safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread martin f krafft
Encrypted filesystems are hip these days, and that's good. One of
the reasons why I have not jumped on the waggon is a concern about
their safety.

When using a block cipher such as AES or similar to encode e.g.
a file of 1024 Mb, the blocks of the ciphertext are in relation to
each other. This is accomplished using methods like CBC (Cipher
Block Chaining, among others). The motivation here is to fend off
statistical (and replay) attacks.

Storage media these days are usually okay, but there have been times
when a bad block on a disk, or a corrupt byte on a flash medium have
caused trash to be returned for the block. Please correct me if I am
wrong, but with a single file spanning 1 Gb of medium, chances are
fairly high for such a bad block to happen within the file (given
that it happens at all).

If such a bad block occurs and renders a small part of the encrypted
file unreadable, wouldn't the entire partition and all its data be
effectively destroyed?

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Re: Security Support by the Security-Team

2005-06-17 Thread Florian Weimer
* Helmut Toplizer:

 I'm also interested in other opinions as I can't suggest an already
 established best-practice.

Use unstable or testing, and apply security fixes yourself.  Over
time, stable (with its historic software version) will drift
considerably from upstream, which will make security support
economically infeasible, so this is the only way that ensures you'll
have access to security fixes in a reasonable timeframe.

(This is not a Debian-specific problem, most distributors face the
same issues.)


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Re: safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread Florian Weimer
* martin f. krafft:

 Encrypted filesystems are hip these days, [...]

Are they?  I thought most of the fuzz was about encrypted block
devices.

 If such a bad block occurs and renders a small part of the encrypted
 file unreadable, wouldn't the entire partition and all its data be
 effectively destroyed?

A corrupt sector corrupts the remaining part of the block.  Block
sizes are much smaller than 1 GB because when part of a block is
changed, all the following bytes have to be rewritten (if a reasonable
the cipher mode is used).

By the way, the very fact that the block is not lost completely
indicates a major cryptographic weakness: there are no integrity
checks at all.  (The constant IV problem is another one.)  These
weaknesses don't matter in many scenarios, but it's still an
undesirable situation.


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Re: safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread martin f krafft
also sprach Florian Weimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005.06.17.0834 +0200]:
  Encrypted filesystems are hip these days, [...]
 
 Are they?  I thought most of the fuzz was about encrypted block
 devices.

That's what I mean.

  If such a bad block occurs and renders a small part of the encrypted
  file unreadable, wouldn't the entire partition and all its data be
  effectively destroyed?
 
 A corrupt sector corrupts the remaining part of the block.  Block
 sizes are much smaller than 1 GB because when part of a block is
 changed, all the following bytes have to be rewritten (if a reasonable
 the cipher mode is used).

Of course blocks are small, e.g. 64 bytes. However, doesn't CBC or
EBC make sure that every block is chained to its predecessor, making
even the very last block of a file dependent on the bits of the very
first block?

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Re: safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread Florian Weimer
* martin f. krafft:

 A corrupt sector corrupts the remaining part of the block.  Block
 sizes are much smaller than 1 GB because when part of a block is
 changed, all the following bytes have to be rewritten (if a reasonable
 the cipher mode is used).

 Of course blocks are small, e.g. 64 bytes.

These are *cipher* blocks, and they are chained only within a *block
device* block.


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Re: safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread Michael Buchholz
On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 08:46:03 +0200
martin f krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Of course blocks are small, e.g. 64 bytes. However, doesn't CBC or
 EBC make sure that every block is chained to its predecessor, making
 even the very last block of a file dependent on the bits of the very
 first block?

No.
If it would be that way, it would allways be necessary to decrypt the
whole filesystem, when you want to read the last block. Or you have to
store a decrypted version in memory...
And also, when you write any block, you have to reencrypt all the
remaining blocks.

I don't know, what kind of CPU you use, but on my system, that would be
really time consuming!!!

The loss of a single block on a harddist should be protected by using
some kind of forward error correction like the Solomon-Reed one.

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Re: safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread martin f krafft
also sprach Florian Weimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005.06.17.0848 +0200]:
 These are *cipher* blocks, and they are chained only within
 a *block device* block.

Who guarantees that? If Cipherblock CB_x depends on CB_(x-1), then
CB_last will indirectly depend on CB_first. If the data are large
enough to span multiple block device blocks, damage to the beginning
of the cipherfile makes the rest of the file unusable, no?

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Re: safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread Florian Weimer
* martin f. krafft:

 also sprach Florian Weimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005.06.17.0848 +0200]:
 These are *cipher* blocks, and they are chained only within
 a *block device* block.

