Re: [darktable-user] Recommended processing order

[Martin Straeten]

There’s no one size fits it all - if you need information of cropped areas 
you’d better crop late in your workflow, otherwise crop early.
For a beginner it’s ok to recommend late cropping so nothing is out of view too 
early. Hopping back and forward to adjust an improper cropping eats more 
performance than you’ll win with an early cropping. 
An experienced user usually doesn’t need to follow a beginners workflow ;)
Don’t expect a manual to describe workflows for each level of experience…

> Am 08.08.2022 um 21:26 schrieb Len Philpot :
> 
>  For what it's worth I find that cropping early on enhances my workflow. I 
> don't have a fire breathing computer, so rendering (if not analyzing?) less 
> of the image possibly (?) bumps performance just a little. But mainly, 
> getting rid of content that I know I don't want and getting the image 
> fundamentally more as I do it want it helps me perform the remaining edits 
> with a bit more clarity.
> 
> YMMV.
> 
> Len Philpot
>> On 2022-08-08 13:43, Remco Viëtor wrote:
>>> On lundi 8 août 2022 20:35:52 CEST Terry Pinfold wrote:
>>> Just looking at the DT pipeline and I see cropping is placed before filmic.
>>> For most images I doubt that cropping would have a significant effect on
>>> tone mapping, but if it is obvious that it would then do it early in the
>>> processing steps.
>> No, cropping has no effect on the tone mapping (other than that you may want 
>> to adjust the black and white reference; depending on what you cropped out).
>> 
>> So if you want, you can start your editing with cropping. Just be aware that 
>> certain other operations may require you to disable the module temporarily 
>> or 
>> force you to review your crop.
>> 
>> Remco
>> 
>> 
>> 
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>> 
> 
> 
>  
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[darktable-user] Collections module

[Bruce Williams]

Hi all,
Not sure if something has changed with v4, or if it's user error on my
part, but my Collections module seems to now only search on uncatgeorized
or parent tags, but will not search for child tags.
Have I done something to cause this?
Can I get back the ability to search tags and have child tags included in
the results?
Cheers,
Bruce Williams
--
Shutters Inc podcast , the world's
best-loved photography podcast

Understanding darktable
 on youtube

e-mail  | Twitter  |
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| Quora 


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Re: [darktable-user] Recommended processing order

[Len Philpot]

For what it's worth I find that cropping early on enhances my workflow. 
I don't have a fire breathing computer, so rendering (if not analyzing?) 
less of the image possibly (?) bumps performance just a little. But 
mainly, getting rid of content that I know I don't want and getting the 
image fundamentally more as I do it want it helps me perform the 
remaining edits with a bit more clarity.


YMMV.

*Len Philpot*
On 2022-08-08 13:43, Remco Viëtor wrote:

On lundi 8 août 2022 20:35:52 CEST Terry Pinfold wrote:

Just looking at the DT pipeline and I see cropping is placed before filmic.
For most images I doubt that cropping would have a significant effect on
tone mapping, but if it is obvious that it would then do it early in the
processing steps.

No, cropping has no effect on the tone mapping (other than that you may want
to adjust the black and white reference; depending on what you cropped out).

So if you want, you can start your editing with cropping. Just be aware that
certain other operations may require you to disable the module temporarily or
force you to review your crop.

Remco



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Re: [darktable-user] Recommended processing order

[Remco Viëtor]

On lundi 8 août 2022 20:35:52 CEST Terry Pinfold wrote:
> Just looking at the DT pipeline and I see cropping is placed before filmic.
> For most images I doubt that cropping would have a significant effect on
> tone mapping, but if it is obvious that it would then do it early in the
> processing steps.

No, cropping has no effect on the tone mapping (other than that you may want 
to adjust the black and white reference; depending on what you cropped out).

So if you want, you can start your editing with cropping. Just be aware that 
certain other operations may require you to disable the module temporarily or 
force you to review your crop.

Remco



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Re: [darktable-user] Recommended processing order

[Terry Pinfold]

Just looking at the DT pipeline and I see cropping is placed before filmic.
For most images I doubt that cropping would have a significant effect on
tone mapping, but if it is obvious that it would then do it early in the
processing steps.

I am sure reaching consensus on what to write in the manual is difficult
because we all like to do things differently.

