Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On Wed, 24 Jun 2015, Seeker wrote: On 6/24/2015 3:58 PM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: On Wed, 24 Jun 2015 14:47:27 -0700 Seeker seeker5...@comcast.net wrote: Paranoia is the foundation of paranoia, fueled by those who would prevent others from having a choice of using systemd. No-one wants to prevent others from having a choice of using systemd; what some people want is the freedom not to use it themselves. That choice never went away. It just requires reading the release notes and following the relevant instructions in the release notes. People are too use to having everything done for them to consider READING. Maybe, if the Release Notes were in video format, or an app on their phone. ;-) There were those few squeeky wheels leading up to, and following the decision to make systemd the default. [snip] I consider the systemd decision rushed, and its inclusion in Jessie as the default init premature. It lacked maturity. At least, for Debian. It should have been delayed one development cycle, at least, but made available for Jessie as an option for user evaluation and feedback before the final decision. But when you have major OS components and applications that have systemd parts (not necessarily the init part) as dependencies, what choices do you have? When I look back on all this, I wonder: Who got bribed and by whom? B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150625092301.3754b...@debian7.boseck208.net
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On 06/25/2015 12:33 AM, Seeker wrote: Even though the more extreme squeeky wheels generally seem to be absent now, or at least refraining from beating a dead horse, the sensitivity from those earlier discussions remains. And, when we finally arrive at Quantum Computing, I'll see a sensitivity module running. In there here and now, we have a decision to use systemd arrived at by our best and most qualified developer/thinkers and it is what we have. My hope it that eventually it proves to become a unifying force amongst the distros. I note that is will provide a re-start-on-fail of containers. That is a good one for me, personally. I adapted and do not see a downside, and I do see an upside. I'm sure there were plenty of sensitivities bruised when WinXP bit the dirt. My sensitivities are bruised every time I see a new Cadillac Escalade. It's a station wagon! Yet, for my sensitivities, I get to pound sand. They will not build an '88 El Dorado just for me. :) Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/558b9a04.4060...@gmail.com
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On 24/06/15 00:48, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: Will the same pinning prevent systemd from installing when I dist-upgrade from Wheezy to Jessie ? Yes. This procedure is *clearly stated* in the official Release Notes for Debian jessie. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/558a6170.8070...@zen.co.uk
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On Wednesday 24 June 2015 13:01:55 Zebediah C. McClure wrote: i systemd-shim - shim for systemd AIUI you need that for what you are now doing. I noticed that you hadn't installed it and wondered how you were OK. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201506241346.56829.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On Tuesday 23 June 2015 18:33:22 Patrick Bartek wrote: apt-get install sysvinit-core sysvinit sysvinit-utils apt-get remove --purge --auto-remove systemd Fixed my problems, and gave me a 100% working system. Did you check for any remnants of systemd (libraries, config files, etc.) still hanging around? Months ago while Jessie was still Testing, I installed a NetInstall Base System only in VirtualBox -- No X, no desktop, no window manager, no network manager, etc -- to test converting it to sysvinit (and later to runitinit). After the conversion (exactly as you did), there was still systemd stuff installed. Dependencies, it seems, for parts of the operating system itself. The conversion instructions I followed said this is normal and not to worry about it. Is it the same with your system? Yes, but I still have the following packages installed because I haeven't cleaned them out. You might have them around also. i libsystemd-daemon0 - systemd utility library (deprecated) i libsystemd-login0 - systemd login utility library (deprecated) i libsystemd0 - systemd utility library i systemd-shim- shim for systemd zmc -- Ensis Technologies www.ensistech.com 1-888-373-9056 -- Confidentiality Privilege Note: This email and any files transmitted with it contain confidential and/or privileged information belonging to Ensis Technologies Inc.. You are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited without the authorization of the sender. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery for such person), you should destroy this message and may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, please kindly notify the sender immediately by telephone at (888) 373-9056. Any views expressed in this communication are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states otherwise. Nota de confidencialidad: Este correo electrónico y los documentos que lo acompañan contienen información confidencial y privilegiada para uso exclusivo de la persona o agencia a la que van dirigidos. Esta información confidencial está protegida por la ley de políticas de privacidad, y su distribución, diseminación o copia sin la debida autorización de quién los envía están estrictamente prohibidos. Si usted no es la persona a la que van dirigidos (ó la persona responsable de entregarlos a esa persona) debe destruir este mensaje y notificarlo de inmediato a Ensis Technologies Inc. al (888) 373-9056. Cualquier opinión expresada en esta comunicación es opinión del individuo que lo envía, excepto en los casos en que se especifica lo contrario. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/6903456.xQAYdGzavs@strata
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 12:01:55PM +, Zebediah C. McClure wrote: On Tuesday 23 June 2015 18:33:22 Patrick Bartek wrote: apt-get install sysvinit-core sysvinit sysvinit-utils apt-get remove --purge --auto-remove systemd Fixed my problems, and gave me a 100% working system. Did you check for any remnants of systemd (libraries, config files, etc.) still hanging around? Months ago while Jessie was still Testing, I installed a NetInstall Base System only in VirtualBox -- No X, no desktop, no window manager, no network manager, etc -- to test converting it to sysvinit (and later to runitinit). After the conversion (exactly as you did), there was still systemd stuff installed. Dependencies, it seems, for parts of the operating system itself. The conversion instructions I followed said this is normal and not to worry about it. Is it the same with your system? Yes, but I still have the following packages installed because I haeven't cleaned them out. You might have them around also. i libsystemd-daemon0 - systemd utility library (deprecated) i libsystemd-login0 - systemd login utility library (deprecated) i libsystemd0 - systemd utility library i systemd-shim- shim for systemd Those may well be necessary for your system, because packages you want/need may link against those libraries. You can find out with apt-cache rdepends foo or aptitude why foo. - -- t -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlWKpSQACgkQBcgs9XrR2kaEQgCePjphto0r/xjimGkK5VWJh6YI gbUAoIHXx42ilkFJFEoVcsmn7zWZjrho =OPGM -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150624124004.ga32...@tuxteam.de
