Re: bits from the NM process: advocacy, no more AM reports, AMs needed
On 05/30/2012 07:01 AM, Jakub Wilk wrote: AFAICS, it is using jQuery and jQuery TableSorter, which are both free software. Admittedly, it is using a minified version of the libraries ... which is violation of their license. It's not. In fact, minified versions are shipped by the vendor directly. -- Jose Luis Rivas - GPG: 0x7C4DF50D / 0xCACAB118 The Debian Project Developer -- http://ghostbar.ath.cx Barquisimeto, Venezuela signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: bits from the NM process: advocacy, no more AM reports, AMs needed
On 30 May 2012 23:33, Russ Allbery r...@debian.org wrote: In this context, it's a common idiom in American English (at least in my and British English. dialect; idioms can be very regional). It does a good job of conveying the slow seeping of data through a complex system. :) Indeed. Regards Jeff -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-newmaint-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CACg2wbyYR6-9ytRuQCm7bXfXcCFm_V4_hcisoy=p+ehyzjo...@mail.gmail.com
Re: bits from the NM process: advocacy, no more AM reports, AMs needed
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 05:57:52PM +0200, Mehdi Dogguy wrote: In fact, for some reason, jQuery's maintainer seems to prefer the former one over the latter. (See commit 77c67aa92705d6dd454053716cfefa2faab7b3aa in git://anonscm.debian.org/pkg-javascript/jquery.git). On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 05:15:58PM -0430, Jose Luis Rivas wrote: According to jQuery's Makefile, is generated with uglify.js which is released with the MIT license and shipped along with jQuery's source-code that anyone can Excellent, thank you both for the useful information. I've added to the todo list that minified javascripts should be compiled at deploy time instead of kept in git. I won't be doing it right away. It turns out that my last d-d-a announcement has been remarkably efficient in growing the waiting-for-FD-and-DAM queue :) \o/ Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 4096R/E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini enr...@enricozini.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: bits from the NM process: advocacy, no more AM reports, AMs needed
On 05/29/2012 11:45 PM, Enrico Zini wrote: if someone could show me what tools are available that work and do an acceptable job. How about: apt-get install libjs-jquery At least you know it's fully free, and that it comes with security update support... Cheers, Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-newmaint-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4fc60f54.1050...@debian.org
Re: bits from the NM process: advocacy, no more AM reports, AMs needed
On 05/30/2012 01:12 AM, Enrico Zini wrote: It may take 20 minutes or so for the new password to percolate Is this the Italian inside you, who pushes to use the word percolate ? :) First time I read it in such context... I'd like sugar and milk with my password please! :P Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-newmaint-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4fc61196.50...@debian.org
Re: bits from the NM process: advocacy, no more AM reports, AMs needed
Thomas Goirand z...@debian.org writes: On 05/30/2012 01:12 AM, Enrico Zini wrote: It may take 20 minutes or so for the new password to percolate Is this the Italian inside you, who pushes to use the word percolate ? :) First time I read it in such context... In this context, it's a common idiom in American English (at least in my dialect; idioms can be very regional). It does a good job of conveying the slow seeping of data through a complex system. :) -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-newmaint-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87396hcq1s@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: bits from the NM process: advocacy, no more AM reports, AMs needed
Enrico Zini dixit: [1] https://nm.debian.org/public/findperson/ No, the form is missing the submit button, this doesn’t work. [2] The DD needs to have their webpassword set, which every DD can do at https://db.debian.org/login.html This doesn’t work either, I can log into db.d.o but not here, sso.d.o says: 「Access denied. The username / password combination you entered is invalid. Please try again.」 bye, //mirabilos -- 13:37⎜«Natureshadow» Deep inside, I hate mirabilos. I mean, he's a good guy. But he's always right! In every fsckin' situation, he's right. Even with his deeply perverted taste in software and borked ambition towards broken OSes - in the end, he's damn right about it :(! […] works in mksh -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-newmaint-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pine.bsm.4.64l.1205291220270.13...@herc.mirbsd.org
Re: bits from the NM process: advocacy, no more AM reports, AMs needed
On 29/05/12 14:21, Thorsten Glaser wrote: Enrico Zini dixit: [1] https://nm.debian.org/public/findperson/ No, the form is missing the submit button, this doesn’t work. Did you enable JavaScript ? Did you try to hit enter? [2] The DD needs to have their webpassword set, which every DD can do at https://db.debian.org/login.html This doesn’t work either, I can log into db.d.o but not here, sso.d.o says: 「Access denied. The username / password combination you entered is invalid. Please try again.」 You must set your sso password through the db.debian.org interface. Regards, -- Mehdi Dogguy مهدي الدڤي http://dogguy.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-newmaint-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4fc4c261.4010...@dogguy.org
Re: bits from the NM process: advocacy, no more AM reports, AMs needed
