Re: Dependency bug demonstrated???? - was [Re: Problems with custom install of MATE]
On Mar 08, 2022, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > Before I retired I spent decades in customer and engineering support.
> > Became familiar clashing desires and corner cases.
> > I wasn't looking at X needing a DM, but rather that if the DE {MATE in my
> > case} was going to be useful it had to start [preferably automatically].
>
> But you don't need a DM to start a session running MATE.
> [ You don't even need an X server installed, actually, since you could
> be running the whole DE remotely, tho I don't know how well this
> works nowadays. ]
Not very well, unfortunately. Used to use remote X servers all the
time.
It's passable for smaller applications, but there's a noticeable lag on
inputs.
--
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Re: Dependency bug demonstrated???? - was [Re: Problems with custom install of MATE]
On 03/08/2022 03:10 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote:
Before I retired I spent decades in customer and engineering support.
Became familiar clashing desires and corner cases.
I wasn't looking at X needing a DM, but rather that if the DE {MATE in my
case} was going to be useful it had to start [preferably automatically].
But you don't need a DM to start a session running MATE.
[ You don't even need an X server installed, actually, since you could
be running the whole DE remotely, tho I don't know how well this
works nowadays. ]
*ROFL* !!!
In my world [snicker]
MATE is my only connection to somebody's concept of reality ;/ ;/
;/;/;/;/;/
Re: Dependency bug demonstrated???? - was [Re: Problems with custom install of MATE]
On 03/08/2022 10:45 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
On Tue, Mar 08, 2022 at 08:40:02AM -0600, Richard Owlett wrote:
[...]
"apt-get --no-install-recommends install lightdm" solved #1 and #2.
Does that demonstrate a dependency bug?
Most definitely not. X doesn't need the DM to run. Actually there are
folks out there that want to start up in console mode and start X only
on demand (I did that, for quite a while, FWIW).
Before I retired I spent decades in customer and engineering support.
Became familiar clashing desires and corner cases.
I wasn't looking at X needing a DM, but rather that if the DE {MATE in
my case} was going to be useful it had to start [preferably automatically].
Disabling recomends is not... recommended by default (I do, but then
I'm willing to cope with the ocassional fallout).
But I'm on the other side of the quandary.
For my use case, installing recommends degrades my user experience.
A goal of the Debian installer team has been that anyone of any
experience level &/or familiarity with Debian could just install then
compute. They succeeded!
I want to grok Debian's internals well enough to come up with a solution
*I* like ;/! But not be offensive to the rest of the world.
Cheers
Re: Dependency bug demonstrated???? - was [Re: Problems with custom install of MATE]
On Tue, 2022-03-08 at 15:54 +, Brian wrote: > Users who install a package with "--no-install-recommends owe it to > themselves to investigate the conssequences *prior* to committing to > the action. Involving a communuty in the aftermath is little short > of thoughtlessness and lack of preparation. > > What is demonstrated is not a "dependency bug" but an unwillingness > to learn from the past and plan for the future. > I totally agree. Somehow after all these years Richard Owlett hasn't ended up in my kill file, but this is the final straw. -- Tixy
Re: Dependency bug demonstrated???? - was [Re: Problems with custom install of MATE]
On Tue, Mar 08, 2022 at 08:40:02AM -0600, Richard Owlett wrote: [...] > "apt-get --no-install-recommends install lightdm" solved #1 and #2. > Does that demonstrate a dependency bug? Most definitely not. X doesn't need the DM to run. Actually there are folks out there that want to start up in console mode and start X only on demand (I did that, for quite a while, FWIW). Disabling recomends is not... recommended by default (I do, but then I'm willing to cope with the ocassional fallout). Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Dependency bug demonstrated???? - was [Re: Problems with custom install of MATE]
On Tue 08 Mar 2022 at 09:06:27 -0600, David Wright wrote: > On Tue 08 Mar 2022 at 08:40:02 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote: [..] > > "apt-get --no-install-recommends install lightdm" solved #1 and #2. > > Does that demonstrate a dependency bug? > > Last paragraph of: > https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2019/04/msg01009.html I will quote that paragraph so that the OP will have it easily available to consult throughout this thread: BTW I agree with Georgios: if you don't install the "Recommends", you may find that you don't get the functionality you expect. The only thing guaranteed by installing the "Depends" is that all the function calls will point at some runnable code rather than just pointing into thin air. And I will add: Users who install a package with "--no-install-recommends owe it to themselves to investigate the conssequences *prior* to committing to the action. Involving a communuty in the aftermath is little short of thoughtlessness and lack of preparation. What is demonstrated is not a "dependency bug" but an unwillingness to learn from the past and plan for the future. -- Brian.
Re: Dependency bug demonstrated???? - was [Re: Problems with custom install of MATE]
On Tue 08 Mar 2022 at 08:40:02 (-0600), Richard Owlett wrote: > On 03/08/2022 07:32 AM, Richmond wrote: > > Richard Owlett writes: > > > > > As I have a very low data cap and wish to avoid some "recommended" > > > components I have done: > > > 1. a text mode install [including "standard utilities"] using > > > debian-11.2.0-amd64-netinst.iso . > > > 2. apt-get --no-install-recommends install mate-desktop-environment > > > 3. apt-get install xinit > > > 4. apt-get --no-install-recommends install xorg gparted synaptic pluma > > > > > > Between those steps were searches/fixes for some things that didn't > > > run as expected. > > > > > > Current questions/problems include: > > > 1. Why do I have to manually run startx at each boot? > > > 2. Although menu entries for gparted and pluma appear as expected, there > > > appears to be no way to launch synaptic. > > > 3. Although connected to internet [i.e. apt-get runs correctly], the > > > appropriate icon does not appear on MATE's taskbar. > > > 4. I'll be installing SeaMonkey but have forgotten how to have it appear > > > on appropriate Applications sub-menu. > > > > > > I've done it all before but can't find my references. > > > Help please. > > > TIA > > > > 1. Probably you don't have a display manager. Mate uses light display > > manager, and it is configured here: > > > > /etc/systemd/system/display-manager.service > > > > But there is a script or procedure for configuring it. Probably just > > install lightdm. > > "apt-get --no-install-recommends install lightdm" solved #1 and #2. > Does that demonstrate a dependency bug? Last paragraph of: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2019/04/msg01009.html Cheers, David.
Dependency bug demonstrated???? - was [Re: Problems with custom install of MATE]
On 03/08/2022 07:32 AM, Richmond wrote: Richard Owlett writes: As I have a very low data cap and wish to avoid some "recommended" components I have done: 1. a text mode install [including "standard utilities"] using debian-11.2.0-amd64-netinst.iso . 2. apt-get --no-install-recommends install mate-desktop-environment 3. apt-get install xinit 4. apt-get --no-install-recommends install xorg gparted synaptic pluma Between those steps were searches/fixes for some things that didn't run as expected. Current questions/problems include: 1. Why do I have to manually run startx at each boot? 2. Although menu entries for gparted and pluma appear as expected, there appears to be no way to launch synaptic. 3. Although connected to internet [i.e. apt-get runs correctly], the appropriate icon does not appear on MATE's taskbar. 4. I'll be installing SeaMonkey but have forgotten how to have it appear on appropriate Applications sub-menu. I've done it all before but can't find my references. Help please. TIA 1. Probably you don't have a display manager. Mate uses light display manager, and it is configured here: /etc/systemd/system/display-manager.service But there is a script or procedure for configuring it. Probably just install lightdm. "apt-get --no-install-recommends install lightdm" solved #1 and #2. Does that demonstrate a dependency bug?