 Who guarantees that? If Cipherblock CB_x depends on CB_(x-1), then
 CB_last will indirectly depend on CB_first. If the data are large
 enough to span multiple block device blocks, damage to the beginning
 of the cipherfile makes the rest of the file unusable, no?

For each device block, a constant, block-specific IV is used.  Device
blocks are not chained together.  The block device doesn't know
anything about files, anyway.


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Re: safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread Michael Buchholz
On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:03:57 +0200
martin f krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Who guarantees that? If Cipherblock CB_x depends on CB_(x-1), then
 CB_last will indirectly depend on CB_first. If the data are large
 enough to span multiple block device blocks, damage to the beginning
 of the cipherfile makes the rest of the file unusable, no?

That is the reason, why a reasonable clever programmer would not do such
a silly thing.


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Re: safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread Alexander Zangerl
On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:02:05 +0200, martin f krafft writes:
also sprach Alexander Zangerl [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005.06.17.0835 +0200]:
 no - with cbd, dud blocks effect only decryption of the block itself
 and the one directly following it.

... and that one affects the one directly following it, and that one
affects the one directly following it. 

no, this is subtly wrong. the *encrypted* block affects the decryption of the 
block following it, not the cleartext block.

one dead block spills junk all over the block+1 when decrypted, 
but the (undamaged) encrypted block+1 is used to decrypt block+2 and
so on.

So if you have a corruption
in the first block, your data are gone. If you have a corruption in
the last block, the loss is minimal.

no, see above.

details (with a nice diagram) can be found on page 220 of the 
handbook of applied crypto.
the official pdfs are here: 
URL:http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/hac/about/chap7.pdf

regards
az


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Re: safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread Alexander Zangerl
On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:15:32 +1000, Alexander Zangerl writes:
(bloody hell: can't even type anymore. weekend is calling...)

also sprach Alexander Zangerl [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005.06.17.0835 +0200]:
 no - with cbd, dud blocks effect only decryption of the block itself
 and the one directly following it.

i meant cipher block chaining. no idea how i got to cbd.

details (with a nice diagram) can be found on page 220 of the 
handbook of applied crypto.
the official pdfs are here: URL:http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/hac/about/c
hap7.pdf

page 229.

argh.
az


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Re: safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread Michael Buchholz
On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:15:32 +1000
Alexander Zangerl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 no, this is subtly wrong. the *encrypted* block affects the decryption
 of the block following it, not the cleartext block.

That's a possible, but unsecure way to do that.
This way, an attacker can try to decrypt any block x by using the
encrypted block x-1 and guessing the passphrase.
When knowing the structure of the filesystem, he will have a chance to
find the passphrase in a reasonable time.
When an attacher HAS TO decrypt the first block of a filesystem, AND
this filesystem starts with a challenge (random data) in the first block
and the real filesystem begins at the second block, there is no way to
guess the passphrase, because the attacker cannot check, if the first
block was decrypted correctly.

If i had to build an encrypted filesystem, i would use clusters of i.e.
8kb, starting with a challenge (256 bytes), followed by data (7.5 kb),
followed by error correction data (256 bytes).
On every write, the first 7 3/4 kb will be encrypted and then the
error-corrction code will we calculated for that data and stored in the
last part of the cluster.
I think, this will give good security with reasonable CPU-effort.


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Re: safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread martin f krafft
also sprach Michael Buchholz [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005.06.17.0857 +0200]:
 If it would be that way, it would allways be necessary to decrypt
 the whole filesystem, when you want to read the last block. Or you
 have to store a decrypted version in memory...

No, it would not. You only need access to the immediately preceeding
block, since its *cipherdata* are used to encrypt the current block.

 And also, when you write any block, you have to reencrypt all the
 remaining blocks.

Yes, don't you?

 I don't know, what kind of CPU you use, but on my system, that
 would be really time consuming!!!

Just one of those 100 GHz low-end consumer products with 128 cores.
And you? :)

 The loss of a single block on a harddist should be protected by
 using some kind of forward error correction like the
 Solomon-Reed one.

But *is* it?

Before I put my data into a cipher file, I sure as hell want to
know...

What I find a bit peculiar: I have made an 8Mb test file in fs.img,
and I overwrite a small part of it:

  (dd if=fs.img bs=1 count=1; dd if=/dev/urandom bs=1 count=8;
dd if=fs.img bs=1 skip=10008) | fs2.img

When I mount fs2.img, I get no error... what gives?

