Re: Gnome/X stuff
On Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 11:36:52PM -0400, Mark Simos ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Somewhat OT, but reasonably close to this posting Is there a doc somewhere that describes window managers, display managers, etc. and how they interact with each other, X, and X programs? I am windows person and not too familiar with the extra layer of separation / interaction that X allows for in the GUI. I have no problem doing the old fashioned RTFM, I just don't know which FM to R :) There's the XWindow User HOWTO, try poking around in /usr/doc/HOWTO or http://www.linuxdoc.org/. This is a bit old-fashioned, but describes the fundamental layers of X to the windowmanager level. For an explanation of what Gnome and KDE do, I'd suggest visiting the appropriate websites: http://www.gnome.org/ and http://www.kde.org/. -- Karsten M. Self kmself@ix.netcom.com http://www.netcom.com/~kmself Evangelist, Opensales, Inc.http://www.opensales.org What part of Gestalt don't you understand? Debian GNU/Linux rocks! http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/K5: http://www.kuro5hin.org GPG fingerprint: F932 8B25 5FDD 2528 D595 DC61 3847 889F 55F2 B9B0 pgpvXHrf9A2Vs.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Gnome/X stuff
On Sun, Sep 10, 2000 at 01:02:30AM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Hey, Sorry about the block of text. Last night I had all sorts of this and that to stay awake, since I need to finish the Odyssey for school before it starts. Anyway, I didn'y get to sleep until 6:00ish, so I'm still a little out of it. Nada. Now if you'll wrap lines at 72 and reply to list, we'll be famous. For starting Gnome I'm just using 'startx' because I've worked gnome and my window manager into the Xsession file. What I have is something like: gmc path for window manager panel exit That's not exactly right, the exit line I can't remember right now, but I did it out of a book so it should be fine. Actually, you don't need the exit, though it won't hurt. You'll execute 'panel', then exit when it closes. So that's how I've been starting Gnome though. And I pulled the panel command out when I was using icewm. As for when I said session manager, I meant to say session save. Basically the whole bit that let's you start back up to your desktop just as you logged out of it. Right. I don't do Gnome (actually, just started messing with it for the first time in months tonight). As for the menu package, that's what I was missing, thanks for that. The sawfish package I did search for just as you said, but it didn't turn up, so I guess Linux Central didn't put it on the set. Is it new? I hadn't heard about it until this morning when someone said it worked well with Gnome without overlapping features. sawfish was recently renamed from sawmill. You might try looking at it from there. I did look at /etc/init.d/README, but it pointed me toward getting the debian-policy package and reading section 3.3 on run levels. I found a lot of info there, but it was so broad that I really had trouble getting what I needed to know. When you're setting programs to run or not at boot (specifically X), is it a matter a moving files around or more of a command line option type thing? Here's the short answer: - Various runlevels are specified in /etc/inittab. This tells you what level your system starts at (initdefault). - The directories /etc/rc?.d contain scripts starting S[0-9]* and K[0-9]*, which are symlinks to files in /etc/init.d/. The 'S' scripts are started, the K scripts are stopped, when entering a runlevel. - You can modify these scripts with the /usr/sbin/update-rc.d script. I found easily the files associated with X in init.d and various run-level folders, I just don't know what to do with them. I'm new at Linux, and I know I should really just shut up and read more, which I have been doing, though I'm going to boarding school tomorrow and I'm really trying to get everything up as quickly as possible. If you want to run the services, leave them be. If you don't want to, remove the packages for now. You may find that you want to look at configuring them various ways later, it's probably too much detail for you now. -- Karsten M. Self kmself@ix.netcom.com http://www.netcom.com/~kmself Evangelist, Opensales, Inc.http://www.opensales.org What part of Gestalt don't you understand? Debian GNU/Linux rocks! http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/K5: http://www.kuro5hin.org GPG fingerprint: F932 8B25 5FDD 2528 D595 DC61 3847 889F 55F2 B9B0 pgpRV52pEGFey.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Gnome/X stuff
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- You might want to check out http://www.plig.org/xwinman/ for a pretty good overview of what's available and what the features of various window managers and desktop environments are. It seems to do a pretty good job of covering the options; I'm not sure what level of detail they get into. noah On Sat, 9 Sep 2000, Mark Simos wrote: Somewhat OT, but reasonably close to this posting Is there a doc somewhere that describes window managers, display managers, etc. and how they interact with each other, X, and X programs? I am windows person and not too familiar with the extra layer of separation / interaction that X allows for in the GUI. I have no problem doing the old fashioned RTFM, I just don't know which FM to R :) ___ | Web: http://web.morgul.net/~frodo/ | PGP Public Key: http://web.morgul.net/~frodo/mail.html -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBObuZQ4dCcpBjGWoFAQFTyAP/YrQNa73prykh3yRxg8nWFI1+UyKy8zXQ 2oY3buLOy/kRUohvtle/tk0g2CasJhnPBoEkCAM5XVyfnXZONgBdAZRpfgnVoyGq elim6xX1UmVgUpc/BF/Ik1lt+c8mzt/0m1o6r2dBe8+yj8wvs8Y6Umsej6uo659x RpxHAVMM8dw= =oryx -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Gnome/X stuff
