Re: win95files names
On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Antonio Rodriguez wrote: How should I mount a win9* system, so that I can read the full file name without the funny ~1 thing? I have tried mount -t msdos , but this truncates the name to *~1. Try mount -t vfat instead of msdos.
Passwordless ssh?
Can someone tell me how to enable passwordless ssh under potato? (ssh 1.2.26) This is for the purpose of backups. I have public key of the machine which is doing the connecting in the backup user's authorized keys file, and the user that is doing the connecting is in the backup user's .shosts file. However, the machine always insists on asking for a password. There are similarly configured machines around here already, so this should work...am I missing some PAM settings or something?
gcc in potato
I am not sure where to complain about this...it probably isn't Debian's
problem, it is probably the new gcc. The newest gcc in potato:
gcc version 2.95.2 19990906 (prerelease)
Seems to be pretty damn buggy. There is a great store of code I have that
compiled under the last one I used:
gcc version egcs-2.91.66 Debian GNU/Linux (egcs-1.1.2 release)
That won't compile under the new one. For instance, this assembly
function won't compile under 2.95.2, but is fine under 2.91.66:
/* Read the pentium Time Stamp Counter register */
unsigned long long read_TSC()
{
static union {
unsigned long dw[2];
unsigned long long counter;
} tc;
__asm__ __volatile__ (
.byte 0x0f, 0x31\n
:d= (tc.dw[1]), a= (tc.dw[0]):
:%eax, %edx
);
return tc.counter;
}
And I get this error:
arch.c: In function `read_TSC':
arch.c:30: warning: output constraint `=' for operand 0 is not at the
beginning
arch.c:30: warning: output constraint `=' for operand 1 is not at the
beginning
arch.c:30: Invalid `asm' statement:
arch.c:30: fixed or forbidden register 0 (ax) was spilled for class AREG.
make: *** [arch.o] Error 1
Should I just give up and use the gcc272 package?
Re: Admin group?
On Tue, 19 Oct 1999, Pollywog wrote: On 19-Oct-99 Phil Brutsche wrote: A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far way, someone said... Ultimately, I want to have 2 accounts for myself (1 being root, the other being a normal user.) I also would like to create a few accounts for friends. My normal user account will be added to the member of the adm group. Questions: 1) What is the best way to prevent other users (except for my normal user) from running programs like dmesg? I suppose I could always chgrp the programs to adm, and change permissions to -rwxr-x---. Is this the recommended way? dmesg is not suid root...so the users can get that information themselves without dmesg, or compile their own copy of dmesg. There isn't much point in changing the permissions on dmesg. It is only on binaries that are suid and provide some special priveledges that this is useful.
bash problem
Well, my mirror appears to have stopped updating about a week ago, so when I told a few machines to do an apt-get dist-upgrade they all barfed on the broken bash package. (The mirror had not upgraded my local copy to the fixed bash package...) Is there any easy way to recover these things without rebooting? dpkg does not seem to work...I guess I just have to go the rescue disk route, huh?
Re: Tools to generate X interface for programs
On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, David Teague wrote: Carl, Others: What tools does Debian have to generate X windows interface for programs? More than I can count. Then again, I only have ten fingers...:) There are many toolkits for making X apps. A while ago I learned Tcl/Tk, and really liked Tk, but I didn't like Tcl that much. Just recently I realized that Tk is available for Perl! Perl/Tk is great, I'm hooked. Of course, the tool you use depends heavily on the job at hand. Could you give us more info on what you would like to do?
pthreads man pages?
Where are the pthreads man pages for potato? The pthread libraries and such seem to be in libc6 and libc6-dev. Is this a package bug?
Re: BE MORE SIMPLE!!!!