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Re: safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread martin f krafft
also sprach Alexander Zangerl [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005.06.17.0915 +0200]:
 no, this is subtly wrong. the *encrypted* block affects the decryption of the 
 block following it, not the cleartext block.
 
 one dead block spills junk all over the block+1 when decrypted, 
 but the (undamaged) encrypted block+1 is used to decrypt block+2 and
 so on.

Ah, yeah, this makes perfect sense. I *knew* it even. I simply
failed to see the big picture.

So encrypted block devices are not really more dangerous than
clear-text in the end... I suppose with AES you end up losing at
least 64 bytes of data, which could be less without encryption...

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Re: safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread Alexander Zangerl
On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 09:36:07 +0200, Michael Buchholz writes:
On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:15:32 +1000
Alexander Zangerl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 no, this is subtly wrong. the *encrypted* block affects the decryption
 of the block following it, not the cleartext block.

That's a possible, but unsecure way to do that.

please note that i was talking about encryption algo blocks, not
filesystem blocks. what i've outlined is just the normal way 
cbc is implemented - which is what martin asked about.

how far you chain is up to the implementer of a crypto fs; and of course
there are pros and cons for chaining globally vs. chaining just a few crypto
blocks into a single fs block.

regards
az



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Re: safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread Bernd Eckenfels
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED] you wrote:
 Of course blocks are small, e.g. 64 bytes. However, doesn't CBC or
 EBC make sure that every block is chained to its predecessor, making
 even the very last block of a file dependent on the bits of the very
 first block?

It is therefore better to use counter mode for clusters.

Bernd


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Re: safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread Horst Pflugstaedt
On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 09:03:57AM +0200, martin f krafft wrote:
 also sprach Florian Weimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005.06.17.0848 +0200]:
  These are *cipher* blocks, and they are chained only within
  a *block device* block.
 
 Who guarantees that? If Cipherblock CB_x depends on CB_(x-1), then
 CB_last will indirectly depend on CB_first. If the data are large
 enough to span multiple block device blocks, damage to the beginning
 of the cipherfile makes the rest of the file unusable, no?

wouldn't it be possible to test that?
Scenario:
encrypt /dev/hda7, mount, fill it with some hundred small files (with
known content), unmount, change one bit/byte/block on /dev/hda7 (using dd),
remount, look for the remaining files and their contents.

I can imagine this might work; errors dont' have to be implemented in
hardware, do they?

Greetings
Horst


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Re: safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread Bernd Eckenfels
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED] you wrote:
 So encrypted block devices are not really more dangerous than
 clear-text in the end... I suppose with AES you end up losing at
 least 64 bytes of data, which could be less without encryption...

You lose much more with RAID-5, yes.

Greetings
Bernd


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Re: safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread martin f krafft
also sprach Horst Pflugstaedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005.06.17.1018 +0200]:
 encrypt /dev/hda7, mount, fill it with some hundred small files
 (with known content), unmount, change one bit/byte/block on
 /dev/hda7 (using dd), remount, look for the remaining files and
 their contents.

I've tried that and the filesystem mounts without error. I have not
yet figured out where the corruption occurs.

It's an 8M filesystem (twofish) and I put an 8M file of all zeroes
in there. After unmounting and deleting the loop device, I overwrote
four bytes in the file with . Saving, setting up the loop
devices, mounting... no errors.

**And the file is still all zeroes...**

So I guess there is error correction happening?

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Re: safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread Michael Buchholz
On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:01:02 +0200
martin f krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 devices, mounting... no errors.
 
 **And the file is still all zeroes...**
 
 So I guess there is error correction happening?

Is there something in the logfiles? Maybe the cryptoloop is a little
verbose about errors...

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Re: safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread martin f krafft
also sprach Michael Buchholz [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005.06.17.1218 +0200]:
 Is there something in the logfiles? Maybe the cryptoloop is a little
 verbose about errors...

Nope. Someone raised the point of a file with all zeroes being
possibly sparse, but I don't think that's the case if I wrote it
with

  dd if=/dev/zero of=file bs=8M count=1

right?

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Re: safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread Søren Hansen
fre, 17 06 2005 kl. 12:30 +0200, skrev martin f krafft:
 Nope. Someone raised the point of a file with all zeroes being
 possibly sparse, but I don't think that's the case if I wrote it
 with
 
   dd if=/dev/zero of=file bs=8M count=1
 
 right?

Right. Files are only sparse if you seek to somewhere in the file and
start your writing there. The empty space reads as \0's, but just
writing \0's won't give you a sparse file.


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Re: safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread Michael Buchholz
On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:30:58 +0200
martin f krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Nope. Someone raised the point of a file with all zeroes being
 possibly sparse, but I don't think that's the case if I wrote it
 with
 
   dd if=/dev/zero of=file bs=8M count=1
 
 right?