* Enrico Zini enr...@enricozini.org, 2012-05-29, 16:57: Why does it need JavaScript? Because searching for people for whom you are unsure of the spelling of the name works much better when you get results as you type. The form is also designed to be used by Front Desk to enter new people in the database: you start typing the data for the person, and as you fill in the form you can notice if the person already exists. If there are no results and you are a member of FD, a 'Create user' button appears. I find this is the kind of use case where AJAX really makes the interaction much more efficient. It's infinitely less efficient for people who are not okay with running untrusted, often non-free (or even undistributable) code on their machines. -- Jakub Wilk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-newmaint-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120529151011.ga3...@jwilk.net
Re: bits from the NM process: advocacy, no more AM reports, AMs needed
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 05:10:11PM +0200, Jakub Wilk wrote: It's infinitely less efficient for people who are not okay with running untrusted, often non-free (or even undistributable) code on their machines. Fantastic. Then you can follow the all people link on the same page. Or, even better, please send a patch for an alternate version of the page, or any other page you feel like being patronising about. The git of the code is linked at the bottom of each page in the site. Ciao, Enrico who believes he's doing enough work on it as it is. -- GPG key: 4096R/E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini enr...@enricozini.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: bits from the NM process: advocacy, no more AM reports, AMs needed
On 29/05/12 17:10, Jakub Wilk wrote: It's infinitely less efficient for people who are not okay with running untrusted, often non-free (or even undistributable) code on their machines. I'm sorry but where do you see non-free code? AFAICS, it is using jQuery and jQuery TableSorter, which are both free software. Admittedly, it is using a minified version of the libraries but I still would not qualify that by non-free. The rest of the JS code is inlined in the html page and I beleive is written by Enrico himself. Besides, as a DD, you may as well inspect the running code behind the website by connecting to nm.debian.org. You'll be able to check what the code is really doing. So I don't see any argument when you say untrusted code. Regards, -- Mehdi Dogguy مهدي الدڤي http://dogguy.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-newmaint-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4fc4ec8b.5010...@dogguy.org
Re: bits from the NM process: advocacy, no more AM reports, AMs needed
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 05:34:35PM +0200, Mehdi Dogguy wrote: software. Admittedly, it is using a minified version of the libraries but I still would not qualify that by non-free. The rest of the JS Good point about the minified JS. I'm using the minified versions that are shipped with JQuery sources, but I don't know how they have been generated. I wouldn't object to having only the original javascript library sources in nm.d.o's git and then building the minified versions at deploy time with tools available in Debian, if someone could show me what tools are available that work and do an acceptable job. Ciao, Enrico -- GPG key: 4096R/E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini enr...@enricozini.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: bits from the NM process: advocacy, no more AM reports, AMs needed
On 29/05/12 17:45, Enrico Zini wrote: I wouldn't object to having only the original javascript library sources in nm.d.o's git and then building the minified versions at deploy time with tools available in Debian, if someone could show me what tools are available that work and do an acceptable job. Quite easy, you can use node-uglify or yui-compressor. I beleive there are others in Debian's archive. In fact, for some reason, jQuery's maintainer seems to prefer the former one over the latter. (See commit 77c67aa92705d6dd454053716cfefa2faab7b3aa in git://anonscm.debian.org/pkg-javascript/jquery.git). Cheers. -- Mehdi Dogguy مهدي الدڤي http://dogguy.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-newmaint-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4fc4f200.9010...@dogguy.org
Re: bits from the NM process: advocacy, no more AM reports, AMs needed
Mehdi Dogguy dixit: On 29/05/12 14:21, Thorsten Glaser wrote: Enrico Zini dixit: [1] https://nm.debian.org/public/findperson/ No, the form is missing the submit button, this doesn’t work. Did you enable JavaScript ? Did you try to hit enter? I tried to hit Enter, yes. I must *strongly* protest the creation of new webpages that are not accessible, and requiring ECMAscript is preventing all Lynx users from accessing it. That being said, I even tried M*zilla Firef*x 15 (nightly build), to no avail. [2] The DD needs to have their webpassword set, which every DD can do at https://db.debian.org/login.html This doesn’t work either, I can log into db.d.o but not here, sso.d.o says: 「Access denied. The username / password combination you entered is invalid. Please try again.」 You must set your sso password through the db.debian.org interface. Ah, that’s new. The announcement read as if the same password as we use to log into db.d.o was used here. Setting it doesn’t allow me to log into SSO either, though. (And yes, with a GUI browser, and ECMAscript enabled.) bye, //mirabilos -- 13:37⎜«Natureshadow» Deep inside, I hate mirabilos. I mean, he's a good guy. But he's always right! In every fsckin' situation, he's right. Even with his deeply perverted taste in software and borked ambition towards broken OSes - in the end, he's damn right about it :(! […] works in mksh -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-newmaint-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pine.bsm.4.64l.1205291605120.30...@herc.mirbsd.org
Re: bits from the NM process: advocacy, no more AM reports, AMs needed
On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 04:08:28PM +, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
I must *strongly* protest the creation of new webpages that are not
accessible, and requiring ECMAscript is preventing all Lynx users from
accessing it.
