Bug#855179: debian-reference-it: Disable Weblate for currently .po and git maintaned Italian translation

[Osamu Aoki]

Wow ..

On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 02:37:05PM +0200, Holger Wansing wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> atzlinux  wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> >  I'm sorry for just read this bug report.
> > 
> > I imported debian-reference to weblate at last year.
> > 
> > After weblate update,I merge and push weblate's git brach to git.debian.org.
> > 
> > debian-reference's many language translate had already finished,so they 
> > not need to translate in weblate.
> > 
> > To aovid  the distrub from weblate for already finished language,I plan 
> > to do this:

Please do so

I am not familiar with weblate

> > after I pull from weblate'git,I not change their po files.I'll reserver 
> > their newest copy from git.debian.org in my local.
> > 
> > de.po   fr.po  it.po  ja.po  pt.po  ,if these five po files has any 
> > error now,please help fixed in git.

> > zh-cn.po  zh-tw.po es.po fi.po nb.po ,these language will continuous use 
> > weblate.

zh-cn.po  zh-tw.po es.po

Yes please

fi.po nb.po

Are they real translation?  I see no real activity.  Weblate is too easy
on creating new translation without someone looking at it. Is there way
to make new language addition a bit more careful?

> > Is this OK?
> 
> Yes, that would be fine.
> 
> As Beatrice already wrote, there are translations in the Debian Reference
> project, which are actively maintained by a translator, and importing them
> into Weblate is _definitely_hijacking_!!!

True.

> And that's a absolute NO-GO!!!
> Why import those up-to-date translations into Weblate at all? Those
> translations do not need any help from help! They have a translator, which
> does it job perfectly fine!
> 
> Moreover: when looking at the above mentioned Weblate contributions, I
> see absolutely no reason, why Weblate is an option at all!
> The above contribution makes me think, that the Weblate is a robot-based
> translation process which goes totally crazy. That's why I see Weblate
> absolutely as a NO-GO, sorry. My personally opinion.

Weblate seems to be more like simple web interface to PO.  But its ease
of use without knowing PO building process make s XML tg errors
undetected and probably makes some other errors introduced by
un-experienced user.  Ease of use to get more contributor and getting
accountable contributor is tough decision.

> Holger
> 
> 
> > 
> > atzlinux
> > 
> > 在 2017年04月29日 03:38, Holger Wansing 写道:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Beatrice Torracca  wrote:
> > >> Package: debian-reference-it
> > >> Version: 2.64
> > >> Severity: wishlist
> > >>
> > >> Hi,
> > >>
> > >> I am (was? since I am not the Last-Translator) the current Italian
> > >> translator of the Debian Reference. I always kept it up to date (to
> > >> the best of my capabilities, of course).
> > >>
> > >> I saw that a recent change was made via Weblate (changing the
> > >> translator assignement, as I said).
> > > I just noticed this commit:
> > > https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/ddp/debian-reference.git/commit/
> > > and I assume that this should be reverted.
> > >
> > > This makes me scary about the quality of weblate contributions ...
> > >
> > > Does anyone watches/prooves that weblate contributions?
> > >
> > >
> > > I doubt that such contribution is of any help.
> > > So, weblate should be disabled here.
> > >
> > >
> > > Holger
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Created with Sylpheed 3.5.0 under
>   D E B I A N   L I N U X   8 . 0   " J E S S I E " .
> 
> Registered Linux User #311290 - https://linuxcounter.net/
> 

Bug#855179: debian-reference-it: Disable Weblate for currently .po and git maintaned Italian translation

[Holger Wansing]

Hi,

atzlinux  wrote:
> Hi,
> 
>  I'm sorry for just read this bug report.
> 
> I imported debian-reference to weblate at last year.
> 
> After weblate update,I merge and push weblate's git brach to git.debian.org.
> 
> debian-reference's many language translate had already finished,so they 
> not need to translate in weblate.
> 
> To aovid  the distrub from weblate for already finished language,I plan 
> to do this:
> 
> after I pull from weblate'git,I not change their po files.I'll reserver 
> their newest copy from git.debian.org in my local.
> 
> de.po   fr.po  it.po  ja.po  pt.po  ,if these five po files has any 
> error now,please help fixed in git.
> 
> zh-cn.po  zh-tw.po es.po fi.po nb.po ,these language will continuous use 
> weblate.
> 
> Is this OK?

