Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
Peter Tenenbaum quar...@gmail.com writes: First, I intend to build a home computer which will run linux, and it will be 64-bit; since I'm quite new to maintaining my own linux computers, I'd rather limit the number of differences between the home machine and my portable. Hi PT, In regards to Debian, don't let this be a discriminator. If you had a 64-bit and 32-bit system, it would only mean that you'd have to burn two installation CDs. Once those CDs were installed, your installations would be mostly indistinguishable. After the initial install, Debian grabs the right bits for your system. When I switched from 32-bit to 64-bit, the only difference I saw besides a different installation image was a different kernel. -- Bill Wohler woh...@newt.com aka bill.woh...@nasa.gov http://www.newt.com/wohler/ GnuPG ID:610BD9AD -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/871vdgqt4k@olgas.newt.com
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
Alex Samad wrote: right tools for the job, I never ever thought about putting 64bit os on my netbook - it physically limited to 2G of memory I did it and I am sure it's faster and works much better together. It could be also subjective opinion but I don't think I'm wrong regards. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/hrrq8j$oc...@dough.gmane.org
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On 05/05/2010 08:02 AM, deloptes wrote: Alex Samad wrote: right tools for the job, I never ever thought about putting 64bit os on my netbook - it physically limited to 2G of memory I did it and I am sure it's faster and works much better together. It could be also subjective opinion but I don't think I'm wrong Excellent. Any trouble with wireless? -- Dissent is patriotic, remember? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4be17281.9080...@cox.net
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On Wed, 05 May 2010 09:42:03 +1000, Alex Samad wrote: right tools for the job, I never ever thought about putting 64bit os on my netbook - it physically limited to 2G of memory 64-bits kernels are not only intended for systems with tons of ram. Those kernels usually have enabled the nx bit and AFAIK, only 32 bits PAE kernels enable such feature. BTW, my Shuttle box has also a ram limitation of 2 GiB (and currently using only 1 GiB) but has installed amd64. It runs fine, without noticeable drawbacks. Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2010.05.05.13.49...@gmail.com
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On 05/05/2010 08:49 AM, Camaleón wrote: On Wed, 05 May 2010 09:42:03 +1000, Alex Samad wrote: right tools for the job, I never ever thought about putting 64bit os on my netbook - it physically limited to 2G of memory 64-bits kernels are not only intended for systems with tons of ram. Those kernels usually have enabled the nx bit and AFAIK, only 32 bits PAE kernels enable such feature. BTW, my Shuttle box has also a ram limitation of 2 GiB (and currently using only 1 GiB) but has installed amd64. It runs fine, without noticeable drawbacks. The question, though, is: What -- beyond geekness -- is the *benefit* of amd64 in 'low' RAM systems? -- Dissent is patriotic, remember? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4be17920.2030...@cox.net
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On Wed, 05 May 2010 08:56:48 -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On 05/05/2010 08:49 AM, Camaleón wrote: On Wed, 05 May 2010 09:42:03 +1000, Alex Samad wrote: right tools for the job, I never ever thought about putting 64bit os on my netbook - it physically limited to 2G of memory 64-bits kernels are not only intended for systems with tons of ram. Those kernels usually have enabled the nx bit and AFAIK, only 32 bits PAE kernels enable such feature. BTW, my Shuttle box has also a ram limitation of 2 GiB (and currently using only 1 GiB) but has installed amd64. It runs fine, without noticeable drawbacks. The question, though, is: What -- beyond geekness -- is the *benefit* of amd64 in 'low' RAM systems? I searched Google for nx bit feature geekiness but no successful results :-) Beyond that, all my systems run 64-bits kernels/apps so is a *matter of convenience* to have all of them sharing the same packages. In my case, using a 32-bits system is a waste of time and resources. Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2010.05.05.14.19...@gmail.com
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
Ron Johnson put forth on 5/5/2010 8:56 AM: On 05/05/2010 08:49 AM, Camaleón wrote: On Wed, 05 May 2010 09:42:03 +1000, Alex Samad wrote: right tools for the job, I never ever thought about putting 64bit os on my netbook - it physically limited to 2G of memory 64-bits kernels are not only intended for systems with tons of ram. Those kernels usually have enabled the nx bit and AFAIK, only 32 bits PAE kernels enable such feature. BTW, my Shuttle box has also a ram limitation of 2 GiB (and currently using only 1 GiB) but has installed amd64. It runs fine, without noticeable drawbacks. The question, though, is: What -- beyond geekness -- is the *benefit* of amd64 in 'low' RAM systems? Very little, if any, benefit for the vast majority of apps. Cache use is more efficient with 32bit kernel and app binaries due to smaller code, pointer, and data size. x86-64 binaries double the width and number of GPRs, so you get more efficient in-core code execution, though cache performance takes a hit, opposite of the 32bit case. For the vast majority of day-day applications such as web and mail the user won't notice a difference. That said... I happen to be resizing (downsizing, for web page use) about 150 digital camera .jpg files of ~3000 x ~2000 pixel dimension on a 32bit system using ImageMagick. I can only assume that the 64bit version of this binary would run more than a bit faster than the 32bit version. The system isn't x86-64 capable so I can't do a comparison. Image manipulation is one area where x86-64 binaries would definitely have an advantage over i386 (i686) binaries. Gimp would definitely perform better in many operations with x86-64. PDF readers would also probably run a bit faster. