Bug#707851: Proposed changes on menu systems
Hi Russ, Le jeudi 27 mars 2014 à 18:47 -0700, Russ Allbery a écrit : I note that some important aspect of the XDG specification are not included. While it is not necessarily a requirement for policy inclusion, it could be helpful to document the .menu files used by desktop environment and how the Categories relates to the menu layout the users will see. My impression is that this part of the specification hasn't gotten the same level of attention as the desktop file specification, but that's a very vague impression. I think everything exists in the specification, but someone not familiar with it will never know where to start. Add to that the fact that in Debian, we have one menu per desktop environment, which is something that has been standardized only very recently (and maybe not entirely). I'd be curious to hear the opinion of the desktop environment maintainers on what we should tell maintainers of packages like fvwm who want to integrate with desktop entries. I think we should ask the parties interested in cheap XDG menu support to package that: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Xdg-menu and get rid of the Debian menu this way. -- .''`.Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#707851: Proposed changes on menu systems
Bill Allombert ballo...@debian.org writes: So in the spirit of going forward, I would suggest to restrict ourself to documenting the FreeDesktop files. I join a patch which is essentially Charles patch without the demotion of the Debian menu system. Separate from the question of how to handle the existence of both systems, this patch looks good to me and I think is a good step forward towards where we want to be. Therefore, seconded. Some comment on the patch: I note that some important aspect of the XDG specification are not included. While it is not necessarily a requirement for policy inclusion, it could be helpful to document the .menu files used by desktop environment and how the Categories relates to the menu layout the users will see. My impression is that this part of the specification hasn't gotten the same level of attention as the desktop file specification, but that's a very vague impression. I'd be curious to hear the opinion of the desktop environment maintainers on what we should tell maintainers of packages like fvwm who want to integrate with desktop entries. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#707851: Proposed changes on menu systems
On Sun, Feb 02, 2014 at 04:53:57PM +0100, Markus Koschany wrote: Hello Charles, On 02.02.2014 14:00, Charles Plessy wrote: [...] I think that the absence of a feature in the Debian Policy is not a good justification for refusing a patch that is not invasive and does not require further attention. We should assume people's good faith on both sides. Because a counter-argument to yours would be that people will use the presence of the Debian menu in the Debian policy as a justification to file serious bugs on packages and bully maintainers to do a work that they do not want to contribute by themselves. It depends on the wording. Someone who bullied maintainers about menu files in the past and filed serious bugs against such packages was wrong and simply abused the severity level. The Policy recommended menu files but without ever using the word must. I think it is more likely and thus a greater danger, that people drop menu files from working packages because of missing support by Debian's Policy, than that we will see antisocial behavior from promoting the Debian menu as an alternative menu system. But to make my point of view clear: I agree with Sune's proposal to soften the wording of Debian's policy regarding menu files. It is completely sensible to recommend the xdg menu for all desktop applications. In my opinion policy should give clear advice for maintainers to provide these desktop files. I just don't see the urgent need to move the Debian menu to the attic right now. I would like to ask the Policy editors to consider the following: 1. The maintainer of Debian's menu package, Bill Allombert, is active and still supportive of his package. (See his remarks in this thread) 2. The Debian menu is well documented and mature. It just works for its target audience. 3. Creating and maintaining menu files is not a burden, especially if someone wrote the menu file for the maintainer and provided a patch. 4. Not all but a lot of packages already ship menu files. In some areas of Debian menu file support is already excellent. To be more precise, out of 353 source packages in main which are maintained by the Debian Games Team, only 17 are missing either a desktop or menu file or both. As you probably see in your release goal, there are packages from your own team that have bugs tagged desktop-integration related to menus, which are old of multiple monthes and still not fixed. From this I conclude that the problem is not obstruction from a minority of maintainers, but lack of manpower. Lack of manpower is partly an issue but not decisive. Most bug reports were filed because of a missing icon entry for the menu file. That's a very minor issue and I only expect a fix for that if someone has to fix another problem or make a regular upload. In that sense, I am getting concerned that having the Policy encouraging work on the Debian Menu is counter-productive. If there is no vibrant community to keep the Debian Menu alive (and your release goal brilliantly demonstrate that there is not much momentum), then it is better to let it dissapear. As I have pointed out before, I rather think that suggesting the Debian menu as an alternative menu system is more beneficial for Debian's users than to let it disappear. In many packages there is already a working system in place. Why not make use of it and tolerate a single menu file? I would love to see the Debian Policy recommend desktop files but still suggest the Debian menu as an alternative. That's all. Are you yourself a user of the Debian menu ? Yes, of course. You will find a lot of articles on my blog at gambaru.de how to build lightweight desktop environments and to make old hardware useful again. Unfortunately those articles are only available in German but feel free to contact me, if you need some advice in this area. This is just one mail among other in favor of keeping the section about the Debian menu system in the policy document, which have been overlooked. So in the spirit of going forward, I would suggest to restrict ourself to documenting the FreeDesktop files. I join a patch which is essentially Charles patch without the demotion of the Debian menu system. Some comment on the patch: I note that some important aspect of the XDG specification are not included. While it is not necessarily a requirement for policy inclusion, it could be helpful to document the .menu files used by desktop environment and how the Categories relates to the menu layout the users will see. Again, apology for the long delay, but sometime this is necessary. Cheers, -- Bill. ballo...@debian.org Imagine a large red swirl here. diff --git a/policy.sgml b/policy.sgml index f4e4281..be59974 100644 --- a/policy.sgml +++ b/policy.sgml @@ -8088,6 +8088,73 @@ Reloading vardescription/var configuration...done. /p /sect + sect
