Re: [CTRL] What really is NLP?
-Caveat Lector- From: Sno0wl [EMAIL PROTECTED] The downside is the very human need to "belong"--a need that all these groups play on shamelessly, as do traditional religions-- and once you've found the autonomyand developed that cynicism about groups that these experiences engenderwell,you can't be a belonger. In a sense you've found both autonomy and safety == Guess what. Loose nit alliances between autonomous individuals DO exist and some of them have the gall to practice NLP. __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] What really is NLP? [reply]
-Caveat Lector- On 7 Sep 99, , Das wrote: In the late '60s and early '70s I travelled on the periphery of the inner circles out of which came the "New Age," first wave, and I personally witnessed --VERY personally, e.g., in private conversations with many of the notables, who confided in me as "one of them"-- attitudes and behaviors which, if made publicly known then, would have immediately resulted in the founders of most "New Age" groups being seen as knowing, cold-blooded manipulators of people's belief systems for ego, personal power, and for profit above all. As early as 1971, I watched "supersalesman" Jack Rosenbaum aka "Werner Erhard" steal most of what he claimed to have discovered from Silva Mind Control, Alexander Everett's Mind Dynamics, and Scientology and go on to create the first EST seminars; I worked with the person whom Erhard himself had early on groomed to be his protege, on an alternative (and rival praxis) to EST that would've been less cult-like, because it was even by then already recognized as a hyped-marketing mindfuck, with most of its members eerily zombie-like, classic cult-followers of the type that DEFINED the "New Age" that would follow as they wandered on from one "spiritual" movement to another. Back then, I kept company not only with ESToids but with Scientologists (not much difference in psychology and behavior) -- but with the advantage of also knowing L. Ron Hubbard's literary agent, his publisher, his business partner from the days of Dianetics (A. E. van Vogt, who wrote a textbook on hypnosis), and several of Hubbard's first "Operating Thetans," as well as dissatisfied people who had operated in Scientology's "internal security" division, the Guardian's office. As usual, I observed the dissonance between three realms: (1) the con-man mentality and motives of the founder and his closest allies, (2) the uncritical faith and devotion of his students and followers (almost worshipful in a manner deliberately promoted by the founder), and then, judgable in a separate category, (3) the "system" being taught, always with some merit in and of itself but always used primarily as just a platform for developing a profitable marketing machine, a pool of cult-followers to serve the founder's ego-needs, and an authoritarian social structure that served as a private universe totally defined by the founder's needs. BRAVO!!! Goat.Sounds like we've been in a lot of the same places and have drawn much the same conclusions. The downside is the very human need to "belong"--a need that all these groups play on shamelessly, as do traditional religions-- and once you've found the autonomy and developed that cynicism about groups that these experiences engenderwell, you can't be a belonger. In a sense you've found both autonomy and safetybut it's a little lonely out there. sno0wl DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] What really is NLP? [reply]
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 99-09-06 15:01:36 EDT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have met many of the NLP enthusiasts that exist in Northern California. North California, you may know, has been the international hotbed for NLP development for some time. None of the individuals I have met could be construed in ANY sense of the word to be followers, which is a necessary element in a cult; without followers, there is no cult. In the late '60s and early '70s I travelled on the periphery of the inner circles out of which came the "New Age," first wave, and I personally witnessed --VERY personally, e.g., in private conversations with many of the notables, who confided in me as "one of them"-- attitudes and behaviors which, if made publicly known then, would have immediately resulted in the founders of most "New Age" groups being seen as knowing, cold-blooded manipulators of people's belief systems for ego, personal power, and for profit above all. As early as 1971, I watched "supersalesman" Jack Rosenbaum aka "Werner Erhard" steal most of what he claimed to have discovered from Silva Mind Control, Alexander Everett's Mind Dynamics, and Scientology and go on to create the first EST seminars; I worked with the person whom Erhard himself had early on groomed to be his protege, on an alternative (and rival praxis) to EST that would've been less cult-like, because it was even by then already recognized as a hyped-marketing mindfuck, with most of its members eerily zombie-like, classic cult-followers of the type that DEFINED the "New Age" that would follow as they wandered on from one "spiritual" movement to another. Back then, I kept company not only with ESToids but with Scientologists (not