Re: How to configure the network ethernet?

[Reco]

Hi.

Please do not top-post.

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 04:50:18PM -0600, William Torrez Corea wrote:
> Ready, i try to follow the instructions but,
> For example with the command for disable the autonegotiation:
> 
> sudo ethtool -A enp7s0 autoneg off
> 
> I get the following error:
> *Cannot get device pause settings: Operation not supported*

You cannot change L2 settings on a interface that's UP. You need to
bring it down first.
I.e.

sudo ip l s dev enp7s0 down
sudo ethtool -A enp7s0 autoneg off
sudo ip l s dev enp7s0 up

And then there's this:

>> Link detected: yes

Your previous e-mail mentioned that interface in question has NO-CARRIER
flag. This result contradicts it.

So, which is which?

Reco

Re: A real bounce between GMX and bendel.debian.org

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

On 10/10/2021 17:18, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

Hi,

although i seem not to be worth to be targeted by our bounce assassin,
my mail provider and bendel.debian.org are at odds enough to produce
a real bounce message, which then causes a warning mail from
listmas...@lists.debian.org .

I am trying to make sense out of the given bounce report

   https://lists.debian.org/bounces/79gUBBa56gHKY3wtHzNKdg

It is hard to distinguish the hearsay by bendel.debian.org from the
message parts which come from my provider's server mx00.emig.gmx.net.
Especially i wonder from where bendel takes the association to my
mail address (and which mentionings show its conclusions about my
address).

Whatever, the reason for the bounce is that GMX accuses debian-user
of not meeting its requirements
   https://www.gmx.net/mail/senderguidelines
All points there look like they are not volatile problems but rather
persistent ones. But listmas...@lists.debian.org wrote i had

  1 bounce out of 68 mails in one day (1%, kick-score is 80%)

So why did the other 67 succeed ?


That seems unrelated to the OVH bounces.

My mailserver bounced the same email (and I got a warning like that). 
Since I run my own mailserver, and can look at the logs and see exactly 
why it has been rejected, and here's what I got:


2021-10-10 16:07:37 1mZeAb-0005Mc-Hn H=bendel.debian.org 
[2001:41b8:202:deb:216:36ff:fe40:4002] 
X=TLS1.3:ECDHE_SECP256R1__RSA_PSS_RSAE_SHA256__AES_256_GCM:256 CV=no 
F= 
rejected after DATA: header syntax (malformed address: >\n may not 
follow Pierre-Elliott =?utf-8?Q?B=C3=A9cue?= : failing 
address in "From:" header is: Pierre-Elliott =?utf-8?Q?B=C3=A9cue?= 
>): malformed address: >\n may not follow Pierre-Elliott 
=?utf-8?Q?B=C3=A9cue?= : failing address in "From:" 
header is: Pierre-Elliott =?utf-8?Q?B=C3=A9cue?= >


And this is From header:

From: Pierre-Elliott =?utf-8?Q?B=C3=A9cue?= >

(There does seem to be an extra > in there.)


In this case, my server bounced a mail, and so the listserver is correct 
in sending me that notification. And since it was just one email, I did 
not get unsubscribed.


However, perhaps the listserver should have not accepted that email with 
the (possibly) invalid From header in the first place.

Re: First time WINE user looking for tutorial

[Tom Dial]

On 10/10/21 04:14, Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 10/09/2021 10:24 AM, Patrick Bartek wrote:
>> On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 09:40:21 -0500
>> Richard Owlett  wrote:

(Omitted)

> 
> 
>>
>> Just be forewarned, WINE is not the catchall solution to running
>> Windows apps: The more involved codewise the program is like games or
>> Photoshop, the more problems you'll have.
> 
> For context, I've been providing informal support to a local couple for
> decades. He is a retired pastor, now a missionary. They need a new
> computer and as part of my support, I'll be purchasing a replacement. As
> I've not used Windows since WinXP and they are pure Windows users I
> planned to dual boot Windows and Debian. Debian primarily for its
> maintenance tools. I hope WINE will run enough of their "must have" apps
> that I can use that as a selling point to move from Windows to Linux.
> 
>> In those cases, just run Windows in a virtual machine which is what I do
>> for ALL Windows apps I need. Less or virtually no gotchas!
> 
> On my personal machines I would have no motivation to install a VM.
> However, I'll investigate the pros/cons of having their machine run a VM
> in which I would run Debian as a demo.
> 

Full disclosure: I have not run WINE for 20 years or more, and assume
without argument that it is much improved over what it was then. I run
VMs regularly under Linux (using KVM), but the current ones are either
Linux or FreeBSD; I haven't done a Windows VM for years.

That said, it is not the right solution for the problem you describe.
And with due respect to Patrick, I do not think running windows in a
(presumably) Linux VM is a good solution either.

I have supported my wife's various computers for about 25 years under an
oral service agreement providing that I will install software  as
requested, maintain the OS and installed software regularly, analyze and
correct software and hardware problems as necessary, and replace the
hardware as appropriate. That, and no more, under threat of Serious
Issues. That has brought the suffering of Windows 95, now long in the
past, and over time reinforced the validity of the first rule I was
given as a novice mainframe system programmer 30 years ago: "We install
vanilla."

Running an emulator like WINE, or Windows in a Linux (?) VM, would
likely lead to operational issues arising from interfaces that are not
overly well documented and therefore hard to analyze. Resolution often
would have to based on web search results of uncertain accuracy and
reliability, and consequent false starts and customer dissatisfaction.
Either would cause you excessive work and likely enough bring
unhappiness to both you and those you aim to assist.

I recommend you select, with your users' concurrence, a suitable factory
refurbished business-grade laptop[1] from a major manufacturer. I have
used HP, but Dell, Lenovo, and maybe others probably have similar
programs. Refurbished business laptops are a bit costlier than new
consumer laptops with comparable performance, but they also are built to
a higher standard of reliability and come with significantly less
preloaded crapware. They also (HP experience here) may have useful built
in diagnostic tools and support software/firmware maintenance support,
and they come with a full new unit warranty; in my experience, any
defects are minor and cosmetic.

For the use case you describe, I also recommend a service agreement, if
available, that provides pick up and delivery service. The HP ones
(presently $137 for three year coverage) are fairly inexpensive. While
they are unlikely to be used, I consider them worthwhile unless there is
a serious cost constraint).

Such equipment will come with preinstalled and configured Windows, and
current Microsoft maintenance support is quite good and relatively
trouble free. And when problems do arise, Microsoft or manufacturer
support is likely to be usable to resolve it; they certainly will be as
good as random WWW support for a home-brew OS and software setup.

Linux tools are undeniable useful in some cases, but will rarely be
necessary for a vanilla or nearly vanilla Windows setup. For those
instances where they are, it always is nice to have a bootable CD, DVD,
or USB key with Linux and a set of common tools on it. I generally use a
recent Debian DVD #1 for this and install any missing tools as necessary
once it is booted and running.

Regards
Tom Dial

[1] Manufacturers also will offer refurbished business desktop or
workstation equipment. I like laptops not only for their portability,
but because, having only one piece, they simpler to deal with.

> Are there good FOSS or low cost VMs for Windows machines?
> 
> Thanks

Re: mail service

[deloptes]

fxkl47BF wrote:

> no offense taken
> i use expect_mkpasswd to generate passwords
> decades ago i got tired of trying to come up with user names
> i just use expect_mkpasswd to make a short unique name
> today everyone is trying to glean all of the personal info they can
> i try not give out any more than is necessary

but we are still human and at least I prefer seeing a human like name and
not some scribles, but ofcourse it is your choice how you appear in the
public.

-- 
FCD6 3719 0FFB F1BF 38EA 4727 5348 5F1F DCFE BCB0

Re: How to configure the network ethernet?

[William Torrez Corea]

Ready, i try to follow the instructions but,

For example with the command for disable the autonegotiation:

sudo ethtool -A enp7s0 autoneg off
>

I get the following error:

*Cannot get device pause settings: Operation not supported*

*standard information about device*

Settings for enp7s0:
> Supported ports: [ TP AUI BNC MII FIBRE ]
> Supported link modes:   10baseT/Half 10baseT/Full
>100baseT/Half 100baseT/Full
> Supported pause frame use: Symmetric Receive-only
> Supports auto-negotiation: Yes
> Supported FEC modes: Not reported
> Advertised link modes:  10baseT/Half 10baseT/Full
>100baseT/Half 100baseT/Full
> Advertised pause frame use: Symmetric Receive-only
> Advertised auto-negotiation: Yes
> Advertised FEC modes: Not reported
> Link partner advertised link modes:  10baseT/Half 10baseT/Full
> 100baseT/Half 100baseT/Full
> Link partner advertised pause frame use: Symmetric Receive-only
> Link partner advertised auto-negotiation: Yes
> Link partner advertised FEC modes: Not reported
> Speed: 100Mb/s
> Duplex: Full
> Port: MII
> PHYAD: 0
> Transceiver: internal
> Auto-negotiation: on
> Supports Wake-on: pumbg
> Wake-on: g
> Current message level: 0x0033 (51)
>   drv probe ifdown ifup
> Link detected: yes
>

On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 12:20 AM Reco  wrote:

> The usual troubleshooting steps here are:
>
> 1) Replace the Ethernet cable.
> 2) Install ethtool, use it to disable autonegotiation, and try setting
> the speed and duplex by hand.
>
> Failing that, replacing network card produced by Dell with something more
> proper is always an option.
>
> Reco
>
>

-- 

With kindest regards, William.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄

Re: First time WINE user looking for tutorial

[Russell L. Harris]

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 02:05:20PM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:

I use VirtualBox for my VM needs, but why would you need to: Google
Earth has versions that run natively on Windows, OSX and Linux or you
can run it in most any web browsers -- https://earth.google.com/ --
regardless of OS.


It has been several years since I had need for Earth.  Thanks for the
update.

