Re: Running Pure Debian on the Raspberry Pi 3B+?

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 16 August 2018 11:09:39 Alan Corey wrote:

> Debian on a Pi means you don't/cant' have the whole /opt/vc userland
> stuff, some of which came from Broadcom.  Without that the Pi is just
> a slow computer.

And its slow because with the exception of spi and wifi, everything has 
to fight for a time slot in the internal usb-2 hub it uses as a gateway 
to talk to the rest of its i/o. But its a very small pinhole.

> The magic is probably Pi-specific

The rpspi.ko spi driver included now with LinuxCNC, is 100% gplv2, and 
extremely specific to the gpio in the pi-3b.

And it would make one hell of an spi driver for anything else with gpio, 
but would need to be stripped of its pi-3b detectors and ported to the 
newer gpio's shipping today. My thinker is 83 yo, and after a pulmonary 
embolism 3 years back is no longer capable of that.

> but  
> /opt/vc/src/hello_pi has working examples of things like OpenGL ES and
> the assembly code to do an FFT on the GPU.  I tried straight Debian,
> on 2 of 3 machines I'm sticking with Raspbian.

So am I.  My one working pi-3b install is raspian jessie, solid as a 
block of granite unless a disk has been added or subtracted since the 
last session of nano/geany adding them to /etc/fstab, otherwise it runs 
an 11x36 Sheldon lathe for me from power outage to power outage. I need 
to label the partitions, and edit fstab accordingly. For some reason, 
blkid's do not seem to be the answer, I think because they change 
according to which usb socket they are plugged into.
 
Sadly I cannot make a similar claim about stability for stretch.

> The folks at 
> https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/ are pretty good too, some of the
> original Pi engineers are in there.

And sadly, deaf to any requests involving LinuxCNC, which needs at least 
a fully preemptable kernel to run. RTAI or *enomai might work, but 
hasn't been tried.

> On 8/15/18, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > On Wednesday 15 August 2018 03:44:00 Mark Morgan Lloyd wrote:
> >> > On 8/14/18, Rogério Brito  wrote:
> >> >> I am thinking of getting a Raspberry Pi 3B+ and, from what I
> >> >> read, it is mostly supported by the upstream Linux kernel, but I
> >> >> still have doubts about
> >> >> what I may be losing or not, compared to Raspbian.
> >> >>
> >> >> >From what I read, there are some binary blobs needed for the
> >> >> > video to work
> >> >>
> >> >> (and I would like to use it with Kodi, to play some videos and
> >> >> to, perhaps, act as a NAS or a place where I can use to save
> >> >> some files via NFS when a USB HD is attached to it).
> >>
> >> Apologies for missing the original message which for some reason
> >> got marked as spam/malware.
> >>
> >> We're running a number of RPi3s here with the "Jessie" build done
> >> by Collabora, which relies on the Raspbian kernel and loader (hence
> >> also any proprietary binaries), originally because KDE didn't play
> >> nicely with Raspbian. I've also looked briefly at somebody's 64-bit
> >> port.
> >>
> >> My suggestion would be to stick with Raspbian unless you have a
> >> very good reason to explore alternatives.
> >
> > I've gone back to armbian stretch on the rock64. Its networking init
> > will at least accept a gateway argument in /etc.network/interfaces.
> > debian-arm stretch will not, so you can get all over ones local
> > network, but cannot use the gateway to install any updates that
> > might fix that.
> >
> > Questions asked here re the lack of a gateway when it IS assigned
> > haven't been answered with a solution that worked with the exception
> > that someone did give me the correct syntax to make it work with
> > "route" after the boot and login, something the man page for route
> > doesn't make clear. And I am not convinced it even executes
> > /etc/rc.local as I tried to put that command in as a shell util, and
> > it was ignored on reboot.
> >
> > Armbian Just Works with the exception that its sd /boot partition is
> > too small to allow a full completion of a kernel update, but on
> > reboot, it has worked. When we use a 32GB (or even larger) sd card,
> > we gain years before the card fails, and there is no valid excuse
> > for a /boot partition so small its unable to hold 2 or even 3,
> > bootable kernel versions.
> >
> > I have yet to make the rock64's do what I bought them for, but hold
> > out hope that they may someday, when the coder folks userstand some
> > of us did NOT buy them to make a media server. We want to run
> > potentially dangerous machinery, which requires a realtime kernel,
> > and in the case of the rock64, access to the spi (gpio pins)
> > interface(s) at 50 megabaud speeds. The pi CAN do it at 42 megabaud
> > w/o breaking a sweat.
> >
> > Thats a roadblock I expect will eventually be fixed with a new spi
> > driver. But I'm not reading any rumors yet. :)

