Re: Accessibility for person with a motor disability

[Eric Johansson]

On 3/21/2018 11:30 AM, Alex ARNAUD wrote:
> Le 21/03/2018 à 15:27, Eric Johansson a écrit :
>> On 3/20/2018 5:35 AM, Alex ARNAUD wrote:
>>>
>>> What is as you know the most efficient way to write text with a
>>> head-tracking software?
>> I'm frustrated by this kind of question because frequently, this is the
>> wrong question. you should be asking what is the appropriate interface
>> to enable the person with a disability to write, and more importantly,
>> edit text.  much of this thread has been proposing answers based on
>> what's available, not what the person needs.
>
> I understand what you mean. I just don't know what people with motor
> disability need. I'm trying to understand what it is available and
> I'll check with an association what the users use in practice. I'm in
> the first step on a long way.
We need more than just an accessibility tool, we need a different way of
accessing functionality and data embedded in applications. I've been
trying for years to figure out how to write code by speech and here's
the current state of thinking. I did this is a proposal to github for
talk it github universe.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M14DEoC2uTWtQv1HtRyUwK5NKT6Wb0vutu98F9Yl1b0/edit?usp=sharing

It just occurred to me that another example of building your own
interface for the moment is what I'm doing right now. I'm extracting
bank statements to give to my accountant for tax prep. When you download
a statement, my bank labels every statement PDF.pdf. Yeah, I was
thinking the same thing. So I built a grammar that I can say "statement
in June" and it creates a file name of "1234-2018-06.pdf". I still have
to, display in PDF and then click the download button before I can get
to the point where I need to enter a filename but being able to generate
filenames by speech makes it much easier.

>
>> I can't use keyboards much because of a repetitive stress injury. I
>> would say that the most efficient way to write text with a head tracking
>> software is to not even try at all. It's the wrong tool. For many kinds
>> of mobility-based disabilities (RSI, arthritis, amputation etc.) speech
>> recognition would be a better tool.
>
> Which tool are you using on your GNU/Linux distribution for doing
> speech recognition ?

I'm not using a GNU/Linux distribution because well people of promised
speech recognition on Linux for as long as I've been disabled and it
just hasn't happened. what I use is Windows with NaturallySpeaking and
what ever hacks I can get to drive free software. I'm missing tons of
functionality that's present in NaturallySpeaking plus word (i.e.
Select-and-Say and easy misrecognition correction) but I do what I can.

I think it's safe to assume that we will not see speech recognition on
linux in the near future. there are at least a half a dozen projects I
can name off the top of my head that were going to provide speech
recognition on Linux "any day now". If you going to use speech
recognition today, the recognition environment must be available now. 

The question then becomes what can we do if we put speech recognition
"in a separate machine" like a VM or an android phone. the idea is to
isolate the nonfree components so that a disabled person can make a
living, participate online etc. using a mostly free environment. I
propose this because the assumption that every machine should be
equipped with  the accessibility tools the user needs raises the cost of
accessibility and limits the disabled user to just one machine that has
been customized for them. If on the other hand, if we put the
accessibility interface in a separate box like a smart phone and provide
a gateway to drive applications then many more machines could be made
accessible at very low overhead.

remember what I said about solving the disabled person's needs? As I
said to one free software advocate, take care of the needs of the
disabled person to make them as independent as possible, to earn a
living, to live a life first. Advocate free software second if it fits
their needs. I know this is not a popular attitude in some circles but,
quite frankly if I had to wait for speech recognition from the free
software community, I would be living on disability, wasting my life
because I wouldn't be able to work, I wouldn't be able to go to school,
and I just can't tell you how many things you lose when your hands don't
work right.

Re: Accessibility for person with a motor disability

[Richard Owlett]

On 03/21/2018 10:30 AM, Alex ARNAUD wrote:

Le 21/03/2018 à 15:27, Eric Johansson a écrit :

On 3/20/2018 5:35 AM, Alex ARNAUD wrote:


What is as you know the most efficient way to write text with a
head-tracking software?

