RE: Another Snake Oil Candidate
On 12 Sep 2007 20:18:22 -0700, Aram Perez wrote: I don't about you, but when I hear terms like (please pardon my cynicism): with military grade AES encryption - Hum, I'll have to ask NIST about that. AES can be permitted for use in classified environments. See http://csrc.nist.gov/CryptoToolkit/aes/CNSS15FS.pdf. And, yes, the DoD does use AES in certain circumstances. The encryption keys used to protect your data are generated in hardware by a FIPS 140-2 compliant True Random Number As opposed to a FIPS 140-2 compliant False Random Number Generator. While I don't understand this quibble about standard terminology, I do note that the IronKey language is somewhat misleading. There are no FIPS-approved non-deterministic RNGs at this point, as all of the FIPS-approved RNGs are deterministic (pseudo) RNGs. (See http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/fips/fips140-2/fips1402annexc.pdf) It is possible to use a non-deterministic RNG to seed a FIPS-approved PRNG, but I don't know of anyone in the FIPS 140-2 world that claims doing so makes the non-deterministic RNG FIPS 140-2 compliant. (Also, if random data is utilized during key generation within a FIPS 140-2 module, then a FIPS-approved RNG must be utilized to generate that data in order to meet FIPS 140-2 requirements. Since all the FIPS-approved RNGs are PRNGs, a true RNG is not going to meet the FIPS 140-2 requirement here.) Overall, colorful language and FIPS 140 hand-waving seem like the marketing norm in the security products that utilize crypto world. I think the language used by IronKey falls right in line with that, but I don't get a sense of snake oil. Then again, I don't really care either. -Andrew - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another Snake Oil Candidate
Damien Miller writes: It protects against the common threat model of lost/stolen USB keys. Remember, crypto without a threat model is like cookies without milk. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com | People have strong opinions Crynwr sells support for free software | PGPok | about economics even though 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 | they've never studied it. Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog | Curious how that is! - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Another Snake Oil Candidate
Dave Korn writes: So by your exacting standards, PGP, gpg, openssh, in fact basically _everything_ is snake oil. No. In fact Aram is saying nothing of interest. Cryptography without a threat model is like motherhood without apple pie. Can't say that enough times. More generally, security without a threat model is by definition going to fail. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com | People have strong opinions Crynwr sells support for free software | PGPok | about economics even though 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 | they've never studied it. Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog | Curious how that is! - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another Snake Oil Candidate
Hagai Bar-El wrote: Hi, On 12/09/07 08:56, Aram Perez wrote: The IronKey appears to provide decent security while it is NOT plugged into a PC. But as soon as you plug it in and you have to enter a password to unlock it, the security level quickly drops. This would be the case even if they supported Mac OS or *nix. As I stated in my response to Jerry Leichter, in my opinion, their marketing department is selling snake oil. I think there is a difference between a product that is susceptible to an attack and the pure distilled 100% natural snake oil, as we usually define it. So, is snake oil: * a crap product? * a fine product with weaknesses? * a marketing campaign that goes OTT? * a term used to slander the opposing security model? * an adjective that applies to any of the above? iang OTT == over-the-top, excessive and dangerous. Derives from WW1 trench warfare. - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Another Snake Oil Candidate
On 13 September 2007 04:18, Aram Perez wrote: to circumvent keylogging spyware - More on this later... The first time you plug it in, you initialize it with a password - Oh, wait until I disable my keylogging spyware. You enter that password to unlock your secure files - Did I disable my keyloggin spyware? Protected by a password that is entered on whatever PC you plug the IronKey into and that is somehow auto-magically protected against all keylogging spyware that may exist on that PC. Decrypting your files is then as easy as dragging and dropping them onto the desktop and by any malware that detects that the IronKey is present and has been unlocked and copies the files to a hidden folder. So by your exacting standards, PGP, gpg, openssh, in fact basically _everything_ is snake oil. Endpoint security is a real issue, but it's not within the remit of this product to address. I feel your complaint is overblown. Marketspeak alone doesn't make a product snakeoil, its security has to actually be bogus too. Encryption Keys The encryption keys used to protect your data are generated in hardware by a FIPS 140-2 compliant True Random Number As opposed to a FIPS 140-2 compliant False Random Number Generator. No, as opposed to a *Pseudo* Random Number Generator. This is a really silly thing to attempt to complain about; they're correctly using technical terminology that you should be perfectly familiar with. cheers, DaveK -- Can't think of a witty .sigline today - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another Snake Oil Candidate