See above, the src code for rpspi.ko is available and gplv2.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and 

Re: Running Pure Debian on the Raspberry Pi 3B+?

[Alan Corey]

Debian on a Pi means you don't/cant' have the whole /opt/vc userland
stuff, some of which came from Broadcom.  Without that the Pi is just
a slow computer.  The magic is probably Pi-specific but
/opt/vc/src/hello_pi has working examples of things like OpenGL ES and
the assembly code to do an FFT on the GPU.  I tried straight Debian,
on 2 of 3 machines I'm sticking with Raspbian.  The folks at
https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/ are pretty good too, some of the
original Pi engineers are in there.

On 8/15/18, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> On Wednesday 15 August 2018 03:44:00 Mark Morgan Lloyd wrote:
>
>> > On 8/14/18, Rogério Brito  wrote:
>> >> I am thinking of getting a Raspberry Pi 3B+ and, from what I read,
>> >> it is mostly supported by the upstream Linux kernel, but I still
>> >> have doubts about
>> >> what I may be losing or not, compared to Raspbian.
>> >>
>> >> >From what I read, there are some binary blobs needed for the video
>> >> > to work
>> >>
>> >> (and I would like to use it with Kodi, to play some videos and to,
>> >> perhaps, act as a NAS or a place where I can use to save some files
>> >> via NFS when a USB HD is attached to it).
>>
>> Apologies for missing the original message which for some reason got
>> marked as spam/malware.
>>
>> We're running a number of RPi3s here with the "Jessie" build done by
>> Collabora, which relies on the Raspbian kernel and loader (hence also
>> any proprietary binaries), originally because KDE didn't play nicely
>> with Raspbian. I've also looked briefly at somebody's 64-bit port.
>>
>> My suggestion would be to stick with Raspbian unless you have a very
>> good reason to explore alternatives.
>
> I've gone back to armbian stretch on the rock64. Its networking init will
> at least accept a gateway argument in /etc.network/interfaces.
> debian-arm stretch will not, so you can get all over ones local network,
> but cannot use the gateway to install any updates that might fix that.
>
> Questions asked here re the lack of a gateway when it IS assigned haven't
> been answered with a solution that worked with the exception that
> someone did give me the correct syntax to make it work with "route"
> after the boot and login, something the man page for route doesn't make
> clear. And I am not convinced it even executes /etc/rc.local as I tried
> to put that command in as a shell util, and it was ignored on reboot.
>
> Armbian Just Works with the exception that its sd /boot partition is too
> small to allow a full completion of a kernel update, but on reboot, it
> has worked. When we use a 32GB (or even larger) sd card, we gain years
> before the card fails, and there is no valid excuse for a /boot
> partition so small its unable to hold 2 or even 3, bootable kernel
> versions.
>
> I have yet to make the rock64's do what I bought them for, but hold out
> hope that they may someday, when the coder folks userstand some of us
> did NOT buy them to make a media server. We want to run potentially
> dangerous machinery, which requires a realtime kernel, and in the case
> of the rock64, access to the spi (gpio pins) interface(s) at 50 megabaud
> speeds. The pi CAN do it at 42 megabaud w/o breaking a sweat.
>
> Thats a roadblock I expect will eventually be fixed with a new spi
> driver. But I'm not reading any rumors yet. :)
>
> --
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>
>


-- 
-
No, I won't  call it "climate change", do you have a "reality problem"? - AB1JX
Cities are cages built to contain excess people and keep them from
cluttering up nature.
Impeach  Impeach  Impeach  Impeach  Impeach  Impeach  Impeach  Impeach

Re: Running Pure Debian on the Raspberry Pi 3B+?