much difference in psychology and behavior) -- but with the advantage of also knowing L. Ron Hubbard's literary agent, his publisher, his business partner from the days of Dianetics (A. E. van Vogt, who wrote a textbook on hypnosis), and several of Hubbard's first "Operating Thetans," as well as dissatisfied people who had operated in Scientology's "internal security" division, the Guardian's office. As usual, I observed the dissonance between three realms: (1) the con-man mentality and motives of the founder and his closest allies, (2) the uncritical faith and devotion of his students and followers (almost worshipful in a manner deliberately promoted by the founder), and then, judgable in a separate category, (3) the "system" being taught, always with some merit in and of itself but always used primarily as just a platform for developing a profitable marketing machine, a pool of cult-followers to serve the founder's ego-needs, and an authoritarian social structure that served as a private universe totally defined by the founder's needs. The psychodynamics of "cultism" was THE RULE in the late '60s and throughout the '70s, into the early '80s, and the ONLY thing that kept "New Age" movements afloat -- and I say that from having INVESTIGATED those seminal movements at VERY close range, "sociologically," because I had studied the same esoteric techniques and skills as the founders and leaders of those movements --and had to struggle to avoid being turned into a "guru" myself by starry-eyed novices-- but I was committed to using them in a totally OPPOSITE way, to DE-program the mind (contra the momentum of these followers to BE programmed) and encourage AUTONOMY rather than authoritarianism under the common disguise of the "master/disciple" relationship. During this period, I breathed a sigh of relief when I read an interview with Sufi "master" Idries Shah in Psychology Today wherein he stated that, himself being perceived by other Oriental "gurus" in the "New Age" marketplace as "one of them" and therefore safe to be frank with, most of the highly-revered "Masters of Wisdom of the East" were in fact motivated by the basest instincts -- greed (big money), lust (satisfied with submissive Western devotees), and blatant anti-Western hostility, aimed at "paying back" Americans and Europeans for colonizing and exploiting the Orient. I'd seen the same motives (less the anti-Western element) at work, behind closed doors, in MOST "New Age" promoters. In the late '70s and early '80s, when I turned from "para" psychology to psychology as an academic discipline, I witnessed the "yuppification" of these "New Age" movements. Nearly everyone who was anyone in the arena (writing popular books, holding seminars, travelling the New Age Expo circuit) would confide to me, in private, that this was all a "business" and that ignorance and gullibility offered the biggest untapped market base for entrepreneurs of the esoteric. I knew all that they knew, and generally even more, but I had no desire to capitalize on it by developing "pyramid schemes" exploiting the silly needs of those populating the "New Age" mass-market, whom I frankly despised for their gullibility, easy hypnotizability, and lack of psychological and spiritual autonomy
Re: [CTRL] What really is NLP? [reply]
-Caveat Lector- I talked with the local head of psychology at the Rand university. The weighted opinion of testing in controlled situations is that where it makes scientific testable claims, it fails the test. (he said the positive benefits of the primal scream are also not validated) He however awaits new tests and had an open mind, but to his knowledge it was basically bunk. -Original Message- From: Das GOAT [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 07 September 1999 11:26 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [CTRL] What really is NLP? [reply] -Caveat Lector- In a message dated 99-09-06 15:01:36 EDT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have met many of the NLP enthusiasts that exist in Northern California. North California, you may know, has been the international hotbed for NLP development for some time. None of the individuals I have met could be construed in ANY sense of the word to be followers, which is a necessary element in a cult; without followers, there is no cult. In the late '60s and early '70s I travelled on the periphery of the inner circles out of which came the "New Age," first wave, and I personally witnessed --VERY personally, e.g., in private conversations with many of the notables, who confided in me as "one of them"-- attitudes and behaviors which, if made publicly known then, would have immediately resulted in the founders of most "New Age" groups being seen as knowing, cold-blooded manipulators of people's belief systems for ego, personal power, and for profit above all. As early as 1971, I watched "supersalesman" Jack Rosenbaum aka "Werner Erhard" steal most of what he claimed to have discovered from Silva Mind Control, Alexander Everett's Mind Dynamics, and Scientology and go on to create the first EST seminars; I worked with the person whom Erhard himself had early on groomed to be his protege, on an alternative (and rival praxis) to EST that would've been less cult-like, because