightforward, easy-to- implement idea, of course it'll never be adopted when there are things like EV certs to be pushed instead, but who knows...). mode type=cynic Right... When I see the EV audit process[1], it looks to me like PCI DSS without the technical aspect... /mode [1] http://cabforum.org/WebTrustAuditGuidelines.pdf -- -- Alexandre Dulaunoy (adulau) -- http://www.foo.be/ -- http://www.foo.be/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/Diary -- Knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance --that we can solve them Isaac Asimov - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to majord...@metzdowd.com
Re: [tahoe-dev] Bringing Tahoe ideas to HTTP
Brian Warner war...@lothar.com writes: From what I can tell, the Sparkle update framework (for OS-X)[1] is doing something like what I want for firefox: the Sparkle-enabled application will only accept update bundles which are signed by a DSA privkey that matches a pubkey embedded in the app. You can extend this further to make it tolerant of key loss by embedding multiple public keys and allowing a quorum of them to replace an existing key. So say you have five keys, you can decide that any three of them can vote out an existing key, allowing compromised keys to be replaced and existing keys to be rolled over. This creates a kind of fault-tolerant PKI which does away with the need to have a CA vouch for key replacements, once you've got the initial keys established (for example on first install) you can recover from anything short of a total compromise, upgrade to larger keys sizes and hashes, and so on. It'd be nice if Firefox could do the same. And if Firefox were to establish a quietly-backwards-compatible convention (i.e. the hash-mark trick) for strong URL-based authentication of HTTP resources, then other applications could start using it too, and a significant class of current web security problems (like the mixed-content one where an HTTPS page loads a javascript library via HTTP) could be fixed. See my previous post, there was an attempt made to do this in the past but it never got anywhere. It'd be interesting to hear the reasons why. Peter. - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to majord...@metzdowd.com
Re: Bringing Tahoe ideas to HTTP
On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 11:57 PM, Brian Warner war...@lothar.com wrote: == Integrity == To start with integrity-checking, we could imagine a firefox plugin that validated a PyPI-style #md5= annotation on everything it loads. The rule would be that no action would be taken on the downloaded content until the hash was verified, and that a hash failure would be treated like a 404. Or maybe a slightly different error code, to indicate that the correct resource is unavailable and that it's a server-side problem, but it's because you got the wrong version of the document, rather than the document being missing altogether. On the same idea, there is an expired Internet-Draft called Link Fingerprints : http://www.potaroo.net/ietf/idref/draft-lee-uri-linkfingerprints/ I made some experiments around while used as Machine Tag/Triple Tag[1] : http://www.foo.be/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/MachineTagLinkFingerprint to have an extension with OpenPGP detached signature. Another potential use, it's to benefit from the number of users checking the integrity and contribute back the computed value into a tagging system like del.icio.us or any other collaborative bookmarking. I especially like the Firefox (or wget,curl) extension that could compute the hash value and check it against various contributed hashes. That could give a kind of confidence level regarding the integrity of the file and its corresponding URL/URI. Just some ideas, adulau [1] http://www.foo.be/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/MachineTag -- -- Alexandre Dulaunoy (adulau) -- http://www.foo.be/ -- http://www.foo.be/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/Diary -- Knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance --that we can solve them Isaac Asimov - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to majord...@metzdowd.com
Re: Bringing Tahoe ideas to HTTP
On Sep 15, 2009, at 4:12 PM, James A. Donald wrote: The ideas used in Tahoe are useful tools that can be used to solve important problems. Yes, and I'd be happy to opine on that as soon as someone told me what those important problems are. -- Ivan Krstić krs...@solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu | http://radian.org - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to majord...@metzdowd.com
Re: [tahoe-dev] Bringing Tahoe ideas to HTTP
On Wednesday,2009-09-16, at 14:44 , Ivan Krstić wrote: Yes, and I'd be happy to opine on that as soon as someone told me what those important problems are. The message that you quoted from Brian Warner, which ended with him wondering aloud what new applications could be enabled by such features, began with him mentioning a specific use case that he cares about and sees how to improve: authentication of Mozilla plugins. Brian has an admirable habit of documenting the use cases that motivate his engineering decisions. I think in this case he omitted some explanation of why he finds the current solution unsatisfactory, perhaps because he assumed the audience already shared his view. (I think he mentioned something in his letter like the well-known failures of the SSL/CA approach to this problem.) Regards, Zooko - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to majord...@metzdowd.com
Re: Bringing Tahoe ideas to HTTP
