Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- On Tue, 13 Jul 1999, Robert Paul wrote: -Caveat Lector- William Hugh wrote: ""The state" is here to stay." This is good...anarchy leads to statism any way. I oppose statism because it is idolatry and the root of most social evil. So, we agree that some form of government is always necessary or society resorts to chaos. But would you concede that the exercise of governmental power does not always have to be oppressive? Idolatry in any form is probably not a good thing. But I tend to be more pessimistic about the ability of human beings to maintain their civil liberties/personal freedom without the presence of government. The question is what kind of government shall we have? A government that protects everyone's civil liberties or the civil liberties of a few? Many of the folks on the list are champions of the US Constitution, which I agree is a noble document, but throughout most of the history of the United States, some of the most aggregious practices known to man were committed while the Constitution was in effect: existence of slavery, denial of full civil liberties to a substantial portion of the population, etc. Without the power of government to enforce the common good, society reverts to a condition of chaos where the strong terrorize and brutalize the weak. Laissez-faire becomes a recipe for fascism. Why? Because human beings are always willing to engage in one form of combine or another to oppress their fellow citizens. Only a powerful and strong government can prevent injustice. Otherwise, we are trapped in a Hobbesian jungle...a war of all against all. "Why should the wealthiest of Americans eliminate something that serves the interests of monopoly capitalism so well?" The Plutocracy will never give up their wealth and power unless we're willing to give then an incentive to do so. "Monopoly capitalism" (a poplar contradiction in terms) doesn't exist. Only the State can maintain a monopoly and only if given the power to do so by an ignorant and lazy People. I agree. The state does maintain various economic monopolies of various kinds. That's because the state is the tool of private interests...helping a few economic players maintain economic hegemony. "We haven't even touched on the issue of local governments, local politics...how local businessmen use the power of LOCAL governments to keep competition to a minimum" Statism is like cancer...it is difficult to stop and often ends in death. Unfortunately, most advocate more statism as an antidote. Perhaps the problem is not a case of more versus less statism, but a focus on what the state actually does. We will have a government of some kind or another, that's a given. Then, it just becomes a matter of deciding what kind of governmental policy can be adopted that serves the interests of ALL of the nation's citizens, not just an affluent few. "I'm sorry, Mr. Paul." Robert Paul is my Christian appellation and I avoid the word Mrit has a negative history smile. Sorry, Robert. "I remember very well how states, counties, and city municipalities would gleefully violate the civil rights of Americans with impunity." This is true...civil rights are easy to violate since they are mere (state given) privileges. Un-alienable rights is stronger ground to stand on, but against the almighty State no rights are possible. On this point, I think you're overly optimistic about the ability of your fellow citizens to recognize the un-alienable rights of their fellow citizens. Governor Faubus, Governor Wallace and Bull Connor weren't particularly interested in the un-alienable rights of black Americans. It took the power of an outside agency (that wicked old US government that is always up to no good) to guarantee the civil liberties of ALL Americans in the South. The local authorities hated the implementation of civil rights laws during that period; so much so, that many Americans who were brave enough to insist on their Constitutional rights would often end up at the bottom of a swamp. "It was only the power of the federal government that brought an end to the Jim Crow era." The Jim Crow era was a product of State statism and thanks to the Yes. The Jim Crow era was a product of State statism. That is why so many of these arguments about letting "the local level" handle things are dubious, because "the local level" can be just as corrupt and tyrannical as the wicked ol' Federal government. Thank heaven for the United States government that places strict controls on how the tax dollars are spent at the local level. Why do I say that? Because I don't think any minority resident in the state of North Dakota (my state) has any confidence in the ability of the white population to decide how much money should be spent funding educational programs in our local Native American communities. Federal "government" we have "affirmative action" (reverse discrimination),"hate
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- some form of government is always necessary or society resorts to chaos. Do you personally need the gun and the club to keep you in line? Or do you behave like a decent human being becaue that's what you are? Show of hands please. I would particularly like to hear in detail from anybody out there who would run amok if there was no government to restrain them. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- - Original Message - From: nessie [EMAIL PROTECTED] anarchy leads to statism any way. This is like saying gravity lead to weightlesness. It does, if you go fast enough, far enough. