Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 10:55:02PM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote: And yet me getting-old laptop is still snappy. I think it's more that MSO is written in absurdly-tuned C assembler, whereas OOo is portable C++ Java. Actually, MSO is written in a high-level language. I forget which, but it's not .NET. They do that because there are a lot of bugs, and their support contracts with large firms means that they have to address those bugs. There was a great article on it on some MSDN blog about a year or two ago. Also, I vaguely remember Joel on Software talking about the anatomy of a Word bug. An interesting read: http://www.vanwensveen.nl/rants/microsoft/IhateMS.html -- Chris. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100320124336.gd4...@fischer
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On Wed,17.Mar.10, 16:44:17, Ron Johnson wrote: Enough DDs are sufficiently practical for there to be a non-free tree, and Christian Marillat does yeoman's work with http://www.debian-multimedia.org/. Most of the stuff there is DFSG-free, but infringes some patents. Regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On Thu,18.Mar.10, 03:07:12, Dotan Cohen wrote: Therefore, I have no problem with proprietary Flash, even though I understand the problems that it causes. I wish that more proprietary software, such as Solidworks and MS Office, were available for Debian or Linux in general. Is there any real life functionality of MS Office that OpenOffice.org is not providing? My experience is that more than 90% of the users would be happy with Abiword+Gnumeric. But, as much as I hate to admit it, I'm aware that there are some applications that will not have free (as in free speech) replacements very soon. I'm thinking of Autocad and Photoshop[1] in particular. My only hope here is that as soon as GNU/Linux will have a big enough user-base (30%?) the respective companies will provide native GNU/Linux versions themselves. [1] no, Gimp is no Photoshop replacement for professional use Regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On Wed,17.Mar.10, 22:23:24, Stephen Powell wrote: I can only speak for myself. I am a Linux user and system administrator. I am not a Debian package maintainer or Debian developer. I *STRONGLY* prefer free (as in freedom and as in price) software over non-free software. But I'm just pragmatic enough that I want it to work. If there was a reliable, stable, free flash plugin, I'd use it. But there's just too many flash sequences that the free stuff can't handle properly. At least not yet. If web sites didn't use this stuff, then we Linux users wouldn't have to worry about it. But they do. And as much as I hate flash, I am forced to deal with it. And I want something that works. The it works feature is the most important feature to me. As soon as free software has that characteristic, I use it and dump the proprietary stuff. But it has to get there first. That's my two cents worth. +1 I'm even prepared to test more experimental software on my own hardware (were I can deal with the issues), but wouldn't do this on other machines I maintain (I don't even have physical access to them). One such example will be (I hope) nouveau. I'll (try to) use it as soon as it is co-installable with nvidia-glx[1], but don't have the time and/or expertise to compile it myself from source. [1] currently xserver-xorg-video-nouveau conflicts with nvidia-glx but I need the later for the VDPAU support and the weekly Heroes of Newerth party ;) Regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On 18/03/2010 09:41, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Thu,18.Mar.10, 03:07:12, Dotan Cohen wrote: Therefore, I have no problem with proprietary Flash, even though I understand the problems that it causes. I wish that more proprietary software, such as Solidworks and MS Office, were available for Debian or Linux in general. Is there any real life functionality of MS Office that OpenOffice.org is not providing? My experience is that more than 90% of the users would be happy with Abiword+Gnumeric. The problem is collaboration. There are quite a few word documents that don't open properly in open office (hebrew usually typesets wrong, math doesn't work at all ...) Powerpoint files are also a complete mess in openoffice. Personally though I use lyx for anything I can get away with. Luckily in university mathematics no one knows word. Almost everyone apart for a few students that haven't converted yet use latex. But, as much as I hate to admit it, I'm aware that there are some applications that will not have free (as in free speech) replacements very soon. I'm thinking of Autocad and Photoshop[1] in particular. My only hope here is that as soon as GNU/Linux will have a big enough user-base (30%?) the respective companies will provide native GNU/Linux versions themselves. [1] no, Gimp is no Photoshop replacement for professional use definitely true Regards, Andrei -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4ba1e1fb.2010...@post.tau.ac.il
