in
| combination with other issues. Were I filing this as a bug, I'd probably
| use severity: important.
This is trivial to work around -- use VERP and you never have to parse a
bounce again.
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realistically isn't going to make that big of a
| difference to the problem of unparseable bounces, and qmail is *far* from
| the only offender.
Very much agreed on those points.
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name.
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]] Ian Jackson
Tollef Fog Heen writes (Re: Bug#665851: Bug#597050: GNU parallel, name
conflict with moreutils):
]] Joey Hess
- The --tollef compatability option was, AFAIK, named without getting
the permission of the person it refers to, and therefore essentially
drags his
to avoid it coming back in wheezy.
A somewhat tangential question here – is this a general requirement?
Doesn't that prevent maintainers from (worst case) ever upgrading
Recommends to Depends? I'm worried about what precedent this would be
setting.
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gone on the lists, etc.
I'm not involved in the GNOME packaging myself, so I am in no way
speaking on behalf of them.
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-without-nm package in the pkg-gnome repository. Somebody who
cares would have to do that work, though, and I did not see anybody
stepping forward to do so, so perhaps the demand isn't actually that
large?
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the NM daemon starts again --
which on Sid happens fairly regularly.
If that happens, that sounds like a serious bug, so please file it so it
can get fixed regardless of the outcome of the vote.
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]] Ian Jackson
10. We therefore formally reprimand Josselin Mouette. We consider his
behaviour deliberately obstructive and obtuse.
I don't think it's within the mandate of the tech-ctte to reprimand any
developers.
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the earlier move
to gnome-core's dependency list), and so I think it makes sense that
this is somehow reflected in the metapackage. And, as you say, gnome is
a kitchen sink already and so one more thing (even something that can be
as intrusive as NM) doesn't really change that much.
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in the users's best interest either.
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, release-critical, bug.
It seems NM is being singled out here, but I think if you apply that
standard to NM, it should apply to _all_ tools, not just NM.
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]] Don Armstrong
On Sat, 10 Nov 2012, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
]] Ian Jackson
Perhaps a better approach would be this, post-wheezy:
While n-m remains a Depends of gnome or gnome-core, any bug report
from a user that installing n-m broke their system's networking
]] Don Armstrong
On Sat, 10 Nov 2012, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
Then I would suggest saying that in the resolution, rather than
singling out NM here.
I think it does (While n-m remains a Depends of gnome or
gnome-core), but feel free to point out clearer wording.
«Any bug report against
this.
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]] Steve Langasek
On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 09:50:37AM +0100, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
]] Steve Langasek
- Installing the gnome or the NM package must not cause the network to
break on upgrade, even temporarily, under any circumstances.
Is this a requirement for other network
disagree, let's explore this further.
I don't think I've said it blocks NM from doing the right thing. I've
said it's a bug in ifupdown.
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]] Andreas Barth
* Tollef Fog Heen (tfh...@err.no) [121214 08:50]:
]] Steve Langasek
- Installing the gnome or the NM package must not cause the network to
break on upgrade, even temporarily, under any circumstances.
Is this a requirement for other network-providing
upgrade had
gone awry, the company I did the work for would have incurred a cost in
the millions of NOK, since they'd have to send people to each location
to reinitialise the meters. This is a bit of an extreme example and not
particularly common, but the impact can be very large.)
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.)
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, in an ideal world this shouldn't be a problem, but
until somebody comes up with a fix, that's what we have to work with.
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to the upstart configuration.
ExecStartPre=/bin/false
will make the service be considered failed. The ExecStartPre line can
of course be an executable that implements more checking or logic.
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://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2013-November/014797.html
So they see it as pointless, but will be supported for a long time.
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script that needs a writable directory in /run to
handle permissions, ownership and creation, rather than just having a
single declarative file listing what it needs and the bootup process
ensuring that exists.
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I forwarded your question about code documentation to Lennart, and the
attached mail is his answer.
---BeginMessage---
On Thu, 05.12.13 22:19, Tollef Fog Heen (tfh...@err.no) wrote:
Hiya,
I poked you on IRC about this, but I suspect it disappeared in the
noise. Any chance you could
or anything at that point.
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that doesn’t force
users to do locked upgrades.
We need systemd in the chroot if we want to support containers through
mechanisms such as systemd-nspawn.
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activation or a
synchronisation point. If you don't have other services depending on
the service in question, just omit Type from the systemd unit and it'll
default to simple (aka «run in the foreground»).
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for
libraries and such if they find that tedious.
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]] Russ Allbery
Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no writes:
sd-daemon.c is also intentionally designed to not have dependencies on
the rest of the systemd source and to be portable to non-linux
architectures too (but basically just stubs then) just so people can put
the file in their source
in a loop. systemd's docs (at
least that I can find) don't have a similar recipe, but systemd has all
the tools required to do the same thing.