Bug#707851: Proposed changes on menu systems
Le Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 12:31:59AM +0100, Bill Allombert a écrit : This is just one mail among other in favor of keeping the section about the Debian menu system in the policy document, which have been overlooked. Hello Bill, later in the discussion, in message #345, about the patch that was committed to the Git repository, Markus wrote: “Seconded. Thank you for keeping me in the loop. I think the above wording is sensible and addresses my concerns and those of others here in this thread. Thanks for your work on the Policy.” Please avoid misrepresenting people's opinions by cherry picking messages that have been superseded later. The issue on the menu system is now in the hands of the Technical Comittee. I recommend you to summarise your point of view to them. On my side, I will not participate to the discussion on #707851 with you anymore. You just gave an example on why it is impossible to be constructive with you in this discussion. As a side note, please do not hesitate to commit the part on media types separately. Cheers, -- Charles Plessy Debian Med packaging team, http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-med Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#707851: Proposed changes on menu systems
On Sun, Feb 02, 2014 at 10:00:17PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote: We should assume people's good faith on both sides. Because a counter-argument to yours would be that people will use the presence of the Debian menu in the Debian policy as a justification to file serious bugs on packages and bully maintainers to do a work that they do not want to contribute by themselves. Filling such bugs with severity serious would be against policy with or without the change, so this hypothetical is not particularly enlightening except to disparage the effort of the people trying to keep a coherent menu in Debian. In any case, it does not answer the objection. Cheers, -- Bill. ballo...@debian.org Imagine a large red swirl here. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#707851: Proposed changes on menu systems
Le Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 02:36:35PM +0100, Markus Koschany a écrit : Charles Plessy wrote: [...] I have read a lot of scepticism about the Debian menu in this thread, and no actual support for it. Perhaps I was trying to be too consensual and proposed an over-complicated solution while it is clear that the FreeDesktop system is superior. Hello Charles, I wanted to clarify that there are also efforts to support both menu systems and that the majority of games already integrate both. https://wiki.debian.org/Games/JessieReleaseGoal In my opinion the policy should at least mention the Debian menu as an alternative menu system, so that all the effort until now was not completely wasted. Menu files are easy to write and once written do not impose more work for the maintainer. If the Debian menu is not mentioned at all in Debian's policy, people will use this as a justification to ignore even wishlist bugs for menu files. Hello Markus, thank you for your feedback. I think that the absence of a feature in the Debian Policy is not a good justification for refusing a patch that is not invasive and does not require further attention. We should assume people's good faith on both sides. Because a counter-argument to yours would be that people will use the presence of the Debian menu in the Debian policy as a justification to file serious bugs on packages and bully maintainers to do a work that they do not want to contribute by themselves. As you probably see in your release goal, there are packages from your own team that have bugs tagged desktop-integration related to menus, which are old of multiple monthes and still not fixed. From this I conclude that the problem is not obstruction from a minority of maintainers, but lack of manpower. In that sense, I am getting concerned that having the Policy encouraging work on the Debian Menu is counter-productive. If there is no vibrant community to keep the Debian Menu alive (and your release goal brilliantly demonstrate that there is not much momentum), then it is better to let it dissapear. Are you yourself a user of the Debian menu ? Have a nice day, -- Charles Plessy Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#707851: Proposed changes on menu systems
Hello Charles, On 02.02.2014 14:00, Charles Plessy wrote: [...] I think that the absence of a feature in the Debian Policy is not a good justification for refusing a patch that is not invasive and does not require further attention. We should assume people's good faith on both sides. Because a counter-argument to yours would be that people will use the presence of the Debian menu in the Debian policy as a justification to file serious bugs on packages and bully maintainers to do a work that they do not want to contribute by themselves. It depends on the wording. Someone who bullied maintainers about menu files in the past and filed serious bugs against such packages was wrong and simply abused the severity level. The Policy recommended menu files but without ever using the word must. I think it is more likely and thus a greater danger, that people drop menu files from working packages because of missing support by Debian's Policy, than that we will see antisocial behavior from promoting the Debian menu as an alternative menu system. But to make my point of view clear: I agree with Sune's proposal to soften the wording of Debian's policy regarding menu files. It is completely sensible to recommend the xdg menu for all desktop applications. In my opinion policy should give clear advice for maintainers to provide these desktop files. I just don't see the urgent need to move the Debian menu to the attic right now. I would like to ask the Policy editors to consider the following: 1. The maintainer of Debian's menu package, Bill Allombert, is active and still supportive of his package. (See his remarks in this thread) 2. The Debian menu is well documented and mature. It just works for its target audience. 