Okay, here's what's going down. I've put Gnome on a few ways. First setup I had going I was originally running Debian 2.1, then I went up to 2.2, and downloaded Gnome with apt-get. So it's kind of working fine, but it's also giving me some flak kinda. First of all the whole session save thing's not happening. When I log of using the foot menu it cuts right out, and the console informs me that the X server was unexpectedly cut. I can't do the save session command off of the menu either. If I click nothing happens, and I always get the same screen when I log back in. So yesterday I got a three CD set of Debian 2.2 from Linux Central, so I decided to just knock the whole partition out and reinstall with those disks. I hadn't anything installed in Linux yet, so that was fine. The first time when it gave me options for packages, I went wild on it, selecting things like Gnome complete, X complete, etc. That resulted in having way mroe programs then I'd use, of course, and X autostarting so that I could never see the command line, which I generally prefer, again. I don't know how to change all of that auto-launch stuff (can anyone help me out there), so I just knocked out the partition, and this time installed only the base system. After that I used apt-get to grab X and Gnome off the CDs. So up until this point I've been using enlightenment as a window manager, by the way, but it's got way too many things going on that really don't need to be there, in my oppinion :-) So I've tried icewm, which I like a bit more. Nowhere in all of this has session save worked. I ended up taking panel out of my Xsession file just to see what would happen. With the Gnome panel gone, logging off from icewm let's the thing gently log off (when I get back to the console it was perfectly aware that X was shuting down). However, session save still isn't working. Also, when I did this last attempt in which I just installed the base system and then X and Gnome, I no longer have a Debian menu. I was thinking maybe that's because X and Gnome are the only things installed, but shouldn't there be an empty Debian menu at least? That's kind of all that's going on. I'm using kernel 2.2.17 if that's important. Anyway, if more info is needed I can give it, but basically what I'm asking is: How do I get session manager working? Where'd my Debian menu go Am I short any packages I really should have d/led? Is there a window manager you guys prefer? I heard sawfish mentioned, where do I get that? (less/not so important question) How do I edit what programs are gettting launched at boot (e.g. making X *not* load at boot for the graphical log in). Thanks in advance for help on any of those. -Chris
Re: Gnome/X stuff
Note that the one huge block of text mode of posting is strongly discouraged. Post has been structured in paragraphs. On Sat, Sep 09, 2000 at 09:32:41PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Okay, here's what's going down. I've put Gnome on a few ways. First setup I had going I was originally running Debian 2.1, then I went up to 2.2, and downloaded Gnome with apt-get. So it's kind of working fine, but it's also giving me some flak kinda. First of all the whole session save thing's not happening. When I log off using the foot menu it cuts right out, and the console informs me that the X server was unexpectedly cut. I can't do the save session command off of the menu either. If I click nothing happens, and I always get the same screen when I log back in. How are you starting Gnome? Don't use a display manager, at least not until you get X working properly, and preferably not even after. You're introducing more options for error and making debugging more difficult, as well as introducing a requirment for the overhead of X when you are explicitly not using it (logged out of your X session). Try: $ startx -- 1 startx.log 21 ...and post any results or errors (which will be logged to the file 'startx.log'). If this starts a display manager other than Gnome, try: $ startx gnome-session -- 1 startx.log 21 Once you've got this running, the recipie is: $ startx -- 1.startx.log 21 exit ...so you don't leave your (unattended) console session open. So yesterday I got a three CD set of Debian 2.2 from Linux Central, so I decided to just knock the whole partition out and reinstall with those disks. I hadn't anything installed in Linux yet, so that was fine. The first time when it gave me options for packages, I went wild on it, Don't do that. Do a minimal installation with just the packages you immediately need. It's much easier to work out what's going on and address what's broken. You can add additional packages later trivially with apt-get install foo. [...] and X autostarting so that I could never see the command line, which I generally prefer, again. Switch to a virtual console with alt-F[1-6] (that's the alt key plus one of your function keys 1-12). I don't know how to change all of that auto-launch stuff (can anyone help me out there), Debian assumes you know what you're doing. If you've installed an X display manager, it's started for you out of /etc/init.d on startup. You can stop a service for the current session with: $ /etc/init.d/foo stop If you want to keep an X display manager installed but not have it manage your local session (this can be useful for XDM sessions), edit out the appropriate localhost displays in /etc/X11/*dm/Xservers. so I just knocked out the partition, and this time installed only the base system. You get credit for being a fast learner g. After that I used apt-get to grab X and Gnome off the CDs. This is the way to do it. Good. So up until this point I've been using enlightenment