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On 2010-03-18 02:41, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Thu,18.Mar.10, 03:07:12, Dotan Cohen wrote: Therefore, I have no problem with proprietary Flash, even though I understand the problems that it causes. I wish that more proprietary software, such as Solidworks and MS Office, were available for Debian or Linux in general. Is there any real life functionality of MS Office that OpenOffice.org is not providing? My experience is that more than 90% of the users would be happy with Abiword+Gnumeric. For home users, you're right. It's in the professional world where it suffers. The main problem is all the 3rd party applications written specifically for Word and Excel which have no analog in the OOo world. Also is the tight integration w/ other MSFT products like SQL Server, Exchange and SharePoint. There are slso some functions in Excel that are missing from OOo Calc, and Presentation probably isn't as full-featured as Powerpoint. Lastly, Excel, Word, IE Lookout just launch faster than Calc, Write, FF Tbird. I'd suffer though Tbird's bloat if it had a *direct* (not OWA) interface to AD, Exchange email and calendar, but there isn't. -- Obsession with preserving cultural heritage is a racist impediment to moral, physical and intellectual progress. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4ba1e438.9010...@cox.net
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On Thu,18.Mar.10, 03:28:40, Ron Johnson wrote: The main problem is all the 3rd party applications written specifically for Word and Excel which have no analog in the OOo world. Interesting, I didn't come across such things in my company Also is the tight integration w/ other MSFT products like SQL Server, Exchange and SharePoint. There are slso some functions in Excel that are missing from OOo Calc, and Presentation probably isn't as full-featured as Powerpoint. Are those features *really* needed? (just asking, I don't have much experience here) Lastly, Excel, Word, IE Lookout just launch faster than Calc, Write, FF Tbird. That's too bad. I'd suffer though Tbird's bloat if it had a *direct* (not OWA) interface to AD, Exchange email and calendar, but there isn't. Did you try evolution-mapi? I didn't get to it (yet). Regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On 2010-03-18 03:41, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Thu,18.Mar.10, 03:28:40, Ron Johnson wrote: The main problem is all the 3rd party applications written specifically for Word and Excel which have no analog in the OOo world. Interesting, I didn't come across such things in my company Also is the tight integration w/ other MSFT products like SQL Server, Exchange and SharePoint. There are slso some functions in Excel that are missing from OOo Calc, and Presentation probably isn't as full-featured as Powerpoint. Are those features *really* needed? (just asking, I don't have much experience here) I work in a *large* company. Someone must use them, or the companies that make them wouldn't be in business. Especially the companies that make financially-oriented apps for bean counters. Lastly, Excel, Word, IE Lookout just launch faster than Calc, Write, FF Tbird. That's too bad. I'd suffer though Tbird's bloat if it had a *direct* (not OWA) interface to AD, Exchange email and calendar, but there isn't. Did you try evolution-mapi? I didn't get to it (yet). I mean on my work PC running Windows. -- Obsession with preserving cultural heritage is a racist impediment to moral, physical and intellectual progress. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4ba1f8e4.6090...@cox.net
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
2010/3/18 Micha mi...@post.tau.ac.il: There are quite a few word documents that don't open properly in open office (hebrew usually typesets wrong, math doesn't work at all ...) Please comment on this issue: http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=105270 -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/880dece01003180319y677a052bt6cc072786e5ec...@mail.gmail.com
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On 3/17/2010 9:03 PM, Neal Hogan wrote: Most (if not all) software has some sort of license, like use as you'd like but make sure you tell the next person the same (BSD . . .as I understand it). However, Flash is not just a set of words . . . to use Adobe software without paying for it is stealing . . . money . . . no? No. Flash player is distributed free-of-cost by Adobe. What costs is the Flash developer tools, not the player. But can a purist accept such support and be a true linux user? Linux is not synonymous with free. Debian is not synonymous with Stallman. Please keep these facts in mind. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4ba20043.9090...@allums.com
