[CTRL] You mean there's TWO Koreas?

2002-10-28 Thread Euphorian
-Caveat Lector- From http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/margolis_oct27.html October 27, 2002 U.S. should be targeting North Korea By ERIC MARGOLIS -- Contributing Foreign Editor Never trust the axis of evil. When U.S. President George W. Bush threatened to invade Iraq if it didn't re-admit UN

[CTRL] A Different Kind of Hawking Bush

2002-10-28 Thread Euphorian
-Caveat Lector- From http://www.miami.com/mld/miami/4378776.htm Posted on Sat, Oct. 26, 2002 Neil Bush touting education venture BY PETER WALLSTEN [EMAIL PROTECTED] TALLAHASSEE - Neil Bush, a younger brother of Gov. Jeb Bush, is promoting a new business venture in Florida with the

[CTRL] Jeb Bush has Florida in Jebpardy!

2002-10-28 Thread Euphorian
-Caveat Lector- http://www.takingcareofbusiness.info/ A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! These are sordid matters and

[CTRL] Top Ten (One's a Fox-ie Convict Groupie)

2002-10-28 Thread Euphorian
-Caveat Lector- From http://www.democraticunderground.com/top10/02/89.html Don't forget to go to the site and check the hot linques! AER The Top Ten Conservative Idiots (No. 89) October 28, 2002 Second Election Countdown Edition The penultimate Idiots before the elections has brought us a

[CTRL] For your attention

2002-10-28 Thread Alamaine Ratliff
-Caveat Lector- Euphorian spotted this on the Guardian Unlimited site and thought you should see it. To see this story with its related links on the Guardian Unlimited site, go to http://www.guardian.co.uk German embassy invites Israeli officers to ceremony honouring Third Reich soldiers Chris

[CTRL] Dying bomber kills three Israeli soldiers

2002-10-28 Thread Jei
-Caveat Lector- http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,820445,00.html Dying bomber kills three Israeli soldiers Chris McGreal in Ariel Monday October 28, 2002 The Guardian Mohammed Kashir's intended objective yesterday was, by one definition in the shifting standards of the war

[CTRL] Moscow siege

2002-10-28 Thread Euphorian
-Caveat Lector- From http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/Swissinfo.html?siteSect=143sid=1420869 Secrecy surrounds gas in Moscow siege swissinfo October 27, 2002 4:45 PM Secrecy surrounds gas in Moscow siege By Elizabeth Piper MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russian officials are refusing to give any details

[CTRL] US-British strategy on Iraq close to collapse

2002-10-28 Thread Jei
-Caveat Lector- Glowering at the cameras, Mr Bush responded: As I have said in speech after speech after speech, if the UN won't act, if Saddam Hussein won't disarm, we will lead a coalition to disarm him. The whole purpose of UN was to function as a forum for forming the said coalition. If

[CTRL] Podiatrist's wife arrested in plot

2002-10-28 Thread Alamaine Ratliff
-Caveat Lector- This St. Petersburg Times (http://www.sptimes.com) story has been sent to you from [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- http://www.sptimes.com/2002/10/25/TampaBay/Podiatrist_s_wife_arr.shtml

[CTRL] Israel Likely Behind US Anthrax Attacks

2002-10-28 Thread Jei
-Caveat Lector- http://www.msnbc.com/news/826855.asp FBI theory on anthrax doubted Attacks not likely work of one person, experts say By Guy Gugliotta and Gary Matsumoto THE WASHINGTON POST Oct. 28 — A significant number of scientists and biological warfare experts are expressing skepticism

[CTRL] US takeover of Iraq spells economic ruin to Arabs

2002-10-28 Thread Jei
-Caveat Lector- http://www.zawya.com/Story.cfm?id=ZAWYA20021028054159Section=Mainpage=Homechannel=All%20Arab%20Newsobjectid=2A17E941-F5E0-11D4-867D00D0B74A0D7C US takeover of Iraq spells economic ruin to Arabs 28 October 2002 Egyptian think tank frets oil issue LONDON: An American invasion of

[CTRL] NYTimes.com Article: Mexico Tells Bush It Won't Support Iraq Resolution U.S. Favors