Actually, no, I think you must not, or at the very least not *strongly*.
Simply because you're not doing the work yourself. I think you should
rather first of all say thanks for the work done. And then report a bug
against nm.debian.org stating that it would be nice/better if the site
would also work for a different use case than those it has been written
for (i.e. FrontDesk needs, according to Enrico's mail). Adding a patch
would be nice too. Especially, if you consider that all the information
we are talking about is already accessible, and has been for a while,
from a different page, as discussed elsewhere in this thread.
Don't get me wrong: I'm all for accessibility on the web, avoiding
JavaScript wherever possible, etc. But it's really rather depressing to
see a thread where quite important changes to the NM process --- like
reducing substantially, and smartly, its bureaucracy --- are neglected
in favor of complaints against the lack of accessibility in information
which are, in fact, accessible anyhow. That's really the mother of all
nitpicking.
Enrico is an old timer and surely doesn't need me to write this, but try
to put yourself in his shoes. You spent time in developing and deploying
an nm.d.o improvement which, unfortunately, it's not perfect. It's not
accessible at it should _yet_ but it is still an improvement for your
and your co-workers' work-flows. All the answers you get are it's not
accessible, yada yada. I don't think that would motivate you in
spending extra time on improving the code further. If that's true, the
net result is that it would likely _diminish_ the chances that the
accessibility issue get sorted out. Which is probably not the
achievement we are looking for.
Not to mention the new Debian members that are the reason why this list
exists. If they happen to lurk on a thread like this one, a likely take
away message they will learn is that incremental improvements are not
welcome in the Debian infrastructure (or at least not on nm.d.o). Either
it's perfect from day 0, or it's not worth sharing --- *unless* you're
ready to accept criticism for the non-ready part and zero thanks for the
ready-part.
This rant of mine (sorry!) is not about politeness for the sake of it or
dreaming of Debian as a teddy-bear-style happy family, it's plain
pragmatism: in a volunteer project how we discuss is as important as
what we discuss, because in the long run it affects our ability to
attract and retain talented contributors.
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} . o .
Maître de conférences .. http://upsilon.cc/zack .. . . o
Debian Project Leader... @zack on identi.ca ...o o o
« the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club »
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Re: bits from the NM process: advocacy, no more AM reports, AMs needed
Hi, On Dienstag, 29. Mai 2012, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: Actually, no, I think you must not, or at the very least not *strongly*. Simply because you're not doing the work yourself. I think you should rather first of all say thanks for the work done. And then report a bug against nm.debian.org stating that it would be nice/better if the site would also work for a different use case than those it has been written for (i.e. FrontDesk needs, according to Enrico's mail). Adding a patch would be nice too. Especially, if you consider that all the information we are talking about is already accessible, and has been for a while, from a different page, as discussed elsewhere in this thread. Don't get me wrong: I'm all for accessibility on the web, [...] I've deleted 4 more paragraphs very worth reading, thanks a lot for writing this up so well, Stefano! And this also reminds me to say: I think it's awesome that writing an AM report has been made so much easier! Whooohoo, thanks for that! And also for the other nice improvements! :-) As well as for providing the sources for all of this ;-p It's really amazing how smooth and well defined the NM process has become in the last few years! (It's also amazing how the myth it's difficult, tendious and mysterical is still going well...) cheers, Holger -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-newmaint-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201205292205.46331.hol...@layer-acht.org
Re: bits from the NM process: advocacy, no more AM reports, AMs needed
On 05/29/2012 11:15 AM, Enrico Zini wrote: On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 05:34:35PM +0200, Mehdi Dogguy wrote: software. Admittedly, it is using a minified version of the libraries but I still would not qualify that by non-free. The rest of the JS Good point about the minified JS. I'm using the minified versions that are shipped with JQuery sources, but I don't know how they have been generated. I wouldn't object to having only the original javascript library sources in nm.d.o's git and then building the minified versions at deploy time with tools available in Debian, if someone could show me what tools are available that work and do an acceptable job. According to jQuery's Makefile, is generated with uglify.js which is released with the MIT license and shipped along with jQuery's source-code that anyone can download at git://github.com/jquery/jquery.git . All you need to build jQuery as shipped by jQuery itself is shipped there, in the sources, so I believe is a dummy thing to do it yet again, for the same results with the same tools, and if in doubt ask Einstein how's called someone that does the very same thing, with the very same tools and expects a different result. Enrico, as a web developer that I am: _thanks_ for using JavaScript in an official webtool of Debian. Is was about time we start writing things that _work_ using all the available technologies, is called pragmatism and Debian needs bunches of it. Regards. -- Jose Luis Rivas - GPG: 0x7C4DF50D / 0xCACAB118 The Debian Project Developer -- http://ghostbar.ath.cx Barquisimeto, Venezuela signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