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On 3/17/2010 9:23 PM, Stephen Powell wrote: 1 But I'm just pragmatic enough that I want it to work. If there was a reliable, stable, free flash plugin, I'd use it. But there's just too many flash sequences that the free stuff can't handle properly. At least not yet. If web sites didn't use this stuff, then we Linux users wouldn't have to worry about it. But they do. And as much as I hate flash, I am forced to deal with it. And I want something that works. The it works feature is the most important feature to me. As soon as free software has that characteristic, I use it and dump the proprietary stuff. But it has to get there first. That's my two cents worth. This. MAA Update: With both Gnash and Flash installed (ughhh), Chrome displays Flash video. I don't know whether it Gnash or Flash running, however. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4ba20129.5060...@allums.com
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 5:28 AM, Mark Allums m...@allums.com wrote: On 3/17/2010 9:03 PM, Neal Hogan wrote: Most (if not all) software has some sort of license, like use as you'd like but make sure you tell the next person the same (BSD . . .as I understand it). However, Flash is not just a set of words . . . to use Adobe software without paying for it is stealing . . . money . . . no? No. Flash player is distributed free-of-cost by Adobe. What costs is the Flash developer tools, not the player. But can a purist accept such support and be a true linux user? Linux is not synonymous with free. Debian is not synonymous with Stallman. Please keep these facts in mind. Sure . . . I was just curious to get some particular responses from users. Thanks. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/ab7b49bc1003180435w1a67f14cg70eb068f765ce...@mail.gmail.com
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On 3/18/2010 6:35 AM, Neal Hogan wrote: On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 5:28 AM, Mark Allumsm...@allums.com wrote: On 3/17/2010 9:03 PM, Neal Hogan wrote: Most (if not all) software has some sort of license, like use as you'd like but make sure you tell the next person the same (BSD . . .as I understand it). However, Flash is not just a set of words . . . to use Adobe software without paying for it is stealing . . . money . . . no? No. Flash player is distributed free-of-cost by Adobe. What costs is the Flash developer tools, not the player. But can a purist accept such support and be a true linux user? Linux is not synonymous with free. Debian is not synonymous with Stallman. Please keep these facts in mind. Sure . . . I was just curious to get some particular responses from users. Thanks. In other words, you were trolling. Troll. MAA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4ba21382.7010...@allums.com
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
But can a purist accept such support and be a true linux user? Linux is not synonymous with free. Debian is not synonymous with Stallman. Please keep these facts in mind. Sure . . . I was just curious to get some particular responses from users. Thanks. In other words, you were trolling. Troll. MAA If that's what you want to call it/me, fine. I will say that I was genuiously curious and did appreciate your response. Those that responded cleared things up for me. You may have noticed that my initial question recognised that I may come across as a troll. I didn't want to start a whole liscencing thread . . . and that's not what happened. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/ab7b49bc1003180533o6061b91amfcc4d46cddc4...@mail.gmail.com
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 09:28:49 +0200 Andrei Popescu andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed,17.Mar.10, 16:44:17, Ron Johnson wrote: Enough DDs are sufficiently practical for there to be a non-free tree, and Christian Marillat does yeoman's work with http://www.debian-multimedia.org/. Most of the stuff there is DFSG-free, but infringes some patents. Interesting. From the DFSG FAQ: Some software might infringe patents in jurisdictions in which so-called software patents are allowed. Even though only end users actually run the software, and distributors do not in fact actually engage in the patented process, distributors might be held liable in such a jurisdiction. Debian makes no serious attempt to check for patent violations, and handles this issue in a haphazard and case-by-case fashion. (In fact, checking for this is in practice impossible. If everyone checked for software patents, all software production would grind to a halt.) http://people.debian.org/~bap/dfsg-faq.html So apparently the stuff could actually be included in the official archive, without violating the social contract? Celejar -- foffl.sourceforge.net - Feeds OFFLine, an offline RSS/Atom aggregator mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100318090642.50c813ca.cele...@gmail.com
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
So apparently the stuff could actually be included in the official archive, without violating the social contract? No, there is a difference between checking all software for possible patent infringement and including known offenders. But the line is grey, to be sure. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/880dece01003180610i482dff11r34b7f57620f4...@mail.gmail.com