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4be180cd.6040...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On Wed, 05 May 2010 08:56:48 -0500 Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net wrote: The question, though, is: What -- beyond geekness -- is the *benefit* of amd64 in 'low' RAM systems? I did some tests with my most used apps (gcc, tar, bzip2...) about 2 and a half year ago with i386 and amd64-kernels. Nearly the same behavior, with one exception: I/O (disk and console) is much faster on amd64, but I don't know why... If anyone is interested in details, I can search the results of this tests runs. Dirk. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100505191918.b11bc4ac.neu...@yahoo.de
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On 5/5/2010 8:49 AM, Camaleón wrote: BTW, my Shuttle box has also a ram limitation of 2 GiB (and currently using only 1 GiB) but has installed amd64. It runs fine, without noticeable drawbacks. A concern was future-proofing. More than one GB is not needed now. What about later? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4be1d665.8010...@allums.com
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On 5/4/2010 12:43 AM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: Please do not try to insult. It is not really useful, and wastes time. Apologies. It wasn't meant as an insult but as an exclamation point backing incredulity. A user's application usage patterns dictate how much memory the machine needs, not the width of the CPU registers. The comment above belongs in the winders user world, not here on the debian-user list, where we are assumed to be competent OPs. The reasoning behind your suggestion is totally flawed. If you want to tell me that I am mistaken, that my reasoning is flawed, then explain why. That is sufficient. MAA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bdfc552.10...@allums.com
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
Stan Hoeppner wrote: I listed the machine closest to your requirements in my last email. It meets all your requirements but for the 2MB L2 cache. TTBOMK, there are no netbooks with 2MB L2 cpu cache. Neither AMD nor Intel make a CPU with 2MB L2 cache for this class of machines. you saved me a lot of time - thanks a lot -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/hrov46$jc...@dough.gmane.org
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On Tue, 2010-05-04 at 00:43 -0500, Stan Hoeppner wrote: Mark Allums put forth on 5/3/2010 11:41 PM: On 5/3/2010 11:01 PM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: Mark Allums put forth on 5/3/2010 5:01 PM: [snip] Correct in that one should get 4GB on a netbook due to 64bit binary size? Or correct that 64bit binaries are (slightly) larger than 32bit binaries? I'd agree with you on the latter but not on the former. Stating the case of the former is spreading misinformation. I attempted to shoot it down. It is simply not correct to recommend 4GB for the reason you stated. Please do not try to insult. It is not really useful, and wastes time. right tools for the job, I never ever thought about putting 64bit os on my netbook - it physically limited to 2G of memory Apologies. It wasn't meant as an insult but as an exclamation point backing incredulity. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1273016523.20116.37.ca...@alex-mini.samad.com.au
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On 05/02/2010 10:53 PM, Mark wrote: On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 7:35 PM, Ron Johnsonron.l.john...@cox.net wrote: Size. A little almost-handheld netbook just isn't as physically in danger of cracking in your knapsack as a 15 or 17 laptop. My girlfriend's Dell Mini's screen got cracked on a recent trip even though we had it in a protective case and now the netbook is useless, because to replace one of those screens basically requires taking the entire machine apart and it's out of warranty. My 6 year old Dell Latitude D800 on the other hand, while weighing in about 3 times as much, is solid as a brick and the screen has no flex. After the Dell Mini lasted only 8 months, we've decided no more netbooks. But that's just our experience, I know netbooks work well for some people. I question their durability for using while travelling though, which is kinda the whole point of the netbooks... Interesting. The Latitude D800 is presumably much thicker than the .65 inch Adamo and other current ultra-slim notebooks. -- Dissent is patriotic, remember? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bde8e3d.8000...@cox.net
