Re: Debian contributor Register of Interests (was Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...)

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, May 09, 2017 at 03:56:37PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 10:12:47AM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > > if people felt this was a concern, perhaps a process for voluntarily > > "declaring an interest" could be worked

Debian contributor Register of Interests (was Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...)

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 10:12:47AM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > if people felt this was a concern, perhaps a process for voluntarily > "declaring an interest" could be worked out. > > I should stress that I have no concerns about anyone I know, but in the > interests of transparency I would

Systemd services (was Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...)

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 5:42 PM, Joel Rees wrote: On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 4:13 AM, Nicholas Geovanis wrote: > Like numerous linux users I have sometimes lamented coming to terms with > systemd. My belief is that it's a well-written collection of

Fwd: Systemd services (was Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...)

On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 4:13 AM, Nicholas Geovanis wrote: > Like numerous linux users I have sometimes lamented coming to terms with > systemd. My belief is that it's a well-written collection of software which > is somewhat over-engineered. It fills a need, sure, though

Re: Systemd services (was Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...)

Like numerous linux users I have sometimes lamented coming to terms with systemd. My belief is that it's a well-written collection of software which is somewhat over-engineered. It fills a need, sure, though I've managed to live and work without it for a long time (been using linux since 1994).

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

Joel Rees: > > I wish I didn't have to put my conspiracy theorist hat on here, but I > suspect that many in HP's management are fearful of upsetting the 800 > pound gorilla/elephant in the room. > > Neither Microsoft nor Intel seem to have any desire to understand > where the technology on which

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 10:12:47AM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 07:40:04PM +0300, Reco wrote: > > I stand corrected. They (HP) hid it pretty well, though. > > I was under impression that they prefer something more

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 07:40:04PM +0300, Reco wrote: > I stand corrected. They (HP) hid it pretty well, though. > I was under impression that they prefer something more enterprisey > there, like SuSE or RHEL. > To complete the analogy with Fedora one needs to count all DDs who are on HPE >

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 12:41 AM, Gene Heskett wrote: > On Tuesday 18 April 2017 11:00:34 Jonathan Dowland wrote: > >> [...] >> In the past at least, HP hosted and provided servers and bandwidth for >> critical Debian build infrastructure, and (still) sponsor a group >>

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On 19/04/17 02:34, Reco wrote: It's inevitable. Those who are paid for their work tend to align with employer's view of things. I don't see it as a Universally Bad Thing™, or The Source Of All Evil™. It's just the way things are. This alignment is a natural human response and occurs without

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 04:00:34PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 05:34:56PM +0300, Reco wrote: > > My (tiny) contributions to Debian in the form of > > bug reports, patches and answering e-mails on this list here and there > > did not provide me with any income ☺. > >

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Tuesday 18 April 2017 11:00:34 Jonathan Dowland wrote: > On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 05:34:56PM +0300, Reco wrote: > > My (tiny) contributions to Debian in the form of > > bug reports, patches and answering e-mails on this list here and > > there did not provide me with any income ☺. > > Likewise;

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

Reco: > So, sooner or later, money come into play (aren't they always do?). The > important thing here for me is 'who pays', not 'who gets paid'. I mostly agree with your analysis but here I would add to the "who pays", "why are they paying" and "what exactly are they paying for" In most

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 05:34:56PM +0300, Reco wrote: > My (tiny) contributions to Debian in the form of > bug reports, patches and answering e-mails on this list here and there > did not provide me with any income ☺. Likewise; but your contributions are non-the-less appreciated. Thanks! > I'd

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 10:38:28PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 02:57:35PM +0300, Reco wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 06:37:03PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > > > Red Hat employees do have significant involvement in Fedora. This is true. > > > May I ask, what

Re: Systemd services (was Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...)

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 03:17:00PM +0200, Nicolas George wrote: > Note: systemd is not for end-users, it is for system administrator and > distribution authors. {systemctl,journalctl,etc.} --user beg to differ. -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net ⠈⠳⣄ Please do not

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 02:57:35PM +0300, Reco wrote: > On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 06:37:03PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > > Red Hat employees do have significant involvement in Fedora. This is true. > > May I ask, what model would you prefer? > > Both, actually. Your answer that follows

Re: Re: Systemd services (was Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...)