2002-10-28 Thread Alamaine Ratliff
-Caveat Lector- This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mexico Tells Bush It Won't Support Iraq Resolution U.S. Favors October 28, 2002 By TIM WEINER CABO SAN LUCAS, Mexico, Oct. 27 - President Bush left a summit conference here today without a pledge

[CTRL] Al Qaeda nukes are reality, intelligence says

2002-10-28 Thread klewis
-Caveat Lector- October 28, 2002 Al Qaeda nukes are reality, intelligence says By Neil Doyle SPECIAL TO THE WASHINGTON TIMES LONDON — Soon after September 11 last year, the notion that al Qaeda might have nuclear weapons was largely dismissed by intelligence professionals. It is,

[CTRL] Wellstone speculation

2002-10-28 Thread Dale Stonehouse
-Caveat Lector- The plane crash killing Senator Paul Wellstone may or may not have been an accident. No one not involved, and perhaps not even those who were, will ever know, and those who say they can know for certain are deluding themselves. However, if there were some who thought they would

Re: [CTRL] Wellstone crash assination to ensures Democtraic Senate

2002-10-28 Thread Ahab42
-Caveat Lector- It should be obvious that Wellstone would have lost. The Dems kill two birds with one plane so to speak. Mondale wins easily and the eliminate a socialist thorn from the leadership's side. Carl A HREF="http://www.ctrl.org/"www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is

Re: [CTRL] Wellstone speculation

2002-10-28 Thread klewis
-Caveat Lector- On 28 Oct 2002 at 7:30, Dale Stonehouse wrote: However, if there were some who thought they would benefit from Wellstone's death, they are quite stupid to have thought so. I find it odd that you don't give a moment's consideration to the fact that those who *did* benefit

Re: [CTRL] Wellstone speculation

2002-10-28 Thread Dale Stonehouse
-Caveat Lector- -Original Message- From: klewis [mailto:lewisk;SBCGLOBAL.NET] Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 8:01 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] Wellstone speculation -Caveat Lector- On 28 Oct 2002 at 7:30, Dale Stonehouse wrote: However, if there were some who

Re: [CTRL] Wellstone crash assination to ensures Democtraic Senat e

2002-10-28 Thread Dale Stonehouse
-Caveat Lector- Well, it certainly is NOT obvious to at least one voter. I was not going to vote for Wellstone but I was pretty sure he was going to win a third term. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:Ahab42;AOL.COM] Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 7:57 AM To: [EMAIL

Re: [CTRL] Israel Likely Behind US Anthrax Attacks

2002-10-28 Thread thew
-Caveat Lector- on 10/28/02 5:46 AM, Jei at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- http://www.msnbc.com/news/826855.asp Fascinating article. Doesn't mention Israel anywhere in it , except the subject line of your post. Isn't that interesting. Tells us more about you than about anthrax.

[CTRL] Fwd: [CIA-DRUGS] MY REVIEW OF FORBIDDEN TRUTH

2002-10-28 Thread RoadsEnd
-Caveat Lector- A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many

[CTRL] Fwd: What happens when the OIL runs out?

2002-10-28 Thread RoadsEnd
-Caveat Lector- A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many

[CTRL] Fwd: Gore Vidal in London Observer Says Bushes/CIA CREATED Al Qaeda

2002-10-28 Thread RoadsEnd
-Caveat Lector- A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many

Re: [CTRL] If Wal-Mart comes to your town, kill it

2002-10-28 Thread Mermaid
-Caveat Lector- You know its strange here in england we had a company called ASDA farm stores and i always used to shop there because i have to feed my family on 60 dollars a week.When wallmart bought up ASDA I thought oh good it will be even cheaper but its not cheaper at all my bill is

[CTRL] Fwd: [CIA-DRUGS] Anthrax and The Bush Crime Family, One World Order

2002-10-28 Thread RoadsEnd
-Caveat Lector- A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many

[CTRL] Fwd: [NewPacifica] Today's Voice: Over 200,000 People March in The United States!