Right. This file contains 2^23 0x00's.
The other thing, mentioned, will happen with this code:

fd = open (empty_file, O_WRONLY, 0666);
lseek (fd, 2^23, SEEK_SET);
write (fd, ?, 1);
close (fd);

ls -l will show 8 MB
du -a will show 1k

Maybe, you'll like to try bigger damages to the encrypted fs, until the
error correction breaks.
And maybe, fill the file in the fs from /dev/randon instead of
/dev/zero.

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Re: safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread martin f krafft
also sprach Michael Buchholz [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005.06.17.1242 +0200]:
 fd = open (empty_file, O_WRONLY, 0666);
 lseek (fd, 2^23, SEEK_SET);
 write (fd, ?, 1);
 close (fd);

dd if=/dev/zero of=file bs=1 count=1 seek=8388607

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CAN-2005-1266 - Spamassassin

2005-06-17 Thread Jan Wagner
Hi there!

Since the end of april there is known an security issue for Spamassassin, 
which is described here[0]
This issue has been assigned CVE id CAN-2005-1266 [1].

The question which comes in my mind ... how (and when) will this be fixed in 
sarge, when the security infrastructure is broken.

With kind Regards, Jan.

[0] 
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=spamassassin-announcem=111886630726077w=2
[1] http://www.cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CAN-2005-1266
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Re: Security Support by the Security-Team

2005-06-17 Thread Jan Lühr
Greetings,

Am Freitag, 17. Juni 2005 10:58 schrieb Florian Weimer:
 Rumors suggest that the technical foundations of security support for
 sarge and woody are working again.

Nice to hear - however, a SpamAssassin-patch has to be ported to sarge.[1] 
Let's see... the Sec-Announce was posted ~2 days ago. I expect exploits to 
appear soon, considering the uhm, eh... commercial interest in delivering 
spam.

Everyone is to invited, to count the number of days...

Keep smiling
yanosz

[1] 
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=spamassassin-announcem=111886630726077w=2


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root login denied. But by what?

2005-06-17 Thread David Ramsden
Hi,

Logcheck has just given me three of the following:
Jun 17 17:17:15 hexstream [877]: root login denied [username: (0), IP/port: no 
ip?!]

Each one with a different PID. They appear in my /var/log/auth.log

I've never seen this type of message before but I've recently upgraded to the 
latest
release of stable.

Does anyone know what generated the above log entries? And why is there no ip?

Regards,
David.
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Re: safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread Ben Pfaff
martin f krafft [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 However, doesn't CBC or EBC make sure that every block is
 chained to its predecessor, making even the very last block of
 a file dependent on the bits of the very first block?

Yes and no.  If you change the first block in a set of
CBC-chained blocks, the last block will change.  But to recover
the contents of the last block, you only need the last block and
the preceding block (and the key).
-- 
I was born lazy.  I am no lazier now than I was forty years ago, 
 but that is because I reached the limit forty years ago.  You can't 
 go beyond possibility.
--Mark Twain


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Re: root login denied. But by what?

2005-06-17 Thread Marcin Owsiany
On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 07:33:02PM +0100, David Ramsden wrote:
 Does anyone know what generated the above log entries?

try:

find /usr/sbin /sbin /usr/local/sbin \
 /usr/bin /usr/local/bin /bin /usr/lib /lib -type f | \
while read f; do
 if strings $f | egrep -q 'no ip\?!'; then
   echo it's $f !
 fi
done

 And why is there no ip?

I guess this is a bug..

Marcin
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Re: root login denied. But by what?

2005-06-17 Thread David Ramsden
On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 10:47:49PM +0200, Marcin Owsiany wrote:
 On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 07:33:02PM +0100, David Ramsden wrote:
  Does anyone know what generated the above log entries?
 
 try:
 
 find /usr/sbin /sbin /usr/local/sbin \
  /usr/bin /usr/local/bin /bin /usr/lib /lib -type f | \
 while read f; do
  if strings $f | egrep -q 'no ip\?!'; then
echo it's $f !
  fi
 done
 

Thanks for that Marcin. Worked well and found the program that caused 
this.

It was scponly. I'm guessing a shell user ran it from an SSH session and 
it's generated the log entries. So nothing to worry about!

Thanks once again!
David.
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Re: safety of encrypted filesystems

2005-06-17 Thread Bernd Eckenfels
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED] you wrote:
 Nope. Someone raised the point of a file with all zeroes being
 possibly sparse, but I don't think that's the case if I wrote it
 with

have you unmounted the file before writing to it? perhaps you changes was
overwritten with the blok from cache


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