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On 6/24/2015 6:19 AM, Jape Person wrote: On 06/24/2015 08:01 AM, Zebediah C. McClure wrote: On Tuesday 23 June 2015 18:33:22 Patrick Bartek wrote: Yes, but I still have the following packages installed because I haeven't cleaned them out. You might have them around also. i libsystemd-daemon0 - systemd utility library (deprecated) i libsystemd-login0 - systemd login utility library (deprecated) i libsystemd0 - systemd utility library i systemd-shim- shim for systemd zmc Before cleaning them out, you might want to do a little bit of research. Hint: My Jessie and Stretch systems running systemd as the init system do NOT have systemd-shim installed. My Jessie and Stretch systems using sysv as the init system DO have it installed. I have wondered if the naming scheme for some of the packages may be part of the foundation of paranoia about systemd as a whole, since one who works hard to rid her/his system of systemd might expect not to see the word sitting amongst the system's package names. But a name is just a name. The systemd-shim package, for instance, is what makes it possible to use sysv system as the init system while still making use of a number of important system functions which have -- for better or worse -- been rolled into packages developed and/or maintained by the systemd project. Paranoia is the foundation of paranoia, fueled by those who would prevent others from having a choice of using systemd. Some number of things require a functional systemd, if you have a different init system handling boot then you need the shim for those things. Some other things have support for systemd compiled in for those who are using systemd, but don't require systemd to function. At the least those would commonly require libsystemd0. Even if the systemd stuff won't be used they would complain if the libraries provided by libsystemd0 were not there. That's the part where the paranoia fueled by those who would prevent the choice to others comes into play. I believe all the packages that are listed as deprecated were providing libraries that have been rolled in to libsystemd0, so there is a good chance they could all be removed, but there may still be some packages that list the deprecated packages as dependencies, so that may vary depending on what you install. Later, Seeker -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/558b256f.3060...@comcast.net
Re: systemd, headless, SSH, manual decryption (was: Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch)
Christian, Thanks for this. I've printed it on paper for study and reference. It is slow going for me, but I finally have a feeling that I might have a chance at understanding systemd. The printed version is eleven USletter pages. So far, I've gotten to middle of page three. Best regards, pec On 20150623_1852+0200, Christian Seiler wrote: On 06/23/2015 12:59 PM, Erwan David wrote: Note that I use policy-rc.d to check whether the encrypted disk is mounted for the daemons that need it (it allows not to change the init files) That works? policy-rc.d should only affect invoke-rc.d, which shouldn't be relevant at boot, but only in maintainer scripts. (AFAIK at least.) For what I need to know : I have a headless machine with an encrypted disk. I cannot ask the password on console, so 1) at boot I do not mount the encrypted disk, and start a minimal set of daemons, among them the ssh daemon. 2) I ssh to the machine then mount encrypted disk and start remaining daemons. How can I do this with systemd ? This is a great question because it presents a nice little problem that covers quite a few of topics regarding systemd. I've sat down and solved your little problem from a systemd perspective, and hopefully my solution will help you in understanding how systemd works. First of all a couple of very basic explanations: what is a unit? A unit is anything that systemd manages and/or monitors. Relevant for our case are the types service, target and mount, but systemd supports more than that (see man systemd.unit and the references therein for more details). A service unit is probably the simplest to understand, it corresponds to that which was previously provided by /etc/init.d scripts. I'm not going to go into much detail here about that. A mount unit represents a mount in the system. If you manually mount something via the mount(8) command, systemd will not interfere, but it will synthesize a dynamic mount unit for it. So for example, if you have: mkdir /mnt/a /mnt/b mount --bind /mnt/a /mnt/b Then you can also umount /mnt/b via the command: systemctl stop mnt-b.mount (umount /mnt/b will continue to work, of course) For manual mounts this is not really that relevant (I suspect even most systemd developers will use plain old umount in that case), but mount units are the method systemd uses to handle /etc/fstab: for every entry in /etc/fstab a mount unit is generated, that's how /etc/fstab is integrated into the boot process. (See below for further details.) A target is in some sense the simplest kind of unit: it can only have dependencies (and a description), but nothing else. You can achieve the same thing with a dummy /bin/true service unit. Targets are useful for grouping things together and also for providing synchronization points. For example, as is documented in man 7 bootup, there's a target called local-fs.target that has the semantics that every local filesystem mount in /etc/fstab will be ordered before it, and so that every service that orders after it can be sure that local filesystems are already mounted at that point. (Most services are implicitly ordered after local-fs.target because by default everything is ordered after basic.target, which itself is ordered after local-fs.target. You can override these kind of things if you need to, however.) How does systemd boot up a system? After doing some very basic initialization (such as setting the hostname from /etc/hostname and mounting some essential kernel filesystems such as /proc and /sys), it will try to start a specific unit, either the default (called 'default.target') or any unit specified on the kernel command line via the option systemd.unit=XXX. default.target is a symlink to graphical.target on Debian, but that can be overridden. (If you don't have a GUI installed, graphical.target is equivalent to multi-user.target, in analogy to the runlevels 2-5 on Debian with sysvinit.) graphical.target itself depends on a lot of things, and thus all services required for system startup are automatically pulled in. Now how does one solve the problem you have? There are multiple ways to do so, but for the sake of simplicity I'm going to show just one, the one I personally prefer (YMMV). The basic outline would be this: - tell systemd to NOT automatically decrypt the drive at boot and to NOT automatically mount it - create a new target unit that will serve as a new boot target, and it will only contain ssh + syslog as services (beyond the very basic early-boot things that should always be there) - create a second target unit that will pull in the encrypted drive and the mount and then ulitmately start the original multi-user.target, thus pulling in all other installed daemons on the system - that second target will be started manually by you after you log in and decrypt the drive Let's begin. First of all