Greg Wooledge > wrote: On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 03:17:00PM +0200, Nicolas George wrote: > Le quintidi 25 germinal, an CCXXV, Greg Wooledge a écrit : > > Some day there will be actual end-user-friendly systemd documentation > > somewhere,

Re: Systemd services (was Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...)

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 9:37 PM, Greg Wooledge wrote: > [...] >Don't even get me started on sshd.service vs. ssh.service. Do you >have any idea how hard it is to notice that extra/missing "d", and >figure out why things Simply Do Not Work? Well, that

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 6:46 PM, Nicolas George wrote: > Le quintidi 25 germinal, an CCXXV, Joel Rees a écrit : >> > Summary: Linux has a new system call to allow process to register as >> > adopters for orphan processes. >> Ick. I hope they don't register directly with pid1. > >

Re: Systemd services (was Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...)

Greg Wooledge: > Don't even get me started on sshd.service vs. ssh.service. Do > you have any idea how hard it is to notice that extra/missing “d”, > and figure out why things Simply Do Not Work? * http://www.mail-archive.com/supervision@list.skarnet.org/msg01486.html *

Re: Systemd services (was Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...)

On 14/04/17 14:17, Nicolas George wrote: Le quintidi 25 germinal, an CCXXV, Greg Wooledge a écrit : Some day there will be actual end-user-friendly systemd documentation somewhere, consolidating all of these pieces of wisdom together. I hope. Note: systemd is not for end-users, it is for

Re: Systemd services (was Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...)

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 03:17:00PM +0200, Nicolas George wrote: > Le quintidi 25 germinal, an CCXXV, Greg Wooledge a écrit : > > Some day there will be actual end-user-friendly systemd documentation > > somewhere, consolidating all of these pieces of wisdom together. I hope. > > Note: systemd is

Re: Systemd services (was Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...)

On 14-04-17, Nicolas George wrote: > Le quintidi 25 germinal, an CCXXV, Greg Wooledge a écrit : > > Some day there will be actual end-user-friendly systemd documentation > > somewhere, consolidating all of these pieces of wisdom together. I hope. > > Note: systemd is not for end-users, it is for

Re: Systemd services (was Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...)

Le quintidi 25 germinal, an CCXXV, Greg Wooledge a écrit : > Some day there will be actual end-user-friendly systemd documentation > somewhere, consolidating all of these pieces of wisdom together. I hope. Note: systemd is not for end-users, it is for system administrator and distribution

Re: Systemd services (was Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...)

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:01:25PM +0100, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote: > ... albeit poorly. If one wants to run daemontools under systemd, svscanboot > is > not the way; svscanboot is a thing of the past > http://jdebp.eu./FGA/inittab-is-history.html#svscanboot , and was a source of >

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 06:37:03PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 06:44:08PM +0300, Reco wrote: > > Describing Fedora as 'community-driven' distribution is a gross > > oversimplification. It's not that I disagree with initial assessment - > > they don't sell you Debian

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

Le quintidi 25 germinal, an CCXXV, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit : > Thanks for you nice, condescending tone. Very much appreciated. I am sorry you take it that way. It was not meant to, and thinking about it again, I see nothing condescending in assuming, based on your statement, that you are not

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 11:40:29AM +0200, Nicolas George wrote: > Le quintidi 25 germinal, an CCXXV, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit : > > You keep repeating this misconception. "Could be" "nobody would". By your > > logic, Apache and PostgreSQL (among many

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

Le quintidi 25 germinal, an CCXXV, Joel Rees a écrit : > > Summary: Linux has a new system call to allow process to register as > > adopters for orphan processes. > Ick. I hope they don't register directly with pid1. I am sorry, but that does not even make sense. > Or you could have pid1 monitor

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

Le quintidi 25 germinal, an CCXXV, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit : > You keep repeating this misconception. "Could be" "nobody would". By your > logic, Apache and PostgreSQL (among many following this model) wouldn't > work. They do. Pretty reliably, at that. I am sorry, but you are mistaken here,

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 11:20:02PM +0200, Nicolas George wrote: [...] > Yet, PID 1 is still the only immortal process, unless you have another > new mutant power to produce, and that property is needed to have a > reliable monitoring system.

