Re: patents on Frets on Fire, Pydance, StepMania and such games
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008, Joe Smith wrote: > That is not sheet music, but more of a raw storage of notes, > timings, and durations (not too unlike a midi file). What else is sheet music but a storage form of notes, timings and durations? > But the key here is that this specifies that the interface must have > two different types of controls. One that must be pressed with the > correct timing (the strum bar on a Guitar Hero controler) as well as > selection buttons that need not be pushed with exact timing, but > need only be pushed in the right combination when the timing control > is pushed. So you have an instrument which has to preselect a note, and another which much be pressed with exact timing. Most wind instruments satisfy that requirement. [Not that any of this really matters, but I'd be rather surprised if someone who wanted to couldn't kill this off with prior art based on the bit I've seen.] Don Armstrong -- Where I sleep at night, is this important compared to what I read during the day? What do you think defines me? Where I slept or what I did all day? -- Thomas Van Orden of Van Orden v. Perry http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: patents on Frets on Fire, Pydance, StepMania and such games
Miriam Ruiz dijo [Fri, Jan 18, 2008 at 11:22:58AM +0100]: > Tom "spot" Callaway, from Red Hat, announced [1] that Fedora won't be > including any game of the kind of Frets on Fire, Stepmania, pydance, > digiband, or anything of the kind of DDR or Guitar Hero, due to patent > concerns [2]. > > """ > Due to patent concerns, we won't be able to include any games in Fedora > which meet the following criteria: > > A game where "targets" move across the screen to a predetermined point > or line, where the player hits a button/key/mouse click as the target(s) > crosses that point or line, and gets points. > """ > > Any thoughts on that? Yup. It sounds very much like Space Invaders to me. Space Invaders was written in 1978 [1], so any patents on it must have already expired. Or it qualifies as prior art. Greetings, [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_invaders -- Gunnar Wolf - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244 PGP key 1024D/8BB527AF 2001-10-23 Fingerprint: 0C79 D2D1 2C4E 9CE4 5973 F800 D80E F35A 8BB5 27AF -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: patents on Frets on Fire, Pydance, StepMania and such games
"Don Armstrong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, 18 Jan 2008, John Halton wrote: 1. A game system comprising: an input apparatus which is manipulated by a player; performance data memory device which stores performance data stipulating a series of manipulations of said input apparatus arranged in correspondence with a predetermined musical piece; Interesting that they've managed to patent sheet music stored in a computer. That is not sheet music, but more of a raw storage of notes, timings, and durations (not too unlike a midi file). Further that is not an independent claim, the patent *only* protects a *game system* that contains *all* these components. manipulation guide device which specifies the series of manipulations of said input apparatus arranged in correspondence with said musical piece to the player based on said performance data; That does cover any sheet-music or sheetmusic-like interface that displays the notes stored above. said performance data comprising information which specifies timings of manipulations relating to at least one timing manipulation member provided on said input apparatus, and information which specifies at least one selection manipulation member to be manipulated in correspondence with the manipulation of said timing manipulation member from a plurality of selection manipulation members provided on said input apparatus; But the key here is that this specifies that the interface must have two different types of controls. One that must be pressed with the correct timing (the strum bar on a Guitar Hero controler) as well as selection buttons that need not be pushed with exact timing, but need only be pushed in the right combination when the timing control is pushed. Thus this patent very much is specific to Guitar-hero like games, and does not cover generic "dance" games, which have only timing buttons, and no selection buttons. Futher it is unclear to me that a distributer would be infringing the patentent anyway, as they would be providing only a portion of the game system claimed, but not the input device. (Now if the person was distributing a cd containing frets-on-fire along with a Guitar-hero style controler, that would be covered by this claim) And then continue to even more precisely define digital sheet music. Oh well; it's not like patent examiners are actually capable of understanding the patents which they are examining. Don Armstrong -- A Democracy lead by politicians and political parties, fails. http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: patents on Frets on Fire, Pydance, StepMania and such games
Miriam Ruiz wrote: > A game where "targets" move across the screen to a predetermined point > or line, where the player hits a button/key/mouse click as the target(s) > crosses that point or line, and gets points. > Any thoughts on that? Nice description of space invaders. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: patents on Frets on Fire, Pydance, StepMania and such games