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:19:07 +0200 Micha mi...@post.tau.ac.il wrote: ... The problem is collaboration. There are quite a few word documents that don't open properly in open office (hebrew usually typesets wrong, math doesn't work at all ...) Powerpoint files are also a complete mess in openoffice. Personally though I use lyx for anything I can get away with. Luckily in university mathematics no one knows word. Almost everyone apart for a few students that haven't converted yet use latex. Hm, I've had sort of the opposite experience. Hebrew stuff usually works fine for me with OO, but I've reluctantly had to give up LyX for mixed Hebrew / English document creation, due to its brokenness: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=516017 http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=516020 Celejar -- foffl.sourceforge.net - Feeds OFFLine, an offline RSS/Atom aggregator mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100318091208.12dfe308.cele...@gmail.com
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
Hm, I've had sort of the opposite experience. Hebrew stuff usually works fine for me with OO, but I've reluctantly had to give up LyX for mixed Hebrew / English document creation, due to its brokenness: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=516017 http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=516020 Thanks, Celejar. I also gave up on Lyx for Hebrew, but I may start filing issues on the Lyx 2.0 branch so that they could fix it in time for release. There does seem to be effort in that regard. It would be great if you could write to the Heb-Bugzap list all RTL (Hebrew and Arabic) and Hebrew bugs that you come across. That will bring it to the attention of the people who can fix it. This is the address: http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/heb-bugzap Thanks! -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/880dece01003180618r6abac046jd725a5b58dccd...@mail.gmail.com
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:18:13 +0200 Dotan Cohen dotanco...@gmail.com wrote: ... Thanks, Celejar. I also gave up on Lyx for Hebrew, but I may start filing issues on the Lyx 2.0 branch so that they could fix it in time for release. There does seem to be effort in that regard. It would be great if you could write to the Heb-Bugzap list all RTL (Hebrew and Arabic) and Hebrew bugs that you come across. That will bring it to the attention of the people who can fix it. This is the address: http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/heb-bugzap Good to know, thanks. Celejar -- foffl.sourceforge.net - Feeds OFFLine, an offline RSS/Atom aggregator mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100318092610.1ca7ac1d.cele...@gmail.com
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:10:55 +0200 Dotan Cohen dotanco...@gmail.com wrote: So apparently the stuff could actually be included in the official archive, without violating the social contract? No, there is a difference between checking all software for possible patent infringement and including known offenders. But the line is grey, to be sure. Hm, I guess you're right: Packages must be placed in non-free if they are not compliant with the DFSG or are encumbered by patents or other legal issues that make their distribution problematic. http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html So anything known to be patent-encumbered can't be in main. Celejar -- foffl.sourceforge.net - Feeds OFFLine, an offline RSS/Atom aggregator mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100318092801.36484cf3.cele...@gmail.com
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
Andrei Popescu: Ron Johnson: Lastly, Excel, Word, IE Lookout just launch faster than Calc, Write, FF Tbird. That's too bad. The comparison is not quite fair, since the former are being preloaded in Windows. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100318174704.ba66dfe6.shiems...@kpnplanet.nl
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
Lastly, Excel, Word, IE Lookout just launch faster than Calc, Write, FF Tbird. That's too bad. The comparison is not quite fair, since the former are being preloaded in Windows. For one thing, you can preload in Linux as well. For users with 2GB RAM or more, I enable the Open Office preloader tray icon. For another thing, go try Open Office 3.2. It loads in half the time (tested, 6 sec vs. 12 sec.) than did Open Office 3.0. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/880dece01003180949t7d3f4fd3y671c97ef1d287...@mail.gmail.com
RE: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