[snip]



I can't use keyboards much because of a repetitive stress injury. I
would say that the most efficient way to write text with a head tracking
software is to not even try at all. It's the wrong tool. For many kinds
of mobility-based disabilities (RSI, arthritis, amputation etc.) speech
recognition would be a better tool.


Which tool are you using on your GNU/Linux distribution for doing speech 
recognition ?




As to computer usage, I am not disabled.
I'm finding the discussion of Dasher valuable for other reasons.
Is there now viable speech recognition for Linux? I've not done an 
intensive search since Dragon Naturally Speaking (a Windows only app) 
was the only game in town.


However I'm "mobility impaired" due to breaking my back about ten years 
ago - original prognosis was lifetime in wheelchair. I heartily agree 
with comments in this thread that unless you are disabled (or have 
frequent contact with that disability) you have no idea ...!

Re: Accessibility for person with a motor disability

[Alex ARNAUD]

Le 21/03/2018 à 15:27, Eric Johansson a écrit :

On 3/20/2018 5:35 AM, Alex ARNAUD wrote:


What is as you know the most efficient way to write text with a
head-tracking software?

I'm frustrated by this kind of question because frequently, this is the
wrong question. you should be asking what is the appropriate interface
to enable the person with a disability to write, and more importantly,
edit text.  much of this thread has been proposing answers based on
what's available, not what the person needs.


I understand what you mean. I just don't know what people with motor 
disability need. I'm trying to understand what it is available and I'll 
check with an association what the users use in practice. I'm in the 
first step on a long way.



I can't use keyboards much because of a repetitive stress injury. I
would say that the most efficient way to write text with a head tracking
software is to not even try at all. It's the wrong tool. For many kinds
of mobility-based disabilities (RSI, arthritis, amputation etc.) speech
recognition would be a better tool.


Which tool are you using on your GNU/Linux distribution for doing speech 
recognition ?


Best regards,
Alex.

Re: Accessibility for person with a motor disability

[Eric Johansson]

On 3/20/2018 5:35 AM, Alex ARNAUD wrote:
>
> What is as you know the most efficient way to write text with a
> head-tracking software?
I'm frustrated by this kind of question because frequently, this is the
wrong question. you should be asking what is the appropriate interface
to enable the person with a disability to write, and more importantly,
edit text.  much of this thread has been proposing answers based on
what's available, not what the person needs.

I can't use keyboards much because of a repetitive stress injury. I
would say that the most efficient way to write text with a head tracking
software is to not even try at all. It's the wrong tool. For many kinds
of mobility-based disabilities (RSI, arthritis, amputation etc.) speech
recognition would be a better tool.

your question touches a hot spot for me because I've been living with a
disability for about 25 years now. I've also seen, for the same 25 years
people without disabilities proposing the same solutions over and over
again, either not able to or unwilling to hear that those solutions are
, at best crap, at worst humiliating.

As a person with a disability, I will tell you anytime you try to
emulate/simulate a mouse and keyboard with tools like on-screen
keyboards, I tracking etc.,  you are solving the wrong problem. the
right problem (my opinion) is digging into applications and revealing
internal information and providing access to internal controls so that
you can build an interface that matches the person's disability.

It's also very important to build the interface it lets the person
automate or extend that interface without counting on anybody else to
create that extension. For example, my hands don't work right so if I'm
going to extend my speech recognition interface, I need to do it with
speech recognition.

So I would go back to your disabled person and really look at what they
need. If they have enough physical ability enabling them to use speech
recognition, then that will make them more independent than head
trackers or on-screen keyboards would ever do.

--- eric

Re: Accessibility for person with a motor disability

[Alex ARNAUD]

Le 20/03/2018 à 18:31, Mats L a écrit :
Both Onboard and Caribou were intended as replacements of GOK, but are 
not really.
GOK was an ambitious effort to provide tailorable access for individuals 
with major motor difficulties, including need for single and double 
switch input. But it was not a very suitable option for a wider group of 
users with a need for a more basic on-screen keyboard for use with 
direct point and click or touch selection.


Do you have reported such bugs against onboard or Caribou?

Do you have asked upstream to make GOK comes back if it has a different 
purpose?