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 6:20 AM, Nicolas George wrote: > Le quartidi 24 germinal, an CCXXV, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard a écrit : >> Nicolas George: >> > The process with PID one is the only immortal process on the system, and >> > adopts all orphan processes. > >> Wrong. Indeed,

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

Le quartidi 24 germinal, an CCXXV, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard a écrit : > Nicolas George: > > The process with PID one is the only immortal process on the system, and > > adopts all orphan processes. > Wrong. Indeed, it was the systemd people who drove the making it wrong. I have no idea what

Systemd services (was Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...)

Greg Wooledge: > > Suppose you want to start DJB's daemontools from a locally created systemd > unit/service. Here's a file that will do that: > ... albeit poorly. If one wants to run daemontools under systemd, svscanboot is not the way; svscanboot is a thing of the past

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

Nicolas George: > The process with PID one is the only immortal process on the system, and > adopts all orphan processes. Wrong. Indeed, it was the systemd people who drove the making it wrong. * https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/177361/5132

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 06:44:08PM +0300, Reco wrote: > Describing Fedora as 'community-driven' distribution is a gross > oversimplification. It's not that I disagree with initial assessment - > they don't sell you Debian stable like Red Hat does for RHEL. Red Hat employees do have significant

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 10:02:54PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 09:09:45AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote: > > Fedora is the development and test bed for RHEL much as Debian > > Testing is for Stable. > > That's not a perfect analogy by any means: Fedora is used as a test

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

> On Apr 13, 2017, at 5:23 AM, GiaThnYgeia wrote: > > Catherine Gramze: >> /snip... > > I did not ask for advice on what to do, we are discussing the freedom of > choice, remember? Yes, your freedom of choice to attempt to do something ridiculous. Making choices

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

Catherine Gramze: > /snip... I did not ask for advice on what to do, we are discussing the freedom of choice, remember? > Debian is not in the business of catering to the special needs of conspiracy > theorists, > but of looking to a technologically developing and progressing future and >

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

Joel Rees: > kAt, write a novel. > > My dad used to tell me, if I wanted to change things, I'd have to > change them from the inside. It's a poor expression of the principle > because you can't get "inside" far enough without X, Y, or Z, and they > all make it very difficult to change things

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 10:42:00PM +, GiaThnYgeia wrote: > I have been doing some research, I have also managed to break and > restore a few systems trying to run them without systemd. Possibly a > harder task than I thought it might be. Possibly unnecessarily complex, > I don't know. > But

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 21:11:30 -0500 David Wright wrote: > > BTW I was surprised not to see mention of the Ken Thompson hack > in what I snipped. > Old stuff. I'd expect every significant compiler on the planet to have been compromised by one government or another

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On 04/12/2017 06:42 PM, GiaThnYgeia wrote: Why don't you try ubuntu and tell us what it is like. Do I strike you like a person needing to hold hands with anyone? From your posts, yes. VERY much so. -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: "There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

> On Apr 12, 2017, at 9:05 PM, GiaThnYgeia wrote: > > The "choice" of going cheap on ancient hardware is that you all knowing > expert "technical" but not "political" folk are really clueless of what > those non-free eight-core gadgets you port your code on contain.

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Thu 13 Apr 2017 at 01:05:00 (+), GiaThnYgeia wrote: [big snip] > After all, to say "I am a technical guy not a political one" is a very > politically loaded statement. Dr Strangelove was a technical guy, not > political at all. It is those types you have to watch out for. You've quoted

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

kAt, write a novel. Sure, some of the people here still don't realize just how bad things are, but there are limits to what individuals and even groups do. My dad used to tell me, if I wanted to change things, I'd have to change them from the inside. It's a poor expression of the principle

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

Maybe I started my explaining at the wrong end of the thread and I get reactions on a personal level about what I am and whether I have the right or reason to complaint. So I'll start from scratch. Let's say we have market players A B and C whose primary clients are government agencies that have

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Wednesday 12 April 2017 23:42:00 GiaThnYgeia wrote: >  Do I strike you > like a person needing to hold hands with anyone? Very much so. Lisi

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 6:17 PM, GiaThnYgeia wrote: > > > Do you folk mean to tell me that at this point Debian does not have the > power to influence industry by selecting to support only hardware with > open/free firmware? No, Debian does not have that power.