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On 06/24/2015 at 08:46 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Wednesday 24 June 2015 13:01:55 Zebediah C. McClure wrote: i systemd-shim- shim for systemd AIUI you need that for what you are now doing. I noticed that you hadn't installed it and wondered how you were OK. Actually, as long as you don't install any programs which rely on functionality normally provided by systemd, you can get by just fine without systemd-shim. I've got at least one system that's set up that way, and haven't noticed any issues. (Then again, I also don't run a desktop environment, and I manage my network interfaces with ifupdown and wpasupplicant and so forth.) -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On 06/24/2015 08:01 AM, Zebediah C. McClure wrote: On Tuesday 23 June 2015 18:33:22 Patrick Bartek wrote: apt-get install sysvinit-core sysvinit sysvinit-utils apt-get remove --purge --auto-remove systemd Fixed my problems, and gave me a 100% working system. Did you check for any remnants of systemd (libraries, config files, etc.) still hanging around? Months ago while Jessie was still Testing, I installed a NetInstall Base System only in VirtualBox -- No X, no desktop, no window manager, no network manager, etc -- to test converting it to sysvinit (and later to runitinit). After the conversion (exactly as you did), there was still systemd stuff installed. Dependencies, it seems, for parts of the operating system itself. The conversion instructions I followed said this is normal and not to worry about it. Is it the same with your system? Yes, but I still have the following packages installed because I haeven't cleaned them out. You might have them around also. i libsystemd-daemon0 - systemd utility library (deprecated) i libsystemd-login0 - systemd login utility library (deprecated) i libsystemd0 - systemd utility library i systemd-shim- shim for systemd zmc Before cleaning them out, you might want to do a little bit of research. Hint: My Jessie and Stretch systems running systemd as the init system do NOT have systemd-shim installed. My Jessie and Stretch systems using sysv as the init system DO have it installed. I have wondered if the naming scheme for some of the packages may be part of the foundation of paranoia about systemd as a whole, since one who works hard to rid her/his system of systemd might expect not to see the word sitting amongst the system's package names. But a name is just a name. The systemd-shim package, for instance, is what makes it possible to use sysv system as the init system while still making use of a number of important system functions which have -- for better or worse -- been rolled into packages developed and/or maintained by the systemd project. There may be ways to use a Debian Jessie or Stretch operating system without any packages containing the letters systemd in them, but it's not going to be done as easily as merely removing them from the system with the package manager of your choice. I'm all for maintaining some choice in system configurations, which is why I test servers and desktops with different init systems. I'm also playing with BSD and the GUIX OS, the latter definitely not being ready for prime time. Good luck in your endeavors! JP -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/558aae62.40...@comcast.net
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On Wed, 24 Jun 2015 14:47:27 -0700 Seeker seeker5...@comcast.net wrote: Paranoia is the foundation of paranoia, fueled by those who would prevent others from having a choice of using systemd. No-one wants to prevent others from having a choice of using systemd; what some people want is the freedom not to use it themselves. Cheers, Ron. -- Verschiebe nicht auf morgen, was du auch übermorgen besorgen kannst -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150624185812.7b45f...@ron.cerrocora.org
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On 6/24/2015 3:58 PM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: On Wed, 24 Jun 2015 14:47:27 -0700 Seeker seeker5...@comcast.net wrote: Paranoia is the foundation of paranoia, fueled by those who would prevent others from having a choice of using systemd. No-one wants to prevent others from having a choice of using systemd; what some people want is the freedom not to use it themselves. That choice never went away. It just requires reading the release notes and following the relevant instructions in the release notes. There were those few squeeky wheels leading up to, and following the decision to make systemd the default. And some did present the idea that anything remotely related to systemd should be able to be removed from the system. In spite of the fact that nobody seemed to be complaining about the support libraries being pulled in before the decision to make systemd the default init. Even though the more extreme squeeky wheels generally seem to be absent now, or at least refraining from beating a dead horse, the sensitivity from those earlier discussions remains. Later, Seeker -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/558b8484.3010...@comcast.net
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
2015-06-23 12:59 GMT+02:00 Erwan David er...@rail.eu.org: On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 12:04:57PM CEST, Jonathan Dowland j...@debian.org said: On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 08:46:39AM +0200, Erwan David wrote: If OI were to write documentation it would be it does not work. Just because I do not know how to make it work. If you can explain what the things are that do not work, one at a time, there is some chance somebody can help. Unfortunately a bunch of things don't work is not enough to go on. If you read me, first thing I ask is a place to ask : not a developers mailing list, because it would be OT on such list. Not here because it is not debian specific. For what I need to know : I have a headless machine with an encrypted disk. I cannot ask the password on console, so 1) at boot I do not mount the encrypted disk, and start a minimal set of daemons, among them the ssh daemon. 2) I ssh to the machine then mount encrypted disk and start remaining daemons. How can I do this with systemd ? Have a look here http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-cryptsetup-generator.html http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-cryptse...@.service.html And here : http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.mount.html And also : http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/64693/how-do-i-configure-systemd-to-activate-an-encrypted-swap-file (talking about swap but apply to different partition) Note that I use policy-rc.d to check whether the encrypted disk is mounted for the daemons that need it (it allows not to change the init files) As for read the man. man -k systemd gives me 145 different man page : when you do not know the architecture, where do you begin ? For beginner in systemd (but fluent in sysV init scripts) how to learn ? You get a bunch of unordered data, which does not help at all. Check at the bottom of this page : https://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/527639-managing-services-on-linux-with-systemd How do targets work ? I did not find. What is the format of a unit file. No ini-like is NOT an answer, since it lacks a link to the exact definition of ini, and explanation of the like. http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.target.html etc, etc. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150623105934.gd2...@rail.eu.org
