Re: Limit memory consumption of an ad hoc process

2021-07-05 Thread Victor Sudakov
The Wanderer wrote: > On 2021-07-05 at 22:42, Victor Sudakov wrote: > > > Greg Wooledge wrote: > > >> And in any case, when you test this stuff, use the subshells. > > > > Well, my goal is to find a way to limit programs run from cron, PHP's > > proc_open() etc., not from the interactive

Re: Limit memory consumption of an ad hoc process

2021-07-05 Thread Victor Sudakov
Victor Sudakov wrote: > > FreeBSD has a simple way to run some ad-hoc program with memory limits: > > $ limits -m 2G ./mytest > memoryuse 2097152 kB > vmemoryuse infinity kB > $ limits -m 1G ./mytest > memoryuse 1048576 kB > vmemoryuse infinity

Re: Limit memory consumption of an ad hoc process

2021-07-05 Thread Victor Sudakov
Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 11:01:25PM -0400, The Wanderer wrote: > > On 2021-07-05 at 22:42, Victor Sudakov wrote: > > > > > Greg Wooledge wrote: > > > > >> And in any case, when you test this stuff, use the subshells. > > > > > > Well, my goal is to find a way to limit

Re: Limit memory consumption of an ad hoc process

2021-07-05 Thread Greg Wooledge
On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 11:11:06PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > > > $ prlimit --as=1048576 /bin/ls > > > /bin/ls: error while loading shared libraries: libselinux.so.1: failed to > > > map segment from shared object > > Sounds like you set it too low. Remember, setrlimit(2) and prlimit(2) >

Re: Limit memory consumption of an ad hoc process

2021-07-05 Thread Greg Wooledge
On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 11:01:25PM -0400, The Wanderer wrote: > On 2021-07-05 at 22:42, Victor Sudakov wrote: > > > Greg Wooledge wrote: > > >> And in any case, when you test this stuff, use the subshells. > > > > Well, my goal is to find a way to limit programs run from cron, PHP's > >

Re: Limit memory consumption of an ad hoc process

2021-07-05 Thread The Wanderer
On 2021-07-05 at 22:42, Victor Sudakov wrote: > Greg Wooledge wrote: >> And in any case, when you test this stuff, use the subshells. > > Well, my goal is to find a way to limit programs run from cron, PHP's > proc_open() etc., not from the interactive shell. What would you advise? Is there

Re: Limit memory consumption of an ad hoc process

2021-07-05 Thread Victor Sudakov
Greg Wooledge wrote: [dd] > > > > > > # ulimit -m 1048576 ; stress-ng --vm 1 --vm-bytes 8G > > stress-ng: info: [10961] defaulting to a 86400 second (1 day, 0.00 secs) > > run per stressor > > stress-ng: info: [10961] dispatching hogs: 1 vm > > > > stress-ng is not killed. Swap is not

mozillla firefox

2021-07-05 Thread diego leon giraldo garcia
buenas tardes cómo instalo firefox 89.0.2 en debian 10.9 ?habían escrito sobre la versión 85 pero será el mismo proceso? no basta con apt get install es un archivo tar.bz2 gracias

Re: the Amazing Poly

2021-07-05 Thread John Hasler
ellanios82 writes: > It's a pretty common requirement, as at one time it was the second > best spam defence (after accepting mail only for named users). Not so > good now that many ISPs are providing some kind of PTR record. Some ISPs try to provide a single record for a group of their dynamic

Re: Memory allocation failed during fsck of large EXT4 filesystem

2021-07-05 Thread Michael Stone
On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 02:21:05PM -0700, Thomas D. Dean wrote: On 7/5/21 1:54 PM, Michael Stone wrote: On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 12:53:39PM +0300, IL Ka wrote: 7TB seems like too much for one partition imho. Consider splitting it into the parts That's silly. It's 2021; 7TB isn't particularly

Re: Memory allocation failed during fsck of large EXT4 filesystem

2021-07-05 Thread Thomas D. Dean
On 7/5/21 1:54 PM, Michael Stone wrote: On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 12:53:39PM +0300, IL Ka wrote: 7TB seems like too much for one partition imho. Consider splitting it into the parts That's silly. It's 2021; 7TB isn't particularly large and there's no value in breaking things into multiple

Re: Memory allocation failed during fsck of large EXT4 filesystem

2021-07-05 Thread Michael Stone
On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 12:53:39PM +0300, IL Ka wrote: 7TB seems like too much for one partition imho. Consider splitting it into the parts That's silly. It's 2021; 7TB isn't particularly large and there's no value in breaking things into multiple partitions for no reason.