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 15 August 2018 03:44:00 Mark Morgan Lloyd wrote:

> > On 8/14/18, Rogério Brito  wrote:
> >> I am thinking of getting a Raspberry Pi 3B+ and, from what I read,
> >> it is mostly supported by the upstream Linux kernel, but I still
> >> have doubts about
> >> what I may be losing or not, compared to Raspbian.
> >>
> >> >From what I read, there are some binary blobs needed for the video
> >> > to work
> >>
> >> (and I would like to use it with Kodi, to play some videos and to,
> >> perhaps, act as a NAS or a place where I can use to save some files
> >> via NFS when a USB HD is attached to it).
>
> Apologies for missing the original message which for some reason got
> marked as spam/malware.
>
> We're running a number of RPi3s here with the "Jessie" build done by
> Collabora, which relies on the Raspbian kernel and loader (hence also
> any proprietary binaries), originally because KDE didn't play nicely
> with Raspbian. I've also looked briefly at somebody's 64-bit port.
>
> My suggestion would be to stick with Raspbian unless you have a very
> good reason to explore alternatives.

I've gone back to armbian stretch on the rock64. Its networking init will 
at least accept a gateway argument in /etc.network/interfaces. 
debian-arm stretch will not, so you can get all over ones local network, 
but cannot use the gateway to install any updates that might fix that.

Questions asked here re the lack of a gateway when it IS assigned haven't 
been answered with a solution that worked with the exception that 
someone did give me the correct syntax to make it work with "route" 
after the boot and login, something the man page for route doesn't make 
clear. And I am not convinced it even executes /etc/rc.local as I tried 
to put that command in as a shell util, and it was ignored on reboot.

Armbian Just Works with the exception that its sd /boot partition is too 
small to allow a full completion of a kernel update, but on reboot, it 
has worked. When we use a 32GB (or even larger) sd card, we gain years 
before the card fails, and there is no valid excuse for a /boot 
partition so small its unable to hold 2 or even 3, bootable kernel 
versions.

I have yet to make the rock64's do what I bought them for, but hold out 
hope that they may someday, when the coder folks userstand some of us 
did NOT buy them to make a media server. We want to run potentially 
dangerous machinery, which requires a realtime kernel, and in the case 
of the rock64, access to the spi (gpio pins) interface(s) at 50 megabaud 
speeds. The pi CAN do it at 42 megabaud w/o breaking a sweat.

Thats a roadblock I expect will eventually be fixed with a new spi 
driver. But I'm not reading any rumors yet. :)

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Running Pure Debian on the Raspberry Pi 3B+?

[Mark Morgan Lloyd]

On 8/14/18, Rogério Brito  wrote:



I am thinking of getting a Raspberry Pi 3B+ and, from what I read, it is
mostly supported by the upstream Linux kernel, but I still have doubts
about
what I may be losing or not, compared to Raspbian.

>From what I read, there are some binary blobs needed for the video to work
(and I would like to use it with Kodi, to play some videos and to, perhaps,
act as a NAS or a place where I can use to save some files via NFS when a
USB HD is attached to it).


Apologies for missing the original message which for some reason got 
marked as spam/malware.


We're running a number of RPi3s here with the "Jessie" build done by 
Collabora, which relies on the Raspbian kernel and loader (hence also 
any proprietary binaries), originally because KDE didn't play nicely 
with Raspbian. I've also looked briefly at somebody's 64-bit port.


My suggestion would be to stick with Raspbian unless you have a very 
good reason to explore alternatives.


--
Mark Morgan Lloyd
markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk

[Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues]

Re: Running Pure Debian on the Raspberry Pi 3B+?