systemd, headless, SSH, manual decryption (was: Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch)
On 06/23/2015 12:59 PM, Erwan David wrote: Note that I use policy-rc.d to check whether the encrypted disk is mounted for the daemons that need it (it allows not to change the init files) That works? policy-rc.d should only affect invoke-rc.d, which shouldn't be relevant at boot, but only in maintainer scripts. (AFAIK at least.) For what I need to know : I have a headless machine with an encrypted disk. I cannot ask the password on console, so 1) at boot I do not mount the encrypted disk, and start a minimal set of daemons, among them the ssh daemon. 2) I ssh to the machine then mount encrypted disk and start remaining daemons. How can I do this with systemd ? This is a great question because it presents a nice little problem that covers quite a few of topics regarding systemd. I've sat down and solved your little problem from a systemd perspective, and hopefully my solution will help you in understanding how systemd works. First of all a couple of very basic explanations: what is a unit? A unit is anything that systemd manages and/or monitors. Relevant for our case are the types service, target and mount, but systemd supports more than that (see man systemd.unit and the references therein for more details). A service unit is probably the simplest to understand, it corresponds to that which was previously provided by /etc/init.d scripts. I'm not going to go into much detail here about that. A mount unit represents a mount in the system. If you manually mount something via the mount(8) command, systemd will not interfere, but it will synthesize a dynamic mount unit for it. So for example, if you have: mkdir /mnt/a /mnt/b mount --bind /mnt/a /mnt/b Then you can also umount /mnt/b via the command: systemctl stop mnt-b.mount (umount /mnt/b will continue to work, of course) For manual mounts this is not really that relevant (I suspect even most systemd developers will use plain old umount in that case), but mount units are the method systemd uses to handle /etc/fstab: for every entry in /etc/fstab a mount unit is generated, that's how /etc/fstab is integrated into the boot process. (See below for further details.) A target is in some sense the simplest kind of unit: it can only have dependencies (and a description), but nothing else. You can achieve the same thing with a dummy /bin/true service unit. Targets are useful for grouping things together and also for providing synchronization points. For example, as is documented in man 7 bootup, there's a target called local-fs.target that has the semantics that every local filesystem mount in /etc/fstab will be ordered before it, and so that every service that orders after it can be sure that local filesystems are already mounted at that point. (Most services are implicitly ordered after local-fs.target because by default everything is ordered after basic.target, which itself is ordered after local-fs.target. You can override these kind of things if you need to, however.) How does systemd boot up a system? After doing some very basic initialization (such as setting the hostname from /etc/hostname and mounting some essential kernel filesystems such as /proc and /sys), it will try to start a specific unit, either the default (called 'default.target') or any unit specified on the kernel command line via the option systemd.unit=XXX. default.target is a symlink to graphical.target on Debian, but that can be overridden. (If you don't have a GUI installed, graphical.target is equivalent to multi-user.target, in analogy to the runlevels 2-5 on Debian with sysvinit.) graphical.target itself depends on a lot of things, and thus all services required for system startup are automatically pulled in. Now how does one solve the problem you have? There are multiple ways to do so, but for the sake of simplicity I'm going to show just one, the one I personally prefer (YMMV). The basic outline would be this: - tell systemd to NOT automatically decrypt the drive at boot and to NOT automatically mount it - create a new target unit that will serve as a new boot target, and it will only contain ssh + syslog as services (beyond the very basic early-boot things that should always be there) - create a second target unit that will pull in the encrypted drive and the mount and then ulitmately start the original multi-user.target, thus pulling in all other installed daemons on the system - that second target will be started manually by you after you log in and decrypt the drive Let's begin. First of all you need to add your drive to /etc/crypttab. I've done this in a KVM and the entry looks like this: crypto /dev/vda5 none luks,noauto (This means that /dev/vda5 is the device with the encrypted LUKS data on it and /dev/mapper/crypto will be the name of the virtual device with the plain text data.) Note that here there is a 'noauto' setting, which means that the drive should NOT be decrypted automatically at boot (otherwise systemd would
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On Mon, 22 Jun 2015, Zebediah C. McClure wrote: Non-booting system because of race condition in drive mounting. The ordering of drives by systemd is based on dependencies, and there shouldn't be issues. But that said, if you've found one, please file a bug with enough details to reproduce it. Not correctly assembled lvm-raid volumes, You mean lvm striping or mirroring? Assuming all of the drives are detected, they should correctly be started. If you mean lvm+raid, then if the raid is assembled, lvm should also start properly. If this isn't happening, it's a bug which should be filed with enough details to reproduce it. [lvm+raid is a configuration which I use extensively, so I know it works in at least some configurations.] Syslog-ng udp remote logging broken. I don't see a bug about this one, but it shouldn't have anything to do with systemd. Please file a bug with details against syslog-ng. Network manager eth0 auto-dhcp broken. What is your /etc/network/interfaces configuration? Do you have /e/n/i managing eth0, but are expecting NM to do so? I haven't tracked it down yet but I also have sound problems on my desktop that only appear when systemd is around, Sound problems of what kind? and some client's servers that can't correctly set their tape drive's block sizes anymore. Tape drive block size should have nothing to do with systemd. systemd is [...] the only package that has caused me any headache. There certainly have been bugs in systemd, but at least half of the problems you've listed don't appear to be bugs in systemd, but are possibly bugs in some other package. In any event, please file the bugs if you'd like them fixed. Otherwise, no one will know about them and/or fix them. -- Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly. -- Woody Allen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150623164503.GO2069@geta