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- I wrote: "anarchy leads to statism any way." To which Nessie wrote: "This is like saying gravity lead to weightlessness." In a free fall one IS weightless. What I meant was...without government criminal gangs come to power and later after one gang conquers the rest they become the "government". DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- Nessie wrote: "Do you personally need the gun and the club to keep you in line?" No, we need the gun and the club to keep criminals in line. All government means is organized defense. We have organized food production so that one doesn't have to grow one's own food, otherwise we'd be compelled to defend ourselves without any objectivity. "Or do you behave like a decent human being because that's what you are?" Yes and even if every one did behave as such we'd still need an organized defense agency if only to arbitrate honest disagreements. We both know that crime will always be with us, though. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- wiithout government criminal gangs come to power (1.) That's statist propaganda, and quite simply untrue. Many people, many cultures, get along without government just fine. Read People Without Government: An Anthropology of Anarchism by Harold Barclay, ISBN 0-900707-75-5 (2.) The government IS a criminal gang. When any of them are in power that is statism. When none are in power that is anarchy. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- - Original Message - From: Robert Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] I wrote: "anarchy leads to statism any way." To which Nessie wrote: "This is like saying gravity lead to weightlessness." In a free fall one IS weightless. What I meant was...without government criminal gangs come to power and later after one gang conquers the rest they become the "government". "Human nature abhors a power vacuum." DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- Good point, n. I'm sure you're a charming person and not the type to go running amok. But if you are going to argue that human beings in their natural state are wise, benign, peaceful and nonviolentand that they have a natural propensity to respect the property and civil liberties of others, I would disagree. I remember my first day on the school ground. The teacher, a wonderful woman, told the class that we are to respect one another, not to fight, to be good children. Unfortunately, the minute the teacher's back was turned, all hell would break loose. Perhaps, you attended a very different kind of school, but my school was an inner city one where a Social Darwinist law of the jungle held sway. There were little gangs of bullies who would terrorize the weak and defenseless and there were children who would deliberately lie in order to get others in trouble.. and heaven help you if you just wanted to mind your own business. Some of the children would go on to junior high and eventually demonstrate even more dangerous proclivities: carrying weapons to school, drug use, prostitution, etc. I'm sure that others on the list may have attended public schools of a similar nature. What is my point? Human beings need guidance, direction, and rules to help them grow. And human societies aren't much different. That's why you need a government in order to maintain some measure of order. Have you ever read Lord of the Flies? It might illustrate my point. Thank you for the response, Will On Tue, 13 Jul 1999, nessie wrote: -Caveat Lector- some form of government is always necessary or society resorts to chaos. Do you personally need the gun and the club to keep you in line? Or do you behave like a decent human being becaue that's what you are? Show of hands please. I would particularly like to hear in detail from anybody out there who would run amok if there was no government to restrain them. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- But if you are going to argue that human beings in their natural state are wise, benign, peaceful and nonviolentand that they have a natural propensity to respect the property and civil liberties of others, I would disagree. Humans are ALWAYS in a natural state. NOTHING exists outside of nature. Human cultures, human individuals vary widely. ALL are natural states. Some are preferable to others. I'm sure that others on the list may have attended public schools of a similar nature. School culture replicates the values and behaviors of the host culture on a microcosmic scale. As a former member of a parent-teacher cooperative alternative school, I can assure you the behavior you describe is not universal. If anthropology teaches us anything it is that assuming that the traits of one's own culture are universal is stupid. What is my point? Human beings need guidance, direction, and rules to help them grow. None of these things need come from the state. Have you ever read Lord of the Flies? It's fiction. Have you ever read The Dispossessed by Urula LeGuinn? It's also fiction. Collectives in the Spanish Revolution by Gaston Leval, which describes a society much like LeGuinn's, is not. It's an eye witness account of what happens when people cast off the state and run their own lives according to anarchist principles. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- On Sun, 11 Jul 1999, Robert Paul wrote: -Caveat Lector- William Hugh Tunstall wrote: "If there is not a massive restructuring, we're going to see a repeat of the kind of social unrest we saw back in the sixties..." Robert Paul wrote: That's what we need except most will argue for more statism, the very poison that creates poverty. "The state" is here to stay. Why should the wealthiest of Americans eliminate something that serves the interests of monopoly capitalism so well? We haven't even touched on the issue of local governments, local politics...how local businessmen use the power of LOCAL governments to keep competition to a minimum...how LOCAL businesses make sure that cities regulate every aspect of commerce on the small town level. I'm sorry, Mr. Paul. Even IF we could conceivably eliminate all of the fiscal excesses of the bloated, corrupt Federal government, citizens would only encounter similar forms of injustice at the local level. I participated in the civil rights movement years ago, and I remember very well how states, counties, and city municipalities would gleefully violate the civil rights of Americans with impugnity. It was only the power of the federal government that brought an end to the Jim Crow era. If you want to believe that deregulation will usher in some golden age of prosperity for all, you're welcome to believe that, but I don't think that's likely. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- Instaed of a war on poverty, we should declare war on big business. The state is not the problem. Capitalism and businessmen are the problem. Joshua2 Norse Knight wrote: -Caveat Lector- The purpose of the "War on Poverty" wasn't to end poverty but to grow the State. As it has been written "war is the health of the State". The only thing necessary to end poverty is to get the State off Our backs. Robert Paul DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- Absolutely. If there is not a massive restructuring, we're going to see a repeat of the kind of social unrest we saw back in the sixties... On Sun, 11 Jul 1999, Nurev wrote: -Caveat Lector- Instaed of a war on poverty, we should declare war on big business. The state is not the problem. Capitalism and businessmen are the problem. Joshua2 Norse Knight wrote: -Caveat Lector- The purpose of the "War on Poverty" wasn't to end poverty but to grow the State. As it has been written "war is the health of the State". The only thing necessary to end poverty is to get the State off Our backs. Robert Paul DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- Nurev wrote: -Caveat Lector- Instaed of a war on poverty, we should declare war on big business. The state is not the problem. Capitalism and businessmen are the problem. Joshua2 I am insulted! To imply that they are Capitalist. Theonly thing that some of those politicians have capitalized on is other peoples thoughts and work. Just because you have made money does not mean that you have capitalized on your own assists. To steal other peoples thoughts and ideas is plagiarism NOT capitalism. Call a spade a spade, please. Piper Norse Knight wrote: -Caveat Lector- The purpose of the "War on Poverty" wasn't to end poverty but to grow the State. As it has been written "war is the health of the State". The only thing necessary to end poverty is to get the State off Our backs. Robert Paul -- Any man can stand adversity, The true test is to give a man power. http://freeweb.digiweb.com/science_fiction/ThePiedPiper/~frame.htm DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 99-07-11 12:14:52 EDT, you write: Instaed of a war on poverty, we should declare war on big business. The state is not the problem. Capitalism and businessmen are the problem. When you look even further the bankers control the Corporations with their money. Convert the Federal Reserve from a private institution to a bank for the United States and the Corporations will be put in their place sice they no longer will have an endless supply of money. Then, make it illegal for lawyers to hold office and any President, congressperson, Governor, Mayor, or cleck in the government that takes a bribe will go to jail for the rest of their lives, lobbyists included. Then, if you really want to overcome poverty ... when a corporation is loaned money from the US bank ... the shares will go to the workers, not the worthless managers, CEO's and nonworking pukes that steal money from those who do work. Soon there will not be any poverty for those willing to work. Lastly, eliominate the IRS and have a flat 10% sales tax on everything and government can use that money to run government, thereby limiting the power of government (no deficeit spending allowed). Regards, Bob Stokes DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- Joshua2 wrote: "Instead of a war on poverty, we should declare war on big business." I agree if you mean corporate business" "The state is not the problem. Capitalism and businessmen are the problem." The State creates the problem by giving privileges to big business. The word capitalism means many things to many people...if you mean mercantilism you're right. Robert Paul DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- William Hugh Tunstall wrote: "If there is not a massive restructuring, we're going to see a repeat of the kind of social unrest we saw back in the sixties..." That's what we need except most will argue for more statism, the very poison that creates poverty. Robert Paul DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- Piper wrote: "To imply that they are Capitalist. The only thing that some of those politicians have capitalized on is other peoples thoughts and work." Most people have no idea what capitalism is...that ideology has been defined mostly by it's enemies and incompetent supporters. I'd rather use the word free enterprisea separation of state and economics with privileges for none. With un-alienable rights for all instead of regulatable, taxable privileges and licenses. Robert Paul DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- Bob Stokes wrote: "When you look even further the bankers control the Corporations with their money." This is true, but... "Convert the Federal Reserve from a private institution to a bank for the United States" To give that bank a state sanctioned monopoly would still leave power in the hands of the Plutocracy. "and the Corporations will be put in their place" We can put them in their place by ending limited liability and other