On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, E.L. Meijer (Eric) wrote: Debian installation manual is not at all the worst one. It is quite good actually. But it definetely isn't easy to find on the website instructions how to get started... This is getting on my nerves... * go to www.debian.org * note the section `Getting Started', which is the second below `What is Debian' * actually _read_ this section (all of both sentences), and discover you need to click on the link Release information in this section. * click * Note the header `New Installations', and the links Install Manual for SPARC Install Manual for Intel x86 Install Manual for Alpha Install Manual for Motorola 680x0 below it. * click on, say `Install Manual for Intel x86' (if that is what you want) * you now find yourself reading the installation manual All this involves *two* clicks from the main debian pages, and reading maybe 30 lines of text. If this `definitely not easy' for someone, I figure this person needs to acquire some more basic computer skills before attempting to install anything at all on their computer. You don't see the problem here? These links are more or less embedded in the pages and less than obvious. I count at least three clicks to even begin to find info on how to get Debian. Not to mention, once you find the Installing Debian GNU/Linux 2.1 For Intel x86 page, you have to read 20 pages before you even find out what to download! Its section 5 where it even begins to say how to get Debian! At this point, I'd just like to mention that I am very well experienced with Linux, and I have absolutely no problem installing Debian. But around here they call me the local Linux expert. I just helped a friend where in the research lab where I work install Debian on his computer. This is a guy who uses Solaris every day, and know Xemacs inside and out. He's an intelligent, and very computer literate person. Yet it took him quite a while to just find out what the hell he needed to download! If it weren't for him having someone like me there, he would have just gotten fed up and gone with Red Hat. Without a doubt, the installation instructions on the web need reorganization. On the top bar or the page, one of the buttons should be Install Debian or Get Debian. It should very plainly give the exact steps to get started with installing Debian. The Intro under the Distribution link is a good start, but the rest of that page leaves the newbie confused. After the Intro should be sections describing where to get the floppies, and how to make them. This should be a SHORT simple page. After telling them how to make the floppies and telling them the next step is to insert the rescue floppy into the drive, it could THEN refer them to the longer and more detailed Installing Debian GNU/Linux 2.1 For whatever arch document. I think my point is that the meat of the info is buried way to far in the site. Even intelligent people find it difficult to find, its only us experienced Debian users that don't have a problem with it. Besides, the web pages have to be revised to use the official logo anyway. :)
Re: I am impressed with Debian!
It is probably just the updatedb running, to update the database for the locate command. It walks through the entire filesystem, so thats why the disk runs for so long. :) On Tue, 8 Jun 1999, Martin Waller wrote: It's happened to me before (under hamm, but not slink) and it was find running. I don't why it ran find but it was a pain in the ass. I haven't had the problem for a while. May be there's some process running that lokks for something in a default loctaion and then if it can't get it there forks a find to try to locate it. I suspected TkDesk when this happened to me, but that could have been unfounded. caveat: this may have nothing to do with the problem you have! Martin From: Gregory Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Patrick Colbeck [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: Barry Kauler [EMAIL PROTECTED], debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: I am not impressed with Debian so far. Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 09:45:51 -0500 Patrick Colbeck wrote: Hey, my hard drive did the sudden thrashing thing last night too. Its never done it before (well it has in NT but not in Linux). All I was doing was reading mail remotely over a dialup line using xemacs in a kterm in KDE 1.1.1 (from snowcrash). It stopped after a while (about 4 minutes) and has been fine since. This never happened before in RedHat or with Hamm. Is this a KDE thing perhaps ?. I am running on an AST M series Laptop which has 48Mb ram and a 2GB Linux partition with about 1300MB free and a 92MB swap file. Pat -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null It sounds like a 'cron' job was running. -- Gregory Wood Farsight Computer 1219 W University Blvd Odessa TX 79764 Voice: 1-915-335-0879 CT Pioneers Board Member Novell CNE Appgen VAR -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null
Re: CD Burner