RLH

Re: First time WINE user looking for tutorial

[Patrick Bartek]

On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 05:14:36 -0500
Richard Owlett  wrote:

> On 10/09/2021 10:24 AM, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 09:40:21 -0500
> > Richard Owlett  wrote:
> >   
> >> [snip]
> 
> > 
> > Just be forewarned, WINE is not the catchall solution to running
> > Windows apps: The more involved codewise the program is like games
> > or Photoshop, the more problems you'll have.  
> 
> For context, I've been providing informal support to a local couple
> for decades. He is a retired pastor, now a missionary. They need a
> new computer and as part of my support, I'll be purchasing a
> replacement. As I've not used Windows since WinXP and they are pure
> Windows users I planned to dual boot Windows and Debian. Debian
> primarily for its maintenance tools. I hope WINE will run enough of
> their "must have" apps that I can use that as a selling point to move
> from Windows to Linux.

If all they've ever used is Windows, leave it at that. Don't attempt
to switch them to Linux. It will be more trouble than it's worth. Get
them a laptop with Windows, clean the preinstalled and CPU
cycles eating background crap off of it, bring it up-to-date, and you're
done. 


> > In those cases, just run Windows in a virtual machine which is what
> > I do for ALL Windows apps I need. Less or virtually no gotchas!  
> 
> On my personal machines I would have no motivation to install a VM. 
> However, I'll investigate the pros/cons of having their machine run a
> VM in which I would run Debian as a demo.

Unless they really NEED Debian or Linux, don't bother.

If you want to demo Linux just get one of the many "live" versions to
boot the system.  Then they can play with it without installing.  And
it won't do anything to their existing Windows install.

> Are there good FOSS or low cost VMs for Windows machines?

Windows has it's own VM.  Can't remember its name, but I'd recommend
VirtualBox instead -- https://www.virtualbox.org/ .  It's free and has
versions that run on Linux or Windows, among others.

B

Re: Then it happened to me...

[Nicholas Geovanis]

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 6:30 AM Brad Rogers  wrote:

> On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 11:41:07 +0100
> piorunz  wrote:
>
> Hello piorunz,
>
> >I took it from Wikipedia:
>
> Taking stuff from a single wikipedia article without context or relevant
> research is rarely a good idea.
>

Ugg. You're going to make me do the Old Geezer shtick again:

I was using online fora on the U of Illinois' Plato system in 1977. But
that was the =2nd= generation of them. They connected with Plato systems
across the country, the whole hemisphere. IIRC long distance was SDLC which
IBM also used for long distance transport. Plato hardware was Control Data.

But I was IRC-like chatting in real-time with nerds in Germany using IBM
mainframes in 1982.
:-D BEFORE IBM gave you the arch to rule them all and in the darkness bind
you :-D

Ok, Intel helped..



> --
>  Regards  _
>  / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
> / _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
> Everything in life should be free, except the bits that belong to me
> Selfish Rubbish - Public Image Ltd
>

Re: Then it happened to me...

[The Wanderer]

On 2021-10-10 at 17:27, Nate Bargmann wrote:

> Years back there was an emailed newsletter titled Debian Weekly
> News. At some point the author lost motivation as I recall and the
> newsletter effectively ceased.  Keep in mind that Debian is an
> organization that depends on volunteer effort to accomplish its
> goals.  I think you have identified an area where you can help, i.e.
> the timely dissemination of project news.

This actually still exists; it's just been renamed, to reflect the fact
that it wasn't being mailed out on a weekly basis anymore (partly
because of lack of available person-power for the purpose, partly I
think because there wasn't actually always enough news available to
report that often).

It's currently called "Debian Project News". According to my archives,
the first issue with that name was mailed out on April 21st, 2008 (after
a nine-month gap from the previous issue of Debian Weekly News, on July
3rd, 2007). The latest issue was mailed out on August 28th, announcing
the end of DebConf 21. There have been well over 200 issues mailed out
over the course of that period.

See

https://www.debian.org/News/

and in particular (linked to from there)

https://lists.debian.org/debian-news/

for what there is of this.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Then it happened to me...

[piorunz]

On 10/10/2021 22:27, Nate Bargmann wrote:

Years back there was an emailed newsletter titled Debian Weekly News.
At some point the author lost motivation as I recall and the newsletter
effectively ceased.


Oh that's sad


Keep in mind that Debian is an organization that
depends on volunteer effort to accomplish its goals.  I think you have
identified an area where you can help, i.e. the timely dissemination of
project news.


Yes I am aware of that, but I am curious why isn't any money spent on
that. To hire someone to spend two hours per week summarising news on
the list and post them? My English grammar is not that perfect to the
point where I can write to international audience, I a not a developer
either, so I wouldn't even understand everything what is going on.

That's why I do what I can - report bugs where I see them and send
donations to Debian every year. I'm just puzzled how many lists I have
subscribed to and I still miss all the news.

--
With kindest regards, Piotr.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄

Re: Then it happened to me...

[Nate Bargmann]

Years back there was an emailed newsletter titled Debian Weekly News.
At some point the author lost motivation as I recall and the newsletter
effectively ceased.  Keep in mind that Debian is an organization that
depends on volunteer effort to accomplish its goals.  I think you have
identified an area where you can help, i.e. the timely dissemination of
project news.

- Nate

-- 
"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."
Web: https://www.n0nb.us
Projects: https://github.com/N0NB
GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819



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Re: Then it happened to me...

[piorunz]

On 10/10/2021 19:14, Brian wrote:

On Sun 10 Oct 2021 at 18:45:12 +0100, piorunz wrote:

[...]


I just wish Debian maintains online forums so people have a choice?
AFAIK https://forums.debian.net/ is not official, not long time ago they
didn't even had https. Now they do, but their main page debian.net still
incorrectly redirects to debian.org via http, not https. IDK who is the
operator but doesn't sound professional.


Users may be interested in

   https://bits.debian.org/2021/08/debianuserforums.html

There are at least three people there to express concerns to.


Lol So Debian has "official" forum after all! As they say "The
server instance is now running directly within Debian's infrastructure."

So this posting from August has been announced NOWHERE on Debian, from
my perspective. I am subscribed to ALL relevant Debian e-mail lists:
debian-announce, debian-news, debian-release, debian-security,
debian-security announce, debian-stable announce, debian-user. And
NOTHING. Fact of forum re-launch under Debian umbrella and Debian
project care, is not worthy debian-announce or debian-news. What is
going on?

And it's not first time.. This is laughable to the point, where
debian-news has announced CLOSING of DebConf21 recently, but didn't
announced it's schedule and opening!!! So hundreds of users, including
me, has missed it, despite being subscribed to everything what I think
to be relevant to Debian, I still don't get full picture.
Debian really has a problem with marketing and coherence.

--
With kindest regards, Piotr.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄

Re: First time WINE user looking for tutorial

[Patrick Bartek]

On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 03:28:42 +
"Russell L. Harris"  wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 09, 2021 at 08:24:38AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> >On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 09:40:21 -0500
> >Richard Owlett  wrote:  
> 
> >Just be forewarned, WINE is not the catchall solution to running
> >Windows apps: The more involved codewise the program is like games or
> >Photoshop, the more problems you'll have. In those cases, just run
> >Windows in a virtual machine which is what I do for ALL Windows apps
> >I need. Less or virtually no gotchas!  
> 
> Richard, Can you recommend a virtual machine for Debian which can run
> Google Earth?
> 
> 

Richard didn't write that, I did -- Patrick.

I use VirtualBox for my VM needs, but why would you need to: Google
Earth has versions that run natively on Windows, OSX and Linux or you
can run it in most any web browsers -- https://earth.google.com/ --
regardless of OS.

B 

Re: remove stop un

[fxkl47BF]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 2:49 PM, J B Martin  
wrote:

> On 10/10/2021 3:46 PM, fxkl47BF wrote:
>
> > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> >
> > On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 1:46 PM, Brian a...@cityscape.co.uk wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun 10 Oct 2021 at 17:18:13 +, fxkl47BF wrote:
> > >
> > > > just one more thing
> > > >
> > > > posteo was mentioned as an alternative
> > > >
> > > > i have a posteo account i will drop in a few months
> > > >
> > > > their spam policy is to bounce it back to the sender
> > > >
> > > > the account own has no say
> > > >
> > > > You have a link to a statement of this policy?
> > >
> > > Brian.
> > >
> > > i do not
> > >
> > > only a personal email from supp...@posteo.de
>
> Joseph Bryant Martin
>
> USA 804 223-0325
>
> Info Voice
>
> 804 334-4309


i don't know if and/or how to respond to this

Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: mail service

[Brian]

On Sun 10 Oct 2021 at 19:46:39 +, fxkl47BF wrote:

[Mangled quoted text deleted]

> > You have a link to a statement of this policy?
> >
> > -
> >
> > Brian.
> 
> i do not
> only a personal email from supp...@posteo.de

I tend to take such mails from an ISP's front-line support with a pinch
of salt and not as gospel.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Then it happened to me...

[piorunz]

Now my turn. Just received a warning.

This is deeply broken.

"Dear subscriber,

We've encountered some problems while sending listmail to your
emailaddress pior...@gmx.com.

In the last seven days we've seen bounces for the following list:
* debian-user
1 bounce out of 68 mails in one day (1%, kick-score is 80%)
(https://lists.debian.org/bounces/jIDIoxeNb9XRGvl0AsCQhQ)

(The link above points to a copy of the latest bounce and will be valid
for seven days.)

If the bounce-rate passes the kick-score, our bounce-detection will
forcibly remove your subscription."

--
With kindest regards, Piotr.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄

Re: A real bounce between GMX and bendel.debian.org

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

complaining towards our saboteur did the trick.