privileges. "Then, make it illegal for lawyers to hold office" There would be no problem with "liars" holding office if you took away their monopoly and excluded them from legislative or executive office. "the shares will go to the workers," The shares should go to the investors not to political beneficiaries. "eliminate the IRS and have a flat 10% sales tax on everything" Let's just eliminate the IRS and cut government down to size. The constitution provides for all the necessary taxation to support proper government. Robert Paul DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- By DEB RIECHMANN WASHINGTON (AP) - Ever since Lyndon Johnson declared war on poverty 35 years ago, the government has had little success elevating depressed areas like those President Clinton toured this week. Nurturing economic revival in poor pockets of Appalachia, inner cities and the rural South has sometimes proven all but impossible, say some veterans of those wars. More progress has been made among poor people than poor places. "There was never a war on poverty," says Housing Secretary Andrew Cuomo, who went with Clinton on his poverty tour. "Maybe there was a skirmish on poverty for a brief period of time. We have done the broad people- based programs - Social Security, Medicaid, welfare. But we have never done intensive geographically targeted work." Clinton says it's these ignored areas of America that are the untapped markets of tomorrow. He wants Congress to give tax incentives, tax credits and loan guarantees to people who invest there. "I think it's a good thing that we encourage people to invest in Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean, but they ought to have the same incentive to invest in the Mississippi Delta, Appalachia, in the native American reservations and the inner cities," Clinton told people in Clarksdale, Miss. That's been tried, counter the president's critics. "You know how many times we've saved Appalachia?" says Robert Rector, analyst at the conservative Heritage Foundation. "We have the Appalachian Regional Commission. We have the Economic Development Administration. We have community development block grants. We have done this over and over and over again." Doug Besharov, scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, says government money given to communities is sometimes spent unwisely. If it does improve people's status, they often pack up and move out, he says. "I would aim for a people strategy, not a place strategy," he says. James Galbraith, a professor at the University of Texas' Lyndon Baines Johnson School of Public Affairs, commends Clinton for raising awareness about places untouched by the nation's economic boom, but says what begets business activity is building better schools and roads and raising the minimum wage. "If you throw business activity in a region where that does not exist, then you have a sweatshop phenomenon," Galbraith says. Poverty experts agree, however, that many programs aimed at helping individuals have worked. When LBJ declared a war on poverty in his 1964 State of the Union address, 19 percent of the population was living in poverty. By 1997 - the most recent data available - that number had fallen to 13.3 percent of the population. That's one of every seven Americans. Social Security drastically reduced the poverty rate among the elderly. Still, the poverty rate for children remains near 20 percent, a bare improvement from Johnson's day. Johnson took his own poverty tour, visiting tarpaper cabins and meeting with workers. In Inez, Ky., he talked with Tom Fletcher, a jobless father of eight, who made $400 a year scrounging for coal. So intent was their conversation that neither noticed when a gust of wind tore off the door of an outhouse nearby. On another celebrated poverty tour, in the spring of 1967, New York Sen. Robert Kennedy was moved to tears by the squalor he saw in Mississippi. Kennedy's brother-in-law, Sargent Shriver, was Johnson's "Mr. Poverty." Many of the programs launched then remain today - Medicare, Medicaid, Head Start and Job Corps. Their effort, however, stalled during the Vietnam War. Skepticism about the government's ability to solve social problems waned. By the time Ronald Reagan became president, many Americans agreed with him that the government had gotten too big and that solutions should come from the private sector. "President Reagan said the war on poverty was a failure," Shriver said in an interview. "It was not a great success, that's true, because we didn't have the money. I told Lyndon Johnson myself that we needed two or three times the money we had to overcome the problem." Life is better in Appalachia and the Mississippi Delta - a little better. Sociologist Cynthia "Mil" Duncan of the University of New Hampshire, who wrote a book about Appalachia and rural Mississippi, says residents in their 30s and 40s say the quality of their lives has improved. "When they were growing up, they didn't have plumbing in their homes and they lived in really deplorable conditions. Black children were pulled out of school to work in the fields. That doesn't happen anymore," Ms. Duncan said. "People now are living more often in trailers and homes with plumbing." But she adds: "I did interview people in the 1990s in two-room shacks without plumbing, so it's not that it's all fixed." Copyright 1999 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without prior written authority of The Associated Press.