as a window manager, by the way, but it's got way too many things going on that really don't need to be there, in my oppinion :-) So I've tried icewm, which I like a bit more. Nowhere in all of this has session save worked. icewm, sawfish, and blackbox are recommended WindowManagers for Gnome. I prefer WindoMaker, with or without Gnome, not necessarially in that order. I ended up taking panel out of my Xsession file just to see what would happen. With the Gnome panel gone, logging off from icewm let's the thing gently log off (when I get back to the console it was perfectly aware that X was shuting down). However, session save still isn't working. Not sure which session save you're referring to. icewm's? Also, when I did this last attempt in which I just installed the base system and then X and Gnome, I no longer have a Debian menu. I was thinking maybe that's because X and Gnome are the only things installed, but shouldn't there be an empty Debian menu at least? That's kind of all that's going on. I'm using kernel 2.2.17 if that's important. Anyway, if more info is needed I can give it, but basically what I'm asking is: How do I get session manager working? Sorry, what's session manager? The Gnome session app? Your X display manager? Where'd my Debian menu go Do you have the 'menu' package installed? $ apt-get install menu Am I short any packages I really should have d/led? Yes. The ones you need g. Circular as this sounds, just keep the install disk(s) handy and add stuff as needed. Is there a window manager you guys prefer? I heard sawfish mentioned, where do I get that? $ apt-get install sawfish (less/not so important question) How do I edit what programs are gettting launched at boot (e.g. making X *not* load at boot for the graphical log in). See above. Generally, /etc/init.d, take a look at
Re: Gnome/X stuff
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- On Sat, 9 Sep 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: stuff about gnome sessions snipped session save worked. I ended up taking panel out of my Xsession file just to see what would happen. With the Gnome panel gone, logging off from icewm let's the thing gently log off (when I get back to the console it was perfectly aware that X was shuting down). However, session save still isn't working. is 'panel' in your Xsession the only command you were giving to run Gnome? You need more than that. IIRC it was recommended that you run you windowmanager in the background and run /usr/bin/gnome-session as the controlling process in the Xsession. Something like this: icewm exec gnome-session This, however, may not be exactly right in these days of Helix Gnome and stuff. That's just what I've pulled from my brain. I haven't thought about it lately as gdm has options for starting a gnome session which work fine for me. You could then run a panel (if you don't already have one) when you log in and save your session so it's always there in the future. Where'd my Debian menu go Make sure you've installed the 'menu' package, which is what actually generates the Debian menu. Then, in the panel preferences dialog in Gnome make sure you have the Debian menu enabled. Is there a window manager you guys prefer? I heard sawfish mentioned, where do I get that? I like Window Maker a whole lot. I like the wide array of pretty useful dockapps (great for monitoring system activity). The look feel is very clean and uncluttered, with zillions of themes at wm.themes.org. But what *really* makes me love wmaker is the ability to assign keystrokes to windows. For example, say I have my mailer running on workspace 1, bound to keystroke F1, and I go off to workspace 2 to do some coding for a while. Wmbiff notifies me of new email, and all I have to do is press F1. I'm moved to workspace 1 and my mailer is raised to the foreground and given keyboard focus. All with a single keystroke. I would never even consider using a window manager that didn't have this feature. If anybody knows one I'd check it out, but I haven't found it yet. (less/not so important question) How do I edit what programs are gettting launched at boot (e.g. making X *not* load at boot for the graphical log in). Check out the docs in /usr/share/doc/sysvinit. Basically you want to manipulate the programms started at the beginning of the runlevel that you boot to (look for 'initdefault' in /etc/inittab). If you're booting to runlevel 2, you need to manipulate the files in /etc/rc2.d/. These files are symlinks to scripts in /etc/init.d. If the symlink begins with 'K' then the script is told to stop the given service. If it begins with 'S' then the service is started. You want to remove S99xdm (or S99?dm really, since you could have kdm, gdm, or wdm...). Or, since you really don't even need the graphical login app installed at all, you could just do an apt-get remove xdm. Enjoy. HTH. noah ___ | Web: http://web.morgul.net/~frodo/ | PGP Public Key: http://web.morgul.net/~frodo/mail.html -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBObryVodCcpBjGWoFAQGkPwP/X+Psa11LAtDsEaKul5Dj7zAk4FG+Z6Zn HKvjQtgHvoCP3nCbyGUPokAKAvfxcCkI23bbkSzb/Ovz6gSf9FypHv27a4usAfSG VFGy19qm2OXe/mMBuM8J1oL1FiMazNmMrgOZF4Y4IZRUPEmA91phckgQyerEdb7G uK1bwbMVQzI= =sLF1 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Gnome/X stuff
Somewhat OT, but reasonably close to this posting Is there a doc somewhere that describes window managers, display managers, etc. and how they interact with each other, X, and X programs? I am windows person and not too familiar with the extra layer of separation / interaction that X allows for in the GUI. I have no problem doing the old fashioned RTFM, I just don't know which FM to R :) TIA Mark -- Mark Anthony Simos, MCSE Poet, Playwright, Swing Dancer