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On 06/23/2015 11:45 AM, Don Armstrong wrote: On Mon, 22 Jun 2015, Zebediah C. McClure wrote: Non-booting system because of race condition in drive mounting. The ordering of drives by systemd is based on dependencies, and there shouldn't be issues. But that said, if you've found one, please file a bug with enough details to reproduce it. This happens a lot. Reproducing the problem is hard to do when it randomly crops up every 10th boot or so (yes, I need to reboot a lot). I haven't tracked it down yet but I also have sound problems on my desktop that only appear when systemd is around, Sound problems of what kind? I too have sound problems. Mainly no sound on startup, problem started during switch to systemd. systemd is [...] the only package that has caused me any headache. There certainly have been bugs in systemd, but at least half of the problems you've listed don't appear to be bugs in systemd, but are possibly bugs in some other package. We beg to differ. In any event, please file the bugs if you'd like them fixed. Otherwise, no one will know about them and/or fix them. How do we file bugs that are so difficult to reproduce? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5589a836.8090...@allums.xyz
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015, Mark Allums wrote: On 06/23/2015 11:45 AM, Don Armstrong wrote: But that said, if you've found [a boot order bug] please file a bug with enough details to reproduce it. This happens a lot. Reproducing the problem is hard to do when it randomly crops up every 10th boot or so (yes, I need to reboot a lot). When it happens, provide the boot logs (using a serial console will help), your fstab, and as much of a description of the problem as you can. I personally haven't seen such a problem recently, but then again, my setup is not your setup. Sound problems of what kind? I too have sound problems. Mainly no sound on startup, problem started during switch to systemd. Just on startup? And it starts working once you've logged in? Or it doesn't work at all? How is your sound configured? Are you using pulseaudio or just straight alsa? Which soundcards do you have? What are the output levels? These are all the kinds of questions that should be answered when filing a bug. In any event, please file the bugs if you'd like them fixed. Otherwise, no one will know about them and/or fix them. How do we file bugs that are so difficult to reproduce? You file them the same way as you do any other bug. However, because it's a hard bug to reproduce, you need to provide as much information as you can initially, and try to keep providing more information as you see the problem again or try new iterations. Being responsive to the requests of package maintainers to provide more information is also very important. Above all else, be accurate with the information you provide. If you're not sure, say so; if you're eliding information to protect your privacy, be explicit about it. -- Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com We cast this message into the cosmos. [...] We are trying to survive our time so we may live into yours. We hope some day, having solved the problems we face, to join a community of Galactic Civilizations. This record represents our hope and our determination and our goodwill in a vast and awesome universe. -- Jimmy Carter on the Voyager Golden Record -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150623192736.GQ2069@geta
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On Tuesday 23 June 2015 19:40:54 Mark Allums wrote: There certainly have been bugs in systemd, but at least half of the problems you've listed don't appear to be bugs in systemd, but are possibly bugs in some other package. We beg to differ. What evidence have you that the bugs are in systemd? It appears to be that they are new bugs in Jessie. That doesn't prove that they are in systemd! Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201506232235.51033.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
2015-06-22 21:09 GMT+02:00 Erwan David er...@rail.eu.org: On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 08:31:55PM CEST, Martin Read zen75...@zen.co.uk said: On 22/06/15 18:26, Zebediah C. McClure wrote: What is the correct way to work towards not having systemd be installed by default in stretch? That depends on your goal. If your goal is to have a dpkg-based Linux distribution which leverages the good work done in Debian and does not use systemd as the init daemon, you might do well to consider contributing to the Devuan project whichever of money, labour, or cheerleading is most mutually congenial. If your goal is for something other than systemd to be the default init system of Debian stretch, then *well* before stretch enters freeze, you need to have contributed to Debian a system initialization and service management system that over 50% of active Debian Developers think is an adequate *replacement* for systemd. I have a stretch with only parts of systemd and settings that I do not know how to replicate in systemd: How do I do ? Where so I find docs and tutorials to migrate ? Where can I discuss the problems (no here is not the place). WHEN WILL THOSE SIMPLE QUESTION FOR A NEW SOFTWARE GET AN ANSWER ? I already answer you on another thread : http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/ And please, stop claim it is not working. What is your problem ? Give us some log, error message and we will help you fix it ! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150622190900.gb2...@rail.eu.org
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 09:46:23PM CEST, Nicolas George geo...@nsup.org said: Le quartidi 4 messidor, an CCXXIII, Erwan David a écrit : I have a stretch with only parts of systemd and settings that I do not know how to replicate in systemd: How do I do ? Where so I find docs and tutorials to migrate ? Where can I discuss the problems (no here is not the place). WHEN WILL THOSE SIMPLE QUESTION FOR A NEW SOFTWARE GET AN ANSWER ? As soon as you have written it and posted it. Thanks you very much for volunteering to make a valuable contribution to the Free Software community. Documentation, like software, does not write itself. And I do not think that developers should stop from integrating something that is a step in the right direction (which, IMHO, systemd, despite being over-engineered, is: having an init system that has actually a brain and not just a few reflex arcs) just because nobody volunteered to write basic introductory documentation. If OI were to write documentation it would be it does not work. Just because I do not know how to make it work. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150623064639.gc2...@rail.eu.org
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
