Re: Call to fork
On 11 Feb 2014, at 16:40, Matthias Urlichs sm...@smurf.noris.de wrote: (a) please tell us which feature is only available with upstart. Please don't. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/eb6faad6-ea5a-4c2a-84c1-63b1da445...@debian.org
Re: Call to fork
Quoting John Paul Adrian Glaubitz (glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de): On 02/11/2014 04:18 PM, Serge Hallyn wrote: FWIW, disagree - I rarely set up a machine (little laptop or server or container) where I don't need to do one thing or another custom at boot. Throttle back cpus to prevent overheating, register dynamic dns, whatever. All of that is possible or even easier with systemd. I don't see your point. I was arguing against the idea that users might not care what init system they are on. -serge -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140215000958.GG30960@sergelap
Re: Call to fork
Hi, On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 01:29:47AM +, Sam Hartman wrote: In all seriousness. Forking, or creating a Debian downstream because you'd like a different boot approach sounds like exactly the sort of constructive approach that will help you solve your problems and get an operating system you're happy with. For me there is a lot more reason to fork: - Dropping Architectures - Gnome3 Bullshit - systemd Debian is not as useful as it was a couple years back. I started with debian because of m68k and later contributed the first mips and mipsel packages and hosted the first buildds for mips and mipsel. Debian has lost me since - The discussion about dropping and factual dropping of architectures - the Gnome3 stuff which is/was far from production quality (e.g. #698340, #698781), brokeness in debian installer (#712879) and now the systemd stuff. systemd hurts my minimalistic approach and beeing non portable is an absolute show stopper for me. Stuff which used to work gets broken and nobody cares. Probably i am an oldtimer and should switch to Windows or something (Which i never used). For me Debian over the last 5 years diverted far away from what i saw as my Desktop and Server OS. People in my surrounding switch to Mint, Ubuntu and whatever and i have no arguments to get them back because i also fight on a daily basis. So Debian - You lost me Just some feelings about my 15+ Year involvement with Debian. Flo PS: I dont think a fork would really work out but if some people would listen to the noise the systemd issue makes. IMHO its not about systemd per se. The past decisions about architectures and now systemd splits off some parts of our userbase. For me Debian has long lost the Universal in Universal Operating System. -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Call to fork
Le mardi, 11 février 2014, 11.12:24 Florian Lohoff a écrit : Debian is not as useful as it was a couple years back. I started with debian because of m68k and later contributed the first mips and mipsel packages and hosted the first buildds for mips and mipsel. Cool, thanks! Debian has lost me since - The discussion about dropping and factual dropping of architectures - the Gnome3 stuff which is/was far from production quality (e.g. #698340, #698781), brokeness in debian installer (#712879) and now the systemd stuff. Stuff which used to work gets broken and nobody cares. I'd rather say that it's because _you_ don't care enough. You know, we don't drop architectures because it's cool or because it makes any of us happy, only because there's globally not enough manpower to make them sustainable on sufficiently long terms, as well as releasable as part of our stable releases. More architectures would certainly be in jessie if there were enough people standing behind each port, making sure that the latest gcc works, that the kernels don't suddenly segfault or panic, etc etc. The same goes for Gnome3: some things could get fixed given enough involvement. Some upstream choices will probably not be reverted, but could otherwise be implemented differently. The MATE Desktop Environment is making its way into Debian, because enough people wanting that to happen, jumped in the boat and made sure it would. Wishing that things should happen doesn't make them become reality; it needs real work from people. You know, we're all volunteers here, why don't you join us and fix (or help fix) the things that are broken for you? Cheers, OdyX signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Call to fork
Thanks for sharing this. So, you're frustrated and very disappointed because Ddebian, something you cared about deeply has drifted so far away from what you want that you can no longer support it? I hope that if you decide to fork, you succeed in creating something that meets your needs. I hope that where appropriate we (both the Debian community and the broader FLOSS community) can work together where appropriate. Again, thanks for being open and sharing how this is affecting you. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/01442145887a-984e7e4a-29b0-4e71-8a2a-53a8f44c45b9-000...@email.amazonses.com
Re: Call to fork