Yes, that would be fine.

As Beatrice already wrote, there are translations in the Debian Reference
project, which are actively maintained by a translator, and importing them
into Weblate is _definitely_hijacking_!!!
And that's a absolute NO-GO!!!
Why import those up-to-date translations into Weblate at all? Those
translations do not need any help from help! They have a translator, which
does it job perfectly fine!

Moreover: when looking at the above mentioned Weblate contributions, I
see absolutely no reason, why Weblate is an option at all!
The above contribution makes me think, that the Weblate is a robot-based
translation process which goes totally crazy. That's why I see Weblate
absolutely as a NO-GO, sorry. My personally opinion.

Holger


> 
> atzlinux
> 
> 在 2017年04月29日 03:38, Holger Wansing 写道:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Beatrice Torracca  wrote:
> >> Package: debian-reference-it
> >> Version: 2.64
> >> Severity: wishlist
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I am (was? since I am not the Last-Translator) the current Italian
> >> translator of the Debian Reference. I always kept it up to date (to
> >> the best of my capabilities, of course).
> >>
> >> I saw that a recent change was made via Weblate (changing the
> >> translator assignement, as I said).
> > I just noticed this commit:
> > https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/ddp/debian-reference.git/commit/
> > and I assume that this should be reverted.
> >
> > This makes me scary about the quality of weblate contributions ...
> >
> > Does anyone watches/prooves that weblate contributions?
> >
> >
> > I doubt that such contribution is of any help.
> > So, weblate should be disabled here.
> >
> >
> > Holger
> >
> >
> 
> 


-- 

Created with Sylpheed 3.5.0 under
D E B I A N   L I N U X   8 . 0   " J E S S I E " .

Registered Linux User #311290 - https://linuxcounter.net/

Bug#855179: debian-reference-it: Disable Weblate for currently .po and git maintaned Italian translation

[Holger Wansing]

Hi,

Beatrice Torracca  wrote:
> Package: debian-reference-it
> Version: 2.64
> Severity: wishlist
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I am (was? since I am not the Last-Translator) the current Italian
> translator of the Debian Reference. I always kept it up to date (to
> the best of my capabilities, of course).
> 
> I saw that a recent change was made via Weblate (changing the
> translator assignement, as I said).

I just noticed this commit:
https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/ddp/debian-reference.git/commit/
and I assume that this should be reverted.

This makes me scary about the quality of weblate contributions ...

Does anyone watches/prooves that weblate contributions?


I doubt that such contribution is of any help.
So, weblate should be disabled here.


Holger


-- 

Created with Sylpheed 3.5.0 under
D E B I A N   L I N U X   8 . 0   " J E S S I E " .

Registered Linux User #311290 - https://linuxcounter.net/

Bug#855179: debian-reference-it: Disable Weblate for currently .po and git maintaned Italian translation

[Osamu Aoki]

Hi,

I have no idea how this weblate users got the indirect approval for the
write access to the many translation project.  I see both benefits and
risks.

This certainly expands the scope of contributor but at the same time
introduces noise and contribution from the unreachable person.  When
there is conflict or sloppy work, its hard to correct it.

Let me comment a bit more.

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 10:08:45PM +0100, Laura Arjona Reina wrote:
> Hi
> 
> El 15/02/17 a las 21:23, Helge Kreutzmann escribió:
> > Hello Holger,
> > On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 07:46:15PM +0100, Holger Wansing wrote:
> >> I totally support this request.
> > 
> > I totally agree to you both as well, especially Beatrice, given 
> > that I do the same for those translations where I'm listed as 
> > last translator.

Problem here is the contributor via weblate may not get exposed to all
the comments reminding new contributors how to contribute.  Also, most
of the existing translators does not know how the weblate works.  So we
do not know how to inform weblate users.