Best regards,
Alex.

Re: Accessibility for person with a motor disability

[Thibaut Paumard]

Le 20/03/2018 à 17:33, Alex ARNAUD a écrit :

Hello Thibaut,

Le 20/03/2018 à 11:14, Thibaut Paumard a écrit :

Le 20/03/2018 à 10:35, Alex ARNAUD a écrit :
What is as you know the most efficient way to write text with a 
head-tracking software?


Dasher comes to mind:



I've tested it, looks good to me.
Is Dasher should be configured to replace the keyboard when I open a 
text edition field? I've found how to write text but it's only from the 
dasher window so imagine if I would like to enter text on Firefox, how I 
can do that? Maybe there is a documentation I could look on? (I've 
already read some documentation I've found on the dasher website).


Dear Alex,

Dasher has a "direct mode" that you can activate from le File menu. In 
this mode, you can click in a text input widget in any application and 
come back to dasher window to type text that will directly appear in 
this widget. I have typed part of this e-mail this way in thunderbird 
using dasher.


I don't use dasher on a daily basis myself, so I can't judge whether 
it's reliable or practical for daily use. For sure it does not play nice 
with mouse or sloppy focus.


Also, due to how it is implemented, direct mode works only under X11, 
not in Wayland:

https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=778151

So by default direct mode works in Debian Stretch (current stable), but 
not in Buster (current unstable).


Kind regards, Thibaut.

Re: Accessibility for person with a motor disability

[Cesar Mauri]

El 20/03/18 a las 10:35, Alex ARNAUD escribió:


Are you aware of differences between eviacam and GNOME mousetrap?


I didn't try recent versions, thus I cannot answer




 What is as you know the most efficient way to write text with a head-tracking 
software?



As Thibaut suggested, I think the most efficient writing system for 
head-tracking is dasher. However, all people I've seen using a head-tracker 
combined it with some sort of on-screen keyboard.


Best
Cesar

Re: Accessibility for person with a motor disability

[Samuel Thibault]

Alex ARNAUD, on mar. 20 mars 2018 17:33:25 +0100, wrote:
> Is Dasher should be configured to replace the keyboard when I open a text
> edition field?

IIRC that has never been implemented.  It would be a matter of making it
e.g. an ibus input method or such.

Samuel

Re: Accessibility for person with a motor disability

[Samuel Thibault]

Mats L, on mar. 20 mars 2018 16:22:25 +0100, wrote:
> Unfortunately the GNU/Linux environments are badly missing a full-featured
> tailorable on-screen keyboard alternative (including switch input etc.)
> following up on the [4]GOK project since it was discontinued.

Is onboard not the continuation of GOK?

Samuel

Re: Accessibility for person with a motor disability

[Alex ARNAUD]

Hello Thibaut,

Le 20/03/2018 à 11:14, Thibaut Paumard a écrit :

Le 20/03/2018 à 10:35, Alex ARNAUD a écrit :
What is as you know the most efficient way to write text with a 
head-tracking software?


Dear Alex,

Dasher comes to mind:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasher_(software)


I've tested it, looks good to me.
Is Dasher should be configured to replace the keyboard when I open a 
text edition field? I've found how to write text but it's only from the 
dasher window so imagine if I would like to enter text on Firefox, how I 
can do that? Maybe there is a documentation I could look on? (I've 
already read some documentation I've found on the dasher website).


Best regards,
Alex.

Re: Accessibility for person with a motor disability

[Thibaut Paumard]

Le 20/03/2018 à 10:35, Alex ARNAUD a écrit :
What is as you know the most 
efficient way to write text with a head-tracking software?


Dear Alex,

Dasher comes to mind:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasher_(software)

Kind regards, Thibaut.

Re: Accessibility for person with a motor disability

[Alex ARNAUD]

Le 19/03/2018 à 20:46, Cesar Mauri a écrit :

* Does head-tracking is really efficient?


(Disclaimer: I'm the author of eViacam and EVA Facial Mouse)


Are you aware of differences between eviacam and GNOME mousetrap?

