Re: [CTRL] We Already Know ... [CTRL] Gassed Kurds
-Caveat Lector- Lyn: The point of my message was not whether or not Saddam gassed the Kurds. The Iranians gassed, the Iraqis gassed, the Kurds were victims. You ignored the point that the US helped Saddam manufacture his poison. The US was responsible for the deaths of 100,000/s of Shiites and Kurds when it formented an uprising against Saddam in 1991 after the Gulf War - then had second thoughts about permitting the Shiites from taking power, afraid they would ally themselves with the Iranian Shiites. The US permitted Saddam to use his heliocopters after we had established a 'no fly zone' to butcher the Shiites and Kurds. Now we cry crocodile tears The WMD BS is agiprop invented by the neo-cons. flw www.ctrl.org DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] We Already Know ... [CTRL] Gassed Kurds
-Caveat Lector- FLW: Thank you for your reply. I am having difficulty here because my messages are being bounced back to me by CTRL, so the rest of the list will not have a clue what your reply referred to. For some reason my original comment on Kurds/WMD was allowed through, but now we are back to the blocked stage I was at on the list prior to that. I can only assume some selective mechanism is operating. I saw your two points about (1) gas is not a WMD, only nukes, and (2) the USA helped Saddam earlier on. My letter contained a point which I thought replied to the first of these. 5000 Kurds (even though that number is disputed) is a mass of people, and most discussions of WMD go wider than nuclear weapons. I believe you are correct about the US helping Saddam earlier on. I have looked at the weapons source statistics, and the contributions of France and Russia towards Saddam's arsenal were also large. Regards, LM -Original Message- From: Conspiracy Theory Research List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of flw Sent: 03 August 2003 13:55 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] We Already Know ... [CTRL] Gassed Kurds Lyn: The point of my message was not whether or not Saddam gassed the Kurds. The Iranians gassed, the Iraqis gassed, the Kurds were victims. You ignored the point that the US helped Saddam manufacture his poison. The US was responsible for the deaths of 100,000/s of Shiites and Kurds when it formented an uprising against Saddam in 1991 after the Gulf War - then had second thoughts about permitting the Shiites from taking power, afraid they would ally themselves with the Iranian Shiites. The US permitted Saddam to use his heliocopters after we had established a 'no fly zone' to butcher the Shiites and Kurds. Now we cry crocodile tears The WMD BS is agiprop invented by the neo-cons. flw www.ctrl.org DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] We Already Know ... [CTRL] Gassed Kurds
-Caveat Lector- Your argument is not valid. Halabja had been occupied (temporarily) by Iranian forces 48 hours before the main chemical attack from Iraq. But there had been earlier chemical attacks as well, and the Iraqi administration later used the chemical attack on Halabja as a threat to keep its Kurdish citizens in line. There is a book called No Friends But The Mountains - the Tragic History Of The Kurds, written by two senior UK journalists called John Bullock and Harvey Morris, and first published in 1992. On page 9 of the Penguin 1993 edition, it states: . The Kurds saw little prospect that the Western build-up in the Gulf would bring them any direct advantage. In the early months of the crisis there was certainly no thought in the West of a possible Kurdish role in an Iraqi post-war settlement, if indeed there was to be a war. The Kurds were also mindful of the fact that if they decided to strike at the regime but struck too soon and before it was sufficiently weakened, then Baghdad might respond as it had in the past, with bombardment by chemical weapons. Saddam's deputy, Izzat Ibrahim, had even gone to Suleimaniyeh to warn them: 'If you have forgotten Halabja, I would like to remind you that we are ready to repeat the operation.' On page 142 it states: ... In the late afternoon of 16 March the first wave of Iraqi planes appeared over the town to drop their bomb-loads of mustard has, nerve gas and cyanide. Within a few hours as many as 5,000 people were dead and as many again lay burned and gasping for breath from the effects of the chemical attack.. . The Kurds call Halabja the Kurdish Auschwitz, not because the scale of the massacre was comparable with that of the Nazi death camp, but because the victims were chosen merely because they were Kurds. .as a punishment for their assumed collaboration with Iran and the Iranian-backed peshmerga who had seized Halabja from Iraqi forces less than forty-eight hours earlier.. And It was not the first time the Baathist regime had used chemical weapons against the Kurds - Mullah Mustafa Barzani complained to the United Nations as early as 1963 that Baghdad was using chemicals. Nor was it to be the last. In the twelve months leading up to the raid on Halabja there had been chemical attacks against villages, civilians and peshmerga units in isolated valleys on twenty-one separate days. After a raid on the Balasan valley in Arbil province on 16 April 1987, 286 injured Kurds made their way to Arbil city for medical attention. They were all captured and killed by the Iraqi army. But Halabja was the most ruthless and deadly operation until then, and had been directed at targets - civilian citizens of Iraq - with no possible military significance. L L Milnes www.ctrl.org DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] We Already Know ... [CTRL] Gassed Kurds