On Tue, 9 Aug 2022 at 04:10, Mikael Ståldal  wrote:

> On 2022-08-08 19:06, Remco Viëtor wrote:
> > On lundi 8 août 2022 18:16:55 CEST David Vincent-Jones wrote:
> >> My first objective with raw data is to establish the outline and tones
> >> of the final image. I use perspective control and cropping prior to any
> >> other function. Where these modules come in the 'pipeline' is really of
> >> little importance to me. The 'frame' of the image is key to all further
> >> processing..
>
> >   As I said elsewhere, some modules are better applied before cropping.
> > Among these are "lens correction" (it often deforms the image, which van
> > require small corrections to the crop) and "retouch" (where you can only
> use
> > source regions you can see...)
>
> True. However, I don't see why tone and color adjustments (Exposure,
> Filmic RGB, Color Balance RGB, ...) are better applied before cropping.
> And I wouldn't consider cropping to be some esoteric "createive
> adjustment" which beginners can defer learning about until later, it's a
> very basic part of image processing (and Darktable does not do it
> differently from most other software).
>
> So the user manual is a bit misleading IMHO.
>
> 
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Re: [darktable-user] Recommended processing order

[Mikael Ståldal]

On 2022-08-08 19:06, Remco Viëtor wrote:

On lundi 8 août 2022 18:16:55 CEST David Vincent-Jones wrote:

My first objective with raw data is to establish the outline and tones
of the final image. I use perspective control and cropping prior to any
other function. Where these modules come in the 'pipeline' is really of
little importance to me. The 'frame' of the image is key to all further
processing..



  As I said elsewhere, some modules are better applied before cropping.
Among these are "lens correction" (it often deforms the image, which van
require small corrections to the crop) and "retouch" (where you can only use
source regions you can see...)


True. However, I don't see why tone and color adjustments (Exposure, 
Filmic RGB, Color Balance RGB, ...) are better applied before cropping. 
And I wouldn't consider cropping to be some esoteric "createive 
adjustment" which beginners can defer learning about until later, it's a 
very basic part of image processing (and Darktable does not do it 
differently from most other software).


So the user manual is a bit misleading IMHO.

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Re: [darktable-user] Recommended processing order

[Remco Viëtor]

On lundi 8 août 2022 18:16:55 CEST David Vincent-Jones wrote:
> My first objective with raw data is to establish the outline and tones
> of the final image. I use perspective control and cropping prior to any
> other function. Where these modules come in the 'pipeline' is really of
> little importance to me. The 'frame' of the image is key to all further
> processing..
 As I said elsewhere, some modules are better applied before cropping.
Among these are "lens correction" (it often deforms the image, which van 
require small corrections to the crop) and "retouch" (where you can only use 
source regions you can see...)

Apart from such exceptions, you can indeed use crop early in your workflow.

Remco



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Re: [darktable-user] ETTR and under-expose?

[Remco Viëtor]

On lundi 8 août 2022 17:58:38 CEST David Vincent-Jones wrote:
> My understanding:
> 
> The 'L' histogram is based on the potential JPEG output  however the
> R, G, B histograms are based on the RAW data. This was information
> offered, I think correctly, from a Fujifilm source.
And may very well be correct *for Fuji* (my camera doesn't have an 'L' 
histogram, for starters.) Even for Fuji, it may depend on the exact model.

> I wonder what others think that their camera exposure meter is doing?
> What do people think that 'auto-exposure' achieves? Well, here is my
> take: left to its own devices the camera believes that it is looking at
> a 18% gray card and will establish an exposure at a specific level below
> this value to account for highlight values. (in my case the exposure
> appears to be precisely 1 stop below, but other cameras are definitely
> different.) If I have a situation that involves back-lighting or other
> anomalies, then I use the 'compensation dial' to further make such
> adjustments.
While indeed the exposure to 18% gray seems standard, all other settings are 
camera-dependent. As are the tone curves applied to get the in-camera jpeg 
(preview).

> Remember ... filmic tone-mapping is based on a 'pivot point' of an 18%
> gray and not on an ETTR theory.
Of course filmic has nothing to do with ETTR, which is a method use at the 
moment you take the picture.

> When I open an image (RAW) for processing my 1 stop Fujifilm allowance
> is automatically reversed and so also is the compensation dial setting.
> Using this simple system I find that 95% of my images require absolutely
> zero further adjustment of the basic exposure in dt.
And it's the 5% remaining that requires 95% of the effort, and that's where 
you have to pay a bit more attention to exposure etc.
For easy situations, you can be a bit less precise with exposure and post-
processing. When you get into tricky backlit situations, theatre and such, you 
either work very carefully (if possible!) or accept a loss in image quality 
(more noise, some burned-out regions, ...), or, often enough, both...