Now i got a mail
  You have been removed from the list
quoting text from my previous mail
  Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 22:18:38 +0200
  Message-Id: <21974365322658312...@scdbackup.webframe.org>
and having
  Subject: **stop**
Not much more to learn from that message. It looks like the one reported
by Greg Wooledge when this first occured.

--
I Cc listmas...@lists.debian.org to ask:

Does the list server really have to be that vulnerable ?

Was a mail sent to me saying:
  "This is a test mailing, to check if the address ...
   causes bounces, tries to challenge-response or autoresponds
   back to Mailinglists, or Mailinglist-Senders."
and did it bounce ?

What are those rare problems between the list servers and GMX:
>  : host mx00.emig.gmx.net[212.227.15.9] said:
>  554-Transaction failed 554-Reject due to policy restrictions.
>  554 For explanation visit
>  https://www.gmx.net/mail/senderguidelines?ip=82.195.75.100&c=hi
>  (in reply to end of DATA command)
which were mentioned in the warning about a real bounce ?
  https://lists.debian.org/bounces/79gUBBa56gHKY3wtHzNKdg

Please consider to disable the automatic unsubscription until the bounce
interpretation can stand the world out there.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

A real bounce between GMX and bendel.debian.org

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

although i seem not to be worth to be targeted by our bounce assassin,
my mail provider and bendel.debian.org are at odds enough to produce
a real bounce message, which then causes a warning mail from
listmas...@lists.debian.org .

I am trying to make sense out of the given bounce report

  https://lists.debian.org/bounces/79gUBBa56gHKY3wtHzNKdg

It is hard to distinguish the hearsay by bendel.debian.org from the
message parts which come from my provider's server mx00.emig.gmx.net.
Especially i wonder from where bendel takes the association to my
mail address (and which mentionings show its conclusions about my
address).

Whatever, the reason for the bounce is that GMX accuses debian-user
of not meeting its requirements
  https://www.gmx.net/mail/senderguidelines
All points there look like they are not volatile problems but rather
persistent ones. But listmas...@lists.debian.org wrote i had
>  1 bounce out of 68 mails in one day (1%, kick-score is 80%)
So why did the other 67 succeed ?


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: How can encrypt my messages sent to the forum?

[Greg Marks]

Dear Mr. Torrez,

I have a Web page discussing e-mail encryption, which I attempted to
write for non-specialists:

   https://gmarks.org/email_security.html

(I haven't had a chance to update it in a while, but I believe the
instructions remain valid.)

Best regards,
Greg Marks


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Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: mail service

[fxkl47BF]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 1:46 PM, Brian  wrote:

> On Sun 10 Oct 2021 at 17:18:13 +, fxkl47BF wrote:
>
> > just one more thing
> >
> > posteo was mentioned as an alternative
> >
> > i have a posteo account i will drop in a few months
> >
> > their spam policy is to bounce it back to the sender
> >
> > the account own has no say
>
> You have a link to a statement of this policy?
>
> -
>
> Brian.

i do not
only a personal email from supp...@posteo.de

Re: Then it happened to me...

[Bret Busby]

On 11/10/21 3:05 am, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:


piorunz  wrote on 10/10/2021 at 19:45:12+0200:


On 10/10/2021 17:13, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:


Hi Piotr,

No - it's a nuisance. In this instance, it's an isolated nuisance - one VPS 
host in OVH.net which may be misconfigured, accidentally
or purposefully. Listmasters are aware - several of us have contacted them. 
It's an annoyance (much as when old-style spammers used
to harvest email addresses to apparently send spam from): it will go away again.

Forums work for some people, they don't for others - people have very different 
styles. Email is fairly readily mirrored, very searchable,
compresses well and the mailing lists are threaded. I can find mailing list 
postings from 23 years ago fairly readily - I can't find
posts on some forums from three months ago. As ever: Your ideal solution may be 
 somebody else's hell (and vice versa) and people can argue
merits either way until they're blue in the face with no absolute conclusion.


Thanks for your input. Your post has merit. I agree with most of what
you said.

I just wish Debian maintains online forums so people have a choice?
AFAIK https://forums.debian.net/ is not official, not long time ago they
didn't even had https. Now they do, but their main page debian.net still
incorrectly redirects to debian.org via http, not https. IDK who is the
operator but doesn't sound professional.


Apart from needing people to maintain the service (and a dynamic website
requires someone, otherwise good luck to pass DSA's stamp), it would
probably split our community onto multiple media and make them probably
unable to talk in the long term.

I'm not sure it's a path we want to walk on.

Cheers,

--
PEB



Thank you for making that point.

It is an issue that I consider, whenever people on the mailing lists to 
which I subscribe, say "let's switch to a forum.".


Mailing lists are universally accessible, regardless of the software 
used, and, to split support communities, by imposing fora and such, is 
simply divisive, and, apart from being divisive, can cause issues to be 
raised separately, with the same solutions sought, and, needing to be 
provided, in each applicable medium, leading to much (the multiple sense 
of the word) duplication.


--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..

Re: Then it happened to me...

[Bret Busby]

On 11/10/21 3:19 am, Bret Busby wrote:

On 11/10/21 3:05 am, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:


piorunz  wrote on 10/10/2021 at 19:45:12+0200:


On 10/10/2021 17:13, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:


Hi Piotr,

No - it's a nuisance. In this instance, it's an isolated nuisance - 
one VPS host in OVH.net which may be misconfigured, accidentally
or purposefully. Listmasters are aware - several of us have 
contacted them. It's an annoyance (much as when old-style spammers used
to harvest email addresses to apparently send spam from): it will go 
away again.


Forums work for some people, they don't for others - people have 
very different styles. Email is fairly readily mirrored, very 
searchable,
compresses well and the mailing lists are threaded. I can find 
mailing list postings from 23 years ago fairly readily - I can't find
posts on some forums from three months ago. As ever: Your ideal 
solution may be  somebody else's hell (and vice versa) and people 
can argue
merits either way until they're blue in the face with no absolute 
conclusion.


Thanks for your input. Your post has merit. I agree with most of what
you said.

I just wish Debian maintains online forums so people have a choice?
AFAIK https://forums.debian.net/ is not official, not long time ago they
didn't even had https. Now they do, but their main page debian.net still
incorrectly redirects to debian.org via http, not https. IDK who is the
operator but doesn't sound professional.


Apart from needing people to maintain the service (and a dynamic website
requires someone, otherwise good luck to pass DSA's stamp), it would
probably split our community onto multiple media and make them probably
unable to talk in the long term.

I'm not sure it's a path we want to walk on.

Cheers,

--
PEB



Thank you for making that point.

It is an issue that I consider, whenever people on the mailing lists to 
which I subscribe, say "let's switch to a forum.".


Mailing lists are universally accessible, regardless of the software 
used, and, to split support communities, by imposing fora and such, is 
simply divisive, and, apart from being divisive, can cause issues to be 
raised separately, with the same solutions sought, and, needing to be 
provided, in each applicable medium, leading to much (the multiple sense 
of the word) duplication.




I am completely unsure, but, it occurred to me, after sending the 
message above, that, perhaps, the multiple sense of the word 
duplication, may be multiplication, which, if that is correct, is not 
the usual usage of the word multiplication.


--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..

Re: Then it happened to me...

[Pierre-Elliott Bécue]

piorunz  wrote on 10/10/2021 at 19:45:12+0200:

> On 10/10/2021 17:13, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
>
>> Hi Piotr,
>>
>> No - it's a nuisance. In this instance, it's an isolated nuisance - one VPS 
>> host in OVH.net which may be misconfigured, accidentally
>> or purposefully. Listmasters are aware - several of us have contacted them. 
>> It's an annoyance (much as when old-style spammers used
>> to harvest email addresses to apparently send spam from): it will go away 
>> again.
>>
>> Forums work for some people, they don't for others - people have very 
>> different styles. Email is fairly readily mirrored, very searchable,
>> compresses well and the mailing lists are threaded. I can find mailing list 
>> postings from 23 years ago fairly readily - I can't find
>> posts on some forums from three months ago. As ever: Your ideal solution may 
>> be  somebody else's hell (and vice versa) and people can argue
>> merits either way until they're blue in the face with no absolute conclusion.
>
> Thanks for your input. Your post has merit. I agree with most of what
> you said.
>
> I just wish Debian maintains online forums so people have a choice?
> AFAIK https://forums.debian.net/ is not official, not long time ago they
> didn't even had https. Now they do, but their main page debian.net still
> incorrectly redirects to debian.org via http, not https. IDK who is the
> operator but doesn't sound professional.

Apart from needing people to maintain the service (and a dynamic website
requires someone, otherwise good luck to pass DSA's stamp), it would
probably split our community onto multiple media and make them probably
unable to talk in the long term.

I'm not sure it's a path we want to walk on.

Cheers,

--
PEB


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: mail service

[Brian]

On Sun 10 Oct 2021 at 17:18:13 +, fxkl47BF wrote:

> just one more thing
> 
> posteo was mentioned as an alternative
> i have a posteo account i will drop in a few months
> their spam policy is to bounce it back to the sender
> the account own has no say

You have a link to a statement of this policy?

-- 
Brian.

[OFFTOPIC] Re: mail service

[Stefan Monnier]

> In general, the circumstances which would require one to use a tool like
> protonmail are not commonly observed in connection with a list like
> debian-user.

While protonmail might be used for such situations, in my experience
most protonmail users I've seen are just people that are sufficiently
technically aware to know that they should stay away from gmail and
friends and look for a quality email provider (posteo being another
popular provider in that space).

So, my own bias would rather tend to expect good behavior (good
questions and good answers) from participants posting from
protonmail ;-)


Stefan

Re: How can encrypt my messages sent to the forum?

[echo test]

Hi William,

If you want your messages to exchanged securely with SSL, you have to
ensure that your SMTP (client,relay,...) use the STARTTLS command of the
SMTP protocol.

If you want your messages to be encrypted you have to know the public key
of your target (if using a public key infrastructure) or find way to share
a secret with your target for a symetric encryption.