Re: MTA

2021-07-05 Thread Joe
On Mon, 5 Jul 2021 16:45:17 +0200 Vincent Lefevre wrote: > On 2021-07-05 10:06:24 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > > > A more sensible antispam filter might consider a mismatched reverse > > to be one potential factor in deciding whether a given message is > > "spam". In the absence of any other

Re: MTA

2021-07-05 Thread Joe
On Mon, 5 Jul 2021 09:23:03 -0400 Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote: > > I was thinking that maybe I should start thinking about hosting my own > email server. But I wasn't sure if I felt like I had the nerve to do > so. Some people say it's a lot of maintenance work. > No, it's not a

Re: MTA (corrected)

2021-07-05 Thread Joe
On Mon, 5 Jul 2021 16:55:44 +0200 Vincent Lefevre wrote: > On 2021-07-05 10:32:27 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote: > > > What is this 162.213.253.79 IP address? > > > > The IP address 162.213.253.79 is the dedicated IP I rent from > > Namecheap. > > OK. > > > Can you control

Re: MTA

2021-07-05 Thread Joe
On Mon, 5 Jul 2021 09:35:22 -0400 Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 09:23:03AM -0400, Polyna-Maude > Racicot-Summerside wrote: > > Reporting-MTA: dns; premium58.web-hosting.com > > > > Action: failed > > Final-Recipient: rfc822;bjoern.ri...@greenbone.net > > Status: 5.0.0 > >

Microsoft teams in browser

2021-07-05 Thread Paul van der Vlis
Hallo, Ik moet wellicht binnenkort een Microsoft teams meeting bijwonen. De vorige keer vertelde men me dat ik geen software hoefde te installeren, alleen op een link te klikken. Dat heb ik toen gedaan maar het ging niet goed, hij bleef maar proberen een connectie te maken, maar die kwam

Re: the Amazing Poly

2021-07-05 Thread ellanios82
On 7/5/21 9:58 PM, Nicolas George wrote: Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside (12021-07-05): There's plenty of word with the prefix "poly". In some way, we can consider "poly" meaning many different. Polygon, polykystic... I'm sure you know that "poly" is "many" in ancient Greek. Regards,  &,

Re: Memory allocation failed during fsck of large EXT4 filesystem

2021-07-05 Thread Stefan Monnier
Reiner Buehl [2021-07-05 10:21:13] wrote: > Hi all, > I have a corrupt EXT4 filesystem where fsck.ext4 fails with the error > message: > > Error storing directory block information (inode=366740508, block=0, > num=406081): Memory allocation failed [...] > The system has 4GB of memory and a 8GB

Re: the Amazing Poly

2021-07-05 Thread Nicolas George
Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside (12021-07-05): > There's plenty of word with the prefix "poly". > In some way, we can consider "poly" meaning many different. > Polygon, polykystic... I'm sure you know that "poly" is "many" in ancient Greek. Regards, -- Nicolas George signature.asc

Re: Bullseye installation problem

2021-07-05 Thread Felix Miata
Chris Bell composed on 2021-07-05 18:22 (UTC+0100): > Machine HP Proliant ML150 with 5GB RAM and currently a single HDD. I normally > use a netinst CD created locally from the jigdo image (amd64). > I have tried to install both basic bullseye rc1 and bullseye rc2 with SSH > server several times

Re: the Amazing Poly

2021-07-05 Thread Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside
Hi, On 2021-07-05 1:45 p.m., ellanios82 wrote: > > "All red wines have something called “polyphenol” in them. The American > physician Dr. Joseph Mercola reports: > There's plenty of word with the prefix "poly". In some way, we can consider "poly" meaning many different. Polygon, polykystic...

re: the Amazing Poly

2021-07-05 Thread ellanios82
"All red wines have something called “polyphenol” in them. The American physician Dr. Joseph Mercola reports: * Polyphenols are micronutrients with antioxidant activity, found most abundantly in whole foods such as dried spices, fruits, vegetables, red wine, and cocoa. *

Bullseye installation problem

2021-07-05 Thread Chris Bell
Hello, Machine HP Proliant ML150 with 5GB RAM and currently a single HDD. I normally use a netinst CD created locally from the jigdo image (amd64). I have tried to install both basic bullseye rc1 and bullseye rc2 with SSH server several times over the last few days, using different netinst CD's,

Re: MTA (corrected)

2021-07-05 Thread Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside
Hi, On 2021-07-05 1:07 p.m., Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 01:00:07PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside > wrote: >> On 2021-07-05 12:46 p.m., Greg Wooledge wrote: >>> unicorn:~$ host _dc-mx.f1202d9a4fb3.cyrania.com. >>> _dc-mx.f1202d9a4fb3.cyrania.com has address