> Why make it so hard when our tools make it so easy?
Two reasons:
- Our tools make it easy for the common situations
- The ease of use often means accepting a (possibly small) loss of quality 
(e.g. shadow noise is still present, so properly using ETTR can gain you a bit 
there).

Whether all this is important depends on the kind of photography you do, and 
the subjects you deal with. A fine-art nature photographer who loves backlit 
scenes will not work the same way as a studio photographer or a photo reporter 
(who might not even bother with raw).

But even then, it never hurts to understand the theory behind common terms, 
and know how to apply the methods involved. Or, as in this case, get a 
clarification for the manual (for me, the text looks correct, but the author 
glossed over a few steps to get from A to B).

> On 2022-08-08 01:38, Terry Pinfold wrote:
> > This seems  to be conflicting info. I would read it as  ettr is
> > recommended, however, even under exposing by up to one stop is not
> > detrimental.
> > 
> > On Mon, 8 Aug 2022, 18:17 Mikael Ståldal,  wrote:
> >> I don't quite understand this section in the manual:
> >> 
> >> 
> >> https://docs.darktable.org/usermanual/development/en/overview/workflow/pr
> >> ocess/#take-a-well-exposed-photograph
> >> 
> >> It recommends exposure to-the-right (ETTR), but then talks about
> >> under-expose images by 0.5 to 1 EV. Isn't ETTR about over-exposing
> >> rather than under-exposing?
> >> 
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Re: [darktable-user] Recommended processing order

[David Vincent-Jones]

My first objective with raw data is to establish the outline and tones 
of the final image. I use perspective control and cropping prior to any 
other function. Where these modules come in the 'pipeline' is really of 
little importance to me. The 'frame' of the image is key to all further 
processing..


On 2022-08-08 03:01, Terry Pinfold wrote:

That would depend on where it falls within the pipeline. I am not on DT at
the moment so I am not sure where it is placed. However, today I edited an
image and applied cropping before filmic for the reasons you are alluding
to.

On Mon, 8 Aug 2022, 19:42 Mikael Ståldal,  wrote:


The

https://docs.darktable.org/usermanual/development/en/overview/workflow/process/
section in the user manual outlines the recommended processing order. It
places cropping towards the end along with creative adjustments.
Wouldn't it make more sense to do cropping first, before tone
adjustments etc?


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Re: [darktable-user] ETTR and under-expose?

[David Vincent-Jones]

My understanding:

The 'L' histogram is based on the potential JPEG output  however the 
R, G, B histograms are based on the RAW data. This was information 
offered, I think correctly, from a Fujifilm source.


I wonder what others think that their camera exposure meter is doing? 
What do people think that 'auto-exposure' achieves? Well, here is my 
take: left to its own devices the camera believes that it is looking at 
a 18% gray card and will establish an exposure at a specific level below 
this value to account for highlight values. (in my case the exposure 
appears to be precisely 1 stop below, but other cameras are definitely 
different.) If I have a situation that involves back-lighting or other 
anomalies, then I use the 'compensation dial' to further make such 
adjustments.


Remember ... filmic tone-mapping is based on a 'pivot point' of an 18% 
gray and not on an ETTR theory.


When I open an image (RAW) for processing my 1 stop Fujifilm allowance 
is automatically reversed and so also is the compensation dial setting. 
Using this simple system I find that 95% of my images require absolutely 
zero further adjustment of the basic exposure in dt.


Why make it so hard when our tools make it so easy?

On 2022-08-08 01:38, Terry Pinfold wrote:

This seems  to be conflicting info. I would read it as  ettr is
recommended, however, even under exposing by up to one stop is not
detrimental.

On Mon, 8 Aug 2022, 18:17 Mikael Ståldal,  wrote:


I don't quite understand this section in the manual:


https://docs.darktable.org/usermanual/development/en/overview/workflow/process/#take-a-well-exposed-photograph

It recommends exposure to-the-right (ETTR), but then talks about
under-expose images by 0.5 to 1 EV. Isn't ETTR about over-exposing
rather than under-exposing?


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Re: [darktable-user] Recommended processing order

[Remco Viëtor]

On lundi 8 août 2022 11:41:15 CEST Mikael Ståldal wrote:
> The
> https://docs.darktable.org/usermanual/development/en/overview/workflow/proce
> ss/ section in the user manual outlines the recommended processing order. It
> places cropping towards the end along with creative adjustments.
> Wouldn't it make more sense to do cropping first, before tone
> adjustments etc?