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On 05/02/2010 10:39 PM, Mark Allums wrote: On 5/2/2010 9:35 PM, Ron Johnson wrote: Netbooks are underpowered. Get a *real* notebook/laptop. You can get a much better computer for about the same money. The only advantage I can see in a netbook is battery life. I speak from experience. Weight? Size. A little almost-handheld netbook just isn't as physically in danger of cracking in your knapsack as a 15 or 17 laptop. I have no idea what you even mean by that. Totally non-sequitur. It's harder to crack a small plywood board than it is to crack a large plywood board. Likewise, an ultra-thin 10 netbook should be less prone to cracking than an ultra-thin 15 notebook. That's just my theory, though. -- Dissent is patriotic, remember? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bde8f45.7080...@cox.net
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On 5/3/2010 3:54 AM, Ron Johnson wrote: On 05/02/2010 10:39 PM, Mark Allums wrote: On 5/2/2010 9:35 PM, Ron Johnson wrote: Size. A little almost-handheld netbook just isn't as physically in danger of cracking in your knapsack as a 15 or 17 laptop. I have no idea what you even mean by that. Totally non-sequitur. It's harder to crack a small plywood board than it is to crack a large plywood board. Likewise, an ultra-thin 10 netbook should be less prone to cracking than an ultra-thin 15 notebook. That's just my theory, though. Most netbooks (at least the ones I have seen) are relatively flimsy. They are not almost-handheld. They are much larger than that. I was listing advantages of netbooks over notebooks and laptops, but size is not one of them, _at_least_for_me_. They are too small. The screens are too small for my eyesight, the keyboards are too small for my hands, and so on. YMMV, I suppose. MAA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bdf3c61.2000...@allums.com
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On 05/03/2010 04:13 PM, Mark Allums wrote: [snip] I was listing advantages of netbooks over notebooks and laptops, but size is not one of them, _at_least_for_me_. They are too small. The screens are too small for my eyesight, the keyboards are too small for my hands, and so on. YMMV, I suppose. I'm actually waiting for decently-priced dual-core netbooks. -- Dissent is patriotic, remember? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bdf3e4c.9090...@cox.net
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
Hi, everyone -- I guess I should clarify my desirement for 64-bit. There are two things here. First, I intend to build a home computer which will run linux, and it will be 64-bit; since I'm quite new to maintaining my own linux computers, I'd rather limit the number of differences between the home machine and my portable. Second is just a desire to avoid early obsolescence in the portable, since at some point I expect 64 bit to become the standard and 32-bit to fade into the past. That day may not be near, and in any event it may be crazy to worry about obsolescence of a computer which costs less than an iPod, but that's just the way I roll. It also sounds like the respndents to my first message are underwhelmed by netbooks in general and recommend that I look at a low-end notebook / laptop computer instead. I confess that the distinction is a bit blurry to me. In any event, with those caveats, perhaps I should ask more generally for recommendations of netbooks or smallish laptops which people recommend as being compatible with Debian linux. Thanks again, -PT On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 12:17 PM, Peter Tenenbaum quar...@gmail.com wrote: I've been thinking about getting a netbook and I'd like to install Debian linux on it when / if I do. I'd also like to get one which uses an AMD64-class processor. Does anyone have any suggestions? The Gateway LT21 looks like just what I want in terms of hardware (ie, fairly low-end but 64-bit); has anyone got any positive / negative experience installing Debian on this computer? Thanks in advance, -PT
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On 5/3/2010 4:29 PM, Peter Tenenbaum wrote: Hi, everyone -- I guess I should clarify my desirement for 64-bit. There are two things here. First, I intend to build a home computer which will run linux, and it will be 64-bit; since I'm quite new to maintaining my own linux computers, I'd rather limit the number of differences between the home machine and my portable. Second is just a desire to avoid early obsolescence in the portable, since at some point I expect 64 bit to become the standard and 32-bit to fade into the past. That day may not be near, and in any event it may be crazy to worry about obsolescence of a computer which costs less than an iPod, but that's just the way I roll. It also sounds like the respndents to my first message are underwhelmed by netbooks in general and recommend that I look at a low-end notebook / laptop computer instead. I confess that the distinction is a bit blurry to me. In any event, with those caveats, perhaps I should ask more generally for recommendations of netbooks or smallish laptops which people recommend as being compatible with Debian linux. Thanks again, -PT I was a respondent who questioned the netbook route, but I see now that there may be good reasons to prefer one. However, most netbooks are deliberately crippled, such as allowing only 1 or 2 GB of memory when there is no technical reason why 4 GB shouldn't work. It is a matter of segmenting a market, and manufacturers want netbooks to have specific capabilities for marketing reasons, not technical ones. I wanted to suggest that you choose a machine based on your needs, and I wanted you to question your initial assumptions. However, I see you have done some thinking about it, and future-proofing *does* seem like a good reason to get a dual-core, 64-bit machine. With 64 bits, you will need more memory, so I suggest you look for a machine that can use 4 GB of memory. I suggest also that you make sure that the machine you get can use solid-state storage devices. In time, the advantages of SSDs will make them compelling, though now they are too expensive. That is, you will probably buy a machine with a standard notebook HD, but if you ever need to replace it, being able to replace it with an SSD gives you another option. This also is in the area of future-proofing. Just a couple of suggestions. I would like to hear more from other people. (I am also contemplating a portable computer purchase.) MAA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bdf47c6.7080...@allums.com