Re: MTA (corrected)

2021-07-05 Thread Greg Wooledge
On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 01:00:07PM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote: > On 2021-07-05 12:46 p.m., Greg Wooledge wrote: > > unicorn:~$ host _dc-mx.f1202d9a4fb3.cyrania.com. > > _dc-mx.f1202d9a4fb3.cyrania.com has address 162.213.253.79 > > Host _dc-mx.f1202d9a4fb3.cyrania.com not found:

Re: MTA (corrected)

2021-07-05 Thread Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside
Hi On 2021-07-05 12:46 p.m., Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 10:32:27AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside > wrote: >> This is a copy of the dump of my domain name config for CYRANIA.COM >> >> ---START >> > [snip] > >> cyrania.com. 1 IN A 162.213.253.79 >

Re: Limit memory consumption of an ad hoc process

2021-07-05 Thread Greg Wooledge
On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 10:57:03PM +0700, Victor Sudakov wrote: > Greg Wooledge wrote: > > One way would be: > > > > (ulimit -m 2097152; ./mytest) > > Is the value in KB or MB? Seems KB. Please read the documentation. unicorn:~$ ulimit -a | grep -- -m max memory size (kbytes, -m)

Re: MTA (corrected)

2021-07-05 Thread Greg Wooledge
On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 10:32:27AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote: > This is a copy of the dump of my domain name config for CYRANIA.COM > > ---START > [snip] > cyrania.com. 1 IN A 162.213.253.79 > ;; MX Records > cyrania.com. 1 IN MX 0

Re: Memory allocation failed during fsck of large EXT4 filesystem

2021-07-05 Thread Marc Auslander
On 7/5/2021 4:30 AM, Reiner Buehl wrote: Hi all, I have a corrupt EXT4 filesystem where fsck.ext4 fails with the error message: Error storing directory block information (inode=366740508, block=0, num=406081): Memory allocation failed /dev/vg_data/lv_mpg: * FILE SYSTEM WAS MODIFIED

Re: Limit memory consumption of an ad hoc process

2021-07-05 Thread Victor Sudakov
Victor Sudakov wrote: > > This assumes you're using bash as your shell. > > I am, as you see above. I expect stress-ng to be killed when it tries to > allocate 2G of memory but it's not happening. Can you reproduce your > advice? Even as root, there is no "Operation not permitted" message, but

Re: Limit memory consumption of an ad hoc process

2021-07-05 Thread Victor Sudakov
Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 10:15:19AM +0700, Victor Sudakov wrote: > > FreeBSD has a simple way to run some ad-hoc program with memory limits: > > > > $ limits -m 2G ./mytest > > memoryuse 2097152 kB > > vmemoryuse infinity kB > > $ limits -m 1G

Re: MTA (corrected)

2021-07-05 Thread Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside
Hi, On 2021-07-05 10:55 a.m., Vincent Lefevre wrote: > On 2021-07-05 10:32:27 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote: >>> What is this 162.213.253.79 IP address? >> >> The IP address 162.213.253.79 is the dedicated IP I rent from Namecheap. > > OK. > >> Can you control its reverse? >>>

Re: MTA

2021-07-05 Thread John Hasler
Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside writes: > I agree with you, people who SPAM do have the infrastructure to make > their domain resolution match, both forward, reverse and possibly > side-way if there's a need. They have huge amount of resources to do > so, they may even locate their server farm

Re: MTA

2021-07-05 Thread Vincent Lefevre
On 2021-07-05 10:22:26 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote: > What annoy my is that I am paying for a dedicated IP for my server (in > shared hosting) and I believe it must be a mis-configuration I've done, Yes, a mis-configuration in your case (see my other mail message). > I agree

Re: MTA (corrected)

2021-07-05 Thread Vincent Lefevre
On 2021-07-05 10:32:27 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote: > > What is this 162.213.253.79 IP address? > > The IP address 162.213.253.79 is the dedicated IP I rent from Namecheap. OK. > Can you control its reverse? > > > Good question, I'll need to go back read a bit on networking

Re: MTA

2021-07-05 Thread Vincent Lefevre
On 2021-07-05 10:06:24 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 03:48:47PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote: > > On 2021-07-05 09:35:22 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > > [...] > > > Your "reverse" (PTR record for 162.213.253.79) doesn't match. Which is > > > to say, none of the "A" results

Re: 2 NIC's

2021-07-05 Thread tomas
On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 04:13:07PM +0200, Nicolas George wrote: > to...@tuxteam.de (12021-07-05): > > Yes: ip_forward should be 1. > > Forwarding should not be necessary for connecting on the matching IP > address. If ethA has IP-A and is connected to net-A and ethB has IP-B > and is connected to

Re: Memory allocation failed during fsck of large EXT4 filesystem

2021-07-05 Thread IL Ka
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 5:17 PM Reiner Buehl wrote: > It seems swap is not the solution: Even after adding a 50G swap file, I > still get the same error message and the swap usage stats from collectd > show that max swap usage was not more than just 2G. > > btw, do you use 32 or 64bit os?