On Aug 27, 2009, at 2:57 PM, Brian Warner wrote: I've no idea how hard it would be to write this sort of plugin. But I'm pretty sure it's feasible, as would be the site-building tools. If firefox had this built-in, and web authors used it, what sorts of vulnerabilities would go away? What sorts of new applications could we build that would take advantage of this kind of security? What you're proposing amounts to a great deal of complex and complicated cryptography. If it were implemented tomorrow, it would take years for the most serious of implementation errors to get weeded out, and some years thereafter for proper interoperability in corner cases. In the meantime, mobile device makers would track you down for the express purpose of breaking into your house at night to pee in your Cheerios, as retaliation for making them explain to their customers why their mobile web browsing is either half the speed it used to be, or not as secure as on the desktop, with no particularly explicable upside. It bugs the hell out of me when smart, technical people spend time and effort devising solutions in search of problems. You need to *start* with the sorts of vulnerabilities you want to do away with, or the kinds of new applications you can build that current security systems don't address, and *then* work your way to solutions that enable those use cases. It's okay to do it in reverse order in the academia, but you seem to be talking about real-world systems. And in real-world systems, you don't get to play Jeopardy with cryptography. Cheers, -- Ivan Krstić krs...@solarsail.hcs.harvard.edu | http://radian.org - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to majord...@metzdowd.com
Re: Bringing Tahoe ideas to HTTP
Ivan Krsti wrote: What you're proposing amounts to a great deal of complex and complicated cryptography. If it were implemented tomorrow, it would take years for the most serious of implementation errors to get weeded out, and some years thereafter for proper interoperability in corner cases. In the meantime, mobile device makers would track you down for the express purpose of breaking into your house at night to pee in your Cheerios, as retaliation for making them explain to their customers why their mobile web browsing is either half the speed it used to be, or not as secure as on the desktop, with no particularly explicable upside. The ideas used in Tahoe are useful tools that can be used to solve important problems. It is true that just dumping them on end users and hoping that end users will use them correctly to solve important problems will fail It is our job to apply these tools, not the end user's job, the hard part being user interface architecture, rather than cryptography protocols. Yurls are one example of an idea for a user interface wrapping Tahoe like methods to solve useful problems. - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to majord...@metzdowd.com
Re: [tahoe-dev] Bringing Tahoe ideas to HTTP
Nicolas Williams wrote: One possible problem: streaming [real-time] content. Brian Warner wrote: Yeah, that's a very different problem space. You need the low-alacrity stuff from Tahoe, but also you don't generally know the full contents in advance. So you're talking about a mutable stream rather than an immutable file. Not mutable, just incomplete. Immutable streaming content needs a tiger hash or a patricia hash, which can handle the fact that some of the stream will be lost in transmission, and that one needs to validate the small part of the stream that one has already received rather than waiting for the end. upgrade bundles are produced by a very strict process, and are rigidly immutable [...] For software upgrades, it would reduce the attack surface significantly. But how does one know which immutable file is the one that has been blessed by proper authority? Although Version 3.5.0 is immutable, what makes it Version 3.5.0, rather than haxx350, is that some authority says so - the same authority that said that your current version is 3.4.7 - and it should not even be possible to get a file named by some different authority as an upgrade. Of course, one would like a protocol that committed the authority to say the same thing for everyone, and the same thing for all time, saying new things in future, but never being able to retroactively adjust past things it has said. In other words, upgrades should be rooted in an append only capability. I suppose this could be implemented as a signed dag of hashes, in which whenever one upgraded, one checked that the signed dag that validates the upgrade is consistent with the signed dag that validated the current version. - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to majord...@metzdowd.com
Re: [tahoe-dev] Bringing Tahoe ideas to HTTP
James A. Donald wrote: Nicolas Williams wrote: One possible problem: streaming [real-time] content. Brian Warner wrote: Yeah, that's a very different problem space. You need the low-alacrity stuff from Tahoe, but also you don't generally know the full contents in advance. So you're talking about a mutable stream rather than an immutable file. Not mutable, just incomplete. Immutable streaming content needs a tiger hash or a patricia hash, which can handle the fact that some of the stream will be lost in transmission, and that one needs to validate the small part of the stream that one has already received rather than waiting for the end. I was assuming a real-time stream, so the goal would be to provide a filecap before the source had finished generating all the bits. This would necessarily be a mutable filecap, unless you've got some way of predicting the future :-). If instead, you just have a large file that a client wants to fetch one piece at a time, well, Tahoe's immutable-file merkle trees already handle the goal of quickly validating a small part of a large byte sequence. You could use this in a non-real-time stream, in which you process the entire input stream, produce and publish the filecap, then a client fetches pieces of that stream at their own pace. upgrade bundles are produced by a very strict process, and are rigidly immutable [...] For software upgrades, it would reduce the attack surface significantly. But how does one know which immutable file is the one that has been blessed by proper authority? You're right, I was assuming a pre-existing secure what to upgrade to channel which could send down an integrity-enhanced download URL. To actually implement such a channel would require further integrity guarantees over mutable data. As I understand it, Firefox actually has a fairly complex upgrade path, because only certain combinations of from-version/to-version are fully tested by QA. Sometimes moving from e.g. 3.0.0.8 to 3.5.0.3 requires going through a 3.0.0.8-3.0.0.9-3.5.0.0-3.5.0.2-3.5.0.3 sort of path. The upgrade channel basically provides instructions to each older version, telling them which new version they should move to. The best sort of integrity guarantees I could think of would be a rule that says the new version must be signed by my baked-in DSA key and have a version number that is greater than mine, or maybe just the upgrade instructions must be signed by that DSA key. It's probably not a robust idea to make the rules too strict. cheers, -Brian - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to majord...@metzdowd.com