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

Jonathan Dowland: > On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 04:40:00PM +, GiaThnYgeia wrote: >> As for the other post you commented on with the same attitude I would >> have to say that getting technical in comparing sysv with competing >> technologies does not answer the political part of the decision

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Wed 12 Apr 2017 at 22:24:16 (+0200), Mart van de Wege wrote: > David Wright writes: > > > On Mon 10 Apr 2017 at 21:21:00 (+), GiaThnYgeia wrote: > >> For a second month under freeze not much > >> development can take place in unstable, as it is really tomorrow's

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

Ric Moore: > On 04/12/2017 12:40 PM, GiaThnYgeia wrote: >> David Wright: Has Debian always been this crazy and am I so new to this madness? >>> >>> If you don't like it, you're free to look elsewhere for a distribution >>> that better suits you. >> >> Are you mr.Debian? Under what authority

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Wednesday 12 April 2017 20:42:37 David Wright wrote: > > If you like to contribute to my lack of understanding and possibly > > unsubstantiated criticism, help me understand the hierarchy.  Who, and > > how are they are selected, make the decisions and how do they relate to > > those that do

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On 04/12/2017 04:27 PM, Mart van de Wege wrote: Here's a data point: having dealt with the vagaries and shortcomings of SysV init professionally, I *like* systemd, even if it has a few warts. Mart I am going out on a limb here, but here goes, as I put on my "Amazing Kreskin predicts" hat.

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 04:40:00PM +, GiaThnYgeia wrote: > As for the other post you commented on with the same attitude I would > have to say that getting technical in comparing sysv with competing > technologies does not answer the political part of the decision making. > It seems as this

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 09:09:45AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote: > Fedora is the development and test bed for RHEL much as Debian > Testing is for Stable. That's not a perfect analogy by any means: Fedora is used as a test bed for technology that later ends up in RHEL, yes, but that's the end of

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On 04/12/2017 12:40 PM, GiaThnYgeia wrote: David Wright: Has Debian always been this crazy and am I so new to this madness? If you don't like it, you're free to look elsewhere for a distribution that better suits you. Are you mr.Debian? Under what authority are you telling me to either

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

GiaThnYgeia writes: > Am I wrong? You have at least nothing but opinion supporting the assertion that you are right. So the jury is out on that one. > I don't hear newbies single machine users having much of an issue with > systemd, but people whose work for many

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

David Wright writes: > On Mon 10 Apr 2017 at 21:21:00 (+), GiaThnYgeia wrote: >> For a second month under freeze not much >> development can take place in unstable, as it is really tomorrow's >> testing. > > What do you mean? Sid (unstable) is always sid. It doesn't

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Wed 12 Apr 2017 at 16:40:00 (+), GiaThnYgeia wrote: > David Wright: > >> Has Debian always been this crazy and am I so new to this madness? > > > > If you don't like it, you're free to look elsewhere for a distribution > > that better suits you. > > Are you mr.Debian? Under what

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

David Wright: >> Has Debian always been this crazy and am I so new to this madness? > > If you don't like it, you're free to look elsewhere for a distribution > that better suits you. Are you mr.Debian? Under what authority are you telling me to either shut up or leave? What makes you more

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 10:36:33 +0100 Jonathan Dowland wrote: > On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 11:07:13PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote: > > Perhaps instead of "..more suited," it should have been "intended" > > for servers. After all, wasn't systemd adopted first for RHEL whose > > market

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Tue 11 Apr 2017 at 14:24:00 (+), GiaThnYgeia wrote: > xxx: > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 6:21 AM, GiaThnYgeia > >> Has Debian always been this crazy and am I so new to this madness? > > > > Moving the goalposts always generates a bit of madness. Whether this > > time is turning out more so

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Mon 10 Apr 2017 at 21:21:00 (+), GiaThnYgeia wrote: > Please excuse the intrusion, on another thread Felix Miata says: > Re: Old 32bit PC 650kRam less VidMem 1024x768 will not run on Stretch ok > on Jessie > > > Debian-user is a user support forum, not a developer forum: > > For bug fixes