Re: MTA (corrected)

2021-07-05 Thread Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside
Hi, > premium58.web-hosting.com is not your SMTP submission server: > > $ host premium58.web-hosting.com > premium58.web-hosting.com has address 198.54.120.203 > The server premium58.web-hosting.com is hosted by NameCheap and is used by many of their user as part of their server farm. All the IP

Re: MTA

2021-07-05 Thread Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside
Hi Greg, On 2021-07-05 10:06 a.m., Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 03:48:47PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote: >> On 2021-07-05 09:35:22 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: >> [...] >>> Your "reverse" (PTR record for 162.213.253.79) doesn't match. Which is >>> to say, none of the "A"

Re: 2 NIC's

2021-07-05 Thread mick crane
On 2021-07-05 11:44, David wrote: Dear All, I am trying to get a thin client running with 2 NIC's and failing. Due to the age of the thin client I am running Debian 8 i386. I am trying to get the thin client to run as a proxy server with one NIC having a local (192.168.xx.xx) address, the

Re: Memory allocation failed during fsck of large EXT4 filesystem

2021-07-05 Thread Reiner Buehl
It seems swap is not the solution: Even after adding a 50G swap file, I still get the same error message and the swap usage stats from collectd show that max swap usage was not more than just 2G. I will now try if the scratch_files stanza makes a difference. Am Mo., 5. Juli 2021 um 11:50 Uhr

Re: 2 NIC's

2021-07-05 Thread Nicolas George
to...@tuxteam.de (12021-07-05): > Yes: ip_forward should be 1. Forwarding should not be necessary for connecting on the matching IP address. If ethA has IP-A and is connected to net-A and ethB has IP-B and is connected to net-B, then forwarding is not necessary to connect to IP-A from net-A nor

Re: MTA

2021-07-05 Thread Greg Wooledge
On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 03:48:47PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote: > On 2021-07-05 09:35:22 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > [...] > > Your "reverse" (PTR record for 162.213.253.79) doesn't match. Which is > > to say, none of the "A" results from cyrania.com. match the original > > IP address of

Re: MTA

2021-07-05 Thread Vincent Lefevre
On 2021-07-05 09:41:02 -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote: > Hi, > > On 2021-07-05 9:35 a.m., Greg Wooledge wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 09:23:03AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside > > wrote: > >> Reporting-MTA: dns; premium58.web-hosting.com > >> > >> Action: failed > >>

Re: MTA

2021-07-05 Thread Vincent Lefevre
On 2021-07-05 09:35:22 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: [...] > Your "reverse" (PTR record for 162.213.253.79) doesn't match. Which is > to say, none of the "A" results from cyrania.com. match the original > IP address of 162.213.253.79. > > Some SMTP receivers may care about that. [...] Yes, the

Re: MTA

2021-07-05 Thread Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside
Hi, On 2021-07-05 9:35 a.m., Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 09:23:03AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside > wrote: >> Reporting-MTA: dns; premium58.web-hosting.com >> >> Action: failed >> Final-Recipient: rfc822;bjoern.ri...@greenbone.net >> Status: 5.0.0 >> Remote-MTA: dns;

Re: MTA

2021-07-05 Thread Greg Wooledge
On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 09:23:03AM -0400, Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside wrote: > Reporting-MTA: dns; premium58.web-hosting.com > > Action: failed > Final-Recipient: rfc822;bjoern.ri...@greenbone.net > Status: 5.0.0 > Remote-MTA: dns; mail.greenbone.net > Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550

MTA

2021-07-05 Thread Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside
Hi, I'm getting this error when sending message (responding to user on the mailing list). Does someone has a small idea where I could start my investigation ? I'm hosting my mail server on Cloudflare DNS but the MX record is in clear. The mail server is using a reserved IP and it is serving

Re: Fwd: Re: why pdf file at archive.org is so slow to open

2021-07-05 Thread Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside
Hi, On 2021-07-05 2:34 a.m., to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 06:21:40AM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: >> >> Just a polite reminder: however annoyed you feel, insulting each other >> on list really doesn't help get technical or other points across. > I totally agree with you