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 09:06:46AM -0500, Sam Hartman wrote: Thanks for sharing this. So, you're frustrated and very disappointed because Ddebian, something you cared about deeply has drifted so far away from what you want that you can no longer support it? I hope that if you decide to fork, you succeed in creating something that meets your needs. I hope that where appropriate we (both the Debian community and the broader FLOSS community) can work together where appropriate. Again, thanks for being open and sharing how this is affecting you. I think i made my point that forking will not help the issue. I am telling you that by all the technical discussions which of the systems is superior over the other you forget about your users. My estimation is that 99% of the users dont care - sysvinit is sufficient and works. 0.5% think they need this little tiny bit of feature which only upstart can give them, 0.5% think they need a feature only systemd can give them. By following either of the 0.5% majority you piss off 50% because their beloved sysvinit which has been doing what it should for decades is gone. And i think i made the point that the voice who said fork debian is just telling you in their way that Debian has lost another supporter. Debian - The Universal operating system whose priority are their users? The systemd issue has gone out of proportion by far - Its a technical issue which is getting debated over a lot. But i think the systemd proponents have made a much broader issue from it which is now about trust, choice, and taste. You cant win here. Flo PS: I talking about Debian as you because i dont feel beeing part of Debian anymore. -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Call to fork
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 03:39:49PM +0100, Florian Lohoff wrote: I am telling you that by all the technical discussions which of the systems is superior over the other you forget about your users. Our users shouldn't care what init system we use. It's an implementation -- and purely technical -- detail of the OS. My estimation is that 99% of the users dont care - sysvinit is sufficient and works. You're right they don't care, but I don't think it's sufficient or that it works as a long-term solution. Bringing in a correct / modern init system is vital. Not just for the speedup at startup (which, for the record, matters a lot to users, which sysvinit can't quite manage, also, systemd is only fast because it's correct, not because it was designed to be fast) 0.5% think they need this little tiny bit of feature which only upstart can give them, 0.5% think they need a feature only systemd can give them. By following either of the 0.5% majority you piss off 50% because their beloved sysvinit which has been doing what it should for decades is gone. These numbers seem off to me. Can I see the poll that was conducted? And i think i made the point that the voice who said fork debian is just telling you in their way that Debian has lost another supporter. We've managed when we've lost users over other technical decisions, but they've been worth it in the past, and we net gain users due to the technical win in the core of the OS. Debian - The Universal operating system whose priority are their users? I don't understand the question. The systemd issue has gone out of proportion by far - Its a technical issue which is getting debated over a lot. Technically, it's a no-contest between sysvinit and systemd. As for systemd vs upstart vs openrc, that's open to debate. Each of those init systems outclass sysvinit straight. But i think the systemd proponents have made a much broader issue from it which is now about trust, choice, and taste. You cant win here. If you don't trust Debian, don't use it. If you don't like the choice, change it. If you don't like the taste, add salt. Flo PS: I talking about Debian as you because i dont feel beeing part of Debian anymore. -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de Cheers, Paul -- .''`. Paul Tagliamonte paul...@debian.org | Proud Debian Developer : :' : 4096R / 8F04 9AD8 2C92 066C 7352 D28A 7B58 5B30 807C 2A87 `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~paultag `- http://people.debian.org/~paultag/conduct-statement.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Call to fork
Our users shouldn't care what init system we use. It's an implementation -- and purely technical -- detail of the OS. Sorry to interfere with your discussion, but it really sounds like some kind of proprietary software idea :) I'm sure a big percent of GNU/Linux (and especially Debian GNU/Linux) users like to know and understand what's going under the hood. Debian users are certainly not average PC users. :) -- With best regards, Vitaliy Filippov -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/14fceb839262a279e8d3b6cfa9d46...@yourcmc.ru
Re: Call to fork