2002-10-28 Thread RoadsEnd
-Caveat Lector- A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many

[CTRL] Fwd: [NewPacifica] Fw: Dyncorp: the shady company that has its hand in many criminal enterprises

2002-10-28 Thread RoadsEnd
-Caveat Lector- A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many

[CTRL] President’s Fantasy is a Soldier’s Curse

2002-10-28 Thread RoadsEnd
-Caveat Lector- from: http://expendableelite.com/home.html Click Here: A HREF=http://expendableelite.com/home.html;Welcome to ExpendibleElite.com featuring LTC Da…/A - Part 12: President’s Fantasy is a Soldier’s Curse October 28, 2002 General William C. Westmoreland, in his ©1976 book, A

[CTRL] Fw: [piml] Slay the AOL Liberal Monster

2002-10-28 Thread ab
-Caveat Lector- FYI to aid you in getting educated about our common Enemy.. The last paragraph of this Post refers to Antonio Gramsci. Highly recommend you visit 'Gramsci for Beginners' at http://www.charm.net/~vacirca/ Also, 'Gramsci Resources' at http://www.soc.qc.edu/gramsci/index.html

Re: [CTRL] Fw: [piml] Slay the AOL Liberal Monster

2002-10-28 Thread thew
Title: Re: [CTRL] Fw: [piml] Slay the AOL Liberal Monster -Caveat Lector- Hard to take an article seriously when it claims we were winning the war in Vietnam in 68. By what criteria can that assertion be made? Not any that I can think of, how about you? on 10/28/02 1:20 PM, ab at [EMAIL

[CTRL] NYTimes.com Article: Thomas B. Ross, 73, Author and Defense Spokesman

2002-10-28 Thread Tenor Love
-Caveat Lector- This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thomas B. Ross, 73, Author and Defense Spokesman October 28, 2002 By JENNIFER MEDINA Thomas B. Ross, a journalist and best-selling author of books on military intelligence who later became the

Re: [CTRL] [Conspiracy-Theory] US-British strategy on Iraq close to collapse

2002-10-28 Thread Party of Citizens
-Caveat Lector- On Mon, 28 Oct 2002, Jei wrote: Glowering at the cameras, Mr Bush responded: As I have said in speech after speech after speech, if the UN won't act, if Saddam Hussein won't disarm, we will lead a coalition to disarm him. The whole purpose of UN was to function as a forum

[CTRL] Alfred M. Lilienthal : Why The Rise In Anti-Semitism In Europe?

2002-10-28 Thread alien
-Caveat Lector- Alfred M. Lilienthal : Why The Rise In Anti-Semitism In Europe? Sunday, October 27 2002 @ 07:39 PM GMT Any time that we hear that Jews are suddenly being persecuted, we have to ask what is really going on. Are their opponents attacking them only because they are Jews? By Dr.

Re: [CTRL] Alfred M. Lilienthal : Why The Rise In Anti-Semitism In Europe?

2002-10-28 Thread thew
-Caveat Lector- That is legitimate political protest. Plastering synagogues with swastikas, or just burning them down, or attacking Jews on the streets (all of these things happened recently in France Germany and Holland) however has very little to do with Israel, and a lot to do with

[CTRL] For your attention

2002-10-28 Thread Alamaine Ratliff
-Caveat Lector- Euphorian spotted this on the Guardian Unlimited site and thought you should see it. --- Note from Euphorian: Putin has weapons of mass detruction and gasses his own people ... now what? --- To see this story with its related links on the Guardian Unlimited site, go to

[CTRL] Not an endorsement, but ...

2002-10-28 Thread Euphorian
-Caveat Lector- From http://www.gopbi.com/partners/pbpost/epaper/editions/sunday/opinion_d39b7bcf505a00bc 005f.html ... there seems to be a family resemblance here ... AER Sunday, October 27 Accent | Business | Local News Main News | Opinion | Sports Get bullish on Florida; make McBride

[CTRL] Fwd: [NewPacifica] Oil, Insider Trading and George Bush

2002-10-28 Thread RoadsEnd
-Caveat Lector- A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many

[CTRL] Holy Genes Conspiracy

2002-10-28 Thread Party of Citizens
-Caveat Lector- -- Forwarded message -- Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:16:50 -0800 (PST) From: Party of Citizens [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LIFE-GAZETTE] Kohanim Lie Yes the Kohanim thing is a PROVEN LIE. It does

[CTRL] WorldNetDaily: Iraq, Arafat, bin Laden coalition formed?

2002-10-28 Thread Euphorian
-Caveat Lector- http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29427 Weapon of News Destruction ? A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed.