it was even by then already recognized as a hyped-marketing mindfuck, with most of its members eerily zombie-like, classic cult-followers of the type that DEFINED the "New Age" that would follow as they wandered on from one "spiritual" movement to another. Back then, I kept company not only with ESToids but with Scientologists (not much difference in psychology and behavior) -- but with the advantage of also knowing L. Ron Hubbard's literary agent, his publisher, his business partner from the days of Dianetics (A. E. van Vogt, who wrote a textbook on hypnosis), and several of Hubbard's first "Operating Thetans," as well as dissatisfied people who had operated in Scientology's "internal security" division, the Guardian's office. As usual, I observed the dissonance between three realms: (1) the con-man mentality and motives of the founder and his closest allies, (2) the uncritical faith and devotion of his students and followers (almost worshipful in a manner deliberately promoted by the founder), and then, judgable in a separate category, (3) the "system" being taught, always with some merit in and of itself but always used primarily as just a platform for developing a profitable marketing machine, a pool of cult-followers to serve the founder's ego-needs, and an authoritarian social structure that served as a private universe totally defined by the founder's needs. The psychodynamics of "cultism" was THE RULE in the late '60s and throughout the '70s, into the early '80s, and the ONLY thing that kept "New Age" movements afloat -- and I say that from having INVESTIGATED those seminal movements at VERY close range, "sociologically," because I had studied the same esoteric techniques and skills as the founders and leaders of those movements --and had to struggle to avoid being turned into a "guru" myself by starry-eyed novices-- but I was committed to using them in a totally OPPOSITE way, to DE-program the mind (contra the momentum of these followers to BE programmed) and encourage AUTONOMY rather than authoritarianism under the common disguise of the "master/disciple" relationship. During this period, I breathed a sigh of relief when I read an interview with Sufi "master" Idries Shah in Psychology Today wherein he stated that, himself being perceived by other Oriental "gurus" in the "New Age" marketplace as "one of them" and therefore safe to be frank with, most of the highly-revered "Masters of Wisdom of the East" were in fact motivated by the basest instincts -- greed (big money), lust (satisfied with submissive Western devotees), and blatant anti-Western hostility, aimed at "paying back" Americans and Europeans for colonizing and exploiting the Orient. I'd seen the same motives (less the anti-Western element) at work, behind closed doors, in MOST "New Age" promoters. DECLARATI
Re: [CTRL] What really is NLP? [reply]
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 99-09-05 13:55:14 EDT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: because the devisers of NLP --Bandler Grinder-- clearly and explicitly created their system as a way of "pinning down" the extraordinary abilitity of one man, Dr Milton Erickson, to "hypnotize." Mnsr Chevre, can you please, elaborate on this? Sounds interesting. The best portrait of Dr Milton Erickson's methods --as much instinctive (seemingly "psychic") as calculated-- is Jay Haley's "Uncommon Therapy," 1986, Norton Co. Dr Erickson, a private practitioner specializing in Medical Hypnosis who in his later years operated out of Arizona, can be thought of as the "Einstein" of hypnosis. His uncanny grasp of subconscious thought processes and his recognition of the key role played by subtle vocal shifts in hypnotic communication, among other things, led to a virtual revolution in the rather "Newtonian" realm of hypnosis, until then (and alas, even now, mostly) dominated by "stage hypnotists" who really knew no more about the psychodynamics of trance than the pioneers in that field back in the 19th Century. Most of Erickson's insights were discovered simply by his own keen observation of others when he found himself an invalid confined to bed (with polio, I believe) early in his career. He was very much an empathetic "people person" extraordinarily capable of "tuning in" to others while simply talking to them in the normal course of therapy, and his sharp eye (and especially ear) took note of the slightest changes in body language, voice pattern, breathing rhythm, etc, accompanying each subconscious responses, so that, after many years of such observations, he was able to DIRECT those responses, in the same way that a tuning fork can cause other tuning forks to resonate in harmony. Another gift of Erickson's was his unique ability to JOIN his patients in the so-called "trance" state, even while supervising the subject's hypnotic work, so great was his understanding of hypnotic processes from his OWN EXPERIENCE of them -- something that put him in a category all by himself, compared to the clumsy "stage hypnotists." Erickson attended U. of Wisconsin in the '20s, majoring in psychology, and received a medical degree at Colorado General Hospital. In the '30s he became a psychiatrist and held positions in Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and