The ideomatic systemd way seems to be to use a target for it. Take a
look at how getty.target works, for instance.
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, not just foo, I think, though.
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direction?
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. I am not going to carry patches in systemd in Debian for a
Debian-only notification protocol because you don't want to use the
upstream protocol.
As I've said in other messages, feel free to talk to upstream, but I'm
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]] Tollef Fog Heen
]] Ian Jackson
I conclude therefore that we should design another simple protocol -
preferably, a variation on one of the existing ones - and have (at
least) both Debian's systemd and Debian's upstart implement it.
I think you're into ever-multiplying power socket
, DefaultDependencies will be true and you'll have an
After=basic.target in your service.
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case for kFreeBSD is on the server side, and not as a GNOME
workstation. I also realise a file system is not on the same magnitude
for a distribution as an entire desktop environment, but we're looking
at degrees here anyway, not a black and white picture.
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]] Ian Jackson
Tollef Fog Heen writes (Bug#727708: init system other points, and
conclusion):
Ian Jackson:
This is exacerbated by the fact that systemd's Debian maintainers are
(IMO) much too deferential to upstream.
That's because the bits of systemd you've asked to change isn't
it in the meantime, going
with Raphael's suggestion seems reasonable enough.
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]] cameron
On Mon, Dec 30, 2013 at 9:43 AM, Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no wrote:
If this is not required by systemd, why is it done by sd_notify ?
It's not.
You obviously did not read the code. It is. Here is a G+ convo with
Lennart I had:
As a sender you only have to set
to use a compatible init system should be ok too,
if somebody wants to do that.
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different ideas about what «network online»
means.)
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dependencies which I consider undesirable ?
If find it incredible that you consider adding 18 lines of
unconditional code to your daemon unreasonable, while forcing the
systemd maintainers to split the package, add explicitly rejected
upstream-incompatible features reasonable.
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the patches from Ubuntu
integrated, but AIUI, he's not been able to offer a long-term commitment
to maintaining the patches, and I think it's a very bad idea to merge a
patchset that nobody in the team wants to maintain long-term.)
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]] Christoph Anton Mitterer
On Tue, 2013-12-31 at 21:07 +0100, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
That's handled by the initramfs where we currently don't use systemd.
(It's supported upstream to do so and we might eventually investigate
that, but I don't believe anybody has done any work
as to work with upstart as the
init system, and which conflicts with systemd as it is currently packaged.
The way things are going, I don't think that'd be a terrible situation,
tbh.
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process, and then you
*also* need to look at the env var for it
17:17 poettering hope that makes sense
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it might well be the fundamental disagreement, since I believe
there is value by us helping other distributions catch up and
accomodating their use cases where we reasonably can.
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a configuration file
tells it to, is wrong.
I think it's a bad thing to overspecify how a daemon is configured,
which I think you're doing here.
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to require upstart and systemd to continue to
support sysvinit. I'm not even sure what that would mean, in particular
in the case of systemd-sysv whose sole purpose is to replace sysvinit.
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and with the explicit understanding of the
TC that if the necessary manpower to do that work disappears we will not
be holding to rest of the init system back. It might be that packaging
up logind completely separately by such a person (or team) might be a
better approach (as you suggest).
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]] Steve Langasek
On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 09:09:52PM +0100, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
]] Ian Jackson
I think you have misunderstood. Or perhaps I hae misunderstood you.
The work that I'm saying needs to be done anyway is the work to
disentange the parts of systemd which are required
in the constitution. The release team is the team
that sets RC policies and I'm not aware of any failed attempts at
arriving at a consensus with them or that they've delegated the decision
to the CTTE.
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]] Ian Jackson
Tollef Fog Heen writes (Bug#727708: Init system resolution open questions):
[Ian Jackson]:
As I mentioned on IRC, I think we need to get some clear answers to
certain questions from everybody.
It's not clear to me that the CTTE is allowed to rule on a bunch
, to handle
interfaces going away.
Another alternative is having multiple instance services and using
BindTo=sys-subsystem-net-devices-%i.device (like ifup@.service is
doing).
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that they're uploading
packages which are not appropriate for the archive, it's that they don't
understand why that is a problem.
You can't regulate «don't be crazy», since if people want to, or don't
understand what crazy means they will route around such a decision using
technicalities.
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]] Adrian Bunk
On Sun, Jan 19, 2014 at 11:00:01AM +0100, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
]] Adrian Bunk
I already gave my hypothetical udev gets a hard dependency on systemd
as init system worst case.
To make the worst case even worse, assume a new upstream version of
systemd
risking being struck down. It's a
somewhat separate discussion from the whole «what should be the default
init system» discussion, but it's one we (as a project) should be having
at some point.
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, though. You
can still use service to start/stop services, for instance.)