On Thu, 27 May 1999, The FreeStuff Web Ring wrote: I have a Sony 928 CD Burner. I'm being told by my computer that it has 384kb of buffer cache, anyone know why it's saying such a weird number? 128kb X 3 Not too weird, I've seen it before. Not a power of 2, so its not one of my favorite numbers, but it'll do. :) One of my friends has a different burner, but his says he has 512kb buffer cache. The FreeStuff Web Ring [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://chebucto.ns.ca/~fsweb/ -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null
Re: CD Burner
On 27 May 1999, Arcady Genkin wrote: The FreeStuff Web Ring [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have a Sony 928 CD Burner. I'm being told by my computer that it has 384kb of buffer cache, anyone know why it's saying such a weird number? One of my friends has a different burner, but his says he has 512kb buffer cache. Just to add to everybody's whining, I should say that I haven't been able to get my CDR (Panasonic 7502 SCSI) working for about 6 weeks now. Yes, Me Too (tm), I have to boot into Windows to burn CDs and scan. Lucky I don't play games. ;^) Whats the problem? You know the device name is /dev/scd* for a SCSI CDROM drive, and not /dev/sd*, right? Hoping for a better day, when I'll be able to get rid of those FatXX partitions, -- Arcady Genkin ... without money one gets nothing in this world, not even a certificate of eternal blessedness in the other world... (S. Kierkegaard) -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null
Re: Ethernet identification
On Tue, 25 May 1999, Paulo Henrique Baptista de Oliveira wrote: Hello, all, the people here at the department have bought a software (proprietary) usually available for Unix platforms. We've got their Solaris and Linux version. For the Solaris they asked us the hostid to put somewhere in the code and avoid piracy. But the Debian GNU/Linux machines doesn't respond to this command. So they asked us the following: I will only need the ethernet card number in the following format: 00:00:00 . (10 characters) Have somebody there anu idea on how I get this number by a simple promptline command? Sure, just use ifconfig. Its not in a normal user's path by default, you can run it like: /sbin/ifconfig Under the ethernet device you want, there will be a HWaddr. Thats the number you want.
Re: Bus error in Netscape
On Sat, 22 May 1999, George Bonser wrote: On Sat, 22 May 1999, Michelle Coelho wrote: what I get: bash-2.01$ netscape Netscape: Ignoring unsupported netscape contenttype in user mailcap file. Warning: Cannot allocate colormap entry for default background Warning: Cannot allocate colormap entry for default background Bus error bash-2.01$ Anyone has any suggestions??? Try starting it as root with: netscape --allow-root And see if it works. Sounds dangerous...doesn't a bus error mean that the app tried to write into kernel space memory? If so, wouldn't giving it root access allow it to overwrite kernel memory and crash the system?
Re: Bus error in Netscape
On Sat, 22 May 1999, George Bonser wrote: On Sat, 22 May 1999, Christopher J. Morrone wrote: Sounds dangerous...doesn't a bus error mean that the app tried to write into kernel space memory? If so, wouldn't giving it root access allow it to overwrite kernel memory and crash the system? Not dangerous at all. It will still not be allowed to write to kernel protected space (root is still a user). I have had this problem with the Netscape 4.6 on one of my systems, it will not run as a regular users (gets a bus error) but works fine as root. This is the communicator-smotif. If I simply run the navigator portion, it works fine as a user. Communicator will only run as root for me on that system with is pretty much potato. Mmm...I still don't like running a misbehaving program as root. :)
Re: sshd
On Fri, 14 May 1999, Ben Collins wrote: On Fri, May 14, 1999 at 08:28:54AM +0200, scratch wrote: On Thu, 13 May 1999, Christopher J. Morrone wrote: Yes, I do plan on logging into the laptop remotely. And I don't want to remove the daemon from the startup...I just don't want it to pause for 5 minutes when there is no network. :) Why exactly does sshd freeze on startup, is it trying to do a DNS lookup or something? If I'm right, it's probably generating an RSA key. This is not only done on startup though. OTOH, one would think this would be a background process, and you shouldn't wait for it at bootup. I never noticed such a freeze personally. Generating the RSA is a background process. I just thought about something though, what address do you have it binding to in /etc/ssh/sshd_config? It should be 0.0.0.0. Yeah, I don't think that is the cause. The best suggestion so far has been that its actually the daemon after ssh that is causing the pause. (Which might be xntpd...) And actually, it does seem to be the ntpdate entry in /etc/init.d/xntp3 that is casuing the pause now. (Although I could have sworn it was stopping after it printed Starting Secure Shell server: before..)
sshd
I have Debian running on a laptop that I just purchased, and I have ssh installed. However, since this is a laptop, its not always connected to the network...is there some easy way to keep sshd from pausing the boot sequence for 5 minutes if there is no network?