May be someone can tell you if this mailing list provide a public key for
GPG. Personally I never checked for this and I hope this will help you.

Echo Zeta



Le dim. 10 oct. 2021 à 19:10, Andrew M.A. Cater  a
écrit :

> On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 10:59:11AM -0600, William Torrez Corea wrote:
> > My messages isn't encrypted, is in plain text.
> >
>
> Hi William,
>
> Which forum? This is a mailing list.
>
> Why would you want to encrypt messages sent here: the whole purpose
> of a mailing list is open communication, surely?
>
> What problem are you trying to solve?
>
> All the very best, as ever,
>
> Andy Cater
>
>
> > --
> >
> > With kindest regards, William.
> >
> > ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
> > ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
> > ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
> > ⠈⠳⣄
>
>

Re: Then it happened to me...

[Brian]

On Sun 10 Oct 2021 at 18:45:12 +0100, piorunz wrote:

[...]

> I just wish Debian maintains online forums so people have a choice?
> AFAIK https://forums.debian.net/ is not official, not long time ago they
> didn't even had https. Now they do, but their main page debian.net still
> incorrectly redirects to debian.org via http, not https. IDK who is the
> operator but doesn't sound professional.

Users may be interested in

  https://bits.debian.org/2021/08/debianuserforums.html

There are at least three people there to express concerns to.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Then it happened to me...

[piorunz]

On 10/10/2021 17:13, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:


Hi Piotr,

No - it's a nuisance. In this instance, it's an isolated nuisance - one VPS 
host in OVH.net which may be misconfigured, accidentally
or purposefully. Listmasters are aware - several of us have contacted them. 
It's an annoyance (much as when old-style spammers used
to harvest email addresses to apparently send spam from): it will go away again.

Forums work for some people, they don't for others - people have very different 
styles. Email is fairly readily mirrored, very searchable,
compresses well and the mailing lists are threaded. I can find mailing list 
postings from 23 years ago fairly readily - I can't find
posts on some forums from three months ago. As ever: Your ideal solution may be 
 somebody else's hell (and vice versa) and people can argue
merits either way until they're blue in the face with no absolute conclusion.


Thanks for your input. Your post has merit. I agree with most of what
you said.

I just wish Debian maintains online forums so people have a choice?
AFAIK https://forums.debian.net/ is not official, not long time ago they
didn't even had https. Now they do, but their main page debian.net still
incorrectly redirects to debian.org via http, not https. IDK who is the
operator but doesn't sound professional.

--
With kindest regards, Piotr.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄

Re: How i can resolve the problem of packages?

[Cindy Sue Causey]

On 10/10/21, Dan Ritter  wrote:
> William Torrez Corea wrote:
>> I try execute the followings tasks but i get the same error:
>>
>> ldconfig: Can't create temporary cache file /etc/ld.so.cache~: Read-only
>> > file system
>
>
>
> Your root file system is read-only. This indicates a major
> problem during boot.
>
> You'll need to fix this first. Look at logs.


I saw that but wanted to see someone respond first. I've experienced
read-only with hardware failures, too. The affected partition will
become dismounted by itself then will be read-only if it remounts at
all.

Faulty USB hubs are the primary cause in my instances.That would
involve having to spend money to fix. It's why I didn't want to type
about this first. :)

Cindy :)
-- 
Cindy-Sue Causey
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA
* runs with birdseed *

Re: How can encrypt my messages sent to the forum?

[Charlie Gibbs]

On Sun Oct 10 10:16:22 2021 William Torrez Corea  
wrote:


>--b6123b05ce02888b
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
>
>TXkgbWVzc2FnZXMgaXNuJ3QgZW5jcnlwdGVkLCBpcyBpbiBwbGFpbiB0ZXh0Lg0KDQotLSANCg0K
>V2l0aCBraW5kZXN0IHJlZ2FyZHMsIFdpbGxpYW0uDQoNCuKigOKjtOKgvuKgu+KituKjpuKggA0K
>4qO+4qCB4qKg4qCS4qCA4qO/4qGBIERlYmlhbiAtIFRoZSB1bml2ZXJzYWwgb3BlcmF0aW5nIHN5
>c3RlbQ0K4qK/4qGE4qCY4qC34qCa4qCL4qCAIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmRlYmlhbi5vcmcNCuKgiOKg
>s+KjhOKggOKggOKggOKggA0K
>--b6123b05ce02888b
>Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
>
>PGRpdiBkaXI9Imx0ciI+TXkgbWVzc2FnZXMgaXNuJiMzOTt0IGVuY3J5cHRlZCwgaXMgaW4gcGxh
>aW4gdGV4dC4gPGJyIGNsZWFyPSJhbGwiPjxkaXY+PGJyPi0tIDxicj48ZGl2IGRpcj0ibHRyIiBj
>bGFzcz0iZ21haWxfc2lnbmF0dXJlIiBkYXRhLXNtYXJ0bWFpbD0iZ21haWxfc2lnbmF0dXJlIj48
>ZGl2IGRpcj0ibHRyIj48ZGl2PjxwcmUgY29scz0iNzIiPldpdGgga2luZGVzdCByZWdhcmRzLCBX
>aWxsaWFtLg0KDQriooDio7TioL7ioLviorbio6bioIAgDQrio77ioIHioqDioJLioIDio7/ioYEg
>RGViaWFuIC0gVGhlIHVuaXZlcnNhbCBvcGVyYXRpbmcgc3lzdGVtDQrior/ioYTioJjioLfioJri
>oIvioIAgPGEgaHJlZj0iaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZGViaWFuLm9yZyIgdGFyZ2V0PSJfYmxhbmsiPmh0
>dHBzOi8vd3d3LmRlYmlhbi5vcmc8L2E+DQrioIjioLPio4TioIDioIDioIDioIAgDQo8L3ByZT48
>L2Rpdj48L2Rpdj48L2Rpdj48L2Rpdj48L2Rpdj4NCg==
>--b6123b05ce02888b--

You've just done it.  :-)

--
/~\  Charlie Gibbs  |  I could never get the hang
\ /|   of ideology.
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus |  I do the rock, myself.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |-- Tim Curry

Re: How can encrypt my messages sent to the forum?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 11:29:16AM -0600, William Torrez Corea wrote:
> I think that i am confused.
> 
> Maybe i want to send an email to a person and have security in the message.

Maybe?

Maybe you want to stop proposing random hypothetical situations.

Re: How can encrypt my messages sent to the forum?

[William Torrez Corea]

I think that i am confused.

Maybe i want to send an email to a person and have security in the message.

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 11:10 AM Andrew M.A. Cater 
wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 10:59:11AM -0600, William Torrez Corea wrote:
> > My messages isn't encrypted, is in plain text.
> >
>
> Hi William,
>
> Which forum? This is a mailing list.
>
> Why would you want to encrypt messages sent here: the whole purpose
> of a mailing list is open communication, surely?
>
> What problem are you trying to solve?
>
> All the very best, as ever,
>
> Andy Cater
>
>
> > --
> >
> > With kindest regards, William.
> >
> > ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
> > ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
> > ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
> > ⠈⠳⣄
>
>

-- 

With kindest regards, William.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄

Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: mail service

[fxkl47BF]

just one more thing

posteo was mentioned as an alternative
i have a posteo account i will drop in a few months
their spam policy is to bounce it back to the sender
the account own has no say

i also have a mailfence account i will drop
a while back i stopped getting mail from my bank
i investigated and found the bank mail was generating a false positive virus
i informed mailfence and they agreed it was probably the cause of my trouble
but they didn't bother to fix it
several months later they started passing mail from my bank

some times you have to kiss a lot of frogs

Re: How can encrypt my messages sent to the forum?

[Dan Ritter]

William Torrez Corea wrote: 
> My messages isn't encrypted, is in plain text.

How did you want other people to read an encrypted message?

-dsr-

Re: How i can resolve the problem of packages?

[Dan Ritter]

William Torrez Corea wrote: 
> I try execute the followings tasks but i get the same error:
> 
> ldconfig: Can't create temporary cache file /etc/ld.so.cache~: Read-only
> > file system



Your root file system is read-only. This indicates a major
problem during boot.

You'll need to fix this first. Look at logs.


-dsr-

Re: How can encrypt my messages sent to the forum?

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 10:59:11AM -0600, William Torrez Corea wrote:
> My messages isn't encrypted, is in plain text.
> 

Hi William,

Which forum? This is a mailing list.

Why would you want to encrypt messages sent here: the whole purpose
of a mailing list is open communication, surely?

What problem are you trying to solve?

All the very best, as ever,

Andy Cater


> -- 
> 
> With kindest regards, William.
> 
> ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
> ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
> ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
> ⠈⠳⣄

How can encrypt my messages sent to the forum?

[William Torrez Corea]

My messages isn't encrypted, is in plain text.

-- 

With kindest regards, William.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄

Re: How i can resolve the problem of packages?

[William Torrez Corea]

I try execute the followings tasks but i get the same error:

ldconfig: Can't create temporary cache file /etc/ld.so.cache~: Read-only
> file system
> dpkg: error al procesar el paquete libc-bin (--configure):
>  el subproceso instalado paquete libc-bin script post-installation
> devolvió el código de salida de error 1
> Se encontraron errores al procesar:
>  libc-bin
> E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
>

Can't proceed for a good way.