[CTRL] FW: New thoughtful piece by Michael Moore

2002-10-28 Thread thew
-Caveat Lector- -- The concept of ³god² is just a future memory of ourselves. Barney Funkasaurus NEURONAUTIC INSTITUTE on-line: http://home.earthlink.net/~thew -- Forwarded Message Yes, It Was a Bushmaster October 25, 2002

[CTRL] Fwd: Senator Wellstone in Context

2002-10-28 Thread William Shannon
-Caveat Lector- A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many

[CTRL] Moonies Are Target Too Big To Be Missed

2002-10-28 Thread William Shannon
-Caveat Lector- http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2002/2942moonie_targt.html This article appears in the Nov. 1, 2002 issue of Executive Intelligence Review. LaRouche: Moonies Are Target Too Big To Be Missed by Jeffrey Steinberg During an Oct. 19 webcast with Democratic candidates, Lyndon

[CTRL] After the War

2002-10-28 Thread William Shannon
-Caveat Lector- http://amconmag.com/10_7/after_the_war.html After the War by Pat Buchanan “Though the object of being a Great Power is to be able to fight a Great War, the only way of remaining a Great Power is not to fight one.” So wrote British historian A.J.P. Taylor in 1961. All the

[CTRL] NYTimes.com Article: FBI Was Warned of Sniper Suspect

2002-10-28 Thread Alamaine Ratliff
-Caveat Lector- This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by [EMAIL PROTECTED] FBI Was Warned of Sniper Suspect October 26, 2002 By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS Filed at 9:08 a.m. ET The FBI was told by a witness last summer in Washington state that sniper suspect John Allen

[CTRL] ILLUMINATI MIND CONTROL TRIGGER The Snipers

2002-10-28 Thread William Shannon
-Caveat Lector- http://www.sianews.com/modules.php?name=Newsfile=articlesid=262 ILLUMINATI MIND CONTROL TRIGGER The Snipers [FriendsOfLiberty's Note: What follows is not an official FLI pronouncement; it was forwarded to us today, and in the interest of open discussion is published here

[CTRL] Fwd: ZGram - 10/27/2002 - Shamir: 'Poisoning Wells'

2002-10-28 Thread William Shannon
-Caveat Lector- A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many

[CTRL] BELTWAY LOVERS:MAINSTREAM MEDIA'S DIRTY SECRET

2002-10-28 Thread William Shannon
-Caveat Lector- http://www.etherzone.com/2002/sarg110402.shtml BELTWAY LOVERS: MAINSTREAM MEDIA'S DIRTY SECRET By: Daniel Sargis Love of Life… If the authorities are unable to obtain a murder conviction on suspected teen sniper, John Lee Malvo, there is always Plan B. Maryland state law

[CTRL] Al Martin: Will The Stupidity Of The American People Ever End?

2002-10-28 Thread William Shannon
-Caveat Lector- http://www.almartinraw.com/column77.html Will the Stupidity of the American People Ever End? by Al Martin (October 28) The death of Senator Paul Wellstone was a phenomenal stroke of luck for the Republicans. Wellstone was the Democrats' best hope to hold onto control of the

[CTRL] FBI Warnings, CIA Cutouts Mind Control Killers

2002-10-28 Thread William Shannon
-Caveat Lector- http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=94contentid=642page=2 FBI Warnings, CIA Cutouts Mind Control Killers by ANONYMOUS New FBI warnings claim that "information from debriefings of al Qaida detainees as of mid-October indicates that the group has considered

[CTRL] INS Fails Again

2002-10-28 Thread ab
-Caveat Lector- http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/10/28/165745.shtml Adding to the human smuggling connection, Muhammad’s companion and now co-defendant, John Lee Malvo, arrived illegally in the U.S. aboard a cargo ship from Jamaica. He was in the company of his mother and other

[CTRL] *NEW* Homosexuals: A Dangerous Agenda *NEW* [must read]

2002-10-28 Thread ab
-Caveat Lector- I am not speaking against the rights of consenting adults. Frankly, I don't give a damn about homosexuals, but I demand that they leave children alone. October 28, 2002 -- Robert Dawson: Homosexuals: A Dangerous Agenda

[CTRL] Fw: MADISON SCHOOL BOARD REVERSES DECISION, Pledge of Allegiance NO LONGER BANNED IN MADISON WISCONSIN

2002-10-28 Thread ab
-Caveat Lector- I pledge allegiance to the fags of the United States of America, and to the democracy for which they stand, One Nation, under ZOG, with liberty and justice for all politically correct citizens. Scroll to America the Sinful (Sung to America the Beautiful) ab -