Re: sshd
On Thu, 13 May 1999, Collins M. Ben wrote: On Thu, May 13, 1999 at 12:01:42PM -0400, Christopher J. Morrone wrote: I have Debian running on a laptop that I just purchased, and I have ssh installed. However, since this is a laptop, its not always connected to the network...is there some easy way to keep sshd from pausing the boot sequence for 5 minutes if there is no network? If you don't want sshd running at all you can just do: update-rc.d -f ssh remove This will remove the links in /etc/rc?.d but leaves the /etc/init.d/ssh script. You will need to run `/etc/init.d/ssh start` to start sshd manually, but you wont need that unless you plan on logging _into_ the laptop. Yes, I do plan on logging into the laptop remotely. And I don't want to remove the daemon from the startup...I just don't want it to pause for 5 minutes when there is no network. :) Why exactly does sshd freeze on startup, is it trying to do a DNS lookup or something?
Re: Linux experts
On Fri, 30 Apr 1999, Brian Schramm wrote: OK, now I have your attention. I want to set up an ocational private connection between work and home acrosed the net. I have ssh on both computers but I do not know if that is all I need. I will be using it to transfer files and do manual configuration mostly. Since I will be working with root privlages I do not want anyone to see what I am typeing. Is ssh all I need or is there an easier way to do this? Remember, I have no I couldn't possibly get much easier than that! Just install the debian ssh package and you are good to go. For file transer you can use the scp command from the ssh package. ssh even encrypts the X connections that are piped through it. You can pipe all kinds of connections through ssh if you really want to get in to it... So yeah, just install ssh.
Re: /etc/export
On Sat, 24 Apr 1999, Johan Pettersson wrote: Hi! how do you update /etc/export, whitout restart the computer ? Use a text editor. :) After you make a change, just run (as root of course): /etc/init.d/nfs-server restart
Re: MICROSOFT BS FUD
On 14 Apr 1999, Gary L. Hennigan wrote: Kenneth Scharf [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | There already has been feedback on the web (and this list) about this. | It does appear that a great effort was made to pull all the stops out | in configuring NT, and little care was given to setting up Linux. IE: | use of a kerenl with know network bugs, none of apache's optimizations | turned on... | | --- Rick Macdonald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Kenneth Scharf wrote: | | Well it finally happened. Microsoft has paid | someone off to fix a | benchmark showing that Windows NT is actually | better than linux. | | | http://www.mindcraft.com/whitepapers/nts4rhlinux.html | | This doesn't look good. Are the results cooked or | flawed, or the | configuration not optimal? Or is it true? You guys need to read your Slashdot (http://slashdot.org). I've heard that this particular benchmark was commissioned by Microsoft. Anyone who pays attention to a benchmark commissioned by one of the interested parties deserves what they get. Well, while I agree with that, this is already being read and believed by managers and suits. What we need are numbers to the contrary, not it was commisioned by Microsoft. Of course, its not likely that anyone in the free software movement will be able to verify the results, because they used pretty expensive machinery. A four processor Xeon as the server, and 144 pentium test nodes with ethernet switches.
new apt
I installed the newest apt, and now the ftp method appears to be missing. I'd rather not have to set up a web server just to use apt on the local machines...was that an oversight?
Re: new apt
On Fri, 19 Mar 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: *- On 19 Mar, Christopher J. Morrone wrote about new apt I installed the newest apt, and now the ftp method appears to be missing. I'd rather not have to set up a web server just to use apt on the local machines...was that an oversight? No. Apt 0.3.0 did NOT have ftp just because the ftp method hadn't been migrated to the new apt from the 0.1.9 versions. The new apt 0.3.2 has ftp support, it is in incoming mirrors and will be moved to unstable/admin. Cool.