-Original Message- From: Andrei Popescu [mailto:andreimpope...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, 18 March, 2010 00:42 To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...) On Thu,18.Mar.10, 03:28:40, Ron Johnson wrote: The main problem is all the 3rd party applications written specifically for Word and Excel which have no analog in the OOo world. Interesting, I didn't come across such things in my company soapbox Sometimes it is the little things. The ability to have auto-complete turned on, *AND* having a working tab key is found in Excel, but not Calc. The workarounds (using the arrow keys, turning autocomplete off, etc.) impact production for people who use spreadsheets quite often -- i.e. you have to take your hands off of the home row when you're doing a lot of data entry, and when you're reaching for the right arrow key with your little finger it is easy to accidentally hit the up arrow or overshoot and hit the 0 key on the keypad. Or you can take your eyes off of the screen or your source document, forcing the user to reaquire their place after changing the cell. Similarly turning autocomplete off to get the tab key back means extra keystrokes to fill in cells. The OpenOffice.org devs apparently have dug in their heels on this issue, deciding that we won't be like Excel is the correct answer. It is their software, and I'm not a programmer so I can't complain too much. But it does mean that I will have a very difficult time convincing a serious Excel user that Calc is a good substitute -- even if they don't use a lot of VBA Macros, etc. I will work in free (as in speech) software whenever I can at work. Sometimes that's an adventure as we're really a Windows shop. But really the user comes first and the sort of workflow detail like requiring users to take their hands off of the home keys can be a real deal killer for deployments. /soapbox Of course my opinion, not my employer's, and of course I have a lot of respect for the OpenOffice.org team and their work. It is an amazing product and I use OpenOffice.org at home and quite often at work. (Where I turn off auto complete) James -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4a09477d575c2c4b86497161427dd94c149f788...@city-exchange07
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On 2010-03-18 11:47, Sjoerd Hiemstra wrote: Andrei Popescu: Ron Johnson: Lastly, Excel, Word, IE Lookout just launch faster than Calc, Write, FF Tbird. That's too bad. The comparison is not quite fair, since the former are being preloaded in Windows. And yet me getting-old laptop is still snappy. I think it's more that MSO is written in absurdly-tuned C assembler, whereas OOo is portable C++ Java. -- Obsession with preserving cultural heritage is a racist impediment to moral, physical and intellectual progress. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4ba290ab.6030...@cox.net
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
And yet me getting-old laptop is still snappy. I think it's more that MSO is written in absurdly-tuned C assembler, whereas OOo is portable C++ Java. Actually, MSO is written in a high-level language. I forget which, but it's not .NET. They do that because there are a lot of bugs, and their support contracts with large firms means that they have to address those bugs. There was a great article on it on some MSDN blog about a year or two ago. Also, I vaguely remember Joel on Software talking about the anatomy of a Word bug. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/880dece01003181355t5b9c6ed4q3ba2794e5bb5b...@mail.gmail.com
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On 3/18/2010 3:44 PM, Ron Johnson wrote: On 2010-03-18 11:47, Sjoerd Hiemstra wrote: Andrei Popescu: Ron Johnson: Lastly, Excel, Word, IE Lookout just launch faster than Calc, Write, FF Tbird. That's too bad. The comparison is not quite fair, since the former are being preloaded in Windows. And yet me getting-old laptop is still snappy. I think it's more that MSO is written in absurdly-tuned C assembler, whereas OOo is portable C++ Java. MS writes software in a myriad of different languages. Heavily, in ones that use Visual Studio. They are largely eliminating as much Java as they can from OOo, (albeit very slowly) with the exception of the Base database app. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4ba29784.40...@allums.com
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On 2010-03-18 15:55, Dotan Cohen wrote: And yet me getting-old laptop is still snappy. I think it's more that MSO is written in absurdly-tuned C assembler, whereas OOo is portable C++ Java. Actually, MSO is written in a high-level language. I forget which, but it's not .NET. They do that because there are a lot of bugs, and their It sure can't be .NET, since I run the 7(8?) year old MSO XP. support contracts with large firms means that they have to address those bugs. There was a great article on it on some MSDN blog about a year or two ago. Also, I vaguely remember Joel on Software talking about the anatomy of a Word bug. -- Obsession with preserving cultural heritage is a racist impediment to moral, physical and intellectual progress. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4ba29efe.4000...@cox.net