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- The purpose of the "War on Poverty" wasn't to end poverty but to grow the State. As it has been written "war is the health of the State". The only thing necessary to end poverty is to get the State off Our backs. Robert Paul DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- - Original Message - From: Norse Knight [EMAIL PROTECTED] The purpose of the "War on Poverty" wasn't to end poverty but to grow the State. As it has been written "war is the health of the State". The only thing necessary to end poverty is to get the State off Our backs. The greatest growth of the State occurred with the massive military buildups of the Reagan-Bush years, with a concomitant increase in poverty. Ending poverty can be helped by ending military-industrial welfare. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 07/09/1999 8:11:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The purpose of the "War on Poverty" wasn't to end poverty but to grow the State. As it has been written "war is the health of the State". The only thing necessary to end poverty is to get the State off Our backs. Whose poverty will that end? Besides it's not the State on your back since a couple of weeks ago. It's just the States on your back. Never fear. Your dream is coming true. Prudy DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- Ric wrote: "Ending poverty can be helped by ending military-industrial welfare." I agree, Ric, both kinds of welfare add to poverty but will the socialists want to end their sham programs or the nationalists their's? Both have much in common, leftist statism is no different in substance than rightist statism. One uses guilt the other fear. One pretends to help the poor the other the national interest...I say to hell with the both of them. Robert Paul DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- Prudy wrote: "Whose poverty will that end?" Most are poor because of illegitimate government actions...those are the ones. "Besides it's not the State on your back since a couple of weeks ago." I'm not sure what you mean. "It's just the States on your back." They are ALL on Our back. I don't care which criminal group has a gun in my face, any time the "government" steps out side of their authority they are no different than any other organized crime group except for the sanction their victims give them. "Never fear. Your dream is coming true." OK. How so? DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 07/09/1999 9:18:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: OK. How so? Just give the latest Rehnquist Court decisions a few months to get around, and you will see. Prudy DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- I say to hell with the both of them. Absolutely. But let's think long, hard, and above all realistically about how we dismantle them. If we rip the safety net out from under even a comparitively rich a society like America, where one of five people still has trouble paying the family bills, without first making a safety net unnecessary, there will be social unrest the likes of which the world has never seen. To rip what meager safety net there is from the rest of the world is, for the moment at least, genocide. To shut of corporate welfare to the military industrial complex without first retooling for peace will crash the economy and throw more people into the street than ripping off the safety net. Talk about social unrest! Phew! And speaking of safety, let's keep in mind that on a world in as sorry a state as ours is in it is not possible to disarm unless all forces do it together. Anything else will bring war. America in particular must take care because the preditory transnational capitalists based here have made a lot of enemies around the world, not all of which are politically sophisticated enough not to blame the American people for the crimes of our ruling class, some of which we too suffer from. There are no national solutions to global problems, least of all making the world into a single nation state. The nation state must die in the mind of humanity before we can all live in peace and plenty, but the corporation must die with it or we're out of the frying pan into the fire. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] War on Poverty Yields Few Victories
-Caveat Lector- Nessie wrote: "Absolutely. But let's think long, hard, and above all realistically about how we dismantle them." Yes, it won't be easy; I don't think that dismantling the welfare-warfare State can be done collectively.There are things that one can do individually, we need to encourage each other in that direction. "let's keep in mind that on a world in as sorry a state as ours is in it is not possible to disarm unless all forces do it together." That'll never happen, the Plutocrats that orchestrate these "forces" won't stop until They take the World or until We stop financing them. "America in particular must take care because the predatory transnational capitalists based here" Yes, this is true. The Ugly American is the mask the Plutocrats wear to rape the World. "There are no national solutions to global problems," There are some national solutions...if we wait for the World nothing will happen. "least of all making the world into a single nation state." This is true, if we ever get a World State it will mean universal slavery. "The nation state must die in the mind of humanity before we can all live in peace and plenty," Yes, statism must die in ALL it's forms before that can happen (even one's favorite version). "but the corporation must die with it or we're out of the frying pan into the fire." I agree, the corporation is the State's most evil creation. These fictitious "persons" plunder with the privilege of limited liability. A Frankenstein's Monster that feeds on greed and death. Whose fault is that but our own...we all seek our State granted privileges. The government should not have the ability to grant any privilege but that's one way they maintain their authority... Robert Paul DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