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On Monday 03 May 2010 22:13:05 Mark Allums wrote: Most netbooks (at least the ones I have seen) are relatively flimsy. They are not almost-handheld. They are much larger than that. I was listing advantages of netbooks over notebooks and laptops, but size is not one of them, _at_least_for_me_. They are too small. The screens are too small for my eyesight, the keyboards are too small for my hands, and so on. YMMV, I suppose. The size and weight are extremely important for some of us. I actually have physical difficulty carrying a laptop + charger etc. for any length of time. A netbook I can manage. YMMV would be fair enough, but I found that I suppose patronising. Not everyone in the world is male, fully fit and young. Some of us are none of those. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201005032302.58966.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On 5/3/2010 5:02 PM, Lisi wrote: On Monday 03 May 2010 22:13:05 Mark Allums wrote: Most netbooks (at least the ones I have seen) are relatively flimsy. They are not almost-handheld. They are much larger than that. I was listing advantages of netbooks over notebooks and laptops, but size is not one of them, _at_least_for_me_. They are too small. The screens are too small for my eyesight, the keyboards are too small for my hands, and so on. YMMV, I suppose. The size and weight are extremely important for some of us. I actually have physical difficulty carrying a laptop + charger etc. for any length of time. A netbook I can manage. YMMV would be fair enough, but I found that I suppose patronising. Not everyone in the world is male, fully fit and young. Some of us are none of those. Lisi It was not meant as patronising. It was meant as, oops, I goofed, sorry. I'm male, but not young, just only moderately (in)experienced with Debian, and I have other attributes which aren't flattering, either. It's true, I have a hard time understanding the appeal of a tiny thing like a typical netbook. Thank you for reminding me that there are other perspectives. MAA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bdf4dad.5030...@allums.com
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
Mark Allums wrote: With 64 bits, you will need more memory, so I suggest you look for a machine that can use 4 GB of memory. I also found that people underestimate the importance of L2/3 cache. I'm compiling very often and it's really faster on my developer's notebook with 4M cache then on faster CPU with 512K. The difference is in the terms of 4-8 times. I've noticed that there is only 512K cache in the most netbooks which makes then unsuitable for development. ATM this is stopping me from buying one. Do you know if there are some with larger cache? regards -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/hrnloc$p8...@dough.gmane.org
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On 5/3/2010 6:20 PM, deloptes wrote: Mark Allums wrote: With 64 bits, you will need more memory, so I suggest you look for a machine that can use 4 GB of memory. I also found that people underestimate the importance of L2/3 cache. I'm compiling very often and it's really faster on my developer's notebook with 4M cache then on faster CPU with 512K. The difference is in the terms of 4-8 times. I've noticed that there is only 512K cache in the most netbooks which makes then unsuitable for development. ATM this is stopping me from buying one. Do you know if there are some with larger cache? regards I do not know, but I would guess that it is dependent on the CPU. A particular ARM or Atom chip may have a particular amount of on-chip cache. Choosing one's machine carefully would include knowing what type of CPU is in it. MAA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bdf5daf.3080...@allums.com
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On Sun, May 02, 2010 at 12:17:54PM -0700, Peter Tenenbaum wrote: I've been thinking about getting a netbook and I'd like to install Debian linux on it when / if I do. I'd also like to get one which uses an AMD64-class processor. Does anyone have any suggestions? The Gateway LT21 looks like just what I want in terms of hardware (ie, fairly low-end but 64-bit); has anyone got any positive / negative experience installing Debian on this computer? No specific suggestions. A caution: go to a store and make sure your future netbook supports ACPI. I've had bad experiences with my cheap Toshiba Satellite L305 series laptop: the fan controls (and most other ACPI registers) do nothing. It seems either Toshiba or the BIOS maker Insyde H2O has chosen non-standard SSDT/DSDT table values, with the result that only Microsoft's OS knows where to twiddle. There are reports that the omnibook module will correctly handle Insyde H2O BIOS'ed notebook. Have yet to test here. Good luck, Joel Thanks in advance, -PT -- Joel Roth -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100504000114.ga2...@sprite