Bringing Tahoe ideas to HTTP
[sent once to tahoe-dev, now copying to cryptography too, sorry for the duplicate] At lunch yesterday, Nathan mentioned that he is interested in seeing how Tahoe's ideas and techniques could trickle outwards and influence the design of other security systems. And I was complaining about how the Firefox upgrade process doesn't provide the integrity checks that I want (it turns out they rely upon the CA infrastructure and SSL alone, no end-to-end checking; the updates and releases are GPG-signed, but firefox doesn't check that, only humans might). And PyPI has this nice habit of appending #md5=XYZ.. to the URLs of the release tarballs that they publish, which is (I think) automatically used by tools like easy_install to guard against corrupted downloads (and which I always use, as a human, to do the same). And Nathan mentioned a class of web attacks in which a page, loaded over SSL, imports something (JS, CSS, JPG) via a regular http: URL, and becomes vulnerable to third-parties who can take over the page by controlling what arrives over unauthenticated HTTP. So, setting aside the reliability-via-distributedness properties for a moment, what could we bring from Tahoe into regular HTTP and regular webservers that could improve the state of security on the web? == Integrity == To start with integrity-checking, we could imagine a firefox plugin that validated a PyPI-style #md5= annotation on everything it loads. The rule would be that no action would be taken on the downloaded content until the hash was verified, and that a hash failure would be treated like a 404. Or maybe a slightly different error code, to indicate that the correct resource is unavailable and that it's a server-side problem, but it's because you got the wrong version of the document, rather than the document being missing altogether. This would work just fine for a flat hash: the original file remains untouched, only the referencing URLs change to get the new hash annotation. Non-enhanced browsers are unaffected: the #-prefixed fragment identifier is never sent to the server, and the a name= tag is fairly rare these days (and would still mostly work). Container files (the HTML which references the hashed documents) could be updated to benefit at leisure. Automation (see below) could be used to update the URLs in the containers whenever the referenced objects were modified. To improve alacrity on larger files, Tahoe uses a Merkle tree over segments of the file. This tree has to be stored somewhere (Tahoe stores it along with the shares, but it would be more convenient for a web site to not modify the source files). We could use an annotation like #hashtree=ROOTXYZ;http://otherplace; to reference an external hash tree (with root hash XYZ). The plugin would start pulling from the source file and the hash tree at the same time, and not deliver any source data until it had been validated. The hashtree object would need to start with the segment size and filesize, so the tree could be computed properly. For very large files, you could read those parameters and then pull down (via a Range: header) just the parts of the Merkle tree that were necessary. In this case, the automation would need to create the hash tree file and put it in a known place each time the source file changes, and then updated the references. (note that ROOTXYZ provides the identification properties of this annotation, and http://otherplace; provides the location properties, where identification means the ability to recognize the correct document if someone gives it to you, and location means the ability to retrieve a possibly-correct document. URIs provide identification, URLs are supposed to provide both.) We could compress this by establishing an (overriable) convention that http://example.com/foo.mp3 always has a hashtree at http://example.com/foo.mp3.hashtree, resulting in a URL that looked like http://example.com/foo.mp3#hashtree=ROOTXYZ;. If you needed to store it elsewhere, you could use #hashtree=ROOTXYZ;WHERE, and define WHERE to be a relative URL (with a default value of NAME.hashtree). == Mutable Integrity == Zooko and I have both run HTML presentations out of a Tahoe grid (which makes for a great demo), and the first thing you learn there is that immutability, while a great property in some cases, is a hassle for authoring. You need mutability somewhere, and the more places you have it, the fewer URLs you have to update every time you change something. In technical terms, you frequently want to cut down the diameter of the immutable domains of the object DAG, by splitting those domains with mutable boundary nodes. In practical terms, it means you might want to publish *everything* via a mutable file. At the very least, if your web site has any internal cycles in it, you'll need a mutable node to break the cycle. Again, this requires data beyond the contents of the source file. We could use a #sigkey=XYZ annotation with a base62'ed ECDSA pubkey (this
Re: [tahoe-dev] Bringing Tahoe ideas to HTTP