Well, the method in the section you refer to ("introduction to darktable's 
workflow") starts with doing the required "technical" corrections with the 
minimum number of modules needed: "exposure", "filmic RGB" and "color balance 
RGB". The aim there is to get a decent starting point for further "creative" 
corrections in as simple a way as possible.

But that section is an **introduction**, i.e. kept as simple as possible to 
get the principles across. Once you are a bit more familiar with darktable and 
its tools, nothing stops you from using a different working order. 

And certain operations are easier before cropping:
- "lens correction" can move parts of the image a bit
- "rotate and perspective" will move and/or deform parts of the image
- in "retouch"  you can use 'source' areas outside the final cropped image, 
provided you can see them while retouching.

Remember that the order in which you use modules doesn't influence the order 
in which they are applied to the image. So even if you activate "rotate and 
perspective" after cropping, it will still be applied before the crop. Which 
means your crop is probably no longer exactly what you intended.

Remco



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Re: [darktable-user] ETTR and under-expose?

[Terry Pinfold]

Well I learnt something new today,  the camera histogram is based on the
jpeg. What I tell my students is to avoid clipping, if possible, as the
detail is lost. Also most noise is in the shadows so ettr is preferable to
under exposure to reduce noise, but clipping is the cardinal sin.

On Mon, 8 Aug 2022, 19:50 Remco Viëtor,  wrote:

> On lundi 8 août 2022 10:15:47 CEST Mikael Ståldal wrote:
> > I don't quite understand this section in the manual:
> >
> >
> https://docs.darktable.org/usermanual/development/en/overview/workflow/proce
> > ss/#take-a-well-exposed-photograph
> >
> > It recommends exposure to-the-right (ETTR), but then talks about
> > under-expose images by 0.5 to 1 EV. Isn't ETTR about over-exposing
> > rather than under-exposing?
> The idea behind "Expose to the right" is that you expose  to get as much
> usable signal in the shadows, without over-exposing the highlights where
> you
> want to keep detail. So in a low-contrast scene that probably means "over-
> exposing" compared to the meter reading. But when you have a high-contrast
> (or
> high dynamic range) scene, with part in full sunlight and part in shadow,
> you
> may have to *under-expose* wrt to the meter reading.
>
> That is based on the sensors we had 10-15 years ago, which had a much more
> limited dynamic range than modern sensors. That's also why exposure
> bracketing
> and HDR work were discussed so much.
> Modern sensors have a much larger dynamic range (up to 12-13EV), so you
> have a
> lot more data in the shadow parts. That means that ETTR is less important
> ("less", not "not").
>
> But you **still** have to prevent over-exposure of any area of interest in
> your image. Any pixel that gets saturated means you lose data. If you have
> zones where one colour is over-exposed (i.e. the pixels are saturated and
> signal is clipped), you lose colour information for that zone, but details
> should be recoverable. If all three colours are ever-exposed, you have
> neither
> colour nor details in that zone, and you end up with flat white (or
> magenta
> due to the whitebalance correction, which pushes red and blue).
>
> And the in-camera histogram is of remarkably little value in judging over
> exposure, as it is based on the in-camera jpeg, not on the raw data. Hence
> the
> remark about under-exposing 0.5-1 EV. Avoiding clipping in the highlights
> is
> really that important (and very easy to do: take a sunset, unless you
> under-
> expose a lot, the sky and clouds near the sun will be clipped. The sun as
> well, but that's really hard to avoid...)
>
> The above is for working with raw files, if you only take jpeg images, the
> situation is easier: expose to get the best possible image in camera,
> large
> edits are not easy to do correctly (if at all possible) on jpeg files.
>
>
>
> 
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>
>


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Re: [darktable-user] Recommended processing order

[Terry Pinfold]

That would depend on where it falls within the pipeline. I am not on DT at
the moment so I am not sure where it is placed. However, today I edited an
image and applied cropping before filmic for the reasons you are alluding
to.

On Mon, 8 Aug 2022, 19:42 Mikael Ståldal,  wrote:

> The
>
> https://docs.darktable.org/usermanual/development/en/overview/workflow/process/
> section in the user manual outlines the recommended processing order. It
> places cropping towards the end along with creative adjustments.
> Wouldn't it make more sense to do cropping first, before tone
> adjustments etc?
>
> 
> darktable user mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
>
>


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Re: [darktable-user] ETTR and under-expose?