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 8/2/2003 9:20:46 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My letter contained a point which I thought replied to the first of these. 5000 Kurds (even though that number is disputed) is a "mass" of people, and most discussions of WMD go wider than nuclear weapons. Old fashioned chemical weapons such as mustard gas are never considered WMD. Newer chems, bio-agents and nukes fit the bill. Bill. www.ctrl.org DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ A HREF=""ctrl/A To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Gassed Kurds
Title: Message -Caveat Lector- From Circle of Fear by Hussein Sumaida, 1991, Brasseys "Saddam still intended to be the God of the Dead. There were other nuclear projects at Hammam Ali and Irbil, which were to the west, nearer Mosul. Just to be sure, Saddam was still manufacturing other forms of death: nerve gas, mustard gas, typhoid. And the most deadly germ of them all, anthrax. There were chemical facilities around Baghdad, at Madain, Samarra and Al Qaaim. "Just about everyone in Baghdad knew about a mysterious Canadian scientist who was one of the key men on the chemical-weapons program. They would point out his expensive house, which was near the home of the old Mukhabarat chief Barazan in the Al Jadriya district, on the peninsula that jutted out into the river. He lived there with his family, constantly guarded by security men supplied by the government. The scientist was a friend of that other Canadian who had been so vital to Saddam's war schemes, Gerald Bull. "Bull was still working on the Supergun. But the modified Howitzers were being adapted to carry what we called Binaries. Special chemical warheads, they carried two different chemicals that, when exploded together, reacted with each other to create lethal gases. They were being developed by Bull's Canadian friend. At least that was the commonly held belief inside the Mukhabarat. "The ultimate target was, as usual, Israel. "The chemical projects were field-tested on whole villages of Kurdish men, women and children. The first tests were primitive, but effective. They simply flew over in Soviet Ilyushin transport planes and rolled barrels of the stuff out the side. On impact, chemicals in separate compartments combined to form lethal gases. "By March 16, 1988, the Iraqis had refined the process and tried out chemical bombs on the Kurds. The entire village of Halabja was wiped out in seconds. Other villages nearby were treated to a similar fate from the long-range Howitzers. This mass killing did not come to the world's attention until after the ceasefire between Iran and Iraq in July 1988. "The Kurds were Saddam's whipping boys. He had his military officers use them as practice targets for cluster bombs imported from Chile, then for modified cluster bombs called Siggils, fired by multimissle launchers. The Ababil missle was tried out to see what radius of killing field it would produce. It was a roaring success. "In a more traditional exercise, Saddam had his gunships wipe out thirty-six villages in the Imadya sectior in the north, leaving not one survivor. And then special units were sent in to demolish what little was left of the frail litttle village houses. Eventually they annihilated every village within thirty kilometers of the Iranian and Turkish borders. The war was the excuse for this slaughter. The Kurds were to be wiped out in order to create a no-mans-land along the border. Then, to prevent resettlement, the whole area was mined. "Saddam couldn't get to the Jews. So he contented himself in the meantime with the genocide of the Kurds. The world said virtually nothing. In the summer of 1988, the Kurds were again the guinea pigs for biological weapons. The military scientists tried out their typhoid virus, but for reasons that remain obscure, it was not a success. "Biological warfare plants were build in Al Kut and Suwera, both to the southwest of Baghdad along the Tigris. I was never sure what they were busy cooking up in Al Kut, but at Suwera, I knew, they nurtured typhoid. A friend of mine who worked neraby at the technical college came to visit one day and recounted with glee the latest accident at the Suwera typhoid plant." pages 238-9 "Saddam deported, tortured and killed opposition among the Shi'a. The gassing of the Kurds, another group who might have arisen against him, is also well-known. The actions of the Mukhabarat against the Kurds is less well known. The Mukhabarat used to send a female agent to sell a popular homemade yogurt to the Kurds. The yogurt, contaminated with cyanide or rat poison, would kill everyone who ate it. This was also done in Europe, to kill those judged to be a threat to Saddam. It was an alternative to the infamous "diplomatic box." "Members of the Da'wah, Kurds, rebellious party members and military officers who offered competition to Saddam, all had been eliminated. They were delivered in boxes to their front doors after being gassed, shot, bombed or beheaded by a helicopter blade." page 209. www.ctrl.org DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substance—not soap-boxing—please! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'—with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright frauds—is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being