On Sun, Oct 3, 2021 at 8:18 AM  wrote:

> Actually, the instructions are here
>
>   https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Apt
>
> (if you go to https://apt.postgresql.org/ you get redirected to the
> above wiki page, so the PostgreSQL folks have really taken pains
> to make sure nobody misses it). Quoting from that page:
>
> Quickstart
> --
>
> Import the repository key from
> https://www.postgresql.org/media/keys/ACCC4CF8.asc:
>
> sudo apt install curl ca-certificates gnupg
> curl https://www.postgresql.org/media/keys/ACCC4CF8.asc | gpg
> --dearmor | sudo tee /etc/apt/trusted.gpg.d/apt.postgresql.org.gpg
> >/dev/null
>
> Create /etc/apt/sources.list.d/pgdg.list. The distributions are called
> codename-pgdg. In the example, replace buster with the actual distribution
> you are using. File contents:
>
> Let us know whether there is still anything unclear.
>
> Cheers
>  - t
>


-- 

With kindest regards, William.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄

Re: Then it happened to me...

[Eric S Fraga]

On Sunday, 10 Oct 2021 at 06:37, Eike Lantzsch ZP6CGE wrote:
> Usenet anybody? Just one newsreader to rule them all, killfile etc ...

+1

I hate all those different fora.  End up not engaging; too much
friction, too little time.  Same applies to re-invented technologies
such as slack etc.

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.60 & org 9.5 on Debian 11.0

Re: Then it happened to me...

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 10:22:38AM +0100, piorunz wrote:
> On 10/10/2021 10:08, Richard Owlett wrote:
> 
> > > No.  'Newer' = 'better' is a false equivalency.
> > > 
> > 
> > +1
> > 
> > To paraphrase a local advertising jingle:
> > E-mail lists are not good because they are old, they are old because
> > they work well.
> 
> Dozens of users being kicked out (unsubscribed) on daily basis is "work
> well" for you?
> 
> --
> With kindest regards, Piotr.
> 
> ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
> ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
> ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
> ⠈⠳⣄
> 

Hi Piotr,

No - it's a nuisance. In this instance, it's an isolated nuisance - one VPS 
host in OVH.net which may be misconfigured, accidentally
or purposefully. Listmasters are aware - several of us have contacted them. 
It's an annoyance (much as when old-style spammers used
to harvest email addresses to apparently send spam from): it will go away again.

Forums work for some people, they don't for others - people have very different 
styles. Email is fairly readily mirrored, very searchable,
compresses well and the mailing lists are threaded. I can find mailing list 
postings from 23 years ago fairly readily - I can't find
posts on some forums from three months ago. As ever: Your ideal solution may be 
 somebody else's hell (and vice versa) and people can argue 
merits either way until they're blue in the face with no absolute conclusion.

All the very best, as ever,

Andy Cater

Re: Then it happened to me...

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2021 10 Oct 07:50 -0500, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Sunday 10 October 2021 06:36:32 Reco wrote:
> > [2] https://discourse.debian.org/
> This does not resolve.

Good!

I don't care for Discourse.  At. All.  Too much is in control of the
site admins.  It can probably be argued that email has too little
control, however, my main gripe about the Discourse setups I have
registered with are that the admins lock threads after a relatively
short period of time.  I do understand that some don't like old threads
coming back to the top but sometimes it is relevant to revive an old
thread as new information comes available.  Unlike TV, in the real world
solutions aren't always found in 39 1/2 minutes!

One thing about email lists, at least those managed by GNU Mailman, is
that they're archived and often the archive can be obtained by anyone
thereby preserving the content.  Just try to do that with the average
Web forum, and note that I am no stranger to Web forums.

Finally, email lets me use the mail agent and the editor *I* want, not
what is dictated by the forum software.

- Nate

-- 
"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."
Web: https://www.n0nb.us
Projects: https://github.com/N0NB
GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819



signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: ip6tables rule being rejected.

[Tim Woodall]

On Sun, 10 Oct 2021, Reco wrote:


On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 12:06:25PM +0100, Tim Woodall wrote:

When I try to add the following rule:

# ip6tables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -s 2001::/64 -d ! 2001:1::/64 -j ACCEPT
Bad argument `2001:1::/64'
Try `ip6tables -h' or 'ip6tables --help' for more information.

It is rejected.


As it should. This is correct one:

ip6tables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -s 2001::/64 ! -d 2001:1::/64 -j ACCEPT

It's a known quirk of iptables - you apply inversion *before* the test,
not *inside* of it.


And there is no problem

The manpage suggests that it should work:
d, --destination [!] address[/mask]


My instance of the same manpage states differently:

[!] -d, --destination address[/mask][,...]

But I'm using current stable, I'm unsure how this quirk was documented
before, but it behaved this was for two major Debian releases, maybe
more.



Thanks both! It's now working. And, indeed, my manpage does have it the
way you suggest. I'd initially found the documentation via a web search
and not twigged that the manpage and the documenatation here were
different:

https://linux.die.net/man/8/ip6tables

Tim.

Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: mail service

[fxkl47BF]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 9:31 AM, Stefan Monnier 
 wrote:

> > In general, the circumstances which would require one to use a tool like
> >
> > protonmail are not commonly observed in connection with a list like
> >
> > debian-user.
>
> While protonmail might be used for such situations, in my experience
>
> most protonmail users I've seen are just people that are sufficiently
>
> technically aware to know that they should stay away from gmail and
>
> friends and look for a quality email provider (posteo being another
>
> popular provider in that space).
>
> So, my own bias would rather tend to expect good behavior (good
>
> questions and good answers) from participants posting from
>
> protonmail ;-)
>
> Stefan

well put
you're a much better wordsmith than i

Re: mail service

[fxkl47BF]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 9:30 AM, Reco  wrote:

> Hi.
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 01:44:50PM +, fxkl47BF wrote:
>
> > but on another mailing list i used this same address
> >
> > i was banned
> >
> > the admin apologized and explained later my address looked suspicious
>
> Here they do not ban users based on e-mail domain alone.
>
> You have to do something worthy of the ban first :)
>
> Although you could've chosen more pronouceable alias. I mean, your
>
> current one looks like you've swapped your username and password. No
>
> offence meant, just in case.
>
> Reco

no offense taken
i use expect_mkpasswd to generate passwords
decades ago i got tired of trying to come up with user names
i just use expect_mkpasswd to make a short unique name
today everyone is trying to glean all of the personal info they can
i try not give out any more than is necessary

Re: First time WINE user looking for tutorial

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 05:14:36AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 10/09/2021 10:24 AM, Patrick Bartek wrote:
> > On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 09:40:21 -0500
> > Richard Owlett  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Just be forewarned, WINE is not the catchall solution to running
> > Windows apps: The more involved codewise the program is like games or
> > Photoshop, the more problems you'll have.
> 
> For context, I've been providing informal support to a local couple for
> decades. He is a retired pastor, now a missionary. They need a new computer
> and as part of my support, I'll be purchasing a replacement. As I've not
> used Windows since WinXP and they are pure Windows users I planned to dual
> boot Windows and Debian. Debian primarily for its maintenance tools. I hope
> WINE will run enough of their "must have" apps that I can use that as a
> selling point to move from Windows to Linux.
> 
In all honesty, I wouldn't do that: don't force a dual boot on anyone that 
isn't an expert computer user. They could readily get 
confused / boot into the wrong OS. Better, in this instance, to buy a new 
computer with Windows and whatever office software
they might need and for you to learn enough to use Windows 10 or 11.

If you get Windows Pro, you could readily use Debian over WSL2 if you had to. 
On a new computer, don't take the risk of making it dual boot,
perhaps having to reinstall Windows, "voiding warranty" and creating a further 
rod for your back in support.

This is, perhaps, an unusual viewpoint to take - but I have been involved in 
trying to set up a special purpose
machine for someone who didn't appreciate the help that I was endeavouring to 
provide, queried costs and so on.
I ended up paying money out of my own pocket to fix items because I was 
guilt-tripped into it.


> > In those cases, just run Windows in a virtual machine which is what I do
> > for ALL Windows apps I need. Less or virtually no gotchas!
> 

As a Linux user, on your own machine, absolutely. Again, you do need to know 
what you're doing this for and the limitations of Windows
 - it's something I have considered for folk who are predominantly Linux users 
but have to use Windows occasionally for work.

> On my personal machines I would have no motivation to install a VM. However,
> I'll investigate the pros/cons of having their machine run a VM in which I
> would run Debian as a demo.

> 
> Are there good FOSS or low cost VMs for Windows machines?

Microsoft's WSL2 is the closest you'll get. That and Debian are no cost options 
- but in that instance, you have to get your Debian instance
from the Microsoft store.

> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
All best, as ever,

Andy Cater

> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: Mouse left button acts really strange

[Dan Ritter]

Gene Heskett wrote: 
> where the finger made but one push. Those of us that have a hot 
> soldering iron grafted to a hand can fix that, but we're often 
> considered rare birds to be avoided by the girls lest the geekiness is 
> catching. Some of us are even CET's, but that card, laid on the HR desk 
> has gotten me every job I ever wanted, some quite lucrative.

I'm just going to point out that my wife is a better solderer
than I am, and also better at carpentry, sewing, and when I find
myself in need of advice on how to be a better manager, she's my
subject matter expert. 

Soldering is not a gender-specialized activity.

-dsr-

Re: Mouse left button acts really strange

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 10 October 2021 09:52:40 Jeremy Nicoll wrote:

> On Sat, 9 Oct 2021, at 19:52, sp...@caiway.net wrote:
> > I really like Logitech mouses (fast scrolling!), but when used often
> > they break each one/two year.
>
> I use my mice almost always in bed, with the mouse either on top
> of the duvet or running around under it on the sheet.  (The laptop
> is on an overbed table.)
>
> What kills them most often is me forgetting where they are and
> getting out of bed causing the mouse to fly off the bed where it
> often collides with a bookcase (or worse) the metal frame of the
> overbed table.
>
> The poor mice expire traumatically, not even managing to call for
> help.  No SQUEAK!  Just a thud.