Le quintidi 5 messidor, an CCXXIII, Erwan David a écrit : If OI were to write documentation it would be it does not work. Just because I do not know how to make it work. That may well be, but my point still stands: you can decide on what you spend your own time, but you can not make demands from other people. This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. Does this ring a bell? In Libre Software, the people who eventually decide are the people who do the work. Some can be swayed by relevant arguments or eloquent pleas, but in the end they decide. If you are not happy with the decision and do not manage to sway it, you still have the option of doing the work yourself (or hiring someone to do so for you): then you get to decide. The opposite behaviour, I believe, is called backseat driver. I humbly confess that I am mostly a backseat driver for the Debian project too, but I try to keep the unsupportive and unconstructive stuff for myself. Regards, -- Nicolas George signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 09:09:00PM +0200, Erwan David wrote: On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 08:31:55PM CEST, Martin Read zen75...@zen.co.uk said: On 22/06/15 18:26, Zebediah C. McClure wrote: What is the correct way to work towards not having systemd be installed by default in stretch? That depends on your goal. If your goal is to have a dpkg-based Linux distribution which leverages the good work done in Debian and does not use systemd as the init daemon, you might do well to consider contributing to the Devuan project whichever of money, labour, or cheerleading is most mutually congenial. If your goal is for something other than systemd to be the default init system of Debian stretch, then *well* before stretch enters freeze, you need to have contributed to Debian a system initialization and service management system that over 50% of active Debian Developers think is an adequate *replacement* for systemd. I have a stretch with only parts of systemd and settings that I do not know how to replicate in systemd: How do I do ? There you go: http://debian.distrosfaqs.org/debian-user/preseeding-disable-systemd/feed/ This one quite good, albeit (partially) in German. Do ask here, we might help: http://noone.org/talks/debian-ohne-systemd/ This page is a huge collection. I don't particularly like its tone, but there you go: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page There are a couple of blog posts out there, I remember one by Erich Schubert http://www.vitavonni.de, who decided to take it down due to too much hate mail *by systemd opponents*, no less! (yes, you might delve in conspiracy theories and things, but *come on*). ISTR there was another good (was it Steinar Gunderson?) but I can't find it. Where so I find docs and tutorials to migrate ? Where can I discuss the problems (no here is not the place). As far as I know systemd (and the whole suite) is extensively documented. Every program has man pages. I'm sure there is Debian-specific info in the Administration Guide. There is a Systemd for Administrators by Lennart Poettering, I'm sure you can find it with the help of your favorite search engine. There may be many reasons to not like systemd (and I don't like it): lack of documentation isn't one, for sure. WHEN WILL THOSE SIMPLE QUESTION FOR A NEW SOFTWARE GET AN ANSWER ? They are out there. Come back if you have more questions. Regards - -- tomás -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlWJG7UACgkQBcgs9XrR2kbpmwCfT/KQ08xZNYL+Bs7hEI8vTMoy kpIAnR98fhmX2VnTJVR1yBx8UqKMWP/A =qOf9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150623084125.gb17...@tuxteam.de
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 12:04:57PM CEST, Jonathan Dowland j...@debian.org said: On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 08:46:39AM +0200, Erwan David wrote: If OI were to write documentation it would be it does not work. Just because I do not know how to make it work. If you can explain what the things are that do not work, one at a time, there is some chance somebody can help. Unfortunately a bunch of things don't work is not enough to go on. If you read me, first thing I ask is a place to ask : not a developers mailing list, because it would be OT on such list. Not here because it is not debian specific. For what I need to know : I have a headless machine with an encrypted disk. I cannot ask the password on console, so 1) at boot I do not mount the encrypted disk, and start a minimal set of daemons, among them the ssh daemon. 2) I ssh to the machine then mount encrypted disk and start remaining daemons. How can I do this with systemd ? Note that I use policy-rc.d to check whether the encrypted disk is mounted for the daemons that need it (it allows not to change the init files) As for read the man. man -k systemd gives me 145 different man page : when you do not know the architecture, where do you begin ? For beginner in systemd (but fluent in sysV init scripts) how to learn ? You get a bunch of unordered data, which does not help at all. How do targets work ? I did not find. What is the format of a unit file. No ini-like is NOT an answer, since it lacks a link to the exact definition of ini, and explanation of the like. etc, etc. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150623105934.gd2...@rail.eu.org
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 08:46:39AM +0200, Erwan David wrote: If OI were to write documentation it would be it does not work. Just because I do not know how to make it work. If you can explain what the things are that do not work, one at a time, there is some chance somebody can help. Unfortunately a bunch of things don't work is not enough to go on. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150623100457.ga26...@chew.redmars.org
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015, Zebediah C. McClure wrote: On Tuesday 23 June 2015 22:35:51 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Tuesday 23 June 2015 19:40:54 Mark Allums wrote: There certainly have been bugs in systemd, but at least half of the problems you've listed don't appear to be bugs in systemd, but are possibly bugs in some other package. We beg to differ. What evidence have you that the bugs are in systemd? It appears to be that they are new bugs in Jessie. That doesn't prove that they are in systemd! Lisi The bug is in the eye of the beholder, but I can tell you this, apt-get install sysvinit-core sysvinit sysvinit-utils apt-get remove --purge --auto-remove systemd Fixed my problems, and gave me a 100% working system. Did you check for any remnants of systemd (libraries, config files, etc.) still hanging around? Months ago while Jessie was still Testing, I installed a NetInstall Base System only in VirtualBox -- No X, no desktop, no window manager, no network manager, etc -- to test converting it to sysvinit (and later to runitinit). After the conversion (exactly as you did), there was still systemd stuff installed. Dependencies, it seems, for parts of the operating system itself. The conversion instructions I followed said this is normal and not to worry about it. Is it the same with your system? B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150623183322.16e22...@debian7.boseck208.net