finally in Michigan, where he was a director of psychiatric research and training as well as an instructor in graduate school. In 1948 he moved to Phoenix, Arizona, for his health, and began a private practice in psychotherapy which included the use of clinical hypnosis. A Fellow of the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association, he founded the American Society for Clinical Hypnosis, also editing its scientific journal on hypnosis. In the '50s he toured the country giving seminars in hypnosis for medical professionals. When Dr Gregory Bateson (a researcher into communication) and wife Margaret Mead filmed instances of "trance-dancing" in Bali, they turned to Milton Erickson --there being no greater expert in the field-- for help in correctly interpreting the phenomena observed. Bateson introduced Jay Haley (above) to Erickson in '53, and thereafter his fame grew. I am not aware of any wider participation by Erickson in Bateson's "Human Ecology" project, which some claim was CIA-funded and -controlled. (In my view, Bateson is one of the most brilliant minds of our age, alongside Buckminster Fuller, and I can't imagine him being "controlled" by ANYONE, especially for nefarious ends.) Erickson devoted most of his time to his practice and to hypnotic research, duly recorded in his Journal. All this can be found in "The Complete Works of Dr Milton Erickson," published in at least twelve thick volumes (some with accompanying audio cassettes so that one can study the VOCAL element in hypnotic inductions) published sometime in the mid '70s. (The Erickson Institute of Hypnosis, run by his daughter, may still sell these volumes.) In his later years (he died in 1980), Dr Erickson was visited by unknowns Bandler and Grinder, who (I believe) had helped in preparation of Erickson's "Complete Works" and who pressed him to teach them his "secrets," in order to preserve these "for posterity." They asked him to explain in detail what he did and exactly how he did it -- so that his spontaneous, quasi-instinctive and individually tailored techniques could be turned into a "science" for wider application (in what became "Neurolinguistic Programming," Bandler Grinder's own little private moneymaking machine -- what some might call a "cult." ) So, Erickson's empathetic resonance with each individual patient was reduced to a rote formula exercised with everyone (broken down into certain pigeonholed "types"), and his sensitivity to (even MERGING with) subconscious thought processes in the distressed was replaced by the NLP practitioner's "automated" flowcharting of
Re: [CTRL] What really is NLP? [reply]
-Caveat Lector- Thanks for the excellent synopsis Goat! DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] What really is NLP? [reply]
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 9/6/99 1:54:06 AM, you wrote: Thanks for the excellent synopsis Goat! Hear, hear, Thanks. A good day , blessings. Om K DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] What really is NLP? [reply]
-Caveat Lector- Original Message Follows From: Das GOAT [EMAIL PROTECTED] In his later years (he died in 1980), Dr Erickson was visited by unknowns Bandler and Grinder, who (I believe) had helped in preparation of Erickson's "Complete Works" and who pressed him to teach them his "secrets," in order to preserve these "for posterity." They asked him to explain in detail what he did and exactly how he did it -- so that his spontaneous, quasi-instinctive and individually tailored techniques could be turned into a "science" for wider application (in what became "Neurolinguistic Programming," Bandler Grinder's own little private moneymaking machine -- what some might call a "cult." ) == I respond: I have met many of the NLP enthusiasts that exist in Northern California. North California, you may know, has been the international hotbed for NLP development for some time. None of the individuals I have met could be construed in ANY sense of the word to be followers, which is a necessary element in a cult; without followers, there is no cult. == So, Erickson's empathetic resonance with each individual patient was reduced to a rote formula exercised with everyone (broken down into certain pigeonholed "types"), and his sensitivity to (even MERGING with) subconscious thought processes in the distressed was replaced by the NLP practitioner's "automated" flowcharting of "system strategies." == I respond: Bandler and Grinder state, many times throughout their books, that NLP is not so effective if reduced to a mere system of doctoring. They often state that it is merely a by-product of being earnestly interested in fostering the kinds of spaces that Erickson was fond of. Being aware of the techniques [there being a practically endless amount of ways to use speech to stress common ground as opposed to using it to highlight differences] is not enough to be good at it. One must so desire that it succeed that one spends some truly attentive time in observing the dynamics of unity. Erickson, as they mentioned, PRACTICED fostering connectedness between individuals so much that much of what we would call a technique became merely an unconscious personality trait, something that became such a habit [seeking