Re: 2 NIC's

2021-07-05 Thread Greg Wooledge
On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 01:53:19PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > Could you tell us: > > - what the netmasks are > - the output of "ip route list" (or of "route -n"), best before >you connect eth1 and after? > > Is your box perhaps requesting (and getting) an IP address via > DHCP at the

Re: 2 NIC's

2021-07-05 Thread Jeremy Ardley
On 5/7/21 7:53 pm, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 07:38:42PM +0800, Jeremy Ardley wrote: On 5/7/21 6:44 pm, David wrote: Dear All, I am trying to get a thin client running with 2 NIC's and failing. [...] If eth0 & eth1 are both connected to the local network I can SSH

Re: 2 NIC's

2021-07-05 Thread tomas
On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 07:38:42PM +0800, Jeremy Ardley wrote: > > On 5/7/21 6:44 pm, David wrote: > >Dear All, > > > >I am trying to get a thin client running with 2 NIC's and failing. [...] > >If eth0 & eth1 are both connected to the local network I can SSH into > >the thin client. If I

Re: Limit memory consumption of an ad hoc process

2021-07-05 Thread Greg Wooledge
On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 10:15:19AM +0700, Victor Sudakov wrote: > FreeBSD has a simple way to run some ad-hoc program with memory limits: > > $ limits -m 2G ./mytest > memoryuse 2097152 kB > vmemoryuse infinity kB > $ limits -m 1G ./mytest > memoryuse

Re: 2 NIC's

2021-07-05 Thread Jeremy Ardley
On 5/7/21 6:44 pm, David wrote: Dear All, I am trying to get a thin client running with 2 NIC's and failing. Due to the age of the thin client I am running Debian 8 i386. I am trying to get the thin client to run as a proxy server with one NIC having a local (192.168.xx.xx) address, the

2 NIC's

2021-07-05 Thread David
Dear All, I am trying to get a thin client running with 2 NIC's and failing. Due to the age of the thin client I am running Debian 8 i386. I am trying to get the thin client to run as a proxy server with one NIC having a local (192.168.xx.xx) address, the other NIC has a public IP address

Re: removing modules

2021-07-05 Thread Brian
On Sun 04 Jul 2021 at 23:53:15 -0500, David Wright wrote: > On Sun 04 Jul 2021 at 21:12:10 (+0100), Brian wrote: > > On Sun 04 Jul 2021 at 20:16:25 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote: > > > On Sun, 4 Jul 2021 19:42:26 +0100 Brian wrote: > > > >I did specify "as time goes on". Suppose one boots successfully

Re: Memory allocation failed during fsck of large EXT4 filesystem

2021-07-05 Thread Thomas Schmitt
Hi, Reiner Buehl wrote: > Is there a quick way to enlarge the swap space According to old memories of mine you may create a large, non-sparse file as you would do for a virtual disk. E.g. by mkfile (which seems not to be in Debian) or qemu-img (from qemu-utils): qemu-img create

Re: Memory allocation failed during fsck of large EXT4 filesystem

2021-07-05 Thread IL Ka
> Error storing directory block information (inode=366740508, block=0, > num=406081): Memory allocation failed > Try ``scratch_files`` https://manpages.debian.org/buster/e2fsprogs/e2fsck.conf.5.en.html This stanza controls when e2fsck will attempt to use scratch files to reduce the need for

Memory allocation failed during fsck of large EXT4 filesystem

2021-07-05 Thread Reiner Buehl
Hi all, I have a corrupt EXT4 filesystem where fsck.ext4 fails with the error message: Error storing directory block information (inode=366740508, block=0, num=406081): Memory allocation failed /dev/vg_data/lv_mpg: * FILE SYSTEM WAS MODIFIED * e2fsck: aborted /dev/vg_data/lv_mpg: *

Re: Fwd: Re: why pdf file at archive.org is so slow to open

2021-07-05 Thread tomas
On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 06:21:40AM +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: > > Just a polite reminder: however annoyed you feel, insulting each other > on list really doesn't help get technical or other points across. Thanks, Andrew. Folks: if you enjoy slinging mud at each other, fine. But please, do

Re: Fwd: Re: why pdf file at archive.org is so slow to open

2021-07-05 Thread Andrew M.A. Cater
Just a polite reminder: however annoyed you feel, insulting each other on list really doesn't help get technical or other points across. Anybody can phrase things badly: anybody can get things wrong at times: everybody can be wrong at times or just be badly informed. If all else fails: when