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 11:07:13PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote: > Perhaps instead of "..more suited," it should have been "intended" for > servers. After all, wasn't systemd adopted first for RHEL whose > market is mainly servers? No, it wasn't. It was in Fedora before RHEL. -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On 9 April 2017 at 21:15, Patrick Bartek wrote: > On Sun, 9 Apr 2017 16:25:57 +0100 Michael Fothergill > wrote: > > > On 7 April 2017 at 19:27, David Niklas wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 12:30:11 -0700 > > > Patrick

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On 04/11/2017 08:16 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Tuesday 11 April 2017 13:54:50 Richard Owlett wrote: 'They' never told us, owners of single user laptops, why we should chose it. Your quoting lost important context ;< You quoted only one sentence (as Ric did) of my post of April 8. But you link

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

xxx: > On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 6:21 AM, GiaThnYgeia >> Has Debian always been this crazy and am I so new to this madness? > > Moving the goalposts always generates a bit of madness. Whether this > time is turning out more so than previous times I'll leave for others > to comment on. Moving the

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Tuesday 11 April 2017 13:54:50 Richard Owlett wrote: > >> 'They' never told us, owners of single user laptops, why we should chose > >> it. Because they don't care whether you chose it or not? Debian offers alternatives, but had to chose a default. Other distros have made their choice.

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On 04/10/2017 07:59 PM, Ric Moore wrote: On 04/08/2017 01:06 AM, Richard Owlett wrote: 'They' never told us, owners of single user laptops, why we should chose it. Simple, as I see it, single user laptop support doesn't pay the bills. Neither do Desktops. Ubuntu found that one out, for all

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 10:48 AM, somebody wrote, off list: (I'm not sure why you sent it off-list, but I want to respond on-list. > On 04/10/2017 08:08 PM, Joel Rees wrote: > >> What we needed was probably for a group like Canonical to have funded >> development of several alternative services

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On 4/10/17 9:32 PM, Ric Moore wrote: On 04/10/2017 09:37 AM, Greg Wooledge wrote: Does that mean systemd is the ideal replacement? No. Systemd has these overreaching tendrils in places it's got no business sticking tendrils. Why does it have its own ntp daemon? Why does it implement file

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On 04/10/2017 09:37 AM, Greg Wooledge wrote: Does that mean systemd is the ideal replacement? No. Systemd has these overreaching tendrils in places it's got no business sticking tendrils. Why does it have its own ntp daemon? Why does it implement file system automount behavior? These things

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On 04/08/2017 01:06 AM, Richard Owlett wrote: 'They' never told us, owners of single user laptops, why we should chose it. Simple, as I see it, single user laptop support doesn't pay the bills. Neither do Desktops. Ubuntu found that one out, for all of their user friendly features. When Red

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 11:32 PM, Nicolas George wrote: > Le primidi 21 germinal, an CCXXV, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit : >> > Your other arguments make sense, but sorry, this one does not. The >> > process with PID one is the only immortal process on the system, and >> > adopts all

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 11:13 PM, Nicolas George wrote: > Le primidi 21 germinal, an CCXXV, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit : >> SysV init is broken because it has no process monitoring? No. >> Process monitoring isn't in its scope. > > Your other arguments make sense, but sorry, this

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 10:37 PM, Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 08:41:28AM +0100, Joe wrote: >> Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I run sid and see things come and >> go. Didn't we have this: >> >> https://wiki.debian.org/LSBInitScripts >> >>long

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

GiaThnYgeia wrote: > Has Debian always been this crazy and am I so new to this madness? TRUE

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

Please excuse the intrusion, on another thread Felix Miata says: Re: Old 32bit PC 650kRam less VidMem 1024x768 will not run on Stretch ok on Jessie > Debian-user is a user support forum, not a developer forum: > For bug fixes and policy modifications debian-user is the wrong place > for more than

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 04:32:51PM +0200, Nicolas George wrote: > Le primidi 21 germinal, an CCXXV, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit : > > > Your other arguments make sense, but sorry, this one does not. The > > > process with PID one is the only immortal

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

Le primidi 21 germinal, an CCXXV, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit : > > Your other arguments make sense, but sorry, this one does not. The > > process with PID one is the only immortal process on the system, and > > adopts all orphan processes. For that reason, any kind of process > > monitoring, if it