[CTRL] Gassed Kurds
-Caveat Lector- http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/31/opinion/31PELL.html A War Crime or an Act of War? By STEPHEN C. PELLETIERE ECHANICSBURG, Pa. It was no surprise that President Bush, lacking smoking-gun evidence of Iraq's weapons programs, used his State of the Union address to re-emphasize the moral case for an invasion: "The dictator who is assembling the world's most dangerous weapons has already used them on whole villages, leaving thousands of his own citizens dead, blind or disfigured." The accusation that Iraq has used chemical weapons against its citizens is a familiar part of the debate. The piece of hard evidence most frequently brought up concerns the gassing of Iraqi Kurds at the town of Halabja in March 1988, near the end of the eight-year Iran-Iraq war. President Bush himself has cited Iraq's "gassing its own people," specifically at Halabja, as a reason to topple Saddam Hussein. But the truth is, all we know for certain is that Kurds were bombarded with poison gas that day at Halabja. We cannot say with any certainty that Iraqi chemical weapons killed the Kurds. This is not the only distortion in the Halabja story. I am in a position to know because, as the Central Intelligence Agency's senior political analyst on Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war, and as a professor at the Army War College from 1988 to 2000, I was privy to much of the classified material that flowed through Washington having to do with the Persian Gulf. In addition, I headed a 1991 Army investigation into how the Iraqis would fight a war against the United States; the classified version of the report went into great detail on the Halabja affair. This much about the gassing at Halabja we undoubtedly know: it came about in the course of a battle between Iraqis and Iranians. Iraq used chemical weapons to try to kill Iranians who had seized the town, which is in northern Iraq not far from the Iranian border. The Kurdish civilians who died had the misfortune to be caught up in that exchange. But they were not Iraq's main target. And the story gets murkier: immediately after the battle the United States Defense Intelligence Agency investigated and produced a classified report, which it circulated within the intelligence community on a need-to-know basis. That study asserted that it was Iranian gas that killed the Kurds, not Iraqi gas. The agency did find that each side used gas against the other in the battle around Halabja. The condition of the dead Kurds' bodies, however, indicated they had been killed with a blood agent that is, a cyanide-based gas which Iran was known to use. The Iraqis, who are thought to have used mustard gas in the battle, are not known to have possessed blood agents at the time. These facts have long been in the public domain but, extraordinarily, as often as the Halabja affair is cited, they are rarely mentioned. A much-discussed article in The New Yorker last March did not make reference to the Defense Intelligence Agency report or consider that Iranian gas might have killed the Kurds. On the rare occasions the report is brought up, there is usually speculation, with no proof, that it was skewed out of American political favoritism toward Iraq in its war against Iran. I am not trying to rehabilitate the character of Saddam Hussein. He has much to answer for in the area of human rights abuses. But accusing him of gassing his own people at Halabja as an act of genocide is not correct, because as far as the information we have goes, all of the cases where gas was used involved battles. These were tragedies of war. There may be justifications for invading Iraq, but Halabja is not one of them. In fact, those who really feel that the disaster at Halabja has bearing on today might want to consider a different question: Why was Iran so keen on taking the town? A closer look may shed light on America's impetus to invade Iraq. We are constantly reminded that Iraq has perhaps the world's largest reserves of oil. But in a regional and perhaps even geopolitical sense, it may be more important that Iraq has the most extensive river system in the Middle East. In addition to the Tigris and Euphrates, there are the Greater Zab and Lesser Zab rivers in the north of the country. Iraq was covered with irrigation works by the sixth century A.D., and was a granary for the region. Before the Persian Gulf war, Iraq had built an impressive system of dams and river control projects, the largest being the Darbandikhan dam in the Kurdish area. And it was this dam the Iranians were aiming to take control of when they seized Halabja. In the 1990's there was much discussion over the construction of a so-called Peace Pipeline that would bring the waters of the Tigris and Euphrates south to the parched Gulf states and, by extension, Israel. No progress has been made on this, largely because of Iraqi intransigence. With Iraq in American hands, of course, all that could change. Thus America could alter the