> >> I am unsure, when this Weblate thing has entered Debian ... ?
> >>
> >> How does this work?
> >>
> >> Did I miss an announcement about this on debian-i18n or something like 
> >> that?
> > 
> > This is the first time I'm informed about weblate, so I would like to
> > get some more information as well, especially how to configure
> > (disable) it for those translations where I'm responsible for.
> > 
> 
> I guess this is a decision about how to handle translations just for
> the package debian-reference in particular.

I did not set up but noticed this via broken po entries etc.
 
> I know that other Debian packages are handled using weblate too, at
> least for several languages. The debian-handbook comes to mind.
> 
> I am a weblate user (translator) in hosted.weblate.org for other
> project (F-Droid) and when I login, I can lock a translation so it
> only allows me work on it. Maybe that's a workaround for all the
> languages that have a translation-maintainer that does not work with
> Weblate.
> 
> Weblate also allows to members of a project to receive notifications
> about many different events that happen (updated strings, updated
> translations, new people joining the project, etc). Maybe that helps, too.

Problem is none of the existing translator knows how we should deal
with.  But I see chinese iand spanish translations of Debian reference
seems to get some improvements.
   https://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=ddp/debian-reference.git

> CC'ing Osamu Aouki, the maintainer of debian-reference package,
> (probably knowing how is the current workflow or having better ideas
> than me).

I want to know too ;-)

> Maybe a mention of the proposed workflow for translator should be made
> in the README file, too. I suggest to use
> https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/debian-handbook/debian-handbook.git/tree/README.translators
> as reference, since that project also uses weblate for some languages,
> and the usual git commits for others.

Does weblate user read this?

Osamu

Bug#855179: debian-reference-it: Disable Weblate for currently .po and git maintaned Italian translation

[Laura Arjona Reina]

Hi

El 15/02/17 a las 21:23, Helge Kreutzmann escribió:
> Hello Holger,
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 07:46:15PM +0100, Holger Wansing wrote:
>> I totally support this request.
> 
> I totally agree to you both as well, especially Beatrice, given 
> that I do the same for those translations where I'm listed as 
> last translator.
> 
>> I am unsure, when this Weblate thing has entered Debian ... ?
>>
>> How does this work?
>>
>> Did I miss an announcement about this on debian-i18n or something like that?
> 
> This is the first time I'm informed about weblate, so I would like to
> get some more information as well, especially how to configure
> (disable) it for those translations where I'm responsible for.
> 

I guess this is a decision about how to handle translations just for
the package debian-reference in particular.

I know that other Debian packages are handled using weblate too, at
least for several languages. The debian-handbook comes to mind.

I am a weblate user (translator) in hosted.weblate.org for other
project (F-Droid) and when I login, I can lock a translation so it
only allows me work on it. Maybe that's a workaround for all the
languages that have a translation-maintainer that does not work with
Weblate.

Weblate also allows to members of a project to receive notifications
about many different events that happen (updated strings, updated
translations, new people joining the project, etc). Maybe that helps, too.

CC'ing Osamu Aouki, the maintainer of debian-reference package,
(probably knowing how is the current workflow or having better ideas
than me).

Maybe a mention of the proposed workflow for translator should be made
in the README file, too. I suggest to use
https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/debian-handbook/debian-handbook.git/tree/README.translators
as reference, since that project also uses weblate for some languages,
and the usual git commits for others.

Cheers
-- 
Laura Arjona Reina
https://wiki.debian.org/LauraArjona

Bug#855179: debian-reference-it: Disable Weblate for currently .po and git maintaned Italian translation

[Holger Wansing]