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 04:13:48PM +0200, Nicolas George wrote: > Le primidi 21 germinal, an CCXXV, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit : > > SysV init is broken because it has no process monitoring? No. > > Process monitoring isn't in its scope. > > Your other

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On 4/10/17 2:07 AM, Patrick Bartek wrote: On Sun, 9 Apr 2017 17:39:50 -0400 Miles Fidelman wrote: On 4/9/17 4:15 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: After much reading, I consider systemd more suited to large, busy servers than a desktop box or notebook with just one

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

Le primidi 21 germinal, an CCXXV, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit : > SysV init is broken because it has no process monitoring? No. > Process monitoring isn't in its scope. Your other arguments make sense, but sorry, this one does not. The process with PID one is the only immortal process on the system,

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 09:37:00AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 08:41:28AM +0100, Joe wrote: > > Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I run sid and see things come and > > go. Didn't we have this: > > > >

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 08:41:28AM +0100, Joe wrote: > Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I run sid and see things come and > go. Didn't we have this: > > https://wiki.debian.org/LSBInitScripts > >long before systemd? This and start-stop-daemon and probably a few other things are all

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 11:07:13PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote: > On Sun, 9 Apr 2017 17:39:50 -0400 Miles Fidelman > wrote: > > > On 4/9/17 4:15 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: > > > > > After much reading, I consider systemd

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Sun, 9 Apr 2017 17:39:50 -0400 Miles Fidelman wrote: > On 4/9/17 4:15 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: > > > After much reading, I consider systemd more suited to large, busy > > servers than a desktop box or notebook with just one user. It's > > like being forced to

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Sunday 09 April 2017 22:39:50 Miles Fidelman wrote: > On 4/9/17 4:15 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: > > After much reading, I consider systemd more suited to large, busy > > servers than a desktop box or notebook with just one user. It's > > like being forced to use a huge tractor-trailer rig with

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On 4/9/17 4:15 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: After much reading, I consider systemd more suited to large, busy servers than a desktop box or notebook with just one user. It's like being forced to use a huge tractor-trailer rig with lots of chrome and lights and 24 gears when a simple mini-van will

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Sun, 9 Apr 2017 16:25:57 +0100 Michael Fothergill wrote: > On 7 April 2017 at 19:27, David Niklas wrote: > > > On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 12:30:11 -0700 > > Patrick Bartek wrote: > > > The Linux mantra has always been "choice,"

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Sun, Apr 9, 2017 at 7:20 PM, wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 08:20:16AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote: > > [...] > >> There is no plus to a restricted declaration syntax except the walls >> between the controlling service and the

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On 7 April 2017 at 19:27, David Niklas wrote: > On Mon, 13 Mar 2017 12:30:11 -0700 > Patrick Bartek wrote: > > The Linux mantra has always been "choice," plethoras of choices. So why > > at install time, is there no choice for the init system? You get what

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 08:20:16AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote: [...] > There is no plus to a restricted declaration syntax except the walls > between the controlling service and the controlled services. In other > words, the minus of separation is the

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Sun, 9 Apr 2017 08:20:16 +0900 Joel Rees wrote: > On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 4:15 PM, wrote: > > [...] > > What systemd brings (mainly[1]) to the table is the decoupling of > > different "parts" of init: just imagine you have one service (let's > > say a

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 4:15 PM, wrote: > [...] > What systemd brings (mainly[1]) to the table is the decoupling of > different "parts" of init: just imagine you have one service (let's > say a web server) which depends on some other thing (say a file > system being present via

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sat, Apr 08, 2017 at 11:56:10AM +0200, Nicolas George wrote: > Le nonidi 19 germinal, an CCXXV, Martin Read a écrit : > > If a systemd unit for a particular service needs the attention of an expert > > in order to be robust, the SysV-style RC

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sat, Apr 08, 2017 at 11:07:32AM +0200, Nicolas George wrote: > Le nonidi 19 germinal, an CCXXV, to...@tuxteam.de a écrit : > > So we always had multi-user: the trend is rather the other way: > > since everyone has his/her own gadget, complex things

Re: If Linux Is About Choice, Why Then ...

writes: > > What systemd brings (mainly[1]) to the table is the decoupling of > different "parts" of init: just imagine you have one service (let's > say a web server) which depends on some other thing (say a file > system being present via ummm... NFS, but it could be a RAID

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