Re: Making Debian available, non-free promotor
On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 01:38:24PM +0100, Ansgar wrote: > Yao Wei writes: > >> We encourage you to get devices that respects your freedom. > > Should this message also be shown when non-free firmware is preinstalled > in the system for educational purposes? > > Or do devices that have pre-installed non-free firmware respect the > user's freedom? As long as the users doesn't look and doesn't hear > about it, it's not there after all (two-wise-monkey-free / FSF-free?). > The best example probably are TiVo devices which don't have > user-upgradable firmware and thus should be called "freedom respecting" > ;-) > > We could also recommend users to just install Debian in a VM which > abstracts away the hardware, e.g., in a VM under Windows. This also > respects user freedom in the same sense as above as Windows is usually > preinstalled. (And AFAIU on modern systems Debian will usually run in > some partition anyway and not have full hardware access, so it already > runs in a "VM" of sorts.) > It is to describe the DFSG-freedom we value. I know that having upgradable non-free firmware is better than having non-upgradable firmware in case if there's vulnerability we need to address. If we find it not suitable, we can remove the text if that is going to be implemented. Of course it is easier to use Debian inside VM, but that is not the situation we would like to address. > iwlwifi does work fine with just free software just like hard disks and > similar? This listing is to list the packages that the user needs to download into the flash drive. In my case, iwlwifi requires additional firmware so I picked it as an example. And, the reason that I am picking networking, is that when system is installed with networking, the user can then download packages for other devices that require non-free packages to work. Usability wise, the message on the non-free firmware loading in debian-installer is not prominent enough, that people needs to discover it through manual. (This is also the case of the behavior in d-i that it installs sudo when root password is empty.) I would imagine that people just download ISO, install, and they would consult search engines for the problems they encounter, without realizing we have such function built into our installer. Thanks, Yao Wei signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Making Debian available, non-free promotor
Yao Wei writes: > At then, we can let users download the missing drivers from the > generated webpage, like the following: > >> Additional packages for the network interface >> == >> >> As Debian is the universal operating system, we consider both users >> and free software important. However, the network device of the >> computer requires firmware that is not available in the installation >> media, because these are considered non-free according to our >> guideline. >> >> We encourage you to get devices that respects your freedom. Should this message also be shown when non-free firmware is preinstalled in the system for educational purposes? Or do devices that have pre-installed non-free firmware respect the user's freedom? As long as the users doesn't look and doesn't hear about it, it's not there after all (two-wise-monkey-free / FSF-free?). The best example probably are TiVo devices which don't have user-upgradable firmware and thus should be called "freedom respecting" ;-) We could also recommend users to just install Debian in a VM which abstracts away the hardware, e.g., in a VM under Windows. This also respects user freedom in the same sense as above as Windows is usually preinstalled. (And AFAIU on modern systems Debian will usually run in some partition anyway and not have full hardware access, so it already runs in a "VM" of sorts.) >> Meanwhile, you can either try another device that's known good using >> only free software, or download the .deb package(s) linked below and >> put into the same place this file resides: >> >> --- >> >> firmware-iwlwifi >> - for: Network Controller: Intel Corporation Wireless 8265 / 8275 >> - https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/firmware-iwlwifi iwlwifi does work fine with just free software just like hard disks and similar? Ansgar
Re: Making Debian available, non-free promotor
Hi, Paul Sutton wrote: > > > On 29/01/2021 03:23, Yao Wei wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Could there be the way that, with installer unable to connect to the > > internet, it detects the list of missing blobs, and generate a webpage > > in the thumb drive, and let user plug in another flash drive to download > > them. > > I agree with this idea, it would be really helpful, in fact the step in > the installer that asks for a driver disk could perhaps be removed, So > in terms of extra steps remove one, add this. Again: a mechanism doing exactly this is already there, and it's documented here: https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch06s04.en.html -- Holger Wansing PGP-Fingerprint: 496A C6E8 1442 4B34 8508 3529 59F1 87CA 156E B076