On Fri, 18 Jan 2008, John Halton wrote: > 1. A game system comprising: > > an input apparatus which is manipulated by a player; > > performance data memory device which stores performance data > stipulating a series of manipulations of said input apparatus arranged > in correspondence with a predetermined musical piece; Interesting that they've managed to patent sheet music stored in a computer. > manipulation guide device which specifies the series of manipulations > of said input apparatus arranged in correspondence with said musical > piece to the player based on said performance data; > > said performance data comprising information which specifies timings > of manipulations relating to at least one timing manipulation member > provided on said input apparatus, and information which specifies at > least one selection manipulation member to be manipulated in > correspondence with the manipulation of said timing manipulation > member from a plurality of selection manipulation members provided on > said input apparatus; And then continue to even more precisely define digital sheet music. Oh well; it's not like patent examiners are actually capable of understanding the patents which they are examining. Don Armstrong -- A Democracy lead by politicians and political parties, fails. http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: TrueCrypt License 2.3
Le mercredi 16 janvier 2008 à 14:55 +, MJ Ray a écrit : > > We have allowed exactly the same conditions by using software with > > trademarked names. > > Where? The naming rights asserted above seem much broader than what a > trademark allows. Trademarks have many limitations. If we have named Firefux the modified version of Firefox, I doubt the Mozilla foundation would have let that pass. > > In fact, upstream is wrong for putting such > > restrictions in the license itself instead of the trademark policy, but > > the net effect is exactly the same as that of the Firefox trademark. > > Didn't we have to change the name to avoid the Firefox trademark+copyright > combo-knockout? Indeed, but not all upstreams have such stupid trademark licensing schemes. See Apache for a good example. > > > > 1. You may not use, modify, reproduce, derive from, (re)distribute, or > > > > sublicense This Product, or portion(s) thereof, except as expressly > > > > provided > > > > under this License. [...] > > > This is non-free, as explained by Ken Arromdee in > > > http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2008/01/msg00132.html > > > > Please get out of your US-centric world. > > Does it matter whether it is non-free only for France or only for the > US? Doesn't that mere difference make it fail DFSG 5? I don’t think so. The fact that it doesn’t grant some of the rights that are usually applicable in the US but not somewhere else doesn’t make the license in itself non-free. It has been argued several times that DFSG#5 is here to make the software free for everyone. If it is more free for some groups of persons than for others, good for them. For a similar example, the GPL with an additional permission for snowboarders to integrate the software in their proprietary developments would not fail the test. > I've not studied the liability debate here, but none of the above responses > seem to have merit. They're also unnecessarily you-you-you. Did Francesco > Poli run over Josselin Mouette's cat? Huh? Who’s trying to make things personal? -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: patents on Frets on Fire, Pydance, StepMania and such games
On Fri, 2008-01-18 at 12:06 +, John Halton wrote: > On Jan 18, 2008 10:22 AM, Miriam Ruiz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Tom "spot" Callaway, from Red Hat, announced [1] that Fedora won't be > > including any game of the kind of Frets on Fire, Stepmania, pydance, > > digiband, or anything of the kind of DDR or Guitar Hero, due to patent > > concerns [2]. > > > > I haven't been able to find out whether there are any equivalent > patents outside the US, so it may be this is a US-only (or perhaps > Japan also) patent. What is Debian's policy as regards software that > is encumbered by patents in one jurisdiction but not others? I expect many places with Free Trade Agreements with the USA will 'inherit' the patent from the US. Australia and New Zealand fall in this catagory i think. kk > > John > > (TINLA) > > -- Karl Goetz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Debian / Ubuntu / gNewSense -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: patents on Frets on Fire, Pydance, StepMania and such games
On Jan 18, 2008 12:20 PM, Arnoud Engelfriet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > There is a European patent EP1064974B1 and a Japanese application > JP2001009152. Thanks. > You can locate family members by going to > http://ep.espacenet.com/numberSearch?locale=en_EP > entering one member's number (US6347998 in this case). Then > click on the result to get the details. On the right there's > the "Also published as". Indeed. Unfortunately my employer's web-filtering software has blown a gasket and temporarily blocked all access to that site (because the URLs include the string ".exe"), so I couldn't access it to check the Konami patent. John -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: patents on Frets on Fire, Pydance, StepMania and such games