Damien Miller wrote: It protects against the common threat model of lost/stolen USB keys. Why is this snake oil? Your criticism seems akin to calling a physical lock insecure because it doesn't protect you from burglars once you have unlocked it. Many many years ago an office that a startup I was working for was burglarized by picking the lock on the office door. They took a number of computers. The police recommended that we replace the locks with XYZ super lock that could not be picked and we did so at significant expense prior to replacing all of the computers. Three or four weeks later the office was burglarized again. They could not pick the lock so they took a sledgehammer to the wall next to the door, reached in unlocked the door from the inside and proceeded to go about their business. This wasn't a failure of the lock. The lock did its job. --- The product you are describing is not snake oil. You have a valid gripe that the product is not marketed along with a description of the attack vectors it protects against and those that it does not. Jeffrey Altman smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
RE: Another Snake Oil Candidate
I looked at the Ironkey website and, although there is obviously a little marketing-speak, my snake-oil and BS detectors do not go off. Some of the criticisms by Aram Perez appear to be somewhat unjustified. Perez states: Protected by a password that is entered on whatever PC you plug the IronKey into and that is somehow auto-magically protected against all keylogging spyware that may exist on that PC. Relevant Ironkey assertion in their FAQs: A word of caution: if your computer is infected with a keystroke logger before you purchase your IronKey, and if you initially enter your passwords into your IronKey on the computer that is already infected with a keystroke logger, then your passwords of course will be tracked by that keystroke logger. For this reason, we recommend that you setup your IronKey and initially enter your passwords into the Password Manager from a computer that you control and that has anti-spyware and anti-virus software installed. We recommend that you update your anti-spyware and anti-virus definitions and run a sweep of your PC before setting up your IronKey. Perez also states: They imply that you can use an IronKey with any PC and be completely safe. Relevant Ironkey assertion in their FAQs: If I get an IronKey, will I be 100% protected from malware? No. The IronKey does not replace the need good security practices, such as regular anti-virus and anti-spyware scans, not sharing passwords, and avoiding websites that you do not trust. The IronKey does equip you to further protect your data, identity, and privacy-an increasingly necessary tool for today's security-minded consumer. Additionally, new threats are constantly surfacing, so even today's best solutions cannot guarantee future-proof protection. But since you have the ability to securely update your IronKey, you can make sure you have the latest and most secure software and firmware for maximum protection today and tomorrow. Chuck Jackson - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another Snake Oil Candidate
Hi, On 13/09/07 15:14, Ian G wrote: Hagai Bar-El wrote: Hi, On 12/09/07 08:56, Aram Perez wrote: The IronKey appears to provide decent security while it is NOT plugged into a PC. But as soon as you plug it in and you have to enter a password to unlock it, the security level quickly drops. This would be the case even if they supported Mac OS or *nix. As I stated in my response to Jerry Leichter, in my opinion, their marketing department is selling snake oil. I think there is a difference between a product that is susceptible to an attack and the pure distilled 100% natural snake oil, as we usually define it. So, is snake oil: * a crap product? * a fine product with weaknesses? * a marketing campaign that goes OTT? * a term used to slander the opposing security model? * an adjective that applies to any of the above? Just like any term, it can have many interpretations. However, the most useful definition is the one that you can find at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil_(cryptography) and which quite accurately reflects what the people who first brought this term into use used it for. Hagai. -- Hagai Bar-El - Information Security Analyst T/F: 972-8-9354152 Web: www.hbarel.com - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another Snake Oil Candidate
I'm a beta-tester for it, and while I can understand a small twitch when they talk about miltary and beyond military levels of security, it is very cool. It has hardware encryption and will erase itself if there are too many password failures. I consider that an issue, personally, but it appeals to people. The reason I consider it an issue is that I have had to use a brain-dead-simple password I'm not going to forget because if I get cute and need to try a number of things, poof, I'm dead. Yeah, it's using AES CBC mode, but that's a good deal better than a lot of encrypted drives that are using ECB. It also has their own little suite of Mozilla plus Tor and Privoxy for browsing and they've set it up so that you can run that on another computer from the drive. It's not bad at all. My only real complaint is that it requires Windows. Jon - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another Snake Oil Candidate