Re: Making Debian available, non-free promotor
On 29/01/2021 03:23, Yao Wei wrote: Hi, Could there be the way that, with installer unable to connect to the internet, it detects the list of missing blobs, and generate a webpage in the thumb drive, and let user plug in another flash drive to download them. I agree with this idea, it would be really helpful, in fact the step in the installer that asks for a driver disk could perhaps be removed, So in terms of extra steps remove one, add this. Perhaps however as there is also an automated install / unintended install option this could be part of that too so subsequent installs could pull in the extra drivers once downloaded. Paul At then, we can let users download the missing drivers from the generated webpage, like the following: Additional packages for the network interface == As Debian is the universal operating system, we consider both users and free software important. However, the network device of the computer requires firmware that is not available in the installation media, because these are considered non-free according to our guideline. We encourage you to get devices that respects your freedom. Meanwhile, you can either try another device that's known good using only free software, or download the .deb package(s) linked below and put into the same place this file resides: --- firmware-iwlwifi - for: Network Controller: Intel Corporation Wireless 8265 / 8275 - https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/firmware-iwlwifi I realize that it is an additional step that may stop users from using Debian. But if we do not want to lower the priority of free software in favor to the user, we have to increase the usability for people with non-free devices in DFSG-only realm. Just 2 cents, Yao Wei -- Paul Sutton https://personaljournal.ca/paulsutton/ OpenPGP: 4350 91C4 C8FB 681B 23A6 7944 8EA9 1B51 E27E 3D99 Fosdem 2021 6th-7th Feb 2021 : https://fosdem.org/2021 LibrePlanet 2021 - March 20th - 21st - https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Main_Page OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Making Debian available, non-free promotor
Hi, Could there be the way that, with installer unable to connect to the internet, it detects the list of missing blobs, and generate a webpage in the thumb drive, and let user plug in another flash drive to download them. At then, we can let users download the missing drivers from the generated webpage, like the following: > Additional packages for the network interface > == > > As Debian is the universal operating system, we consider both users > and free software important. However, the network device of the > computer requires firmware that is not available in the installation > media, because these are considered non-free according to our > guideline. > > We encourage you to get devices that respects your freedom. > > Meanwhile, you can either try another device that's known good using > only free software, or download the .deb package(s) linked below and > put into the same place this file resides: > > --- > > firmware-iwlwifi > - for: Network Controller: Intel Corporation Wireless 8265 / 8275 > - https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/firmware-iwlwifi I realize that it is an additional step that may stop users from using Debian. But if we do not want to lower the priority of free software in favor to the user, we have to increase the usability for people with non-free devices in DFSG-only realm. Just 2 cents, Yao Wei signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Making Debian available, non-free promotor
On Jan 28, "Daniel S." wrote: > This image does not provide unfree WiFi firmware. It is not just about Wi-Fi but also audio, video and wired Ethernet. > This gives visibility to the actual problem and the only true solution. There is really no reason to believe that, even with significant funding, it will be possible in the next dacade to develop free firmwares for a non-trivial number of adapters. -- ciao, Marco signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Making Debian available, non-free promotor
On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 09:44:36AM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote: > On 2021/01/28 01:49, Daniel S. wrote: > > The hope would be that, after collecting a 5 figure sum has been > > donated, paid developers work on freeing the most common firmware(s). > > If that was enough to free up firmware, we'd probably have figured out a > way to pay that right away without even spending time doing additional > fund raising. I do read that as "Lets figure out the other options" Regards Geert Stappers DD -- Silence is hard to parse
Re: Making Debian available, non-free promotor
On 2021/01/28 01:49, Daniel S. wrote: > The hope would be that, after collecting a 5 figure sum has been > donated, paid developers work on freeing the most common firmware(s). If that was enough to free up firmware, we'd probably have figured out a way to pay that right away without even spending time doing additional fund raising. -Jonathan