[Remco Viëtor]

On lundi 8 août 2022 10:15:47 CEST Mikael Ståldal wrote:
> I don't quite understand this section in the manual:
> 
> https://docs.darktable.org/usermanual/development/en/overview/workflow/proce
> ss/#take-a-well-exposed-photograph
> 
> It recommends exposure to-the-right (ETTR), but then talks about
> under-expose images by 0.5 to 1 EV. Isn't ETTR about over-exposing
> rather than under-exposing?
The idea behind "Expose to the right" is that you expose  to get as much 
usable signal in the shadows, without over-exposing the highlights where you 
want to keep detail. So in a low-contrast scene that probably means "over-
exposing" compared to the meter reading. But when you have a high-contrast (or 
high dynamic range) scene, with part in full sunlight and part in shadow, you 
may have to *under-expose* wrt to the meter reading. 

That is based on the sensors we had 10-15 years ago, which had a much more 
limited dynamic range than modern sensors. That's also why exposure bracketing 
and HDR work were discussed so much.
Modern sensors have a much larger dynamic range (up to 12-13EV), so you have a  
lot more data in the shadow parts. That means that ETTR is less important 
("less", not "not").

But you **still** have to prevent over-exposure of any area of interest in 
your image. Any pixel that gets saturated means you lose data. If you have 
zones where one colour is over-exposed (i.e. the pixels are saturated and 
signal is clipped), you lose colour information for that zone, but details 
should be recoverable. If all three colours are ever-exposed, you have neither 
colour nor details in that zone, and you end up with flat white (or magenta 
due to the whitebalance correction, which pushes red and blue).

And the in-camera histogram is of remarkably little value in judging over 
exposure, as it is based on the in-camera jpeg, not on the raw data. Hence the 
remark about under-exposing 0.5-1 EV. Avoiding clipping in the highlights is 
really that important (and very easy to do: take a sunset, unless you under-
expose a lot, the sky and clouds near the sun will be clipped. The sun as 
well, but that's really hard to avoid...)

The above is for working with raw files, if you only take jpeg images, the 
situation is easier: expose to get the best possible image in camera, large 
edits are not easy to do correctly (if at all possible) on jpeg files.



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[darktable-user] Recommended processing order

[Mikael Ståldal]

The 
https://docs.darktable.org/usermanual/development/en/overview/workflow/process/ 
section in the user manual outlines the recommended processing order. It 
places cropping towards the end along with creative adjustments. 
Wouldn't it make more sense to do cropping first, before tone 
adjustments etc?


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Re: [darktable-user] ETTR and under-expose?

[Jan Ingwer Baer]

ETTR is not over-exposing. It means to use the maximum exposure without
highlight clipping for best use of the DR of the camera to preserve most
details in shadows. But the problem with most cameras is, that the
histogram is normally based on the JPG-processed picture. And that it is
often difficult to see if small details are right of the histogram
(=clipped).

under-expose by 0.5 to 1 EV is to avoid loss of details in highlights.

Their is no single perfect way to get the optimal raw data for all
situations.

My personal approach is to use the automatic exposure of the camera with
an exposure correction by -0.5 to -1.0 EV. And with my Z6 if have the
option to select the highlight-saving metering for difficult light
situations.



On 08-Aug-22 10:15, Mikael Ståldal wrote:

I don't quite understand this section in the manual:

https://docs.darktable.org/usermanual/development/en/overview/workflow/process/#take-a-well-exposed-photograph


It recommends exposure to-the-right (ETTR), but then talks about
under-expose images by 0.5 to 1 EV. Isn't ETTR about over-exposing
rather than under-exposing?


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Re: [darktable-user] ETTR and under-expose?

[Terry Pinfold]

This seems  to be conflicting info. I would read it as  ettr is
recommended, however, even under exposing by up to one stop is not
detrimental.

On Mon, 8 Aug 2022, 18:17 Mikael Ståldal,  wrote:

> I don't quite understand this section in the manual:
>
>
> https://docs.darktable.org/usermanual/development/en/overview/workflow/process/#take-a-well-exposed-photograph
>
> It recommends exposure to-the-right (ETTR), but then talks about
> under-expose images by 0.5 to 1 EV. Isn't ETTR about over-exposing
> rather than under-exposing?
>
> 
> darktable user mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
>
>


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[darktable-user] ETTR and under-expose?

[Mikael Ståldal]

I don't quite understand this section in the manual:

https://docs.darktable.org/usermanual/development/en/overview/workflow/process/#take-a-well-exposed-photograph

It recommends exposure to-the-right (ETTR), but then talks about 
under-expose images by 0.5 to 1 EV. Isn't ETTR about over-exposing 
rather than under-exposing?


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