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On Tuesday 23 June 2015 13:40:54 Mark Allums wrote: On 06/23/2015 11:45 AM, Don Armstrong wrote: On Mon, 22 Jun 2015, Zebediah C. McClure wrote: Non-booting system because of race condition in drive mounting. The ordering of drives by systemd is based on dependencies, and there shouldn't be issues. But that said, if you've found one, please file a bug with enough details to reproduce it. This happens a lot. Reproducing the problem is hard to do when it randomly crops up every 10th boot or so (yes, I need to reboot a lot). I haven't tracked it down yet but I also have sound problems on my desktop that only appear when systemd is around, Sound problems of what kind? I too have sound problems. Mainly no sound on startup, problem started during switch to systemd. systemd is [...] the only package that has caused me any headache. There certainly have been bugs in systemd, but at least half of the problems you've listed don't appear to be bugs in systemd, but are possibly bugs in some other package. We beg to differ. In any event, please file the bugs if you'd like them fixed. Otherwise, no one will know about them and/or fix them. How do we file bugs that are so difficult to reproduce? Mark, I did manage to solve the booting, lvm and mouting issues with systemd working. I also managed to fix syslog-ng routing by running both logging daemons at once (!), After looking at how systemd was designed I decided not to partake just now. There is still a debian package for sysv init. depending on your setup you might have some dependency problems, but this fixed my audio, network, and tape-block problems in one fell swoop. YMMV. from without-systemd.org: apt-get install sysvinit-core sysvinit sysvinit-utils reboot apt-get remove --purge --auto-remove systemd echo -e 'Package: systemd\nPin: origin \nPin-Priority: -1' /etc/apt/preferences.d/systemd echo -e '\n\nPackage: *systemd*\nPin: origin \nPin-Priority: -1' /etc/apt/preferences.d/systemd -- Ensis Technologies www.ensistech.com 1-888-373-9056 -- Confidentiality Privilege Note: This email and any files transmitted with it contain confidential and/or privileged information belonging to Ensis Technologies Inc.. You are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited without the authorization of the sender. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery for such person), you should destroy this message and may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, please kindly notify the sender immediately by telephone at (888) 373-9056. Any views expressed in this communication are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states otherwise. Nota de confidencialidad: Este correo electrónico y los documentos que lo acompañan contienen información confidencial y privilegiada para uso exclusivo de la persona o agencia a la que van dirigidos. Esta información confidencial está protegida por la ley de políticas de privacidad, y su distribución, diseminación o copia sin la debida autorización de quién los envía están estrictamente prohibidos. Si usted no es la persona a la que van dirigidos (ó la persona responsable de entregarlos a esa persona) debe destruir este mensaje y notificarlo de inmediato a Ensis Technologies Inc. al (888) 373-9056. Cualquier opinión expresada en esta comunicación es opinión del individuo que lo envía, excepto en los casos en que se especifica lo contrario. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1943000.WiRF0IxEHy@strata
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On Tuesday 23 June 2015 22:55:59 Zebediah C. McClure wrote: On Tuesday 23 June 2015 22:35:51 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Tuesday 23 June 2015 19:40:54 Mark Allums wrote: There certainly have been bugs in systemd, but at least half of the problems you've listed don't appear to be bugs in systemd, but are possibly bugs in some other package. We beg to differ. What evidence have you that the bugs are in systemd? It appears to be that they are new bugs in Jessie. That doesn't prove that they are in systemd! Lisi The bug is in the eye of the beholder, but I can tell you this, apt-get install sysvinit-core sysvinit sysvinit-utils apt-get remove --purge --auto-remove systemd Fixed my problems, and gave me a 100% working system. For half an hour at least. ;-) Glad to hear that your system is working. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201506232326.12391.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On Tue, 23 Jun 2015 21:51:40 + Zebediah C. McClure z...@ensistech.com wrote: echo -e 'Package: systemd\nPin: origin \nPin-Priority: -1' /etc/apt/preferences.d/systemd echo -e '\n\nPackage: *systemd*\nPin: origin \nPin-Priority: -1' /etc/apt/preferences.d/systemd Will the same pinning prevent systemd from installing when I dist-upgrade from Wheezy to Jessie ? Cheers, Ron. -- Un libéral, c'est quelqu'un qui croit que ses adversaires ont raison. -- Général Charles de Gaulle -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150623194851.1ad05...@ron.cerrocora.org
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On Tuesday 23 June 2015 22:35:51 Lisi Reisz wrote: On Tuesday 23 June 2015 19:40:54 Mark Allums wrote: There certainly have been bugs in systemd, but at least half of the problems you've listed don't appear to be bugs in systemd, but are possibly bugs in some other package. We beg to differ. What evidence have you that the bugs are in systemd? It appears to be that they are new bugs in Jessie. That doesn't prove that they are in systemd! Lisi The bug is in the eye of the beholder, but I can tell you this, apt-get install sysvinit-core sysvinit sysvinit-utils apt-get remove --purge --auto-remove systemd Fixed my problems, and gave me a 100% working system. -- Ensis Technologies www.ensistech.com 1-888-373-9056 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/6870171.cpFJIdRy4O@strata
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On 22/06/15 18:26, Zebediah C. McClure wrote: What is the correct way to work towards not having systemd be installed by default in stretch? That depends on your goal. If your goal is to have a dpkg-based Linux distribution which leverages the good work done in Debian and does not use systemd as the init daemon, you might do well to consider contributing to the Devuan project whichever of money, labour, or cheerleading is most mutually congenial. If your goal is for something other than systemd to be the default init system of Debian stretch, then *well* before stretch enters freeze, you need to have contributed to Debian a system initialization and service management system that over 50% of active Debian Developers think is an adequate *replacement* for systemd. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5588549b.8050...@zen.co.uk
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On 22/06/15 20:09, Erwan David wrote: I have a stretch with only parts of systemd and settings that I do not know how to replicate in systemd: How do I do ? That depends on which settings those are. Where so I find docs and tutorials to migrate ? I have no idea. Where can I discuss the problems (no here is not the place). Perhaps one of the venues for discussion listed at: https://wiki.debian.org/systemd#Where_to_get_help.3F might be useful. In particular, on examining the Debian mailing list archives, I note that the Debian maintainers of systemd appear to be willing to answer questions about how to do things under systemd when these are posted to the Debian pkg-systemd-maintainers list. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55886c1a.6000...@zen.co.uk
