Alguém tm experiência com essa ferramenta ?
Qual o procedimento mais adequado para se realizar backup ?
--
Desde já agradeço,
+++
Flávio de Oliveira Barros
Manaus - Amazonas - Brasil
Copiar é bom!
Seja Legal
Use Software Livre
Olá pessoal!
Estou com um problema no Lenny, sempre que tenta acessar o init 1 da a
seguinte mensagem de erro:
Will now switch to single-user mode.
INIT: Going single user
INIT: sendind processes the THER signal
*error: 'single' exited outside the expected code flow.*
INIT: Sending processes
Fala Flávio,
2009/4/28 Flávio Barros flaviobar...@gmail.com:
Alguém tm experiência com essa ferramenta ?
Qual o procedimento mais adequado para se realizar backup ?
Essa ferramenta funciona perfeitamente mas demora MUITO tempo para
realizar o backup...
Abraços,
--
Davi Vercillo Carneiro
2009/4/28 Anacleto Junior suporte.anacl...@gmail.com:
Olá pessoal, voltei.
Eu efetuei alguns testes e constatei o seguinte:
-Usando o live cd nas estações com Windows, a internet também fica lenta.
-Configurando outro DNS, não resolveu meu problema. Percebi que 2 sites em
especiais (UOL e
* Kelly Clowers kelly.clow...@gmail.com [090427 21:03]:
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 20:17, Jeff Zhang ideal...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 12:43 AM, Rick rick0...@gmail.com wrote:
What would be a good choice, for a desktop search engine
There was a thread discussing this last
Hello *,
I have noticed this issue with IceWeasel on my Unibody MacBook a few weeks ago:
I thought that it was a misconfiguration, now I know it is ... expected.
It sounds very crazy as browsers are very common tools.
What I want to add is that with Safari everything looks fine:
so apparently
Hi
I'm looking for a simple example of a bash script that browse a ldap and
create a homedir+Maildir folder for each user found in the database.
Thanks
Philippe
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Hi all. I have a problem with my mail servers' web interface. On our
previous mail server we used SquirrelMail, now we try to use RoundCube. But
we have a problem because RoundCube doesn't see users' Maildir directories.
Could anyone give me a clue why is it that? Standard folders like 'new' and
On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 02:01:44 +0300
Dotan Cohen dotanco...@gmail.com wrote:
Hello Dotan,
Alt-SysRq-[R,S,E,I,S,U,B] in that order.
Why S twice? Or just a mistake?
--
Regards _
/ ) The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent
Junk floats on
Thanks for your assistance. I use lp or lpr for printing text files (as
stated in the OP), e.g.
$ ls |lp
to print a directory listing to the default printer (I have only one
printer). That lp is really /usr/bin/lp. I've made no changes to the
default Debian printing setup.
There's no
Probleme solved.
Le Tuesday 28 April 2009 08:51:34 Philippe Le Gal, vous avez écrit :
Hi
I'm looking for a simple example of a bash script that browse a ldap and
create a homedir+Maildir folder for each user found in the database.
Thanks
Philippe
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Imagine the next situation: one PC with windows, linux and a FAT32 data
partition. Someone tried to install a new linux distribution but he
didn't take care about the partitioning process and selected the
automatic creation. Now he has two partitions one ext3 for the system
and swap partition.
Dear All
I have 2 Computers behind a Firewall (currently D-Link DFL-200). Consider
one of them having IP-address 192.168.1.10 and the other having
192.168.1.11.
On both computers there is a ftp-server running. I want connect to the first
by `foous...@192.168.1.10:21', to the second by
Florian Kulzer wrote:
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 10:07:03 +, marc wrote:
I'm trying to use the following local .xmodmaprc
keycode 26 = e E e E eacute Eacute
keycode 31 = i I i I iacute Iacute
keycode 32 = o O o O oacute Oacute
keycode 30 = u U u U uacute Uacute
keycode 57 = n N
Samuel Bächler wrote:
Dear All
I have 2 Computers behind a Firewall (currently D-Link DFL-200). Consider
one of them having IP-address 192.168.1.10 and the other having
192.168.1.11.