On 11/02/2014 15:39, Florian Lohoff wrote: On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 09:06:46AM -0500, Sam Hartman wrote: Thanks for sharing this. So, you're frustrated and very disappointed because Ddebian, something you cared about deeply has drifted so far away from what you want that you can no longer support it? I hope that if you decide to fork, you succeed in creating something that meets your needs. I hope that where appropriate we (both the Debian community and the broader FLOSS community) can work together where appropriate. Again, thanks for being open and sharing how this is affecting you. I think i made my point that forking will not help the issue. I am telling you that by all the technical discussions which of the systems is superior over the other you forget about your users. My estimation is that 99% of the users dont care - sysvinit is ^^ sufficient and works. 0.5% think they need this little tiny bit of feature which only upstart can give them, 0.5% think they need a feature only systemd can give them. By following either of the 0.5% majority you piss off 50% because their beloved sysvinit which has been doing ^^ They don't care but sysvinit is beloved to them? Oximoron alert! federico -- Federico Di Gregorio federico.digrego...@dndg.it Di Nunzio Di Gregorio srl http://dndg.it The reverse side also has a reverse side. -- Japanese proverb signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Call to fork
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 07:02:19PM +0400, vita...@yourcmc.ru wrote: Our users shouldn't care what init system we use. It's an implementation -- and purely technical -- detail of the OS. Sorry to interfere with your discussion, but it really sounds like some kind of proprietary software idea :) How so? systemd is free software and it complies with the DFSG. People are *able* to change it, we're only discussing defaults. I'm sure a big percent of GNU/Linux (and especially Debian GNU/Linux) users like to know and understand what's going under the hood. Debian users are certainly not average PC users. :) Yeah, we're only discussing defaults - users can still change things (which I mention at the end of my email) -- With best regards, Vitaliy Filippov Cheers, Paul -- .''`. Paul Tagliamonte paul...@debian.org | Proud Debian Developer : :' : 4096R / 8F04 9AD8 2C92 066C 7352 D28A 7B58 5B30 807C 2A87 `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~paultag `- http://people.debian.org/~paultag/conduct-statement.txt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Call to fork
On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 09:18:48AM -0600, Serge Hallyn wrote: FWIW, disagree - I rarely set up a machine (little laptop or server or container) where I don't need to do one thing or another custom at boot. Throttle back cpus to prevent overheating, register dynamic dns, whatever. You're hardly an average user (and I do mean this fondly) :) Cheers, Paul -- :wq signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Call to fork
Quoting Paul Tagliamonte (paul...@debian.org): On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 03:39:49PM +0100, Florian Lohoff wrote: I am telling you that by all the technical discussions which of the systems is superior over the other you forget about your users. Our users shouldn't care what init system we use. It's an implementation -- and purely technical -- detail of the OS. FWIW, disagree - I rarely set up a machine (little laptop or server or container) where I don't need to do one thing or another custom at boot. Throttle back cpus to prevent overheating, register dynamic dns, whatever. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20140211151848.GB5025@sergelap
Re: Call to fork
Hi, Florian Lohoff: My estimation is that 99% of the users dont care - sysvinit is sufficient and works. 0.5% think they need this little tiny bit of feature which only upstart can give them, 0.5% think they need a feature only systemd can give them. (a) please tell us which feature is only available with upstart. (b) if those 99% don't care, then they'll be equally happy with systemd. (c) I for one don't just think I need a couple of systemd features. For instance, a daemon which fails to start under sysvinit will not even prevent the services which depend on it from starting up. How terminally stupid is that? We've lived with the faults of sysvinit long enough. I can't help but think that some people have grown so accustomed to all these niggly little (or not so little) problems that they feel lost without them... -- -- Matthias Urlichs signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Call to fork
previously on this list Matthias Urlichs contributed: For instance, a daemon which fails to start under sysvinit will not even prevent the services which depend on it from starting up. How terminally stupid is that? Perhaps you should rethink that whilst considering the complexities. I disagree and could easily argue doing so is stupid. I have also done just that for services not designed to work together within rc.local. -- ___ 'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface' (Doug McIlroy) In Other Words - Don't design like polkit or systemd ___ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/345050.99715...@smtp150.mail.ir2.yahoo.com