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On Monday 22 June 2015 21:27:40 Martin Read wrote: On 22/06/15 20:37, Zebediah C. McClure wrote: I think sysv is a great candidate to replace systemd. Which system init system is most likely to be considered to replace systemd? Honestly? None. The entire topic caused a great deal of incendiary debate among the people who make Debian happen, and I very much doubt any of them wish to reignite that any time soon. Certainly, go back to sysvinit seems likely to receive *particularly* short shrift. an entirely content Debian user, who thinks jessie is the best Debian release he has had the good fortune to use so far. I'm glad it works well for you. I honestly didn't have a position in the systemd debate. I've always run stable, and apart from the odd patch here and there it's been stable. For the fist time ever I've been hit with massive breakage across an update. Non-booting system because of race condition in drive mounting. Not correctly assembled lvm-raid volumes, Syslog-ng udp remote logging broken. Network manager eth0 auto-dhcp broken. I haven't tracked it down yet but I also have sound problems on my desktop that only appear when systemd is around, and some client's servers that can't correctly set their tape drive's block sizes anymore. systemd is a lot more all encompassing than init, or any of it's replacements are, and it's the only package that has caused me any headache. I'd love to see the debate reopened, I certainly wouldn't set it as default or mark it stable. zmc -- Ensis Technologies www.ensistech.com 1-888-373-9056 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2016317.F9s5BqtUlf@strata
Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
What is the correct way to work towards not having systemd be installed by default in stretch? zmc -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1593048.jWx3lSEsNp@strata
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On 22/06/15 20:37, Zebediah C. McClure wrote: I think sysv is a great candidate to replace systemd. Which system init system is most likely to be considered to replace systemd? Honestly? None. The entire topic caused a great deal of incendiary debate among the people who make Debian happen, and I very much doubt any of them wish to reignite that any time soon. Certainly, go back to sysvinit seems likely to receive *particularly* short shrift. (If you wish to understand why I say this, I suggest you read the Debian mailing list archives for the relevant period.) This is why I mentioned Devuan, which is an alternative Linux distribution that is built on top of the good work done in Debian and which has specifically rejected systemd as the init system. Debian - like any distro - cannot be all things to all people, after all. Regards, an entirely content Debian user, who thinks jessie is the best Debian release he has had the good fortune to use so far. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55886fbc.8090...@zen.co.uk
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 08:31:55PM CEST, Martin Read zen75...@zen.co.uk said: On 22/06/15 18:26, Zebediah C. McClure wrote: What is the correct way to work towards not having systemd be installed by default in stretch? That depends on your goal. If your goal is to have a dpkg-based Linux distribution which leverages the good work done in Debian and does not use systemd as the init daemon, you might do well to consider contributing to the Devuan project whichever of money, labour, or cheerleading is most mutually congenial. If your goal is for something other than systemd to be the default init system of Debian stretch, then *well* before stretch enters freeze, you need to have contributed to Debian a system initialization and service management system that over 50% of active Debian Developers think is an adequate *replacement* for systemd. I have a stretch with only parts of systemd and settings that I do not know how to replicate in systemd: How do I do ? Where so I find docs and tutorials to migrate ? Where can I discuss the problems (no here is not the place). WHEN WILL THOSE SIMPLE QUESTION FOR A NEW SOFTWARE GET AN ANSWER ? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150622190900.gb2...@rail.eu.org
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
If your goal is for something other than systemd to be the default init system of Debian stretch, then *well* before stretch enters freeze, you need to have contributed to Debian a system initialization and service management system that over 50% of active Debian Developers think is an adequate *replacement* for systemd. I think sysv is a great candidate to replace systemd. Which system init system is most likely to be considered to replace systemd? Thank you for your excellent reply. zmc -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1788166.9lqjPBUMRu@strata
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
Le quartidi 4 messidor, an CCXXIII, Erwan David a écrit : I have a stretch with only parts of systemd and settings that I do not know how to replicate in systemd: How do I do ? Where so I find docs and tutorials to migrate ? Where can I discuss the problems (no here is not the place). WHEN WILL THOSE SIMPLE QUESTION FOR A NEW SOFTWARE GET AN ANSWER ? As soon as you have written it and posted it. Thanks you very much for volunteering to make a valuable contribution to the Free Software community. Documentation, like software, does not write itself. And I do not think that developers should stop from integrating something that is a step in the right direction (which, IMHO, systemd, despite being over-engineered, is: having an init system that has actually a brain and not just a few reflex arcs) just because nobody volunteered to write basic introductory documentation. Regards, -- Nicolas George signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Change systemd to not be default in Stretch
On 06/22/2015 05:54 PM, Zebediah C. McClure wrote: systemd is a lot more all encompassing than init, or any of it's replacements are, and it's the only package that has caused me any headache. I'd love to see the debate reopened, I certainly wouldn't set it as default or mark it stable. Like the aftermath of ANY failed version upgrade, if it blows up, most likely old cruft left over from previous upgrades has finally caught up to you. Back up your data, reformat and install fresh. The vast majority of us have no problems with systemd, so we don't CARE what you think. There is no reason for us to go through another debate. It serves no purpose, is considered closed and off-topic. Especially when you can donate your money, thought and time to the Devuan project. Your talent will be welcomed there. You will find like-minded people and be welcomed. Be well and prosper. :/ Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5588d157.9010...@gmail.com