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]] Steve Langasek
On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 08:27:47AM +0100, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
GNOME certainly uses these interfaces already. Whether they should be
considered a dependency or not is probably something that should be left
to the maintainers' discretion. But I think they should
be overridden about this.
On top of all this, I think keep harping on it while we're all waiting
for the CTTE to finish making up its mind is asking the wrong entity to
act.
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choices are done by us in Debian, not upstream.)
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]] Colin Watson
On Sun, Feb 02, 2014 at 12:57:39PM +0100, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
]] Colin Watson
The de facto interface for making an init system the default is to
install it as /sbin/init. While I'm coming at this from a starting
point different from Cameron's above - I haven't
.
Can you please find another dead horse to flog soon?
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as such, but «annoyed and unwilling to spend effort
that might be wasted».
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. It's not how we usually treat bugs.
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]] Don Armstrong
#topic #733452 init system readiness protocol
This was closed by Ian, so why is it on the agenda?
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political leaders make technical decisions is
bad policy.
It also means the CTTE is no longer self-contained and half the point of
having a chairman disappears.
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),
there has been something resembling consensus on debian-devel.
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]] Cameron Norman
Please trim bits you're not replying to.
El mar, 21 de oct 2014 a las 10:19 , Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no
escribió:
]] Russ Allbery
I would be particularly interested in your take on the analysis
that Steve Langasek posted to the debian-devel thread on why
listing
issue:
Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no writes:
In a steady state, this would probably be ok. However, we've so far seen
two instances of -shim breaking for systemd users
(https://bugs.debian.org/746242 and https://bugs.debian.org/765101), by
shipping outdated security policies. We
?
It's less work to just document how to keep sysvinit in the release
notes, something I surely hope we're going to do anyway.
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]] Martin Pitt
Tollef Fog Heen [2014-10-21 19:19 +0200]:
I would be particularly interested in your take on the analysis that Steve
Langasek posted to the debian-devel thread on why listing systemd-shim as
the first alternative dependency for libpam-systemd makes sense and should
]] Tollef Fog Heen
]] Martin Pitt
Tollef Fog Heen [2014-10-21 19:19 +0200]:
I would be particularly interested in your take on the analysis that
Steve
Langasek posted to the debian-devel thread on why listing systemd-shim
as
the first alternative dependency for libpam
]] Russ Allbery
Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no writes:
]] Russ Allbery
Thanks, Tollef! Okay, so there does appear to be a conflict here. It
sounds like your primary technical concern, not addressed by Martin's
mail, is that getting the dependencies right to install systemd
.)
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from
the various indices.)
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think that would be appropriate at this stage of the freeze.
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which of sysvinits interfaces were part of the
essentialness and which are not. I kinda wish we'd fix that at some
point, to make it easier to swap out (or get rid of) Essential packages.
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]] Cameron Norman
On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 11:15 PM, Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no wrote:
]] Cameron Norman
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 6:10 PM, Adam Borowski kilob...@angband.pl wrote:
On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 05:29:42PM -0800, Cameron Norman wrote:
I would like to propose a different
are referencing is probably a
nasty bug that could be fixed.
I believe Adam refers to the fact that the cryptsetup support in systemd
doesn't support keyscript= in crypttab.
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]] Bdale Garbee
=== BEGIN
The Technical Committee Chairman should be:
A: Don Armstrong
B: Andreas Barth
C: Steve Langasek
D: Keith Packard
E: Didier Raboud
F: Tollef Fog Heen
G: Sam Hartman
== END
I can only echo Bdale's words both thanking
.
Fortunately, it doesn't matter, except for a couple day delay.
Andreas You could vote:
I didn't think that's permissible on a ballot without FD.
I don't see why it wouldn't be? It'd be the same as
A|B|C|D|E…
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then I don't think anybody would have a problem with it.)
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candidate for the TC.
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email never works well. :-)
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the same. The message we send might not be
the entirely the same, but I'd rather get it unblocked than have «my»
solution be preferred.
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with a subject
of comments before calling for
a vote.
I've changed my mind about pushing for having my suggested solution on
the ballot, so if you'd just want to write up your text, that'd be great
and we can get this done.
Apologies for taking so long to get around to writing this.
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= D = E
Regular schedule:
E = B = A F = G = H = I = J O Z K = L = M = N = C = D
I think I got that right. Quite a few options. :-)
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Hi all,
2015-03-29 21:19 Tollef Fog Heen:
]] Christian PERRIER
Hi bubulle!
Quoting Axel Beckert (a...@debian.org):
In the long run I'd like to see even more people working on Aptitude.
But for that, a possessive lead developer or power games are quite
hindering. IMHO one
on this before even more time
passes. Opinions?
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.)
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is earlier).
I'm happy with either, so from my pov we can just move to a vote.
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e below; feel free to make changes in git.
[...]
Sounds reasonable to me. Not sure if three months is a bit too high,
but on the other hand, one month might be a bit low, so I'm ok with it.
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