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
Mark Allums wrote: I do not know, but I would guess that it is dependent on the CPU. A particular ARM or Atom chip may have a particular amount of on-chip cache. Choosing one's machine carefully would include knowing what type of CPU is in it. MAA Good point, thanks! I've compiled one and the same software on my dell d530 and on an eeepc (don't remember which model exactly, but I think it was atom inside). Compile time was significantly longer on the latter. So the question is, if someone knows of a netbook (that is _64bit) and can be used for development (i.e. has 2gb ram and i.e. 2m cache) this would be exactly perfect for me. I've tried looking around but gathering exactly this data is kind of hard. So if someone has a hint, it would be great. Also some of you are dealing much ofter with hardware than me. Thanks in advance regards -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/hrnqm0$69...@dough.gmane.org
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On 05/03/2010 06:20 PM, deloptes wrote: Mark Allums wrote: With 64 bits, you will need more memory, so I suggest you look for a machine that can use 4 GB of memory. I also found that people underestimate the importance of L2/3 cache. I'm compiling very often and it's really faster on my developer's notebook with 4M cache then on faster CPU with 512K. The difference is in the terms of 4-8 times. I've noticed that there is only 512K cache in the most netbooks which makes then unsuitable for development. ATM this is stopping me from buying one. Do you know if there are some with larger cache? Just as a Mini Cooper isn't a dragster or a lorry, netbooks are not *designed* for heavy computational abilities. -- Dissent is patriotic, remember? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bdf7e7c.5070...@cox.net
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On Mon, 2010-05-03 at 20:55 -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On 05/03/2010 06:20 PM, deloptes wrote: Mark Allums wrote: [snip] Do you know if there are some with larger cache? Just as a Mini Cooper isn't a dragster or a lorry, netbooks are not *designed* for heavy computational abilities. maybe this is time for compuserve to come back (I think I have the name right), used to be able to buy cpu cycles on remove machines - basically a shell account on a mainframe. today netbook - connectivity anywhere / take anywhere - but no grunt. I find with my atom, using syncplaces (a firefox addin), which encrypts its files - it takes for ever, I am guess i am missing some of those nice cpu op's that speed these things up. But my netbook is lite, has loads of connectivity and I can always get home to the big machine :) -- Dissent is patriotic, remember? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1272939970.20116.9.ca...@alex-mini.samad.com.au
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On 05/03/2010 09:26 PM, Alex Samad wrote: [snip] I find with my atom, using syncplaces (a firefox addin), which encrypts its files - it takes for ever, I am guess i am missing some of those nice cpu op's that speed these things up. AMD Intel's low-power CPUs need encryption engines just like Via's, and libssl needs hooks into it. -- Dissent is patriotic, remember? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bdf9038.7010...@cox.net
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
Ron Johnson put forth on 5/3/2010 4:21 PM: On 05/03/2010 04:13 PM, Mark Allums wrote: [snip] I was listing advantages of netbooks over notebooks and laptops, but size is not one of them, _at_least_for_me_. They are too small. The screens are too small for my eyesight, the keyboards are too small for my hands, and so on. YMMV, I suppose. I'm actually waiting for decently-priced dual-core netbooks. Given the 12 screens and full size laptop keyboards on the current dual core netbooks I'd hardly call them netbooks, but rather small laptops, or, gasp, sub notebooks. It wasn't all that long ago that the average laptop had a 12 screen. Given the trend of constant growth and bloat of laptops... Playing prophet, I predict that in the not too distant future the hw makers will introduce a new class of portable computers called sub netbooks which will start out with the 7 screen that the first netbooks were introduced with, because all the netbooks will have crept up to 10 or 12 screens. This industry is famous for taking the old and relabeling it as new in an attempt to drive revenue, but with almost zero innovation in the new. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bdf945a.90...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
Mark Allums put forth on 5/3/2010 5:01 PM: With 64 bits, you will need more memory, so I suggest you look for a machine that can use 4 GB of memory. A user's application usage patterns dictate how much memory the machine needs, not the width of the CPU registers. The comment above belongs in the winders user world, not here on the debian-user list, where we are assumed to be competent OPs. The reasoning behind your suggestion is totally flawed. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bdf9c01.1020...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On 05/03/2010 11:01 PM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: Mark Allums put forth on 5/3/2010 5:01 PM: With 64 bits, you will need more memory, so I suggest you look for a machine that can use 4 GB of memory. A user's application usage patterns dictate how much memory the machine needs, not the width of the CPU registers. The comment above belongs in the winders user world, not here on the debian-user list, where we are assumed to be competent OPs. The reasoning behind your suggestion is totally flawed. While Mark's comment is only superficially true, your response is *really* uncalled for. For one thing, your first sentence is a /non sequiter/, irrelevant as to whether a 64-bit system uses more memory than does a 32-bit system. (Which it does, since the pointers are larger.) -- Dissent is patriotic, remember? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bdfa0a3.8090...@cox.net