The most common failure is the solder joints on the bottom of the boards 
under the swithes. That wave soldering process demands that the switches 
be held solidly to the board, not floating 1 to 10 thou up it the air. 
The solder is many times heavier than the switch so if not solidly held 
down while the solder wave goes by, they will float just a hair, leaving 
an air gap between the board and the bottom of the switch. This air gap 
is closed by the finger pressing the button, which gradually loosens the 
grip of the glue holding the copper to the bottom of the board and 
eventually cracking the solder joint, leading to a quick double click 
effect from the switch closing in response to the finger, then a break 
as the crack opens, followed by a second click as the finger lifts again 
and the crack closes, then the switch opens again, giving a double click 
where the finger made but one push. Those of us that have a hot 
soldering iron grafted to a hand can fix that, but we're often 
considered rare birds to be avoided by the girls lest the geekiness is 
catching. Some of us are even CET's, but that card, laid on the HR desk 
has gotten me every job I ever wanted, some quite lucrative.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: mail service

[Reco]

Hi.

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 01:44:50PM +, fxkl47BF wrote:
> but on another mailing list i used this same address
> i was banned
> the admin apologized and explained later my address looked suspicious

Here they do not ban users based on e-mail domain alone.
You have to do something worthy of the ban first :)

Although you could've chosen more pronouceable alias. I mean, your
current one looks like you've swapped your username and password. No
offence meant, just in case.

Reco

Re: Mouse left button acts really strange

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Sat, 9 Oct 2021, at 19:52, sp...@caiway.net wrote:
> I really like Logitech mouses (fast scrolling!), but when used often
> they break each one/two year.

I use my mice almost always in bed, with the mouse either on top
of the duvet or running around under it on the sheet.  (The laptop
is on an overbed table.)

What kills them most often is me forgetting where they are and 
getting out of bed causing the mouse to fly off the bed where it
often collides with a bookcase (or worse) the metal frame of the
overbed table.

The poor mice expire traumatically, not even managing to call for
help.  No SQUEAK!  Just a thud.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Re: mail service

[fxkl47BF]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 8:23 AM, Greg Wooledge  
wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 09:32:55AM +, fxkl47BF wrote:
>
> > in a different mailing list it was implied that if a person uses protonmail 
> > they must be up to no good
> >
> > i've used protonmail for about 6 months now and been satisfied
> >
> > what am i missing
>
> I suspect I know which mailing list you're talking about. If I'm right,
>
> the abuse to which you're referring is being caused by one person, who
>
> has switched email addresses and identities repeatedly over the course
>
> of a year. Their latest attempt at hiding their identity has been to use
>
> a series of different protonmail addresses.
>
> For those of us on the receiving end of that person's abuse, the fact that
>
> any message from a new person has protonmail in its message ID is just
>
> one indicator that the message may be from the abuser. We have to
>
> look at other things too, like the actual content of the message.
>
> As long as you're posting in good faith, nobody (as far as I know) is
>
> going to reject your messages only because of your email provider.

that is what a person would hope
but on another mailing list i used this same address
i was banned
the admin apologized and explained later my address looked suspicious

Re: mail service

[fxkl47BF]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 8:16 AM, Roberto C. Sánchez 
 wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 01:09:03PM +, fxkl47BF wrote:
>
> > i understand and respect what you are saying
> >
> > i also reject it
> >
> > we have no way of knowing you are roberto
> >
> > following what you say it would make people feel warm and fuzzy if i called 
> > myself george washinton
> >
> > it's just judging a book by it's cover
> >
> > what kind of person does that
>
> Perception is reality.
>
> You are right that in general there does not exist a reliable means of
>
> verifying online identities. However, to appear in an online forum
>
> taking a form that appears substantially different from the bulkd of
>
> other participants in the forum will attract attention.
>
> To that end, depending on the threat model you are trying to address,
>
> appearing through a provider like protonmail has a different set of
>
> trade-offs from using a more well-known provider, not associated with
>
> total anonimity (like Gmail, Yahoo, etc.) and a pseudonym that more
>
> closely resembles a real name.
>
> If your goal is absolute and total anonimity while minimizing the
>
> likelihood that your true location/identity/etc. can be discovered, then
>
> protonmail is likely the way to go. However, that makes you "stick out"
>
> in a place like debian-user. If you wish to have a degree of anonimity
>
> while blending into the background, then a Gmail account using a
>
> pseudonym would probably attract far less notice.
>
> Regards,
>
> -Roberto
>
> -
>
> Roberto C. Sánchez

once again i totally agree and disagree
gmail, yahoo, gmx, etc. state that they scan mail going through their service
today personal information is gold
and for anonymity, the safest place to hide a tree is in a forest
years ago i saw a show where the character said

spies make the best neighbors
they keep their lawns cut and always take in the trash cans
they do everything the perfect average person should do

Re: mail service

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 09:32:55AM +, fxkl47BF wrote:
> 
> in a different mailing list it was implied that if a person uses protonmail 
> they must be up to no good
> i've used protonmail for about 6 months now and been satisfied
> what am i missing

I suspect I know which mailing list you're talking about.  If I'm right,
the abuse to which you're referring is being caused by one person, who
has switched email addresses and identities repeatedly over the course
of a year.  Their latest attempt at hiding their identity has been to use
a series of different protonmail addresses.

For those of us on the receiving end of that person's abuse, the fact that
any message from a new person has protonmail in its message ID is just
*one* indicator that the message may be from the abuser.  We have to
look at other things too, like the actual content of the message.

As long as you're posting in good faith, nobody (as far as I know) is
going to reject your messages *only* because of your email provider.

Re: mail service

[Roberto C . Sánchez]

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 01:09:03PM +, fxkl47BF wrote:
> 
> i understand and respect what you are saying
> i also reject it
> we have no way of knowing you are roberto
> following what you say it would make people feel warm and fuzzy if i called 
> myself george washinton
> it's just judging a book by it's cover
> what kind of person does that
> 
Perception is reality.

You are right that in general there does not exist a reliable means of
verifying online identities.  However, to appear in an online forum
taking a form that appears substantially different from the bulkd of
other participants in the forum will attract attention.

To that end, depending on the threat model you are trying to address,
appearing through a provider like protonmail has a different set of
trade-offs from using a more well-known provider, not associated with
total anonimity (like Gmail, Yahoo, etc.) and a pseudonym that more
closely resembles a real name.

If your goal is absolute and total anonimity while minimizing the
likelihood that your true location/identity/etc. can be discovered, then
protonmail is likely the way to go.  However, that makes you "stick out"
in a place like debian-user.  If you wish to have a degree of anonimity
while blending into the background, then a Gmail account using a
pseudonym would probably attract far less notice.

Regards,

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sánchez

Re: mail service

[fxkl47BF]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On Sunday, October 10th, 2021 at 7:17 AM, Roberto C. Sánchez 
 wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 09:32:55AM +, fxkl47BF wrote:
>
> > in a different mailing list it was implied that if a person uses protonmail 
> > they must be up to no good
> >
> > i've used protonmail for about 6 months now and been satisfied
> >
> > what am i missing
>
> Services like protonmail have an important role in allowing
>
> communication from, to, and between persons who are under threat of
>
> persecution for some reason or another. E.g., political dissidents,
>
> whistleblowers, journalists, religious workers in certain countries,
>
> etc.
>
> In general, the circumstances which would require one to use a tool like
>
> protonmail are not commonly observed in connection with a list like
>
> debian-user. Since the history of the Internet is one of openness and
>
> collaboration (especially when it comes to newsgroups, from which lists
>
> like debian-user derive a heritage), to appear in a collaborative space
>
> without any way for the other participants to identify you is viewed
>
> with suspicion. Whether that is a fair or unfair bias is debatable.
>
> There is also ample evidence that very often, those who appear in
>
> technical fora under a cloak of anonimity do so for the purpose of
>
> disrupting, attacking, and so on, without risk to their real reputation.
>
> Regards,
>
> -Roberto
>
> 
>
> Roberto C. Sánchez

i understand and respect what you are saying
i also reject it
we have no way of knowing you are roberto
following what you say it would make people feel warm and fuzzy if i called 
myself george washinton
it's just judging a book by it's cover
what kind of person does that

Re: Then it happened to me...

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 10 October 2021 06:36:32 Reco wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 08:33:03AM +0100, piorunz wrote:
> > On 08/10/2021 18:10, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > > I've just set postfix to drop anything from that host at SMTP
> > > time, but I doubt it's going to work. I think they've found a
> > > cannon to annoy debian-user subscribers with.
> >
> > Why we don't have this?
> > https://forum.manjaro.org/
>
> Maybe because there's [1]. There should be also IRC at libera.chat,
> and that strange gizmo at [2].
> [1] is also superior to Discourse that Manjaro is using as [1] can be
> viewed without enabled Javascript.
>
> You're free to convince list denizens to move elsewhere, there were
> such efforts in the past. Where're still here btw.
>
> > We still use e-mail list, prone to spam, and abuse
>
> Once one uses own MTA, such issues are dealt quickly, simply, and most
> importantly - permanently.
> Consider it a hint. GMX is good, but not that good.
>
> > technology from 30 years ago?
>
> In other news, people are still using a wheel which was invented about
> 6000 years ago (4500 BC if Wikipedia is to be believed). Some things
> just get better with age.
> And nothing beats federated communication system which works. There's
> no reasonable alternative to SMTP yet.
>
> > Isn't it time to switch to online forums?
>
> Different way of communicating attracts different communities. I'm
> sure there's lively one at [1].
>
> > It's not that Debian haven't got the money, right?
>
> Where I'm living counting others' money is considered rude at best.
> But I know a way - join Debian project, become Debian Developer, and
> raise a General Resolution about Discourse.
>
> Reco
>
> [1] https://forums.debian.net/
I have to hit ctl+ quite a few times to get it readable. Then the python 
3 questions were all too obvious.

> [2] https://discourse.debian.org/
This does not resolve.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: ip6tables rule being rejected.

[Reco]

Hi.