Re: Call to fork
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 02/11/2014 04:21 PM, Paul Tagliamonte wrote: You're hardly an average user (and I do mean this fondly) :) Reminds me of this, bro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmPKDeo9Oow#t=3251 Do you see how many people are using alternative window managers here? Adrian - -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Icedove - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJS+nYtAAoJEHQmOzf1tfkT/d4QALLn5vSTncP/L3D8ShuCLNty VH7AGhNlL6wlGPWLZnA+4xu7w4lLm7HaCt91WkBsV31T0jwiGT4cinQExPFv85xa 7Y31XlCw1Bdjjt/I5Qjvk+V8ZbCaKOPvuA6Qlf4mPkmcocVAoO68DQt+UHaYnaF4 9k3fQ4AK7eKbjYGS/uGeHrVJ2bN8qlswWxZq1lcU+40B3xAAI8mwUz5iBek/+Riw v65Pwi1YtGNfXCvruRY/V1FLM6rBXrhlf2QxUBNpVZ82IOXXA6iLw9TaSAhu17Zn qk3ha51GWKYhc+kGY7pFd1IoceIqZlo/Cf4coVAH4Ps6hiVCQYeTW6gxOKv2HfAR s7JpLOJ/qlKctKCnuZPvNwpskZNnxiUWPHKJzw+wdbahc6iOCu/wMKyBi2T5BppL PBKB4Qi+OxiEO5jOeI2ax7kBn5CAMSCOy58tH0wRx53bv9RbVNbQ900qzr71NcIw g59IdwHne/Cj7s5XhUxUjPeyl+pHKPkTzQoMt/NJHfYLefs2dciIJ7POH6k3KIo2 eF1OqEnVm0N7vO96a706OVkJYCATE2P/yKbGCYEWy94ArSik1z4AOxEkQ9s0gD4F aIu02B9AIW1NMJIAT6hFZsmbvKH0g8TeozPJyqOVKfI+s7Krme53jkJvyJnBxq16 vLS/ZD7xbwkMeLbSG1c6 =aTpc -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fa762d.4080...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Call to fork
On 02/11/2014 04:18 PM, Serge Hallyn wrote: FWIW, disagree - I rarely set up a machine (little laptop or server or container) where I don't need to do one thing or another custom at boot. Throttle back cpus to prevent overheating, register dynamic dns, whatever. All of that is possible or even easier with systemd. I don't see your point. Adrian -- .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/52fa76bd.2070...@physik.fu-berlin.de
Re: Call to fork
debianfan == debianfan debian...@hushmail.com writes: debianfanI would like to propose forking Debian if the ctte debianfan committee selects systemd It's with great hesitation that I jump in here, and I know what I'm doing is wrong. I hope I've earned enough credibility over the years in the project to make a constructive but off-topic comment. In all seriousness. Forking, or creating a Debian downstream because you'd like a different boot approach sounds like exactly the sort of constructive approach that will help you solve your problems and get an operating system you're happy with. Many people have created Debian derivatives. Debian is great for that sort of thing. We even work with people who create Debian derivatives on a regular basis. In this instance I'm quite positive that if interesting technical work is done on such a fork several Debian developers will be delighted to discuss what parts of it can be merged back in. Deriving from Debian is a great way to provide a custom experience. If you find that our boot strategy doesn't work for you and you cannot make the improvements you wish within Debian, then such a fork would be a great way to constructively help us all out. however, the Debian TC list is not the right place to plan or ask about how to create a Debian derivative. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/01441e907282-e61a0b67-b5fd-48ba-b995-1eb813e7772c-000...@email.amazonses.com
Re: Call to fork
Excerpts from Sam Hartman's message of 2014-02-10 17:29:47 -0800: debianfan == debianfan debian...@hushmail.com writes: debianfanI would like to propose forking Debian if the ctte debianfan committee selects systemd It's with great hesitation that I jump in here, and I know what I'm doing is wrong. I hope I've earned enough credibility over the years in the project to make a constructive but off-topic comment. In all seriousness. Forking, or creating a Debian downstream because you'd like a different boot approach sounds like exactly the sort of constructive approach that will help you solve your problems and get an operating system you're happy with. Many people have created Debian derivatives. Debian is great for that sort of thing. We even work with people who create Debian derivatives on a regular basis. In this instance I'm quite positive that if interesting technical work is done on such a fork several Debian developers will be delighted to discuss what parts of it can be merged back in. Deriving from Debian is a great way to provide a custom experience. If you find that our boot strategy doesn't work for you and you cannot make the improvements you wish within Debian, then such a fork would be a great way to constructively help us all out. however, the Debian TC list is not the right place to plan or ask about how to create a Debian derivative. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be a fork, or even another distro. Could just be a pure blend: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianPureBlends As long as maintainers in Debian accept upstart / openrc / sysvinit / etc. scripts from the maintainers of the not-systemd blend.. we can all live in harmony. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1392090909-sup-3...@fewbar.com