understanding between himself and his fellow conversant] that it flowed seemingly quite naturally. It became the only way he WANTED to do things and so it became all he did, through practice. This point Bandler and Grinder stress over and over. This brings me to the idea that Bandler and Grinder are greedy capitalists. I have, at times, been quite emeshed in the holistic, naturopathic, new-agey circuit that dominates much of the western United States. One of things that I have come to understand, through living at a resort that specialized in such thingss, is that there are a vast amount of Americans that simply DO NOT VALUE something if they haven't paid through the nose for it. As such, a vast majority of what we might call healing arts simply WILL NOT WORK without the participants actually earnestly wanting to get something out of it, which often will not happen if they do not give something of considerable value for it. == I'm just cynical about NLP being put up on a pedestal and treated as if the equal of clinical hypnosis in the hands of a psychotherapist with sensitive, humane instincts, like Milton Erickson, from whom the ONLY grains of truth in Neuro Linguistic Programming were ripped off -- by two "New Age Capitalists," yuppie con men, who ABUSED the mind FOR PROFIT. == I respond: I know people who have been taught by them and these people helped me a lot. If Bandler and Grinder are greedy, then so be it. It is absolutely no reflection on NLP as a tool. == I hold NLP responsible for a de-individualizing of the psyche in "quick fixes" instead of humane hypnotherapy, and for "mechanizing" communications with the subconscious in such a way as to dehumanize what is most human in its idiosyncrasy. == I respond: I have never seen NLP as a quick fix; in fact I have seen it as quite an endeavor, requiring active participation in discovering one's own motivations for doing some things. I am not sure where you had the idea that it is some two-hour cure all session. It is not. Also, NLP is a tool. Do you hold the tank responsible for the agent that directed it to plow into the Mt. Carmel community? == Dr Erickson was first and foremost a kindly, wise
Re: [CTRL] What really is NLP? [reply]
-Caveat Lector- Thank you, Mr. Goat. I rest my case. Jean At 05:38 AM 9/6/99 EDT, Das GOAT wrote: -Caveat Lector- In a message dated 99-09-05 13:55:14 EDT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: because the devisers of NLP --Bandler Grinder-- clearly and explicitly created their system as a way of "pinning down" the extraordinary abilitity of one man, Dr Milton Erickson, to "hypnotize." Mnsr Chevre, can you please, elaborate on this? Sounds interesting. The best portrait of Dr Milton Erickson's methods --as much instinctive (seemingly "psychic") as calculated-- is Jay Haley's "Uncommon Therapy," 1986, Norton Co. Dr Erickson, a private practitioner specializing in Medical Hypnosis who in his later years operated out of Arizona, can be thought of as the "Einstein" of hypnosis. His uncanny grasp of subconscious thought processes and his recognition of the key role played by subtle vocal shifts in hypnotic communication, among other things, led to a virtual revolution in the rather "Newtonian" realm of hypnosis, until then (and alas, even now, mostly) dominated by "stage hypnotists" who really knew no more about the psychodynamics of trance than the pioneers in that field back in the 19th Century. Most of Erickson's insights were discovered simply by his own keen observation of others when he found himself an invalid confined to bed (with polio, I believe) early in his career. He was very much an empathetic "people person" extraordinarily capable of "tuning in" to others while simply talking to them in the normal course of therapy, and his sharp eye (and especially ear) took note of the slightest changes in body language, voice pattern, breathing rhythm, etc, accompanying each subconscious responses, so that, after many years of such observations, he was able to DIRECT those responses, in the same way that a tuning fork can cause other tuning forks to resonate in harmony. Another gift of Erickson's was his unique ability to JOIN his patients in the so-called "trance" state, even while supervising the subject's hypnotic work, so great was his understanding of hypnotic processes from his OWN EXPERIENCE of them -- something that put him in a category all by himself, compared to the clumsy "stage hypnotists." Erickson attended U. of Wisconsin in the '20s, majoring in psychology, and received a medical degree at Colorado General Hospital. In the '30s he became a psychiatrist and held positions in Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and finally in Michigan, where he was a director of psychiatric research and training as well as an instructor in graduate school. In 1948 he moved to Phoenix, Arizona, for his health, and began a private practice in psychotherapy which included the use of clinical hypnosis. A Fellow of the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association, he founded the American Society for Clinical Hypnosis, also editing its scientific journal on hypnosis. In the '50s he toured the country giving seminars in hypnosis for medical professionals. When Dr Gregory