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 20:55, Dotan Cohen dotanco...@gmail.com wrote: And yet me getting-old laptop is still snappy. I think it's more that MSO is written in absurdly-tuned C assembler, whereas OOo is portable C++ Java. Actually, MSO is written in a high-level language. I forget which, but it's not .NET. They do that because there are a lot of bugs, and their support contracts with large firms means that they have to address those bugs. There was a great article on it on some MSDN blog about a year or two ago. Also, I vaguely remember Joel on Software talking about the anatomy of a Word bug. MSO (all versions) is almost entirely C++, like most MS programs and Win32 itself. Most of the very low-level stuff (including the NT Kernel) is in C. The Visual Studio 2010 UI is written in .NET (WPF) (not sure about the core), and is only the second major MS client-side program written this way (Expression Studio was the first) Cheers, Kelly Clowers -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1840f6971003181704m22f5c581u6930ab722d07a...@mail.gmail.com
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On 2010-03-18 19:04, Kelly Clowers wrote: [snip] MSO (all versions) is almost entirely C++, like most MS programs and Win32 itself. Most of the very low-level stuff (including the NT Kernel) is in C. C++ had barely been invented when Word, Excel Access were written, and the compilers and language was still really immature when Outlook and Powerpoint began. Even 8-10 years ago (when Office XP was gestating as a modification of Office 2000) C++ programs were still known dogs. -- Obsession with preserving cultural heritage is a racist impediment to moral, physical and intellectual progress. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4ba2d744.8040...@cox.net
Re:(OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net wrote: On 2010-03-17 10:40, Stefan Monnier wrote: Installing Gnash screws up Flash. That is the core of the problem that needs to be fixed. There's no reason the two shouldn't be able to coexist peacefully so that each user on the machine can choose which flash player she wants to use. The rub is that Debian doesn't officially know that Flash exists. Even if it did, too many DDs are morally opposed to closed-source to want to Depend on it. I highly suspect a flame-war here, but isn't against the Stallmanian-principle for a linux machines to play with those proprietary kids AT ALL. That is, debian (or any other linux) should not even consider talking with that kind of software. I'm just curious how many linux users/devs/etc maintain that position, given that I'm not one of those users. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/ab7b49bc1003171435j324d7a08tb690a38d39748...@mail.gmail.com
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On 2010-03-17 16:35, Neal Hogan wrote: On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net wrote: On 2010-03-17 10:40, Stefan Monnier wrote: Installing Gnash screws up Flash. That is the core of the problem that needs to be fixed. There's no reason the two shouldn't be able to coexist peacefully so that each user on the machine can choose which flash player she wants to use. The rub is that Debian doesn't officially know that Flash exists. Even if it did, too many DDs are morally opposed to closed-source to want to Depend on it. I highly suspect a flame-war here, but isn't against the Stallmanian-principle for a linux machines to play with those proprietary kids AT ALL. That is, debian (or any other linux) should not even consider talking with that kind of software. I'm just curious how many linux users/devs/etc maintain that position, given that I'm not one of those users. Enough DDs are sufficiently practical for there to be a non-free tree, and Christian Marillat does yeoman's work with http://www.debian-multimedia.org/. -- Obsession with preserving cultural heritage is a racist impediment to moral, physical and intellectual progress. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4ba14d31.1070...@cox.net
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 4:44 PM, Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net wrote: On 2010-03-17 16:35, Neal Hogan wrote: On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net wrote: On 2010-03-17 10:40, Stefan Monnier wrote: Installing Gnash screws up Flash. That is the core of the problem that needs to be fixed. There's no reason the two shouldn't be able to coexist peacefully so that each user on the machine can choose which flash player she wants to use. The rub is that Debian doesn't officially know that Flash exists. Even if it did, too many DDs are morally opposed to closed-source to want to Depend on it. I highly suspect a flame-war here, but isn't against the Stallmanian-principle for a linux machines to play with those proprietary kids AT ALL. That is, debian (or any other linux) should not even consider talking with that kind of software. I'm just curious how many linux users/devs/etc maintain that position, given that I'm not one of those users. Enough DDs are sufficiently practical for there to be a non-free tree, and Christian Marillat does yeoman's work with http://www.debian-multimedia.org/. no flames intended Ok . . . that's fine, but I'm still curious about the number of debian-user@ folks who appreciate or abide by or whatever the Stallman-point-o-view. P.S. -- . . . and if I'm lucky, why Stallman might not be relevant to the linux project. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/ab7b49bc1003171715p1aab039fm7a66d0543c0ee...@mail.gmail.com