Hi,

Beatrice Torracca  wrote:
> I saw that a recent change was made via Weblate (changing the
> translator assignement, as I said).
> 
> I always assumed that Weblate was enabled only for those languages who
> did not have an official translator in the Debian project.
> 
> In the past I sent my translations for review in the
> debian-l10n-italian mailing list the first time and for any major
> change. And I did commit my translations.
> 
> I understand that translation, like everything else in Debian, is a
> community work. But as a wishlist I would like to ask to enable
> Weblate only for those languages that don't have an official/active
> translator; or at least to disable it for those languages that have an
> active translator and request it.
> 
> I feel that translation needs consistency and review, when possible
> (think of a scenario where everyone was able to do NMU on every
> package...I think every developer would be very wary of such a situation).
> 
> In my case, I feel like I would have to either recheck every change
> made or abandon a translation that I worked a lot on (the Debian
> Reference is quite a big document) but that I can not guarantee the
> quality of (even if possibly the quality of the Weblate one would be
> better than mine).
> 
> Moreover being noted as the Last-Translator in the .po header, I
> always replied to any call for update or any other request of
> information/correction. So I think that having someone in the
> Last-Translator field who is officially responsible of a translation
> is a plus. The same is true for the Language Team header that was
> changed from "Italian " to
> "Italian
> ". I
> have no idea if/where the Weblate Italian team is reachable (hopefully
> mails would ge redirected to the correct debian-l10n- team.
> 
> This is just a general wishlist based on my past experience with
> Weblate; it has nothing to do specifically with the person or the
> quality of the recent change (1 string, correct as far as I can see)
> made via Weblate to the Italian translation.
> 
> I put on CC the debian-i18n mailing list because I see that
> translation are moving more and more towards Weblate and I would like
> to point out this side of having an uncontrolled/unreviewed source for
> Debian translations. I apologize for the noise if the CC was out of place.

I totally support this request.

I have already noticed one of "my" translations being hijacked by Weblate
service, where one string (!) (an URL, to be strict) was translated.
That did not gave much value to the translation.
And it looks to me like working without any concept.

Moreover, translations in Debian are community work, which means working
together, as a team. Hijacking translations is not fine style.
At least I have learned it like this here in Debian.

Also, anonymous translations have been disapproved in several other Debian
sub-projects, since you cannot communicate with the translator, to inform
about errors or to ensure consistency with terms. I feel, this Weblate
translations are also some sort of this "anonymous" translations, especially
because they happen without coordination, as it seems.


I am unsure, when this Weblate thing has entered Debian ... ?

How does this work?

Did I miss an announcement about this on debian-i18n or something like that?


Regards
Holger


-- 

Created with Sylpheed 3.5.0 under
D E B I A N   L I N U X   8 . 0   " J E S S I E " .

Registered Linux User #311290 - https://linuxcounter.net/

Bug#855179: debian-reference-it: Disable Weblate for currently .po and git maintaned Italian translation

[Beatrice Torracca]

Package: debian-reference-it
Version: 2.64
Severity: wishlist

Hi,

I am (was? since I am not the Last-Translator) the current Italian
translator of the Debian Reference. I always kept it up to date (to
the best of my capabilities, of course).

I saw that a recent change was made via Weblate (changing the
translator assignement, as I said).

I always assumed that Weblate was enabled only for those languages who
did not have an official translator in the Debian project.

In the past I sent my translations for review in the
debian-l10n-italian mailing list the first time and for any major
change. And I did commit my translations.

I understand that translation, like everything else in Debian, is a
community work. But as a wishlist I would like to ask to enable
Weblate only for those languages that don't have an official/active
translator; or at least to disable it for those languages that have an
active translator and request it.

I feel that translation needs consistency and review, when possible
(think of a scenario where everyone was able to do NMU on every
package...I think every developer would be very wary of such a situation).

In my case, I feel like I would have to either recheck every change
made or abandon a translation that I worked a lot on (the Debian
Reference is quite a big document) but that I can not guarantee the
quality of (even if possibly the quality of the Weblate one would be
better than mine).

Moreover being noted as the Last-Translator in the .po header, I
always replied to any call for update or any other request of
information/correction. So I think that having someone in the
Last-Translator field who is officially responsible of a translation
is a plus. The same is true for the Language Team header that was
changed from "Italian " to
"Italian
". I
have no idea if/where the Weblate Italian team is reachable (hopefully
mails would ge redirected to the correct debian-l10n- team.

This is just a general wishlist based on my past experience with
Weblate; it has nothing to do specifically with the person or the
quality of the recent change (1 string, correct as far as I can see)
made via Weblate to the Italian translation.

I put on CC the debian-i18n mailing list because I see that
translation are moving more and more towards Weblate and I would like
to point out this side of having an uncontrolled/unreviewed source for
Debian translations. I apologize for the noise if the CC was out of place.

Thanks,

Beatrice