Hi Brian, all; I'm all for including merkle trees with HTTP GETs, two items that spring to mind: - Appending the location of the hash as you suggest in #hashtree=ROOTXYZ;http://otherplace which requires no changes to the webserver. - Adding a HTTP header with this data but requires something like a server module or output script. It also doesn't ugly up the URL (but then again, we have url shortner services for manual typing). One merkle hash tree over HTTP that interested me was the Tiger Tree Hash Exchange/THEX [1] that's already in use in some P2P systems, and would be interesting reading for other hash tree over HTTP systems. Google Wave appears to use hash trees also, but it seems to be under-speced [2]. I guess once that becomes fleshed out there would be more content systems outputting data along with tree hashes. I do like straightforwardness of using the file.ext#hashtree=root;location or file.ext.sig conventions and an added benefit is the .sig request can be HTTP/1.1 pipelined rather than parsing the returned headers before sending on the additional request. I've no idea how hard it would be to write this sort of plugin. But I'm pretty sure it's feasible, as would be the site-building tools. If firefox had this built-in, and web authors used it, what sorts of vulnerabilities would go away? What sorts of new applications could we build that would take advantage of this kind of security? My thoughts purely turn to verifying files and all webpage resources integrity in a transparent and backward compatible way. Who has not encountered unstable connections where images get corrupted and css files don't fully load? Solving that problem would make me very happy! [1] http://open-content.net/specs/draft-jchapweske-thex-02.html [2] http://groups.google.com/group/wave-protocol/browse_thread/thread/74dbbd2c0f586ec9 - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to majord...@metzdowd.com
Re: [tahoe-dev] Bringing Tahoe ideas to HTTP
Michael Walsh wrote: - Adding a HTTP header with this data but requires something like a server module or output script. It also doesn't ugly up the URL (but then again, we have url shortner services for manual typing). Ah, but see, that loses the security. If the URL doesn't contain the root hash, then you're depending upon somebody else for your authentication, and then it's not end-to-end anymore. URL shortener services are great for the location properties, but lousy for the identification properties. Not only are you relying upon your DNS, and your network, and every other network between you and the server, and the server who's providing you with the data.. now you're also dependent upon the operator of the shortener service, and their database, and anyone who's managed to break into their database, etc. I guess there are three new things to add: * secure identifier in the URL * an upstream request, to say what additional integrity information you want * a downstream response, to provide that additional integrity information The stuff I proposed used extra HTTP requests for those last two. But, if you use the HTTP request headers to ask for the extra integrity metadata, you could use the HTTP response headers to convey it. The only place where this would make sense would be to fetch the merkle tree, or the signature. (if the file was small and you only check the flat hash, then there's nothing else to fetch; if the file is encrypted, then you can define its data layout to be whatever you like, and just include the integrity information in it directly). Oh, and that would make the partial-range request a lot simpler: the client does a GET with a Range: 123-456 header, and the server looks at the associated merkle tree, figures out which chain they'll need to validate those bytes, and returns a header that includes all of those hash tree nodes (and the segment size, filesize). And returns enough file data to cover those segments (i.e. the Content-Range: response would be for a larger range than the Range: request, basically rounded up to a segment size). The client would hash the segments it receives, build and verify the merkle chain, then compare the root of the chain against the roothash in the URL and make sure they match. The response headers might get a bit large: log2(filesize/segsize)*hashsize . And you have to fetch at least a full segsize. But that's predictable and fairly well bounded, so maybe it isn't that big of a deal. Doing this with HTTP headers instead of a separate GET would avoid a roundtrip, since the server (which now takes an active role in the process) can decide these things (like which hash tree nodes are needed) on behalf of the client. Instead of the client pulling one file for the data, then pulling part of another file to get the segment size (so it can figure out which segments it wants), then pulling a different part of that file to get the hash nodes... the client just does a GET Range:, and the server figures out the rest. As you said, it requires a server module. But compared to a client-side plugin, that's positively easy :). It'd probably be a good idea to think about a scheme that would take advantage of a server which had additional capabilities like this. Maybe the client could try the header thing first, and if the response didn't indicate that the server is able to provide that data, go and fetch the .hashtree file. My thoughts purely turn to verifying files and all webpage resources integrity in a transparent and backward compatible way. Who has not encountered unstable connections where images get corrupted and css files don't fully load? Solving that problem would make me very happy! Yeah. We've been having an interesting thread on tahoe-dev recently about the backwards-compatible question, what sorts of failure modes are best to aim for when you're faced with an old server or whatever. You can't make this stuff totally transparent and backwards compatible (in the sense that existing webpages and users should start benefiting from it without doing any work).. I think that's part of the brokenness of the SSL+CA model, where they wanted the only change to be starting from https instead of http. But you can certainly create a framework that lets people get better control over what they're loading. Now, if only distributed programs could be written in languages with those sorts of properties... cheers, -Brian - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to majord...@metzdowd.com