[Alan Corey]

Raspbian's pretty close to pure Debian I think, and has more hardware
drivers for the VC4, GPIO, Bluetooth.  They made millions of them, the
software's pretty good.  Try omxplayer and notice how busy the CPU
isn't.  That's because it's utilizing the GPU in about the optimum
way.  I have a Rock64 and smplayer on that uses the hardware
acceleration too.  No, the Raspbian smplayer (16.11.0 (revision 8242))
isn't doing the acceleration right yet, it'll probably catch up.
Actually on the Rock it's the same version smplayer but it's arm64
Debian.  Only omxplayer is fast I think.  And if you read the man page
you can write little scripts like

#!/bin/bash
omxplayer -o local --win 448,272,1472,1040 $1

To use it with your choice of window size and audio output.  No
screenshots though.

I have 2 Pis running Raspbian, and one running arm64 Debian using
https://people.debian.org/~stapelberg/raspberrypi3/ with updates and
upgrades.  I think I prefer the Raspbian.  I had to try 64 bit, but,
nah, it's not a significant improvement in this case.  For one thing
64 bit is bigger and the Pi can only use 1 GB of RAM.

I'd maybe consider the Rockpro64 https://www.pine64.org/?page_id=61454
if I didn't already have a full house.  But the software is in its
infancy, a lot doesn't work right yet and the documentation's in
Chinese.  My Rock64's still experimental, not something I use everyday
like the Pis.  I don't use a big computer at all, just Pis.


On 8/14/18, Rogério Brito  wrote:
> Hi, people.
>
> I tried to send the message below more than 12h ago, but it seems to
> have been lost, so I am resending it via another relay.
>
> Thanks in advance for any help,
>
> Rogério.
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Rogério Brito 
> Date: Tue, Aug 14, 2018 at 6:59 AM
> Subject: Running Pure Debian on the Raspberry Pi 3B+?
> To: debian-arm@lists.debian.org
>
>
> Dear people,
>
> I am thinking of getting a Raspberry Pi 3B+ and, from what I read, it is
> mostly supported by the upstream Linux kernel, but I still have doubts
> about
> what I may be losing or not, compared to Raspbian.
>
> >From what I read, there are some binary blobs needed for the video to work
> (and I would like to use it with Kodi, to play some videos and to, perhaps,
> act as a NAS or a place where I can use to save some files via NFS when a
> USB HD is attached to it).
>
> Regarding hardware support, are there many customizations in Raspbian that
> are not in Debian?
>
> Regarding video, are the players available in Debian (mpv, vlc, ffplay
> etc.)
> able to take advantage of the hardware acceleration, if all the needed
> blobs
> are in place?  I would be tracking the testing distribution (as I do with
> all my other computers).
>
> Also, when people talk about the performance of the raspberry pi and
> videos,
> they always talk about the hardware decoding being used (which, I suppose,
> is about H.264 video) and that gives no idea of how powerful the hardware
> is
> (or is not).
>
> To get an idea, what about the software encoding with NEON or whatever SIMD
> that the is used with arm64? How are the numbers that one can get with,
> say,
> the following command (with or without raspbian)?
>
> mplayer -nosound -vo null -benchmark -endpos 200
> big_buck_bunny_480p_stereo.ogg
>
> (The video available from:
> http://download.blender.org/peach/bigbuckbunny_movies/)
>
> Thanks in advance for any help with understanding both running a pure
> Debian
> distribution on the Raspberry Pi and understanding its performance (so that
> I can compare with other hardware before I go on and buy one of these small
> board computers).
>
>
> Thanks once again,
>
> --
> Rogério Brito : rbrito@{ime.usp.br,gmail.com} : GPG key 4096R/BCFC
> http://cynic.cc/blog/ : github.com/rbrito : profiles.google.com/rbrito
> DebianQA: http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=rbrito%40ime.usp.br
>
> --
> Rogério Brito : rbrito@{ime.usp.br,gmail.com} : GPG key 4096R/BCFC
> http://cynic.cc/blog/ : github.com/rbrito : profiles.google.com/rbrito
> DebianQA: http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=rbrito%40ime.usp.br
>
>


-- 
-
No, I won't  call it "climate change", do you have a "reality problem"? - AB1JX
Cities are cages built to contain excess people and keep them from
cluttering up nature.
Impeach  Impeach  Impeach  Impeach  Impeach  Impeach  Impeach  Impeach