However, if you mean whether is there a FOSS head tracker solution 
available for GNU/Linux as efficient as similar products, then I would 
say yes.


It's exactly what I expect indeed. What is as you know the most 
efficient way to write text with a head-tracking software?


* Do you know if there are other useful application? 


There was a website that collected many open source assistive technology 
software (not only for GNU/Linux). The site is now gone but could be 
still consulted here:


Thanks you for the link.

Best regards,
Alex.

Re: Accessibility for person with a motor disability

[Alex ARNAUD]

Le 19/03/2018 à 18:03, Gregg Vanderheiden GPII a écrit :

have you tried the Unified Listing? http://ul.gpii.net  part of  
http://GPII.net


I've discovered the Unified Listing with your message. It's really 
interesting. Thanks for the tips.


Best regards,
Alex.

Re: Accessibility for person with a motor disability

[Cesar Mauri]

* Does head-tracking is really efficient?


(Disclaimer: I'm the author of eViacam and EVA Facial Mouse)

If by efficiency you mean achieving the same throughput than a regular mouse, 
then the answer is no. I'm not aware about any head tracker solution able reach 
the same low difficulty level (in terms of the Fitt's law) and interaction 
speed as the mouse. In other words, interacting with the computer using a head 
tracker is slower than using a mouse.

However, if you mean whether is there a FOSS head tracker solution available 
for GNU/Linux as efficient as similar products, then I would say yes. I know 
about some eViacam users that say that it is almost as accurate as the best 
hardware based commercial solutions. This, of course, is opinionable and user 
experience depend on many factors such as practice and working conditions 
(quality of the camera, lighting, etc.).


* Do you know if there are other useful application? 


There was a website that collected many open source assistive technology 
software (not only for GNU/Linux). The site is now gone but could be still 
consulted here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160412220413/http://www.oatsoft.org:80/Software/listing/Repository


Best

Cesar



El 19/03/18 a las 17:52, Alex ARNAUD escribió:

Hello all,

To help people with motor disability, I'm trying to search what software and 
technologies exist on GNU/Linux.

Sorry for the cross-list post but I don't know where to ask for help.

I've already found the following software:
* dasher: for writing text
* eviacam: a head tracking software
* mousetrap: another head tracking software
* onboard: a configurable on-screen keyboard

My questions are:
* Do you know if there is eye-tracking software?
* Does head-tracking is really efficient?
* Do you know if there are other useful application?
* Do you know how to use the numeric keyboard to move the mouse on Mate?
* Is there a mailing list or forum where there are people with motor disability 
using GNU/Linux?

Best regards.

Re: Accessibility for person with a motor disability

[Gregg Vanderheiden GPII]

have you tried the Unified Listing? http://ul.gpii.net  part of  
http://GPII.net  

use advanced search (or standard search) and type Linux in the search box.

I found 63 hardware and software accessibility products that cite LINUX in 
their descriptions.

Don’t see any eye trackers listed - but you can check with the mfgrs of all of 
the 30 products that include "eye track” in their descriptions to see if any 
work with LINUX.  (if you find one - please leave a note using the handy 
feature at the bottom of every page — so we can get LINUX added to the 
description.

best

Gregg


> On Mar 19, 2018, at 12:52 PM, Alex ARNAUD  wrote:
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> To help people with motor disability, I'm trying to search what software and 
> technologies exist on GNU/Linux.
> 
> Sorry for the cross-list post but I don't know where to ask for help.
> 
> I've already found the following software:
> * dasher: for writing text
> * eviacam: a head tracking software
> * mousetrap: another head tracking software
> * onboard: a configurable on-screen keyboard
> 
> My questions are:
> * Do you know if there is eye-tracking software?
> * Does head-tracking is really efficient?
> * Do you know if there are other useful application?
> * Do you know how to use the numeric keyboard to move the mouse on Mate?
> * Is there a mailing list or forum where there are people with motor 
> disability using GNU/Linux?
> 
> Best regards.
> -- 
> Alex ARNAUD
> Visual-Impairment Project Manager
> Hypra - "Humanizing technology"
> ___
> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list
> gnome-accessibility-l...@gnome.org
> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list