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
deloptes put forth on 5/3/2010 6:20 PM: I've noticed that there is only 512K cache in the most netbooks which makes then unsuitable for development. ATM this is stopping me from buying one. Do you know if there are some with larger cache? The Celeron/M based netbooks have 1MB L2 cache. The dual core AMD and dual core Atom netbooks have 1MB L2 cache but that's 2 x 512KB per core. However, compiling code using concurrency_level=2 would definitely see a speedup using the dual core CPUs, even if they have no more L2 per core vs. the single core CPUs. If you want to do development on a netbook today, I'd recommend a dual core model over a single core Celeron with 1MB L2 cache. So basically you're looking at one model of Asus Eee in black or silver. Here's the black one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834220659 Given the 12 screen I don't really consider this a netbook. If your goal is a small form factor, I think this is the smallest portable you'll find with a dual core cpu. It's probably not suitable for any kind of real development work, but it will probably be more suitable than any other netbook class portable. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bdfa196.8010...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
deloptes put forth on 5/3/2010 7:44 PM: So the question is, if someone knows of a netbook (that is _64bit) and can be used for development (i.e. has 2gb ram and i.e. 2m cache) this would be exactly perfect for me. I listed the machine closest to your requirements in my last email. It meets all your requirements but for the 2MB L2 cache. TTBOMK, there are no netbooks with 2MB L2 cpu cache. Neither AMD nor Intel make a CPU with 2MB L2 cache for this class of machines. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bdfa350.4070...@hardwarefreak.com
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On 5/3/2010 11:01 PM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: Mark Allums put forth on 5/3/2010 5:01 PM: With 64 bits, you will need more memory, so I suggest you look for a machine that can use 4 GB of memory. A user's application usage patterns dictate how much memory the machine needs, not the width of the CPU registers. The comment above belongs in the winders user world, not here on the debian-user list, where we are assumed to be competent OPs. The reasoning behind your suggestion is totally flawed. No, 64-bit binaries are larger. This indicates to me that more memory is very useful to have. I admit I am just knowledgeable enough to be dangerous, rather than an expert, but on this subject I am confident I am correct. Please do not try to insult. It is not really useful, and wastes time. MAA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bdfa58b.6050...@allums.com
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
Mark Allums put forth on 5/3/2010 11:41 PM: On 5/3/2010 11:01 PM, Stan Hoeppner wrote: Mark Allums put forth on 5/3/2010 5:01 PM: With 64 bits, you will need more memory, so I suggest you look for a machine that can use 4 GB of memory. A user's application usage patterns dictate how much memory the machine needs, not the width of the CPU registers. The comment above belongs in the winders user world, not here on the debian-user list, where we are assumed to be competent OPs. The reasoning behind your suggestion is totally flawed. No, 64-bit binaries are larger. This indicates to me that more memory is very useful to have. If wallets were all unlimited, we'd all have all our DIMM slots maxed. I made the same argument as you quite some time ago in favor of 32bit Linux for small systems such as netbooks. I was shot down and educated on the actual memory footprint of the x86-64 binaries, and it turns out they're not that much larger overall, and not nearly to the size that one should need 4GB RAM on a netbook. Most of them come with 2GB anyway, which should be more than enough for just about all application mixes, whether one chooses a 64bit OS+apps or 32bit. I admit I am just knowledgeable enough to be dangerous, rather than an expert, but on this subject I am confident I am correct. Correct in that one should get 4GB on a netbook due to 64bit binary size? Or correct that 64bit binaries are (slightly) larger than 32bit binaries? I'd agree with you on the latter but not on the former. Stating the case of the former is spreading misinformation. I attempted to shoot it down. It is simply not correct to recommend 4GB for the reason you stated. Please do not try to insult. It is not really useful, and wastes time. Apologies. It wasn't meant as an insult but as an exclamation point backing incredulity. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bdfb414.6080...@hardwarefreak.com
64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