3. Creating and maintaining menu files is not a burden, especially if someone wrote the menu file for the maintainer and provided a patch. 4. Not all but a lot of packages already ship menu files. In some areas of Debian menu file support is already excellent. To be more precise, out of 353 source packages in main which are maintained by the Debian Games Team, only 17 are missing either a desktop or menu file or both. As you probably see in your release goal, there are packages from your own team that have bugs tagged desktop-integration related to menus, which are old of multiple monthes and still not fixed. From this I conclude that the problem is not obstruction from a minority of maintainers, but lack of manpower. Lack of manpower is partly an issue but not decisive. Most bug reports were filed because of a missing icon entry for the menu file. That's a very minor issue and I only expect a fix for that if someone has to fix another problem or make a regular upload. In that sense, I am getting concerned that having the Policy encouraging work on the Debian Menu is counter-productive. If there is no vibrant community to keep the Debian Menu alive (and your release goal brilliantly demonstrate that there is not much momentum), then it is better to let it dissapear. As I have pointed out before, I rather think that suggesting the Debian menu as an alternative menu system is more beneficial for Debian's users than to let it disappear. In many packages there is already a working system in place. Why not make use of it and tolerate a single menu file? I would love to see the Debian Policy recommend desktop files but still suggest the Debian menu as an alternative. That's all. Are you yourself a user of the Debian menu ? Yes, of course. You will find a lot of articles on my blog at gambaru.de how to build lightweight desktop environments and to make old hardware useful again. Unfortunately those articles are only available in German but feel free to contact me, if you need some advice in this area. Regards, Markus signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Bug#707851: Proposed changes on menu systems (was: Re: Bug#707851: Let's remove the Debian menu from the Debian Policy ?)
Dear all, there is an ongoing discussion about the documentation of menu systems on the debian-policy mailing list, which led to proposed changes and it was suggested to give them a better coverage. On part of the proposal is about the description of the FreeDesktop menu system and its integration on Debian. I think that we have converged to a good wording there. Another part of the proposal is about the description of the Debian menu system. As of today (version 3.9.5), the Policy gives it a central importance. But this ignores the fact that on the majority of the desktop systems running Debian, the Debian menu is deprecated and hidden. Indeed, in Jessie it will not be installed by default anymore by the task-desktop metapackage. Moreover, in the discussion that took place on the debian-policy mailing list, there was hardly some support for the Debian menu altogether. As a consequence, the current proposition is to remove the description of the Debian menu from the Debian policy. The last part describes how to associate media types with file extensions through FreeDesktop menu entries, and how this system coexists with the mailcap system. As the maintainer of the mime-support package, I would be interested to switch even more broadly to the FreeDesktop system, but did not yet find time to implement these changes. Help is welcome ! See http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=707851#270 for the precise wording of the proposal. I would welcome constructive comments on the patch proposed. By constructive I mean focused (please quote the parts you comment), backed by explanations and, in case of strong objections, some background about what are the stakes of the commenter in the maintenance or use of menu systems and media types. Have a nice week-end, -- Charles Plessy Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#707851: Proposed changes on menu systems
Charles Plessy wrote: [...] I have read a lot of scepticism about the Debian menu in this thread, and no actual support for it. Perhaps I was trying to be too consensual and proposed an over-complicated solution while it is clear that the FreeDesktop system is superior. Hello Charles, I wanted to clarify that there are also efforts to support both menu systems and that the majority of games already integrate both. https://wiki.debian.org/Games/JessieReleaseGoal In my opinion the policy should at least mention the Debian menu as an alternative menu system, so that all the effort until now was not completely wasted. Menu files are easy to write and once written do not impose more work for the maintainer. If the Debian menu is not mentioned at all in Debian's policy, people will use this as a justification to ignore even wishlist bugs for menu files. Regards, Markus signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Bug#707851: Proposed changes on menu systems
On Sat, 25 Jan 2014, Markus Koschany wrote: I wanted to clarify that there are also efforts to support both menu systems and that the majority of games already integrate both. https://wiki.debian.org/Games/JessieReleaseGoal In my opinion the policy should at least mention the Debian menu as an alternative menu system, so that all the effort until now was not completely wasted. Menu files are easy to write and once written do not impose more work for the maintainer. If the Debian menu is not mentioned at all in Debian's policy, people will use this as a justification to ignore even wishlist bugs for menu files. Seconded. -- One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie. -- The Silicon Valley Tarot Henrique Holschuh signature.asc Description: Digital signature