On both computers there is a ftp-server running. I want connect to the
first
by `foous...@192.168.1.10:21',
2009/4/28 Samuel Bächler li...@boeser.ch:
Dear All
I have 2 Computers behind a Firewall (currently D-Link DFL-200). Consider
one of them having IP-address 192.168.1.10 and the other having
192.168.1.11.
On both computers there is a ftp-server running. I want connect to the first
by
Hello
Samuel Bächler wrote:
Dear All
I have 2 Computers behind a Firewall (currently D-Link DFL-200). Consider
one of them having IP-address 192.168.1.10 and the other having
192.168.1.11.
On both computers there is a ftp-server running. I want connect to the
first
by
Florian Kulzer said:
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 10:07:03 +, marc wrote:
I'm trying to use the following local .xmodmaprc
keycode 26 = e E e E eacute Eacute
keycode 31 = i I i I iacute Iacute
keycode 32 = o O o O oacute Oacute
keycode 30 = u U u U uacute Uacute
keycode
On Ter, 28 Abr 2009, Serge Khmelevsky wrote:
Hi, some VOB files has the menus and I cannot understand how to handle
such menus.
My favorite video player is xine, so I have googled how to handle DVD
menus with it and found something about libdvdcss and xine-dvdnav. I
cannot find these packages in
Greetings from Here.
While running fslint i came across a bunch of repeated files on
~/.smplayer. It seems that this application is caching other
applications' stuff. Not only do i have Opera's and Firefox's cache,
the same files are also under ~/.smplayer/.opera and .mozilla...
There's also
On Ter, 28 Abr 2009, Philippe Le Gal wrote:
Probleme solved.
You might want to tell the list how you did that, in case other people
have a similar problem and could benefit from the solution.
--
Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
edua...@kalinowski.com.br
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Hi Andrzej,
On Tue, 2009-04-28 at 03:34 +0200, Andrzej wrote:
I just installed Lenny 64 and have problem with UPS software. There is no
debs, but script for so called other distros. I run it and seems to be ok. But
when I tried to run it i receive errror: upsm: error while loading shared
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 12:28 PM, John Magolske listm...@b79.net wrote:
* Kelly Clowers kelly.clow...@gmail.com [090427 21:03]:
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 20:17, Jeff Zhang ideal...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 12:43 AM, Rick rick0...@gmail.com wrote:
What would be a good
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
edua...@kalinowski.com.br wrote:
On Ter, 28 Abr 2009, Philippe Le Gal wrote:
Probleme solved.
You might want to tell the list how you did that, in case other people have
a similar problem and could benefit from the solution.
A simple
Hi,
I have a 2 1TB SATA hardisk configuration with an Adaptec 1220SA
controller. I created a healthy RAID 1 array and now I want to install a
lenny distribution on it. Now my first question is, in the debian
installer I see two drives /sda and /sdb instead of only one. Now how to
partition
Hello,
When playing an mp3-song using noatun (KDE 3.5.10 and 4.2.2), noatun
displays the title of the currently played song in a format, that can be
configured in the noatun settings. (The playlist uses probably the same
format)
There's a line that composes the format of the title to display,
Yes, xine plays DVD fine. I cannot use menus on DVD in gXine too. May
be additional plugins are required?
Cheers,
Serge.
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On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 10:50:25AM +0800, 明覺 wrote:
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 9:55 AM, Thamm, Russell
russell.th...@dsto.defence.gov.au wrote:
Hi,
I've just installed lenny under VirtualBox as I wanted to try a different
Linux distribution.
When I logon to a Gnome session, I often get
oops. I wanted this to go to the list. darn gmail :(
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 6:13 AM, David Fox dfox94...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 4:56 AM, Miles Fidelman
It's a reference manual, not a getting started book - and like any reference
manual it tries to have everything you might
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 11:47 PM, Brad Rogers b...@fineby.me.uk wrote:
Why S twice? Or just a mistake?