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 12:06:25PM +0100, Tim Woodall wrote:
> When I try to add the following rule:
> 
> # ip6tables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -s 2001::/64 -d ! 2001:1::/64 -j ACCEPT
> Bad argument `2001:1::/64'
> Try `ip6tables -h' or 'ip6tables --help' for more information.
> 
> It is rejected.

As it should. This is correct one:

ip6tables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -s 2001::/64 ! -d 2001:1::/64 -j ACCEPT

It's a known quirk of iptables - you apply inversion *before* the test,
not *inside* of it.

> And there is no problem
> 
> The manpage suggests that it should work:
> d, --destination [!] address[/mask]

My instance of the same manpage states differently:

[!] -d, --destination address[/mask][,...]

But I'm using current stable, I'm unsure how this quirk was documented
before, but it behaved this was for two major Debian releases, maybe
more.

Reco

Re: ip6tables rule being rejected.

[Markus Schönhaber]

10.10.21, 13:06 +0200, Tim Woodall:


When I try to add the following rule:

# ip6tables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -s 2001::/64 -d ! 2001:1::/64 -j ACCEPT
Bad argument `2001:1::/64'
Try `ip6tables -h' or 'ip6tables --help' for more information.

It is rejected. (Ignore the fact that this rule doesn't make a huge
amount of sense, it's a very cut down instance of the rule that I'm
really trying to add)

Leaving off the exclusion:
# ip6tables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -s 2001::/64 -d 2001:1::/64 -j ACCEPT
#

And there is no problem

The manpage suggests that it should work:
d, --destination [!] address[/mask]
  Destination specification. See the description of the -s (source)
flag for a detailed description of the syntax. The flag --dst is an
alias for this option.


The man page I see on bullseye suggests otherwise:


   [!] -d, --destination address[/mask][,...]
  Destination  specification.   See the description of the -s 
(source) flag for a detailed description of the syntax.  The flag --dst is
  an alias for this option.


i. e. putting The '!' left of the '-d' works:
# ip6tables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -s 2001::/64 ! -d 2001:1::/64 -j ACCEPT

Granted, the explanation in the man page for "!" under "--source" seems 
a bit ambiguous to me:



   [!] -s, --source address[/mask][,...]

[...]

  A "!"  argument before the address specification inverts the 
sense of the address.


The start of the paragraph shows where the "!" belongs, though.

--
Regards
  mks

Re: mail service

[Roberto C . Sánchez]

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 09:32:55AM +, fxkl47BF wrote:
> 
> in a different mailing list it was implied that if a person uses protonmail 
> they must be up to no good
> i've used protonmail for about 6 months now and been satisfied
> what am i missing
> 

Services like protonmail have an important role in allowing
communication from, to, and between persons who are under threat of
persecution for some reason or another.  E.g., political dissidents,
whistleblowers, journalists, religious workers in certain countries,
etc.

In general, the circumstances which would require one to use a tool like
protonmail are not commonly observed in connection with a list like
debian-user.  Since the history of the Internet is one of openness and
collaboration (especially when it comes to newsgroups, from which lists
like debian-user derive a heritage), to appear in a collaborative space
without any way for the other participants to identify you is viewed
with suspicion.  Whether that is a fair or unfair bias is debatable.

There is also ample evidence that very often, those who appear in
technical fora under a cloak of anonimity do so for the purpose of
disrupting, attacking, and so on, without risk to their real reputation.

Regards,

-Roberto

-- 
Roberto C. Sánchez

Re: Then it happened to me...

[piorunz]

On 10/10/2021 12:28, Brad Rogers wrote:

On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 11:41:07 +0100
piorunz  wrote:

Hello piorunz,


I took it from Wikipedia:


Taking stuff from a single wikipedia article without context or relevant
research is rarely a good idea.


This is not life & death research topic. I just learned some stuff about
early forums and BBs for my own leisure. And yes I know Wikipedia can
lie. After all it's written by humans.


Furthermore, never for get that, at any given moment, what you read on
wikipedia may be wrong - despite their best efforts to avoid it.



I actually registered on https://www.delphiforums.com/ just now. One of
the first online forums ever, and still going strong!

--
With kindest regards, Piotr.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄

Re: Then it happened to me...

[Brad Rogers]

On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 19:05:55 +1100
Keith Bainbridge  wrote:

Hello Keith,

>.remember to look in regularly.

And therein lies one of the main problems.   :-(

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
Watching the people get lairy
I Predict A Riot - Kaiser Chiefs


pgpDLBWcoXtwA.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Then it happened to me...

[Brad Rogers]

On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 11:41:07 +0100
piorunz  wrote:

Hello piorunz,

>I took it from Wikipedia:

Taking stuff from a single wikipedia article without context or relevant
research is rarely a good idea.

Furthermore, never for get that, at any given moment, what you read on
wikipedia may be wrong - despite their best efforts to avoid it.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
Everything in life should be free, except the bits that belong to me
Selfish Rubbish - Public Image Ltd


pgpXWGdhpsblv.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Then it happened to me...

[Brad Rogers]

On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 09:47:14 +0100
piorunz  wrote:

Hello piorunz,

Always remember that the Debian MLs continue to exist because they get
used.  In any case, Debian forums exist, as has been pointed out.  They
seem to be busier than I suspected, too.

>First online forums were created, in fact, in 70s

As Bret says, the 'net didn't exist then.  Sure, Darpanet was around,
but that has little resemblance to the modern internet.  Admittedly, the
'net owes its very existence to Darpa.  The forums at that time bear
almost no relation to what we're saddled with nowadays, which are built
on the world wide web.  And that was not invented by Tim Berners-Lee
until 1989.

> according to you, can you explain why not?

What Eike and Keith have said.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
Success defined by acquisition stinks
Money is Not Our God -  Killing Joke


pgpqzBZjrOpS4.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

ip6tables rule being rejected.

[Tim Woodall]

Hi,

When I try to add the following rule:

# ip6tables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -s 2001::/64 -d ! 2001:1::/64 -j ACCEPT
Bad argument `2001:1::/64'
Try `ip6tables -h' or 'ip6tables --help' for more information.

It is rejected. (Ignore the fact that this rule doesn't make a huge
amount of sense, it's a very cut down instance of the rule that I'm
really trying to add)

Leaving off the exclusion:
# ip6tables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -s 2001::/64 -d 2001:1::/64 -j ACCEPT
#

And there is no problem

The manpage suggests that it should work:
d, --destination [!] address[/mask]
Destination specification. See the description of the -s (source)
flag for a detailed description of the syntax. The flag --dst is an
alias for this option.


Am I doing something daft or should this work?

Re: Then it happened to me...

[Reco]

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 08:33:03AM +0100, piorunz wrote:
> On 08/10/2021 18:10, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > I've just set postfix to drop anything from that host at SMTP
> > time, but I doubt it's going to work. I think they've found a
> > cannon to annoy debian-user subscribers with.
> > 
> Why we don't have this?
> https://forum.manjaro.org/

Maybe because there's [1]. There should be also IRC at libera.chat, and
that strange gizmo at [2].
[1] is also superior to Discourse that Manjaro is using as [1] can be
viewed without enabled Javascript.

You're free to convince list denizens to move elsewhere, there were such
efforts in the past. Where're still here btw.


> We still use e-mail list, prone to spam, and abuse

Once one uses own MTA, such issues are dealt quickly, simply, and most
importantly - permanently.
Consider it a hint. GMX is good, but not that good.


> technology from 30 years ago?

In other news, people are still using a wheel which was invented about
6000 years ago (4500 BC if Wikipedia is to be believed). Some things
just get better with age.
And nothing beats federated communication system which works. There's no
reasonable alternative to SMTP yet.


> Isn't it time to switch to online forums?

Different way of communicating attracts different communities. I'm sure
there's lively one at [1].


> It's not that Debian haven't got the money, right?

Where I'm living counting others' money is considered rude at best.
But I know a way - join Debian project, become Debian Developer, and
raise a General Resolution about Discourse.

Reco

[1] https://forums.debian.net/
[2] https://discourse.debian.org/

Re: Then it happened to me...

[piorunz]

On 10/10/2021 11:21, Bret Busby wrote:


First online forums were created, in fact, in 70s. Is that new to you?


Interesting, given that The Internet did not exist in the 1970's...


I took it from Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum

"Some of the first forum systems were the Planet-Forum system, developed
at the beginning of the 1970s, the EIES system, first operational in
1976, and the KOM system, first operational in 1977."

Very interesting. Certainly before I was born!

--
With kindest regards, Piotr.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄

Re: Then it happened to me...

[The Wanderer]

On 2021-10-10 at 06:21, Bret Busby wrote:

> On 10/10/21 4:47 pm, piorunz wrote:
> 
>> On 10/10/2021 08:48, Brad Rogers wrote:

>>> No.  'Newer' = 'better' is a false equivalency.
>> 
>> First online forums were created, in fact, in 70s. Is that new to
>> you?
> 
> Interesting, given that The Internet did not exist in the 1970's...

I'd guess that he(?) is referring to BBSes; while they were before my
time, I understand them to have largely been dial-up posting fora, and I
can see the analogy to online forums as they have existed in the era of
the Internet.

That said, I could also see an argument that they're more similar to
mailing lists than you might think, and even *more* similar to Usenet.

(FAOD: I concur with those who think that Web-based fora are inferior to
mailing lists for this type of discussion, and that this type of issue
is more likely to be a transitory hiccup than a serious reason to
consider abandoning mailing-list technology for the less-capable new
hotness of a Web forum.)


(This is the first message I've posted here since the problem began
manifesting, and only the second this month. I will be interested to see
whether, and if so at what point, the problem manifests for me as well.)

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Then it happened to me...

[Bret Busby]

On 10/10/21 4:47 pm, piorunz wrote:

On 10/10/2021 08:48, Brad Rogers wrote:

On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 08:33:03 +0100
piorunz  wrote:

Hello piorunz,


Isn't it time to switch to online forums?