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
The rub is that Debian doesn't officially know that Flash exists. Even if it did, too many DDs are morally opposed to closed-source to want to Depend on it. I highly suspect a flame-war here, but isn't against the Stallmanian-principle for a linux machines to play with those proprietary kids AT ALL. That is, debian (or any other linux) should not even consider talking with that kind of software. I'm just curious how many linux users/devs/etc maintain that position, given that I'm not one of those users. Enough DDs are sufficiently practical for there to be a non-free tree, and Christian Marillat does yeoman's work with http://www.debian-multimedia.org/. no flames intended Ok . . . that's fine, but I'm still curious about the number of debian-user@ folks who appreciate or abide by or whatever the Stallman-point-o-view. P.S. -- . . . and if I'm lucky, why Stallman might not be relevant to the linux project. The question is . . . is proprietary software compatible with the linux philosophy? Does Dick Stallman's POV hold any weight? If not (which it seems to be, given flash support), then what do we make of the DD's Ron refers to? -Neal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/ab7b49bc1003171802p4e1ef7d9v42cacb41fa5ed...@mail.gmail.com
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
I highly suspect a flame-war here, but isn't against the Stallmanian-principle for a linux machines to play with those proprietary kids AT ALL. That is, debian (or any other linux) should not even consider talking with that kind of software. I'm just curious how many linux users/devs/etc maintain that position, given that I'm not one of those users. Flame away. I use a Debian-derived distro because it is reliable and stable. I personally do not care for the Libre cause, even though I recognize it's importance. In fact, if Debian were closed source and the most expensive OS available I would probably still be happily paying for it and using it. The freedom and free cost are just icing on the cake for me. Therefore, I have no problem with proprietary Flash, even though I understand the problems that it causes. I wish that more proprietary software, such as Solidworks and MS Office, were available for Debian or Linux in general. Thanks for asking! -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/880dece01003171807l27efadfm275d9fc757e05...@mail.gmail.com
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On Wednesday 17 March 2010 20:15:51 Neal Hogan wrote: On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 4:44 PM, Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net wrote: Enough DDs are sufficiently practical for there to be a non-free tree, and Christian Marillat does yeoman's work with http://www.debian-multimedia.org/. no flames intended Ok . . . that's fine, but I'm still curious about the number of debian-user@ folks who appreciate or abide by or whatever the Stallman-point-o-view. P.S. -- . . . and if I'm lucky, why Stallman might not be relevant to the linux project. The Stallman-purist position actually has a significant practical upside -- it's impossible to pirate free-as-in-freedom software, which means an admin can give users a free hand on the systems they work with, and there is almost no danger of my employer being embarassed by some kind of license violation if they talk about it on their blog or redistribute it or something. This makes the sysadmin's job easier. Steering around the legal issues in commercial software isn't difficult, usually it boils down to don't redistribute, but it can be tricky to police. That said, I am not myself such a purist -- I have lots of non-free packages on my various systems. -- A. -- Andrew Reid / rei...@bellatlantic.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201003172115.48914.rei...@bellatlantic.net