John Halton wrote: > I haven't been able to find out whether there are any equivalent > patents outside the US, so it may be this is a US-only (or perhaps > Japan also) patent. What is Debian's policy as regards software that > is encumbered by patents in one jurisdiction but not others? There is a European patent EP1064974B1 and a Japanese application JP2001009152. You can locate family members by going to http://ep.espacenet.com/numberSearch?locale=en_EP entering one member's number (US6347998 in this case). Then click on the result to get the details. On the right there's the "Also published as". Arnoud -- Arnoud Engelfriet, Dutch & European patent attorney - Speaking only for myself Patents, copyright and IPR explained for techies: http://www.iusmentis.com/ Arnoud blogt nu ook: http://blog.iusmentis.com/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: patents on Frets on Fire, Pydance, StepMania and such games
On Jan 18, 2008 10:22 AM, Miriam Ruiz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Tom "spot" Callaway, from Red Hat, announced [1] that Fedora won't be > including any game of the kind of Frets on Fire, Stepmania, pydance, > digiband, or anything of the kind of DDR or Guitar Hero, due to patent > concerns [2]. > > """ > Due to patent concerns, we won't be able to include any games in Fedora > which meet the following criteria: > > A game where "targets" move across the screen to a predetermined point > or line, where the player hits a button/key/mouse click as the target(s) > crosses that point or line, and gets points. >From the Fedora mailing list thread, it looks like this is referring to US patent 6347998 (see http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6347998.html), held by Konami. The main claim reads as follows (see http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6347998-fulltext.html for all claims): -- 1. A game system comprising: an input apparatus which is manipulated by a player; performance data memory device which stores performance data stipulating a series of manipulations of said input apparatus arranged in correspondence with a predetermined musical piece; manipulation guide device which specifies the series of manipulations of said input apparatus arranged in correspondence with said musical piece to the player based on said performance data; said performance data comprising information which specifies timings of manipulations relating to at least one timing manipulation member provided on said input apparatus, and information which specifies at least one selection manipulation member to be manipulated in correspondence with the manipulation of said timing manipulation member from a plurality of selection manipulation members provided on said input apparatus; - The crucial point in all that gobbledigook is the reference to a "musical piece". Ditto the other claims in the patent. So even if this patent is valid, it isn't as broad as simply "clicking a button when a target crosses the line". Though I agree that software patents are evil and that this completely sucks, it isn't quite as bad as the Fedora discussion makes out (rough paraphrase: "They just banned Pong!" ;-) ). Plus Fedora's policy on these issues is driven by Red Hat, which (as a listed corporation) has to take a very conservative line on patent infringement. I haven't been able to find out whether there are any equivalent patents outside the US, so it may be this is a US-only (or perhaps Japan also) patent. What is Debian's policy as regards software that is encumbered by patents in one jurisdiction but not others? John (TINLA) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: patents on Frets on Fire, Pydance, StepMania and such games
"Miriam Ruiz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Any thoughts on that? Software patents continue to chill adoption of innovations. Fight the corresponding legislation at every opportunity. -- \ "When I was little, my grandfather used to make me stand in a | `\ closet for five minutes without moving. He said it was elevator | _o__) practice." -- Steven Wright | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
patents on Frets on Fire, Pydance, StepMania and such games
Tom "spot" Callaway, from Red Hat, announced [1] that Fedora won't be including any game of the kind of Frets on Fire, Stepmania, pydance, digiband, or anything of the kind of DDR or Guitar Hero, due to patent concerns [2]. """ Due to patent concerns, we won't be able to include any games in Fedora which meet the following criteria: A game where "targets" move across the screen to a predetermined point or line, where the player hits a button/key/mouse click as the target(s) crosses that point or line, and gets points. """ Any thoughts on that? Greetings, Miry [1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-games-list/2008-January/msg00022.html [2] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-games-list/2008-January/msg00041.html [3] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-games-list/2008-January/msg00033.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