Probably overkill. Habits die hard, and for instance 'sync;sync;sync'
is probably engrained into the fingers of many a Unix admin, but it's
probably overkill.
Reminds me of that line from
If these VOBs form a DVD structure (VIDEO_TS directory, files with
names such as VTS_01_1.VOB or something similar), you can run
something like
xine dvd:/path/to/your/dvd/structure
If not, then you could try to form a DVD structure, but the files have
to contain the whole DVD, menus and
On Tuesday 28 April 2009 01:43:05 debian-user-digest-requ...@lists.debian.org
wrote:
What would be a good choice, for a desktop search engine,
since have TB of Music and Video, and GB of .pdf files,
would like to index all, including metadata...
I have not used any of them extensively,
Adrian Chapela wrote:
Imagine the next situation: one PC with windows, linux and a FAT32
data partition. Someone tried to install a new linux distribution but
he didn't take care about the partitioning process and selected the
automatic creation. Now he has two partitions one ext3 for the
On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 10:20:32 +0800, jida...@jidanni.org wrote:
I wonder how to stop this error.
(EE) AIGLX error: dlopen of /usr/lib/dri/swrast_dri.so failed
(/usr/lib/dri/swrast_dri.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or
directory)
(EE) GLX: could not load software
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 02:03:10PM +0200, Peter Sprenger wrote:
Hi,
I have a 2 1TB SATA hardisk configuration with an Adaptec 1220SA
controller. I created a healthy RAID 1 array and now I want to install a
lenny distribution on it. Now my first question is, in the debian
installer I
Paul Johnson wrote:
Alan Shutko wrote:
Aryan Ameri a.am...@linuxiran.org writes:
Well, I always thought that AutoCAD was the equivalent of Windows in the
CAD world. And I thought that for more professinal stuff ( i.e
designing BMW cars) businesses use more sophisticated products (which
-totem-20090428-4326-Y_6000
... it's hard to report bugs, and hard to figure out why you can't
report bugs with so little information. This was the forth or fifth
time I had tried to report the bug using the bugreport program... there
must be a better way...
BC
Hi,
I upgrade my emacs from emacs21 to emacs22, but the default version
control for rcs files are not working any more.
According to
http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Version-
Control.html
VC is enabled by default in Emacs.
and I never have to do anything before to get
Henk Koster wrote:
Thanks for your assistance. I use lp or lpr for printing text files (as
stated in the OP), e.g.
$ ls |lp
to print a directory listing to the default printer (I have only one
printer). That lp is really /usr/bin/lp. I've made no changes to the
default Debian printing
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 11:42:13 +, marc wrote:
Florian Kulzer said:
[...]
Once you are done editing the file you can compile the new keymap and
update the layout of the X server (both steps with one command):
$ xkbcomp layout.xkb $DISPLAY
The changes should be effective
Hi there,
I'm using Debian Testing but with apt-pinning so that I can get stuff from
unstable as well.
I installed XFCE 4.6 from unstable, and all went well up to a point. There was
an update to 4.6.1 recently, looks like everything except xfdesktop came down.
Now I've been stuck in this
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 06:01:14 -0500, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote:
Florian Kulzer wrote:
[...]
I do not know how to override these restricted type definitions with
xmodmap, but it is not difficult to tweak the layout with xkbcomp:
$ xkbcomp $DISPLAY layout.xkb
With the Upgraded xserver-xorg
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 01:39:18PM EDT, Dotan Cohen wrote:
[..]
You must be using one of the M$ Windows clones as your desktop.
KDE 4.2 at the moment, which is acceptably quick. KDE 3.5.10 on the
same hardware (2 GB RAM, 2 GHz dual core processor, 7200 RPM sata
drive) was sluggish
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
JoeHill wrote:
Hi there,
I'm using Debian Testing but with apt-pinning so that I can get stuff from
unstable as well.