I've been thinking about getting a netbook and I'd like to install Debian linux on it when / if I do. I'd also like to get one which uses an AMD64-class processor. Does anyone have any suggestions? The Gateway LT21 looks like just what I want in terms of hardware (ie, fairly low-end but 64-bit); has anyone got any positive / negative experience installing Debian on this computer? Thanks in advance, -PT
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On 05/02/2010 02:17 PM, Peter Tenenbaum wrote: I've been thinking about getting a netbook and I'd like to install Debian linux on it when / if I do. I'd also like to get one which uses an AMD64-class processor. Does anyone have any suggestions? The Gateway LT21 looks like just what I want in terms of hardware (ie, fairly low-end but 64-bit); has anyone got any positive / negative experience installing Debian on this computer? Apart from the coolness factor, *why* 64 bit on a netbook? -- Dissent is patriotic, remember? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bdde6f9.6050...@cox.net
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net wrote: On 05/02/2010 02:17 PM, Peter Tenenbaum wrote: I've been thinking about getting a netbook and I'd like to install Debian linux on it when / if I do. I'd also like to get one which uses an AMD64-class processor. Does anyone have any suggestions? The Gateway LT21 looks like just what I want in terms of hardware (ie, fairly low-end but 64-bit); has anyone got any positive / negative experience installing Debian on this computer? Apart from the coolness factor, *why* 64 bit on a netbook? -- Dissent is patriotic, remember? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bdde6f9.6050...@cox.net I think it's a better choice in a netbooks or notebook with AMD Vision enabled, and they're 64bit capable. -- Linux User #452368 http://twitter.com/vpadro Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/w2jbeee84cb1005021405tf91191f4n361a68d9ce68c...@mail.gmail.com
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On 05/02/2010 04:05 PM, Victor Padro wrote: On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Ron Johnsonron.l.john...@cox.net wrote: On 05/02/2010 02:17 PM, Peter Tenenbaum wrote: I've been thinking about getting a netbook and I'd like to install Debian linux on it when / if I do. I'd also like to get one which uses an AMD64-class processor. Does anyone have any suggestions? The Gateway LT21 looks like just what I want in terms of hardware (ie, fairly low-end but 64-bit); has anyone got any positive / negative experience installing Debian on this computer? Apart from the coolness factor, *why* 64 bit on a netbook? I think it's a better choice in a netbooks or notebook with AMD Vision enabled, and they're 64bit capable. But you don't say *why* 64 bits is better on a netbook. I'll give you one big reason why it's a bad idea: binary wireless drivers. (Netbooks ae highly integrated and your choices are limited, since most use the same small set of mobos.) -- Dissent is patriotic, remember? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bddebd4.5030...@cox.net
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On 5/2/2010 2:17 PM, Peter Tenenbaum wrote: I've been thinking about getting a netbook and I'd like to install Debian linux on it when / if I do. I'd also like to get one which uses an AMD64-class processor. Does anyone have any suggestions? The Gateway LT21 looks like just what I want in terms of hardware (ie, fairly low-end but 64-bit); has anyone got any positive / negative experience installing Debian on this computer? Thanks in advance, -PT I have not installed Debian on this *particular* machine, but I have had some experience in general. Netbooks are underpowered. Get a *real* notebook/laptop. You can get a much better computer for about the same money. The only advantage I can see in a netbook is battery life. I speak from experience. I have briefly had Linux installed on an Eee PC. It performs better in some ways, but I saw no real advantage other than the usual advantages that Linux has over Win/Mac. At the time, I struggled with drivers. That situation has probably improved. My Eee PC's Atom CPU is single-core, 32-bit. This is appropriate because the machine cannot support more than 2GB of RAM anyway, and it is never used for anything except net things: web+email. 64-bit is overkill for a netbook. If you get a real machine, 64-bit might be useful. But for netbook-class machines, save your money. MAA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bde0c99.8080...@allums.com
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On Sun, 02 May 2010 18:36:57 -0500 Mark Allums m...@allums.com wrote: ... Netbooks are underpowered. Get a *real* notebook/laptop. You can get a much better computer for about the same money. The only advantage I can see in a netbook is battery life. I speak from experience. Weight? I haven't done extensive research, but can you get an equivalent laptop at the same weight for the same price? My understanding is that one pays a premium for the ultra-light category. Celejar -- foffl.sourceforge.net - Feeds OFFLine, an offline RSS/Atom aggregator mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100502194757.f14b3ede.cele...@gmail.com
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On 5/2/2010 6:47 PM, Celejar wrote: On Sun, 02 May 2010 18:36:57 -0500 Mark Allumsm...@allums.com wrote: ... Netbooks are underpowered. Get a *real* notebook/laptop. You can get a much better computer for about the same money. The only advantage I can see in a netbook is battery life. I speak from experience. Weight? I haven't done extensive research, but can you get an equivalent laptop at the same weight for the same price? My understanding is that one pays a premium for the ultra-light category. Celejar I confess, I forgot weight. On the other hand, I think that for me, weight doesn't factor in much. YMMV. MAA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bde3128.6090...@allums.com