Bateson (a researcher into communication) and wife Margaret Mead filmed instances of "trance-dancing" in Bali, they turned to Milton Erickson --there being no greater expert in the field-- for help in correctly interpreting the phenomena observed. Bateson introduced Jay Haley (above) to Erickson in '53, and thereafter his fame grew. I am not aware of any wider participation by Erickson in Bateson's "Human Ecology" project, which some claim was CIA-funded and -controlled. (In my view, Bateson is one of the most brilliant minds of our age, alongside Buckminster Fuller, and I can't imagine him being "controlled" by ANYONE, especially for nefarious ends.) Erickson devoted most of his time to his practice and to hypnotic research, duly recorded in his Journal. All this can be found in "The Complete Works of Dr Milton Erickson," published in at least twelve thick volumes (some with accompanying audio cassettes so that one can study the VOCAL element in hypnotic inductions) published sometime in the mid '70s. (The Erickson Institute of Hypnosis, run by his daughter, may still sell these volumes.) In his later years (he died in 1980), Dr Erickson was visited by unknowns Bandler and Grinder, who (I believe) had helped in preparation of Erickson's "Complete Works" and who pressed him to teach them his "secrets," in order to preserve these "for posterity." They asked him to explain in detail what he did and exactly how he did it -- so that his spontaneous, quasi-instinctive and individually tailored techniques could be turned into a "science" for wider application (in what became "Neurolinguistic Programming," Bandler Grinder's own little private moneymaking machine -- what some might call a "cult." ) So, Erickson's empathetic resonance with each individual patient was reduced to a rote formula exercised with everyone (broken down into certain pigeonholed "types"), and his sensitivity
Re: [CTRL] What really is NLP?
-Caveat Lector- On 4 Sep 99, , Jean wrote: -Caveat Lector- According to a friend of mine who studied NLP, with an eye to setting up a practice, it was devised by the CIA as a means of "interrogation". Neurolinguistic Programming is a variant on mind control techniques in that it installs "alters" to carry out certain tasks and "anchors" or trigger words to evoke certain programmed behavior. It was first used in the private sector to enable salesmen to determine their customers' archilles heels. NLP is a nasty, mind-messing bit of business that began and remains in the very worst hands. Gregory Bateson did the seminal work on the NLP process. From time immemorial there have been books and systems that advance the idea that you can "Win Friends and Influence People," Seduce the Man/Woman of Your Dreams, Exercise Control Over Others and Get Your Way (And A Lot of Money, too.) etc. NLP has always been sold as one of these methods to "give you control over your life (and others). It is a system of mind control, but then so is yoga and every other system of Self Control. NLP may be a little more manipulative--but I don't think it has ever pretended to be anything else. What is the difference between Mind Control--where you are surreptitiously controlled by someone else.and Self Control--where you control yourself and try to influence others to do your bidding and do it Your Way? Every salesman uses this kind of Mind Control. Many people are naturally talented in manipulation of others. Sometimes we say they have "charisma." The ability to manipulate and "influence" others is certainly an element in creating what we define as "success" in America. I think you have to draw the line somewhere. Certainly NLP is blatantly manipulatuve, but is NLP really that sinister? sno0wl DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] What really is NLP?
-Caveat Lector- According to a friend of mine who studied NLP, with an eye to setting up a practice, it was devised by the CIA as a means of "interrogation". Neurolinguistic Programming is a variant on mind control techniques in that it installs "alters" to carry out certain tasks and "anchors" or trigger words to evoke certain programmed behavior. It was first used in the private sector to enable salesmen to determine their customers' archilles heels. NLP is a nasty, mind-messing bit of business that began and remains in the very worst hands. Gregory Bateson did the seminal work on the NLP process. Jean -- At 09:36 PM 9/4/99 -0500, Gus Delao wrote: -Caveat Lector- -Original Message- From: Wayne Skews [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 12:38 AM To: Ncnculture-L (E-mail) Subject: RE: Aphorism 210 and mental symptoms " in all cases of disease ...the state of the patient's disposition is to be particularly noted ." . In 211 he states, "... the state of the DISPOSITION of the patient often chiefly determines", sounds like NLP ..and if you can change your dispostion (state) then it must affect or change a whole bunch of other things. Wayne By the way, does anybody knows what really NLP is? Is it just another kind of mental control? Or is it more spiritual and truly healing? Thanks, Gustavo. _ Do You Yahoo!? Obtenga su dirección de correo-e gratis @yahoo.com en http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] What really is NLP?