I installed XFCE 4.6 from unstable, and all went well up to a point. There was
an update to 4.6.1 recently, looks like
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 00:40:32 +0200, Davide Mancusi wrote:
Earlier, Florian Kulzer wrote:
[...]
Strace suggests that the mouse and keyboard settings are saved in
~/.kde/share/config/kcminputrc on my system. Do you have anything in
this file? My keyboard section in there looks like
Harry Rickards wrote:
JoeHill wrote:
Hi there,
I'm using Debian Testing but with apt-pinning so that I can get stuff from
unstable as well.
I installed XFCE 4.6 from unstable, and all went well up to a point. There
was an update to 4.6.1 recently, looks like everything except
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 14:19:28 +1200, Sam wrote:
Okay this is ungraceful entrance to this mailing list but I hope that
someone can help. I seem to have butchered my default Python install
somewhat. The server is running Debian 'etch' and I wanted to make
python2.5 the default install so I
Le Tuesday 28 April 2009 03:55:47 Thamm, Russell, vous avez écrit :
Hi,
I've just installed lenny under VirtualBox as I wanted to try a
different Linux distribution.
When I logon to a Gnome session, I often get a popup saying:
Your system has had a kernel failure
It most often happens
On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:26:33 -0400
JoeHill joeh...@teksavvy.com wrote:
Hi there,
I'm using Debian Testing but with apt-pinning so that I can get stuff
from unstable as well.
I installed XFCE 4.6 from unstable, and all went well up to a point.
There was an update to 4.6.1 recently,
Samuel Bächler wrote:
I have 2 Computers behind a Firewall (currently D-Link DFL-200).
On both computers there is a ftp-server running. I want connect to
the first by `foous...@192.168.1.10:21', to the second by
`foous...@192.168.1.11:2121'.
I've configured many Netgear, DLink, Netopia,
In 20090428131409.036db...@teksavvy.com, JoeHill wrote:
node1:/home/joehill# aptitude -t unstable install xfdesktop4
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Reading extended state information
Initializing package states... Done
Reading task
Florian Kulzer said:
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 11:42:13 +, marc wrote:
Florian Kulzer said:
[...]
Once you are done editing the file you can compile the new keymap and
update the layout of the X server (both steps with one command):
$ xkbcomp layout.xkb $DISPLAY
The changes
On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:08:58 + (UTC)
T o n g mlist4sunt...@yahoo.com wrote:
Do I have to do anything special for emacs22?
no
File is under version-control; use C-x v v to check in/out [2 times]
without getting into the vc log message buffer.
rcs is working fine for me.
when i check
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
In 20090428131409.036db...@teksavvy.com, JoeHill wrote:
node1:/home/joehill# aptitude -t unstable install xfdesktop4
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Reading extended state information
Initializing
Sorry, your're right.
I found a simple example here :
http://www.zimbra.com/forums/administrators/22998-automated-ad-users-sync-script.html
With minors changes, it makes the deal.
Thanks for the other answers to the post.
Philippe
Le Tuesday 28 April 2009 13:50:10 Eduardo M KALINOWSKI, vous
On 2009-04-28 18:08 +0200, T o n g wrote:
I upgrade my emacs from emacs21 to emacs22, but the default version
control for rcs files are not working any more.
Hard to believe.
According to
http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Version-
Control.html
VC is enabled by
Yes your solution is similar the one I found here :
http://www.zimbra.com/forums/administrators/22998-automated-ad-users-sync-script.html
I work on a mail server with postfix, procmail, amavis, spamassassin,
dovecot.
The authentication is base on a ldap server on another host.