Re: Screen Capture Program
On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, eric Farris wrote: How can i capture a (fullscreen/window/rectangle) of my X desktop and save it as a file? it's time for me to show off WindowMaker to those less fortunate than i. I have xwpick, but it doesn't work with TrueColor. i'm running 1280x1024x32bits. Anyone have/know of a program that can accomplish this? is it built into the X server somehow? I know that gimp has a screen capture option. Xtns-Screen Shot. xv can also do it with the Grab button.
Re: Enlightenment 0.15 .debs
On Sat, 13 Mar 1999, Brian Almeida wrote: Enlightenment 0.15 .debs are out. They will not be uploaded into the distribution, they are placed in the GNOME staging area. This is so that Where's the GNOME staging area? For those of us who like to live dangerously...
Re: Gnome 1.0 debs?
On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 3/10/99 6:44:38 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Are there Gnome 1.0 debs yet? I haven't tried Gnome yet. 1.0 seems like the place to start. Ya know, I don't want to offend any of the developers or anything, but I'm curious about something... Why is it that Debian is always the last to get packages for any given product? When KDE came out, rpms were right around the corner. This seems to be an ongoing trend... Is it just because the Debian group is so quality concious? I don't really think that KDE is the best example. For quite a while, KDE wasn't packaged because of the licensing issues. Keep in mind that there is a whole staff of full time people working on Red Hat, while Debian developers are volunteering their scarce free time.
Re: PLEASE READ! IMPORTANT! ALL THE MEMBERS! PLEASE READ!
On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Steve Lamb wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:56:00 -0800, Nuno Donato wrote: Yes that's it! A message board it's much easier to use and you don't have hundred of e-mails in you Inbox every day. So I will wait you all there. See ya! Uhm, no web based message board is as easy to use as email, period, end of discussion. Agreed. I think that he just needs an introduction into the wonderful world of maill filtering. procmail is our friend.
Re: modem user
On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Fethi A. Okyar wrote: [cut] I spent a couple hours for the configuration, and figuring which jumper switches to use, my modem is using ttyS3. By the way does anybody think it would be easier to use the PnP mode, rather than hardwiring to COM3,IRQ4 ? The problem I'm having right now, is I can only run programs such as minicom or seyon, when I have root privilages ! I tried creating a symbolic link to /dev/ttyS3, called it /dev/modem, and even when I used this ordinary users still cannot access the modem. Help will greatly be appreciated ! [cut] Sounds like you just aren't in the group that can access the /dev/ttyS* files. Try running, as root, adduser USERNAME dialout (subsitute the user's actual username in for USERNAME, of course). That should give that user access to the serial ports. If you want the user to be able to start ppp, also do adduser USERNAME dip.
RE: PGP question
On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Pollywog wrote: On 23-Feb-99 Stephen Pitts wrote: Reply-To: This is just out of curiosity..not meant to be flamebait :-) Those of you who PGP sign your messages, why do you do it? I've looked into getting PGP several times, and I have a PGP- compliant mail-reader, but is there any advantage in signing your messages? On many lists, people will get annoyed by the sigs, almost as though one had used HTML. That is why I quit doing it :) I don't really think PGP signatures are that bad. Some people get annoyed when they can't figure out how to read the signature... The reason that PGP signatures are used is so that you can verify that the email REALLY came from the person that signed it. An email is rediculously easy to fake, while a PGP signature is virtually impossible to falsify.
includes?