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 8:15 PM, Andrew Reid rei...@bellatlantic.net wrote: On Wednesday 17 March 2010 20:15:51 Neal Hogan wrote: On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 4:44 PM, Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net wrote: Enough DDs are sufficiently practical for there to be a non-free tree, and Christian Marillat does yeoman's work with http://www.debian-multimedia.org/. no flames intended Ok . . . that's fine, but I'm still curious about the number of debian-user@ folks who appreciate or abide by or whatever the Stallman-point-o-view. P.S. -- . . . and if I'm lucky, why Stallman might not be relevant to the linux project. The Stallman-purist position actually has a significant practical upside -- it's impossible to pirate free-as-in-freedom software, which means an admin can give users a free hand on the systems they work with, and there is almost no danger of my employer being embarassed by some kind of license violation if they talk about it on their blog or redistribute it or something. Most (if not all) software has some sort of license, like use as you'd like but make sure you tell the next person the same (BSD . . .as I understand it). However, Flash is not just a set of words . . . to use Adobe software without paying for it is stealing . . . money . . . no? Is it the case that the flash support offered by Debian is free (i.e., without charge) in the Stallman sense? It would seem not? Enlighten me, please. Again, in the end, if you want flash support (no matter what), cool. But can a purist accept such support and be a true linux user? -Neal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/ab7b49bc1003171903n6e4e95c4y49e46df0bab16...@mail.gmail.com
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 4:44 PM, Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net wrote: Enough DDs are sufficiently practical for there to be a non-free tree, and Christian Marillat does yeoman's work with http://www.debian-multimedia.org/. non-free? I know that's what it's called, but I wonder how descriptive it is. BTW - hats off to Mr. Marillat! His work is nice. Just curious where it fits into the linux tradition. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/ab7b49bc1003171907s1635e66dk544411e386dd...@mail.gmail.com
Re:(OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 17:35:25 -0400 (EDT), Neal Hogan wrote: I highly suspect a flame-war here, but isn't against the Stallmanian-principle for a linux machines to play with those proprietary kids AT ALL. That is, debian (or any other linux) should not even consider talking with that kind of software. I'm just curious how many linux users/devs/etc maintain that position, given that I'm not one of those users. I can only speak for myself. I am a Linux user and system administrator. I am not a Debian package maintainer or Debian developer. I *STRONGLY* prefer free (as in freedom and as in price) software over non-free software. But I'm just pragmatic enough that I want it to work. If there was a reliable, stable, free flash plugin, I'd use it. But there's just too many flash sequences that the free stuff can't handle properly. At least not yet. If web sites didn't use this stuff, then we Linux users wouldn't have to worry about it. But they do. And as much as I hate flash, I am forced to deal with it. And I want something that works. The it works feature is the most important feature to me. As soon as free software has that characteristic, I use it and dump the proprietary stuff. But it has to get there first. That's my two cents worth. -- .''`. Stephen Powellzlinux...@wowway.com : :' : `. `'` `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1182439457.19955621268879004968.javamail.r...@md01.wow.synacor.com
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 10:07 PM, Neal Hogan nealho...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 4:44 PM, Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net wrote: Enough DDs are sufficiently practical for there to be a non-free tree, and Christian Marillat does yeoman's work with http://www.debian-multimedia.org/. non-free? I know that's what it's called, but I wonder how descriptive it is. BTW - hats off to Mr. Marillat! His work is nice. Just curious where it fits into the linux tradition. Debian defines free software here: http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines -- Jordan Metzmeier -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50e5edd51003172011k5f789068x29b22848ba135...@mail.gmail.com
Re: (OT) gnash vs. flash (was Re: Why does installing gnome ...)
On 2010-03-17 21:03, Neal Hogan wrote: [snip] Most (if not all) software has some sort of license, like use as you'd like but make sure you tell the next person the same (BSD . . .as I understand it). However, Flash is not just a set of words . . . to use Adobe software without paying for it is stealing . . . money . . . no? Is it the case that the flash support offered by Debian is free (i.e., without charge) in the Stallman sense? It would seem not? Enlighten me, please. The Adobe Flash *Player* is free as in Beer, not free as in Speech. The Flash *specification* is *published* under a license that allows anyone to create their own Flash writer and player. Again, in the end, if you want flash support (no matter what), cool. But can a purist accept such support Sure, since Flash is a publish specification, and there's a GPL player. and be a true linux user? That's a meaningless phrase, and so the question can't be answered. -- Obsession with preserving cultural heritage is a racist impediment to moral, physical and intellectual progress. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4ba19aed.2080...@cox.net