The users maildir
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 11:26 AM, JoeHill joeh...@teksavvy.com wrote:
node1:/home/joehill# apt-cache policy xfdesktop4
xfdesktop4:
Installed: (none)
Candidate: 4.4.2-7
Version table:
4.6.0-2 0
800 http://debian.yorku.ca unstable/main Packages
100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
On Mon,27.Apr.09, 10:24:39, H.S. wrote:
Sure there is, but one has to keep the audience in mind. A beginner or a
person just starting to find introductory information regarding current
linux distros and related applications and programs is best served by
google (the search is very fast and
In 20090428142648.76754...@teksavvy.com, JoeHill wrote:
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
In 20090428131409.036db...@teksavvy.com, JoeHill wrote:
node1:/home/joehill# aptitude -t unstable install xfdesktop4
The following packages have unmet dependencies:
xfdesktop4: Depends: xfdesktop4-data (=
On Tue,28.Apr.09, 18:04:46, marc wrote:
Nah, might get overwritten with an update down the line.
The relevant package is xkb-data and it's not updated too often, there
were 5 uploads for 2008 (according to Debian.changelog).
I keep my changes as a patch in root's home and just 'patch
On Mon, 2009-04-27 at 12:33 +0100, Pete Boyd wrote:
I have a mail and Samba PDC server that, after a couple of days, runs
out
of RAM then swap then freaks out with oom killer kicking in, at which
point it becomes very unresponsive and needs rebooting.
Does anyone have any ideas of what
On Mon,27.Apr.09, 17:58:56, Erik Xavior wrote:
Hi
How to shut down a firewall officaly?
shutdown -h now
;)
That was a joke! As the firewall is integral part of the linux kernel
you probably don't want to shut it down, but clear all rules. See the
manual page of iptables, the tool used for
we are using python-pyfits to try to work through a scipy tutorial:
http://www.scipy.org/wikis/topical_software/Tutorial
it requires import numdisplay, but there is no python-numdisplay on
debian (as there is on fedora, for instance).
on the web we can get numdisplay, but it produced this same
extension not supported by server.
Wrote bug report to /tmp/reportbug-totem-20090428-4326-Y_6000
... it's hard to report bugs, and hard to figure out why you can't
report bugs with so little information. This was the forth or fifth
time I had tried to report the bug using the bugreport program
明覺 wrote:
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 9:55 AM, Thamm, Russell
russell.th...@dsto.defence.gov.au wrote:
Hi,
I've just installed lenny under VirtualBox as I wanted to try a different
Linux distribution.
When I logon to a Gnome session, I often get a popup saying:
Your system has had a kernel
Hi,
I wonder how to configure the thinkpad Fn+F4/F12 suspend 2 ram / disk keys.
I have installed kmilo, powersaved, kpowersave, acpid, uswsusp,
laptop-mode-tools.
I am using KDE 3.5.9.
Currently nothing happens by pressing these keys.
The cmdline utils work, eg. s2ram -f or s2disk, resume to.
Florian,
Thanks for your time.
Strace suggests that the mouse and keyboard settings are saved in
~/.kde/share/config/kcminputrc on my system. Do you have anything
in this file? My keyboard section in there looks like this:
[snip]
The file exists, but there's no
Hello everybody. I have been using Debian for a while, I had an old
system which went through many dist upgrades and I always played with
testing and unstable stuff, even before I actually knew what I was
doing.
Now since I'm running a fresh and clean Lenny install I'm here
to ask what is the
On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 20:39:03 +0200, Sven Joachim wrote:
File is under version-control; use C-x v v to check in/out [2 times]
Well, did you try C-x v v then? . . .
Gotya, thanks for the comprehensive explanation.
--
Tong (remove underscore(s) to reply)
In f437ec30904281645v36762c24n6ad66abc85459...@mail.gmail.com, Matteo Riva
wrote:
Hello everybody. I have been using Debian for a while, I had an old
system which went through many dist upgrades and I always played with
testing and unstable stuff, even before I actually knew what I was
doing.
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Preston Boyington
preston.li...@gmail.com wrote:
Paul Johnson wrote:
Alan Shutko wrote:
Aryan Ameri a.am...@linuxiran.org writes:
Well, I always thought that AutoCAD was the equivalent of Windows in the
CAD world. And I thought that for more professinal
Michael Biebl bi...@debian.org writes:
echo blacklist 8139cp /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist.conf
Now with the 2.6.29-1-686 kernel none of this is needed! The errors are gone.