I am pretty sure that I have seen this discussed in the past, but I can't seem to find it in the mailing list archives. What is the deal with the include directories? My specific problem is that I am trying to install the 2.0.36 kernel, with a Pentium performance counter patch from the Beowulf project. Now I made the patch, and used make-kpkg to build the kernel-headers and installed that. The perf patches have an additional header file, which did appear in the /usr/src/linux sym linked directory which was installed from the header package that I just created. But when I try to build the perf patch library, it can't find that header file! And then I realized that /usr/include has no links to /usr/src/linux. So what is the point in installing header packages? What am I missing? How are these header files supposed to be accessed by users at compile time? (Please CC to me directly, I'm not on the list any more; mail server problems.) --- Christopher J. Morrone(302)831-1257 Computer Architecture and Parallel Fax: (302)831-0752 Systems Laboratory, University of Delaware [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: enlightenment
On Wed, 14 Oct 1998, Chris Fury wrote: Christopher J. Morrone wrote: How do I start the enlightment window manager under Debian? I have tried all kinds of .xinitrc, .xsession files but I just don't seem to be getting it right, my old fvwm2 manager still starts up... chmod 754 ~/.xsession if you're using xdm, chmod 754 ~/.xinitrc if you're using startx. This ensures that the eXecutable file permission is set, otherwise it won't be run as a script[1]. I just figured this one out myself. I just kept staring and staring at it. Why wouldn't it work! Aggh! :) Oh, they have to be executable...geez. I must be working too hard... [1] for those interested, it's run by a start up script: /etc/X11/Xsession -- balderdash.
enlightenment
How do I start the enlightment window manager under Debian? I have tried all kinds of .xinitrc, .xsession files but I just don't seem to be getting it right, my old fvwm2 manager still starts up...
Re: masqdialer
On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Stephen A. Witt wrote: On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Christopher J. Morrone wrote: Has anyone gotten masqdialer to work with a Debian dist? I currently have a debian box set up to do IP masquerading, and I use the Debian pon and poff to start and stop the PPP dial-up connection. First of all, is there an easy way to make pon and poff executable by everyone? (Or maybe only certain people?) And is there then an easy way to just have masqdialer use the Debian pon and poff? I don't know what masqdialer is but an alternative way to do what I think you want is with diald. This is described in a couple of mini howto's and is, if I dare make this claim, sort of the standard way to asynchronously access a dialup line without having to manually establish the connection (with pon, for example). I have a small network at home with a Debian box Unfortunately, we only have a single phone line in my apartment, so manually establishing the connection is exactly what I want. I don't want random packets causing my modem to dial out. :)
masqdialer
Has anyone gotten masqdialer to work with a Debian dist? I currently have a debian box set up to do IP masquerading, and I use the Debian pon and poff to start and stop the PPP dial-up connection. First of all, is there an easy way to make pon and poff executable by everyone? (Or maybe only certain people?) And is there then an easy way to just have masqdialer use the Debian pon and poff?
rsh with root?
I have a linux cluster (a beowulf), and I want to be able to use rsh with root to the nodes. I found the CONSOLE line in /etc/login.defs and commented it out. Now root is allowed to rsh in to the machines, but I can't, for the life of me, figure out how to allow root to rsh in without a passwd. I added the machines in the cluster into the /etc/hosts.equiv file, and now everyonw but root can rsh between nodes without a password. What am I missing for root? (I need this esp. for rdist and such.)
Re: Stupid IP Configuration Question
On Sat, 15 Aug 1998, Frederic Breitwieser wrote: My apologies for asking probably the dumbest question, but staring at the monitor isn't helping :) No apology necessary. When I re-installed 2.0 (hamm) from scratch, I enabled a PPP connection, dialed, downloaded everything, configured, and all is swell (not bad for a Compaq 4/50 Prolinea). Anyway, now im trying to enable my eth0 card. The 3c509 driver is loaded, I can see it with lsmod. But, I looked at the /etc/networks file and I wasn't sure where to add the ip address/netmask for the eth0 card. You want the /etc/init.d/network file. Should be pretty easy to figure out that file. If not, just ask.
Second ethernet card
I was wondering where I should set up the configuration for my second ethernet card. I have two ethernet cards, both PCI and Tulip chipset, which are currently detected just fine during bootup. I set up the ethernet networking like normal during the Debian installation, and it works fine. What I want to do now is enable the second ethernet card. (This computer is essentially node 0 for a beowulf, and the other nodes do not need to access the outside world, so I don't believe that I need any type of ip forwarding.) So I basically just want to know where I should put my custom configuration for the second ethernet card. Should I just add it to the /etc/init.d/network file? Or is there a better place to put the configuration? Thanks! (Please Cc the response to me, I was knocked off the debian-user list because our server was bouncing too many messages.)