Re: Making Debian available, non-free promotor
On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 12:49:43AM +0100, Daniel S. wrote: > * Consider donating $25 to our __free-WiFi-fund__ to free your adapter > firmware What fund? > This gives visibility to the actual problem and the only true solution. What true solution? > It works towards a future, where the free image is no longer "broken for > ordinary users" > Instead of compromising Debian values, it highlights them. > The hope would be that, after collecting a 5 figure sum has been > donated, paid developers work on freeing the most common firmware(s). ... that's not how it works. -- WBR, wRAR signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Making Debian available, non-free promotor
I'd like to propose a solution that helps both, the user and Debian: Add a message like this on the downloads page: ## NOTE: This image does not provide unfree WiFi firmware. If you have a WiFi adapter, it will most likely not work. (__learn more__) * Consider using __this__ image instead. * Consider donating $25 to our __free-WiFi-fund__ to free your adapter firmware Learn more: __What is non-free firmware & why should I care?__ ## This gives visibility to the actual problem and the only true solution. It works towards a future, where the free image is no longer "broken for ordinary users" Instead of compromising Debian values, it highlights them. The hope would be that, after collecting a 5 figure sum has been donated, paid developers work on freeing the most common firmware(s). A similar message could be shown during / after installation, IF use of an unfree WiFi blob is detected: "Consider donating to free the firmware of your adapter, Qualcomm Atheros AR9462" (Of course, a disclaimer needs to be in place that it can neither be guaranteed that any blob can be successfully be replaced, nor that this specific one can or will be worked on) Daniel
Re: Making Debian available, non-free promotor
On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 07:56:30PM +0100, Philipp Kern wrote: > On 15.01.21 13:42, Ansgar wrote: > > On Tue, 2021-01-12 at 19:30 +0100, Geert Stappers wrote: > >> Ah, yes I also wonder how much the world will improve > >> if non-free would be split in non-free and non-free-firmware. > >> Currently is non free firmware a hugh promoter of non-free in > >> /etc/apt/sources.list > > > > I proposed moving non-free firmware to a new non-free-firmware some > > time ago[1], but then it seemed like there was no consensus on this > > which I though we had before. Some people wanted non-free/firmware > > instead (different name), wanted packages to start appearing in > > multiple components (non-free and non-free[/-]firmware), wanted > > additional categories (e.g. non-free/doc for Free Software Foundation > > stuff), wanted non-free drivers as well, wanted major changes how > > components work (which might imply incompatible changes for mirroring > > tools and so on), ... > > I idly wonder if we could call it firmware and call it a day. I tried to > propose that a bunch of times and was not successful either (e.g. it was > unclear to me if that needed a GR). > This is now hitting sites like LWN and The Register. There's a convenience factor and a free software factor - either way, we're putting off our new users. Pragmatically: Can I suggest a revamp of the web pages - perhaps along the following lines: 1. A clear pointer to the existing Debian offiical image hierarchy * pointing out that this does NOT contain firmware which might be necessary for some wifi / video cards.** * Pointing out also that this image is ideal for VMs / containers where the firmware is dealt with by the underlying OS. * Pointing out also that this is the official image that is tested when we do point releases (we don't and can't test every possible iteration of firmware - and that point can be reiterated at 4 below if necessary). * Pointing out that this is the image we can fix when stuff goes wrong :) [** Also put an "in case of problems" pointer to the instructions for how to add firmware by other methods in case someone finds part way through an install that they're stuck.] A pointer at the same relative level to the existing Debian unofficial image [See further 4. below] 2. A short guide as to how to find out what firmware you need BEFORE you install Debian and notes as to what that might be - which firmware corresponds to which package. with, possibly, a separate 3. Further reading guide with pointers to Wiki or elsewhere dealing with: * Specific hardware problems * UsingDebianOn Wiki pages * Problematic chipsets where you might have to compile from a Github repository * Build and use DKMS modules (advanced users only) * A pointer about things like the Raspberry Pi which require a different approach to non-free firmware. 