No.  'Newer' = 'better' is a false equivalency.


First online forums were created, in fact, in 70s. Is that new to you?


Interesting, given that The Internet did not exist in the 1970's...

--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..

Re: First time WINE user looking for tutorial

[Richard Owlett]

On 10/09/2021 10:28 PM, Russell L. Harris wrote:

On Sat, Oct 09, 2021 at 08:24:38AM -0700, Patrick Bartek wrote:

On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 09:40:21 -0500
Richard Owlett  wrote:



Just be forewarned, WINE is not the catchall solution to running
Windows apps: The more involved codewise the program is like games or
Photoshop, the more problems you'll have. In those cases, just run
Windows in a virtual machine which is what I do for ALL Windows apps I
need. Less or virtually no gotchas!


Richard, Can you recommend a virtual machine for Debian which can run
Google Earth?


I have never used a VM. See my reply to Patrick.

Re: Then it happened to me...

[Reco]

Hi.

On Sun, Oct 10, 2021 at 10:22:38AM +0100, piorunz wrote:
> On 10/10/2021 10:08, Richard Owlett wrote:
> 
> > > No.  'Newer' = 'better' is a false equivalency.
> > > 
> > 
> > +1
> > 
> > To paraphrase a local advertising jingle:
> > E-mail lists are not good because they are old, they are old because
> > they work well.
> 
> Dozens of users being kicked out (unsubscribed) on daily basis is "work
> well" for you?

A minor hiccup which will be dealt with.
Besides, begin unsubscribed does not prevent one from writing here.

Reco

Re: First time WINE user looking for tutorial

[Richard Owlett]

On 10/09/2021 10:24 AM, Patrick Bartek wrote:

On Sat, 9 Oct 2021 09:40:21 -0500
Richard Owlett  wrote:


I just installed WINE64 on a Bullseye system. I'm looking for a basic
tutorial. Got no promising hits from DuckDuckGo or Google. I did some
unproductive roaming of https://www.winehq.org/ .


Really? "No promising hits?" I did an "install set up wine" DuckDuckGo
search and got numerous useful hits.  Of course, if you're looking for
a Bullseye specific tutorial, I doubt if you' find one -- too new.


Your search terms were better than mine ;/
I included "+tutorial" as a keyword and top hits were how to use git to 
submit patches.




Maybe, these will help:

   https://itsfoss.com/use-windows-applications-linux/
   https://linuxhint.com/install-use-wine-linux/


They gave me what I hoped for in posting -- additional search terms that 
relate some of my goals. In addition to both being the type of tutorial 
I was looking for, the second does not have the string "tutorial" in any 
context.





Just be forewarned, WINE is not the catchall solution to running
Windows apps: The more involved codewise the program is like games or
Photoshop, the more problems you'll have.


For context, I've been providing informal support to a local couple for 
decades. He is a retired pastor, now a missionary. They need a new 
computer and as part of my support, I'll be purchasing a replacement. As 
I've not used Windows since WinXP and they are pure Windows users I 
planned to dual boot Windows and Debian. Debian primarily for its 
maintenance tools. I hope WINE will run enough of their "must have" apps 
that I can use that as a selling point to move from Windows to Linux.



In those cases, just run Windows in a virtual machine which is what I do
for ALL Windows apps I need. Less or virtually no gotchas!


On my personal machines I would have no motivation to install a VM. 
However, I'll investigate the pros/cons of having their machine run a VM 
in which I would run Debian as a demo.


Are there good FOSS or low cost VMs for Windows machines?

Thanks

Re: Then it happened to me...

[Eike Lantzsch ZP6CGE]

On Sonntag, 10. Oktober 2021 05:47:14 -03 piorunz wrote:
> On 10/10/2021 08:48, Brad Rogers wrote:
> > On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 08:33:03 +0100
> > piorunz  wrote:
> > 
> > Hello piorunz,
> > 
> >> Isn't it time to switch to online forums?
> > 
> > No.  'Newer' = 'better' is a false equivalency.
> 
> First online forums were created, in fact, in 70s. Is that new to you?
> Also, forums don't suffer "you have been unsubscribed" problem. If
> they are not better, according to you, can you explain why not?
> 
> --
> With kindest regards, Piotr.
> 
> ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
> ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
> ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
> ⠈⠳⣄
Hi Piotr,
from a user perspective:
Fora are only good for people with just one single interest. For people with 
multiple 
interests having to be subscribed to multiple fora is a hassle and getting to 
know all the 
different ways they work is a nightmare.
To save myself time I mostly take advantage of letting fora of interest send 
articles as 
email. If they allow posting via email I appreciate that. So what's the 
advantage of a 
forum? I mean: for me?
Usenet anybody? Just one newsreader to rule them all, killfile etc ...

regards
Eike ZP6CGE

mail service

[fxkl47BF]

in a different mailing list it was implied that if a person uses protonmail 
they must be up to no good
i've used protonmail for about 6 months now and been satisfied
what am i missing

Re: Then it happened to me...

[piorunz]

On 10/10/2021 10:08, Richard Owlett wrote:


No.  'Newer' = 'better' is a false equivalency.



+1

To paraphrase a local advertising jingle:
E-mail lists are not good because they are old, they are old because
they work well.


Dozens of users being kicked out (unsubscribed) on daily basis is "work
well" for you?

--
With kindest regards, Piotr.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄

Re: Then it happened to me...

[Richard Owlett]

On 10/10/2021 02:48 AM, Brad Rogers wrote:

On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 08:33:03 +0100
piorunz  wrote:

Hello piorunz,


Isn't it time to switch to online forums?


No.  'Newer' = 'better' is a false equivalency.



+1

To paraphrase a local advertising jingle:
E-mail lists are not good because they are old, they are old because 
they work well.

Re: Then it happened to me...

[piorunz]

On 10/10/2021 08:48, Brad Rogers wrote:

On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 08:33:03 +0100
piorunz  wrote:

Hello piorunz,


Isn't it time to switch to online forums?


No.  'Newer' = 'better' is a false equivalency.


First online forums were created, in fact, in 70s. Is that new to you?
Also, forums don't suffer "you have been unsubscribed" problem. If they
are not better, according to you, can you explain why not?

--
With kindest regards, Piotr.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄

Re: Then it happened to me...

[Brad Rogers]

On Sun, 10 Oct 2021 08:33:03 +0100
piorunz  wrote:

Hello piorunz,

>Isn't it time to switch to online forums? 

No.  'Newer' = 'better' is a false equivalency.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
Two sides to every story
Public Image - Public Image Ltd


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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Then it happened to me...

[Keith Bainbridge]

On 10/10/21 18:33, piorunz wrote:



Why we don't have this?
https://forum.manjaro.org/


Good afternoon All

Last time this question was asked, I said I wouldn't use it.

I've changed my mind. If a forum or similar is set up, I'll keep it open 
and somehow remember to look in regularly.

--
All the best

Keith Bainbridge

ke1thozgro...@mail.com

Re: Then it happened to me...

[john doe]

On 10/10/2021 9:33 AM, piorunz wrote:

On 08/10/2021 18:10, Dan Ritter wrote:


It just happened to me.

I think this is actually an attack on debian-user.

Nothing in my mail logs (and, believe me, there's a lot of spam
recorded in there.)

I've just set postfix to drop anything from that host at SMTP
time, but I doubt it's going to work. I think they've found a
cannon to annoy debian-user subscribers with.

-dsr-


Why we don't have this?
https://forum.manjaro.org/

We still use e-mail list, prone to spam and abuse, technology from 30
years ago?
Isn't it time to switch to online forums? It's not that Debian haven't
got the money, right?



Mony is not evrything, it is true that some forums let you reply to a
post via e-mail but forums will never be as flexible and/or accessible
than e-mails.

Sometime what is old is not a bad idea.

--
John Doe

Re: Then it happened to me...

[Alexander V. Makartsev]

On 10.10.2021 12:33, piorunz wrote:

On 08/10/2021 18:10, Dan Ritter wrote:


It just happened to me.

I think this is actually an attack on debian-user.

Nothing in my mail logs (and, believe me, there's a lot of spam
recorded in there.)

I've just set postfix to drop anything from that host at SMTP
time, but I doubt it's going to work. I think they've found a
cannon to annoy debian-user subscribers with.

-dsr-


Why we don't have this?
https://forum.manjaro.org/

We still use e-mail list, prone to spam and abuse, technology from 30
years ago?
Isn't it time to switch to online forums? It's not that Debian haven't
got the money, right?
I don't think forums are better or superior in any aspect. They are just 
a different way of communication.
Forums require much more effort in terms of maintenance, security and 
prone to spam and abuse too.

If forums are your thing, go ahead: https://forums.debian.net/

--
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄

Re: Then it happened to me...

[piorunz]

On 08/10/2021 18:10, Dan Ritter wrote:


It just happened to me.

I think this is actually an attack on debian-user.

Nothing in my mail logs (and, believe me, there's a lot of spam
recorded in there.)

I've just set postfix to drop anything from that host at SMTP
time, but I doubt it's going to work. I think they've found a
cannon to annoy debian-user subscribers with.

-dsr-


Why we don't have this?
https://forum.manjaro.org/

We still use e-mail list, prone to spam and abuse, technology from 30
years ago?
Isn't it time to switch to online forums? It's not that Debian haven't
got the money, right?

--
With kindest regards, Piotr.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄

Re: Then it happened to me...

[Reco]

Hi.

On Fri, Oct 08, 2021 at 01:10:58PM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> It just happened to me.

And it still happens.

Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2021 06:51:51 + (UTC)
From: debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org
To: recovery...@enotuniq.net
Subject: You have been removed from the list


> I've just set postfix to drop anything from that host at SMTP
> time, but I doubt it's going to work.

Similar approach did not work for me. I got removed from the list
nevertheless.

Reco