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On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 09:59:01PM +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote:
On Mon,27.Apr.09, 10:24:39, H.S. wrote:
Sure there is, but one has to keep the audience in mind. A beginner or a
person just starting to find introductory information regarding current
linux distros and related applications
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 01:45:22AM +0200, Matteo Riva wrote:
Hello everybody. I have been using Debian for a while, I had an old
system which went through many dist upgrades and I always played with
testing and unstable stuff, even before I actually knew what I was
doing.
Now since I'm
posted mailed
Freddy Freeloader wrote:
I've never been pissed off at Debian before but I guess there is always
a first.
I'm experiencing a bug in Gnucash that appeared a couple of days ago on
my system that makes Gnucash completely unusable for me. I turned in a
bug report on Friday,
Hallo,
i have an ESXi with debian as guest with vmwaretools.
i update debian etch to lenny, and the update shows no errors. But the
kernel 2.6.26 dont find eth0. If i boot with 2.6.18, the system find eth0
and all works fine.
Bootmessage
Configurating network interfaces ...
Mario Batz wrote:
Hallo,
i have an ESXi with debian as guest with vmwaretools.
i update debian etch to lenny, and the update shows no errors. But the
kernel 2.6.26 dont find eth0. If i boot with 2.6.18, the system find eth0
and all works fine.
I moved 70-persistent-net.rules, but the
Hi,
By going to Lenny the kernel changed
I would assume then, you need to re-run /usr/bin/vmware-config-tools.pl and
restart networking, or reboot, did you do that?
Which version is the esxi? 3.5update3? update4 is now out, its supposed to
have better support for vmware tools.
regards
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
In 20090428142648.76754...@teksavvy.com, JoeHill wrote:
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
In 20090428131409.036db...@teksavvy.com, JoeHill wrote:
node1:/home/joehill# aptitude -t unstable install xfdesktop4
The following packages have unmet dependencies:
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
It wants a version that exactly matches its version. Unfortunately, that
version is not available. xfdesktop4=4.6.0-2 isn't available in the main
archive anymore either.
...aand I only had to be patient for another few minutes. It's fixed now,
just came
On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 01:18:09AM -0700, G. Crimp wrote:
Hi,
I'm trying to use xen for the first time. This box is running a recent
install of Lenny.
# time xm create -c config.mabelle_vm
/ramdisk=/boot/initrd.img-2.6.26-2-xen-686
Using config file /etc/xen/config.mabelle_vm.
In 20090429035421.b67ee13a5...@liszt.debian.org, Mario Batz wrote:
i have an ESXi with debian as guest with vmwaretools.
i update debian etch to lenny, and the update shows no errors. But the
kernel 2.6.26 dont find eth0. If i boot with 2.6.18, the system find eth0
and all works fine.
I'm not
David Fox wrote:
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 11:26 AM, JoeHill joeh...@teksavvy.com wrote:
node1:/home/joehill# apt-cache policy xfdesktop4
xfdesktop4:
Installed: (none)
Candidate: 4.4.2-7
Version table:
4.6.0-2 0
800 http://debian.yorku.ca unstable/main Packages
Hi,
The guest should be seeing a vmware vmxnet module and not the e1000, the e1000
is esxi compatibleits one of the better ones.
regards
Steven
-Original Message-
From: Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. [mailto:b...@iguanasuicide.net]
Sent: Wednesday, 29 April 2009 4:18 p.m.
To:
Thank you very much indeed Florian for your detailed and clear reply -
that seems to have fixed the problem.
Kind regards
Sam
2009/4/29 Florian Kulzer florian.kulzer+deb...@icfo.es:
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 14:19:28 +1200, Sam wrote:
Okay this is ungraceful entrance to this mailing list but I
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