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On 05/02/2010 09:12 PM, Mark Allums wrote: On 5/2/2010 6:47 PM, Celejar wrote: On Sun, 02 May 2010 18:36:57 -0500 Mark Allumsm...@allums.com wrote: ... Netbooks are underpowered. Get a *real* notebook/laptop. You can get a much better computer for about the same money. The only advantage I can see in a netbook is battery life. I speak from experience. Weight? I haven't done extensive research, but can you get an equivalent laptop at the same weight for the same price? My understanding is that one pays a premium for the ultra-light category. Celejar I confess, I forgot weight. On the other hand, I think that for me, weight doesn't factor in much. Size. A little almost-handheld netbook just isn't as physically in danger of cracking in your knapsack as a 15 or 17 laptop. -- Dissent is patriotic, remember? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bde367a.4010...@cox.net
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On Sun, 2010-05-02 at 21:35 -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: On 05/02/2010 09:12 PM, Mark Allums wrote: On 5/2/2010 6:47 PM, Celejar wrote: On Sun, 02 May 2010 18:36:57 -0500 Mark Allumsm...@allums.com wrote: ... Netbooks are underpowered. Get a *real* notebook/laptop. You can get a much better computer for about the same money. The only advantage I can see in a netbook is battery life. I speak from experience. Weight? I haven't done extensive research, but can you get an equivalent laptop at the same weight for the same price? My understanding is that one pays a premium for the ultra-light category. Celejar I confess, I forgot weight. On the other hand, I think that for me, weight doesn't factor in much. Size. A little almost-handheld netbook just isn't as physically in danger of cracking in your knapsack as a 15 or 17 laptop. I have a HP mini and a HP 8530w netbook and laptop. I love the netbook for easy work any were (work = mail, web, reading word or pdf) for serious stuff I use laptop. If need by rdp from netbook to my server (or from the laptop to server). The netbook is great - inbuild 3g _ 802.11n and 1g eth. Battery works well for me. I package to carry around small and lite my 2c alex -- Dissent is patriotic, remember? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1272854342.8710.3.ca...@alex-mini.samad.com.au
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On 5/2/2010 9:35 PM, Ron Johnson wrote: Netbooks are underpowered. Get a *real* notebook/laptop. You can get a much better computer for about the same money. The only advantage I can see in a netbook is battery life. I speak from experience. Weight? Size. A little almost-handheld netbook just isn't as physically in danger of cracking in your knapsack as a 15 or 17 laptop. I have no idea what you even mean by that. Totally non-sequitur. MAA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4bde456e.7090...@allums.com
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 7:35 PM, Ron Johnson ron.l.john...@cox.net wrote: Size. A little almost-handheld netbook just isn't as physically in danger of cracking in your knapsack as a 15 or 17 laptop. My girlfriend's Dell Mini's screen got cracked on a recent trip even though we had it in a protective case and now the netbook is useless, because to replace one of those screens basically requires taking the entire machine apart and it's out of warranty. My 6 year old Dell Latitude D800 on the other hand, while weighing in about 3 times as much, is solid as a brick and the screen has no flex. After the Dell Mini lasted only 8 months, we've decided no more netbooks. But that's just our experience, I know netbooks work well for some people. I question their durability for using while travelling though, which is kinda the whole point of the netbooks... Mark
Re: 64-bit netbooks with Debian linux
Le Sun, 2 May 2010 12:17:54 -0700, Peter Tenenbaum quar...@gmail.com a écrit : I've been thinking about getting a netbook and I'd like to install Debian linux on it when / if I do. I'd also like to get one which uses an AMD64-class processor. Does anyone have any suggestions? The Gateway LT21 looks like just what I want in terms of hardware (ie, fairly low-end but 64-bit); has anyone got any positive / negative experience installing Debian on this computer? Thanks in advance, -PT Hi Peter, No personal experience with the Gateway LT21 but last month I bought a Dell New Mini 10 (Inspiron 1012 (1012_9118)) which has an Intel atom N450 (64 bits dual core 1.66GHz, integrated GMA3150 graphics card in the chip). I think Debian Testing and Unstable are not presently up-to-date enough to run on this hardware (mostly due to xserver-xorg-video-intel). I installed both Archlinux and Debian Testing on it. Under Archlinux all works (X11, HD video, wifi, webcam, integrated DVB-T) excepted resume after hibernation which blanks the screen (this works perfectly under Debian Testing). This small beast is sufficiently powerfull for my usage. Roughly, 2x3300 BogoMIPS compared to the 3500 BogoMIPS my 15 Dell Inspiron 1300 laptop bought in spring 2006 (Celeron M 1.6GHz). Unfortunately, the 1366x768 screen is glossy and I find the touchpad lousy. My two cents. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2010050306.1b01e...@gmail.com