[CTRL] chips, ex-shriner guilty, shanley promotion, cia

2002-10-28 Thread Smart News
-Caveat Lector- both from L Moss-Sharman Implantable Chip, On Sale Now By Julia Scheeres 10/25/02 The maker of an implantable human ID chip has launched a national campaign to promote the device, offering $50 discounts to the first 100,000 people who register to get embedded with the

[CTRL] re: *NEW* Homosexuals: A Dangerous Agenda

2002-10-28 Thread Lee Blackburn
-Caveat Lector- Besides being a fine example of the kind of unsubstantiated, incorrobable propoganda we ought to be wary of, what the hell does this have to do with institutionalized conspiracies? I'm sorry but shame ab for putting such crap on an honorable list. A

[CTRL] Rasputin Is in Charge

2002-10-28 Thread William Shannon
http://freedom.orlingrabbe.com/lfetimes/rasputin_in_charge.htm Rasputin Is in Charge by Zola How do I terrorize thee? Let me count the ways. First there was the U.S.-created bogeyman Osama bin Laden. Then there was the mail delivery of U.S.-created anthrax. Then there was the

[CTRL] The Gay Rights War is Over and We Lost

2002-10-28 Thread iNFoWaRZ
-Caveat Lector- The Gay Rights War is Over and We Lost Cal Thomas Syndicated Columnist Let’s be honest. The battle over so-called gay rights is over. Politicians, the media, and the medical and psychological professions – everyone is completely on board. It’s simply a matter of time –weeks,

[CTRL] Wheels Come Off U.S. War Plans for Iraq

2002-10-28 Thread William Shannon
-Caveat Lector- http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/102802_wheels.html Wheels Come Off U.S. War Plans for Iraq Administration Making Riskier, More Volatile Moves to Begin "All or Nothing" Gamble for Iraqi Oilfields by Michael C. Ruppert [© Copyright, 2000, From The Wilderness

[CTRL] For your attention

2002-10-28 Thread Alamaine Ratliff
-Caveat Lector- Euphorian spotted this on the Guardian Unlimited site and thought you should see it. --- Note from Euphorian: Now, Shrub's got 'em ... questionable weapons of mass destruction ... and he's acting a little roguish ... What to do? What to do? --- To see this story with

[CTRL] The death of US Senator Paul Wellstone: accident or murder?

2002-10-28 Thread Euphorian
-Caveat Lector- http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/oct2002/well-o29_prn.shtml World Socialist Web Site www.wsws.org WSWS : News Analysis : North America The death of US Senator Paul Wellstone: accident or murder? By the Editorial Board 29 October 2002 Back to screen version| Send this

[CTRL] PittsburghLIVE.com - Chicken hawks are hard to miss

2002-10-28 Thread Euphorian
-Caveat Lector- http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/columnists/s_99257.html A HREF=http://www.ctrl.org/;www.ctrl.org/A DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not

[CTRL] Putin's gas attack in Moscow--the outcome of Russia's barbaric war in Chechnya

2002-10-28 Thread Euphorian
-Caveat Lector- http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/oct2002/mosc-o29_prn.shtml World Socialist Web Site www.wsws.org WSWS : News Analysis : Europe : Russia Putin’s gas attack in Moscow—the outcome of Russia’s barbaric war in Chechnya By Editorial Board 29 October 2002 Back to screen

[CTRL] Red Elk on Coast to Coast Tonight

2002-10-28 Thread Steve Wingate
-Caveat Lector- (Red Elk is so cool. Great program. --SW) 10/28/02 - Mon/Tue Guest: Red Elk Inter-Tribal Native American Medicine Man He is a self-described half-breed Native American from both the BlackFeet and Shoshoni Nations as well as part Irish and French. He is a member of Heyoka (hi -

[CTRL] For your attention

2002-10-28 Thread Alamaine Ratliff
-Caveat Lector- Euphorian spotted this on the Guardian Unlimited site and thought you should see it. --- Note from Euphorian: First the cows then the sheep and now the fish. And this is from the government upon which we depend to assist us in conflicts. They're killing themselves but