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 99-09-05 03:10:04 EDT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: According to a friend of mine who studied NLP, with an eye to setting up a practice, it was devised by the CIA as a means of "interrogation". Neurolinguistic Programming is a variant on mind control techniques in that it installs "alters" to carry out certain tasks and "anchors" or trigger words to evoke certain programmed behavior. It was first used in the private sector to enable salesmen to determine their customers' archilles heels. NLP is a nasty, mind-messing bit of business that began and remains in the very worst hands. Gregory Bateson did the seminal work on the NLP process. I'd like to see some corroboration for these assertions, because the devisers of NLP --Bandler Grinder-- clearly and explicitly created their system as a way of "pinning down" the extraordinary abilitity of one man, Dr Milton Erickson, to "hypnotize." There are dozens of volumes published by the NLP founders detailing their project to do so. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] What really is NLP?
-Caveat Lector- Original Message Follows From: Gus Delao [EMAIL PROTECTED] By the way, does anybody knows what really NLP is? Is it just another kind of mental control? Or is it more spiritual and truly healing? Thanks, Gustavo. _ I can vouch personally that NLP at least CAN be a powerful healing set of techniques. Like anything, it is a tool that cannot choose how it is used. __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] What really is NLP?
-Caveat Lector- Original Message Follows From: Jean Staffen [EMAIL PROTECTED] NLP is a nasty, mind-messing bit of business that began and remains in the very worst hands. Gregory Bateson did the seminal work on the NLP process. Jean -- The premier writers and tutors of NLP have written a multitude of books on the subject. Read it and judge for yourself and know that until you do, all else is hearsay. They are two writers that usually write together. One of their names is Richard Bandler and the other escapes me. A good book to read to understand it is called "Trance-formations." __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] What really is NLP?
-Caveat Lector- Original Message Follows From: Das GOAT [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'd like to see some corroboration for these assertions, because the devisers of NLP --Bandler Grinder-- clearly and explicitly created their system as a way of "pinning down" the extraordinary abilitity of one man, Dr Milton Erickson, to "hypnotize." There are dozens of volumes published by the NLP founders detailing their project to do so. == Truly. I have known dozens of practitioners and none of them were of the mind-control typem, many of them being decidedly anti-government. It is quite openly practiced in some places in the United States as a therapy tool. To give an example of an NLP technique [a rather simple one]: consider the fact that every day a multitude of things occurs that has never happened in the world. consider also that in many ways, humanity is simply repeating the same patterns over and over in different ways. one could say that nothing changes and, in a sense, one would be correct. yet in another sense, things are always changing. say you are involved in a debate about the subject [and this is where NLP comes in, being a communication tool]. someone asserts that nothing ever changes and you believe that things are in constant flux. yet you recognize that both stances are true, each from its own standpoint. a typical response to the said person would be something like "yes BUT i see things change every day." in stating your view in this way you invite argument by merely using the word "but." that particular contraction is one of confrontation, one of objection. if you instead answer "yes AND i see things change too," you have stated your viewpoint without using the quite invalidating "but" dagger. yes it is subtle and to some it may seem trivial but in practicing speech in this way, we foster an environment conducive to acceptance of others' opinions while not assuming that one must be right and one must be wrong. in this way, merely being exceptionally conscious of how we speak and respond to people, we foster unity, if only subtly. we don't control another this way, we merely make it clear that we are open to others' opinions yet our own remains unchanged. offering the opportunity to have one's opinion deemed valid, even if not agreed to, in offering the initiative in the endeavor of unity, we encourage a space that can be exceptionally healing. it is quite an earth-shaking event when one realizes that we DO indeed have the tools at our fingertips for getting along, when we realize that an opinion contrary to our own is not even remotely an invalidation of your own. we see here that tolerance leads to peace. __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