4. A pointer to the images including firmware with a note making explicit that this is provided for the convenience of users who otherwise would be unable to install Debian at all: * a pointer about how to limit the amount of non-free firmware you install to the necessary packages, * that you don't need every firmware package, * that some firmware packages conflict * Perhaps a pointer to using USB-Ethernet adapters as a straightforward way round some of the issues for an install fest. This doesn't change anything in our approach - it is explicit. As to how to split up non-free - I leave that to others and another GR :( Andy Cater > I guess better non-free filtering would not be a bad idea, though. For > the buildd network it is also still an unsolved question how to allow > build-depending on a (small, allowlisted) subset of non-free. > > Kind regards > Philipp Kern >
Re: Making Debian available, non-free promotor
On 15.01.21 13:42, Ansgar wrote: > On Tue, 2021-01-12 at 19:30 +0100, Geert Stappers wrote: >> Ah, yes I also wonder how much the world will improve >> if non-free would be split in non-free and non-free-firmware. >> Currently is non free firmware a hugh promoter of non-free in >> /etc/apt/sources.list > > I proposed moving non-free firmware to a new non-free-firmware some > time ago[1], but then it seemed like there was no consensus on this > which I though we had before. Some people wanted non-free/firmware > instead (different name), wanted packages to start appearing in > multiple components (non-free and non-free[/-]firmware), wanted > additional categories (e.g. non-free/doc for Free Software Foundation > stuff), wanted non-free drivers as well, wanted major changes how > components work (which might imply incompatible changes for mirroring > tools and so on), ... I idly wonder if we could call it firmware and call it a day. I tried to propose that a bunch of times and was not successful either (e.g. it was unclear to me if that needed a GR). I guess better non-free filtering would not be a bad idea, though. For the buildd network it is also still an unsolved question how to allow build-depending on a (small, allowlisted) subset of non-free. Kind regards Philipp Kern
Re: Making Debian available, non-free promotor
On Tue, 2021-01-12 at 19:30 +0100, Geert Stappers wrote: > Ah, yes I also wonder how much the world will improve > if non-free would be split in non-free and non-free-firmware. > Currently is non free firmware a hugh promoter of non-free in > /etc/apt/sources.list I proposed moving non-free firmware to a new non-free-firmware some time ago[1], but then it seemed like there was no consensus on this which I though we had before. Some people wanted non-free/firmware instead (different name), wanted packages to start appearing in multiple components (non-free and non-free[/-]firmware), wanted additional categories (e.g. non-free/doc for Free Software Foundation stuff), wanted non-free drivers as well, wanted major changes how components work (which might imply incompatible changes for mirroring tools and so on), ... As I wasn't motivated for a new topic for long discussions in addition to systemd and usrmerge nor for spending much time on implementing more support for (mostly?) non-free stuff I left things as they are. (Nor would I be too motivated to then read "but it's wrong" for many years later as with the other topics...) Ansgar [1]: https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/87ziwfauw3@deep-thought.43-1.org
Re: Making Debian available, non-free promotor
On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 05:14:14PM +0100, Sven Joachim wrote: > On 2021-01-12 16:36 +0100, Geert Stappers wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 02:48:22PM +, Dan Pal wrote: > >> Hello Debian Developers, > > > > Hello World, > > > > > >> I am writing to you from my Debian-Buster 10.6 laptop – that used > >> to be a Windows 10 laptop. I would not be using Debian at all except I > >> was able to find a dvd version at debian.org to install. I couldn’t > >> install from a net install version because of my wireless chipset not > >> being supported directly by Debian. The current policy of hiding other > >> versions of Debian is limiting the adoption of your OS by people like > >> me who are interested in moving from Windows 10. > > > > Seen the "I think it could be better", not yet seen the "how" > > > > > > Please elaborate the improvement. > > Provide a way to discover the working netinst with non-free firmware, > right now it seems to be impossible to find. Ah, yes I also wonder how much the world will improve if non-free would be split in non-free and non-free-firmware. Currently is non free firmware a hugh promoter of non-free in /etc/apt/sources.list > The official netinst image advertised on the homepage is for servers and > virtual machines only. How is an average user of Windows or even other > GNU/Linux distributions supposed to know that official Debian images do > not offer network access during installation on desktops and laptops? Regards Geert Stappers -- Silence is hard to parse