Hi Jon, On Sep 11, 2007, at 5:35 PM, Jon Callas wrote: I'm a beta-tester for it, and while I can understand a small twitch when they talk about miltary and beyond military levels of security, it is very cool. It has hardware encryption and will erase itself if there are too many password failures. I consider that an issue, personally, but it appeals to people. The reason I consider it an issue is that I have had to use a brain-dead-simple password I'm not going to forget because if I get cute and need to try a number of things, poof, I'm dead. Yeah, it's using AES CBC mode, but that's a good deal better than a lot of encrypted drives that are using ECB. It also has their own little suite of Mozilla plus Tor and Privoxy for browsing and they've set it up so that you can run that on another computer from the drive. It's not bad at all. My only real complaint is that it requires Windows. The IronKey appears to provide decent security while it is NOT plugged into a PC. But as soon as you plug it in and you have to enter a password to unlock it, the security level quickly drops. This would be the case even if they supported Mac OS or *nix. As I stated in my response to Jerry Leichter, in my opinion, their marketing department is selling snake oil. Regards, Aram - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another Snake Oil Candidate
Hi, On 12/09/07 08:56, Aram Perez wrote: The IronKey appears to provide decent security while it is NOT plugged into a PC. But as soon as you plug it in and you have to enter a password to unlock it, the security level quickly drops. This would be the case even if they supported Mac OS or *nix. As I stated in my response to Jerry Leichter, in my opinion, their marketing department is selling snake oil. I think there is a difference between a product that is susceptible to an attack and the pure distilled 100% natural snake oil, as we usually define it. Indeed, the encrypted USB token is susceptible to sniffing of the password on the PC where it is entered. But in my opinion this is not the type of flaw that snake oils the product, because: 1. It's a limitation that also exists in the state of the art products of its type. That is, nobody could ever do better (I think). 2. It therefore does not reflect complete lack of understanding on the developer's side... So perhaps it's not pure snake oil but just a product with an attack vector; most products have at least one. Actually, this product is (almost) the first one that I saw which actually bothers to deal with the brute-force attack vector, which does exist in many other similar products. So it's not perfect, and I would certainly not bet my life on it, probably not even my life's data, but it's reasonable. Hagai. -- Hagai Bar-El - Information Security Analyst T/F: 972-8-9354152 Web: www.hbarel.com - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another Snake Oil Candidate
On 9/11/07, Aram Perez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The world's most secure USB Flash Drive: https://www.ironkey.com/demo. you didn't explain why it is a Snake Oil Candidate.. - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another Snake Oil Candidate
| The world's most secure USB Flash Drive: https://www.ironkey.com/demo. What makes you call it snake oil? At least the URL you point to says very reasonable things: It uses AES, not some home-brew encryption; the keys are stored internally; the case is physically protected, and has some kind of tampering sensor that wipes the stored keys when attacked. In fact, they make some of the same points: Your IronKey is literally packed with the latest and most secure encryption technologies, all enabled by the powerful onboard Cryptochip. Rather than employing homegrown cryptographic algorithms that have not undergone rigorous cryptoanalysis, IronKey follows industry best practices and uses only well-established and thoroughly tested cryptographic algorithms. All of your data on the IronKey drive is encrypted in hardware using AES CBC-mode encryption. 1. Encryption Keys 2. Always-On Encryption 3. Two-Factor Authentication Encryption Keys The encryption keys used to protect your data are generated in hardware by a FIPS 140-2 compliant True Random Number Generator on the IronKey Cryptochip. This ensures maximum protection via the encryption ciphers. The keys are generated in the Cryptochip when you initialize your IronKey, and they never leave the secure hardware to be placed in flash memory or on your computer. Always-On Encryption Because your IronKey implements data encryption in the hardware Cryptochip, all data written to your drive is always encrypted. There is no way to accidentally turn it off or for malware or criminals to disable it. Also, it runs many times faster than software encryption, especially when storing large files or using the on-board portable Firefox browser. Two-Factor Authentication Beyond simply protecting the privacy of your data on the IronKey flash drive, the IronKey Cryptochip incorporates advanced Public Key Cryptography ciphers that allow you to lock down your online IronKey account. That way you must have your IronKey device, in addition to your password, to access your online account. This highly complex process runs behind the scenes, giving you state-of-the-art protection from phishers, hackers and other online threats. The management team lists some people who should know what they are doing. They have a FAQ which gives a fair amount of detail about what they do. I have nothing at all to do with this company - this is the first I've heard of them - but it's hardly advancing the state of security if even those who seem to be trying to do the right thing get tarred as delivering snake-oil. If you know something beyond the publicly-available information about the company, let's hear it. Otherwise, you owe them an apology - whether they actually do live up to their own web site or not. -- Jerry - The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending unsubscribe cryptography to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
