Re: Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
2008/6/15 Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Does Google even index gopher sites? Yes, via the HTTP to Gopher proxy at http://gopher.floodgap.com/gopher/ e.g. A search at google.com on gopher sdf happy resulted in the 8th hit being a gopher site. but if you want to search gopherspace you are better off using veronica @ gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/v2 -- Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth. Emperor of Rome Marcus Aurelius -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
On Sun June 15 2008, Ron Johnson wrote: And as Paul Cartwright said, employers who want to block the web may ignore Gopher. [sarcasm]Because gopher's not the web?[/sarcasm] maybe they really don't know about Gopher, so they can't block what they don't know?? You have to remember, I was talking about the early 90's.. around 1993..We had a whole group of people that all had Sun workstations. Back then, they blocked outside use by sites, because there weren't that many:) Then they finally put a block on all external sites, but just http. -- Paul Cartwright Registered Linux user # 367800 Registered Ubuntu User #12459 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
I noted from a recent discussion on this list that iceweasel 3.0-rc2 has been made available in Sid and I was wondering what the plans are for support of the gopher protocol in Iceweasel 3? I ask this because support for the gopher protocol has been pulled from the core of FireFox 3 and I was hoping that Debian are not going to make the same (IMHO) mistake. Peter -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 01:31:07PM +0100, Peter Tynan wrote: I noted from a recent discussion on this list that iceweasel 3.0-rc2 has been made available in Sid and I was wondering what the plans are for support of the gopher protocol in Iceweasel 3? I ask this because support for the gopher protocol has been pulled from the core of FireFox 3 and I was hoping that Debian are not going to make the same (IMHO) mistake. well, Debian's Iceweasel is simply a rebranded Firefox. I would be shocked if debian put back in core functionality that mozilla took out... A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
2008/6/14 Andrew Sackville-West [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 01:31:07PM +0100, Peter Tynan wrote: I noted from a recent discussion on this list that iceweasel 3.0-rc2 has been made available in Sid and I was wondering what the plans are for support of the gopher protocol in Iceweasel 3? I ask this because support for the gopher protocol has been pulled from the core of FireFox 3 and I was hoping that Debian are not going to make the same (IMHO) mistake. well, Debian's Iceweasel is simply a rebranded Firefox. I would be shocked if debian put back in core functionality that mozilla took out... A I was under the impression that although Iceweasel started off as a simple rebranding project that the maintainers had greater ambitions and that they already made changes to the source that have nothing to do with the branding - am I wrong? Iceweasel (and FireFox) prior to version 3 despite a few bugs were the most convenient GUI gopher browser available and the loss of gopher support would be a big blow for gopher users. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 04:42:08PM +0100, Peter Tynan wrote: 2008/6/14 Andrew Sackville-West [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 01:31:07PM +0100, Peter Tynan wrote: I noted from a recent discussion on this list that iceweasel 3.0-rc2 has been made available in Sid and I was wondering what the plans are for support of the gopher protocol in Iceweasel 3? I ask this because support for the gopher protocol has been pulled from the core of FireFox 3 and I was hoping that Debian are not going to make the same (IMHO) mistake. well, Debian's Iceweasel is simply a rebranded Firefox. I would be shocked if debian put back in core functionality that mozilla took out... I was under the impression that although Iceweasel started off as a simple rebranding project that the maintainers had greater ambitions and that they already made changes to the source that have nothing to do with the branding - am I wrong? hmmm... I don't know that. You could be right, though a moderately quick google and reviewing the debian changelogs suggests that it is largely just rebranding. Iceweasel (and FireFox) prior to version 3 despite a few bugs were the most convenient GUI gopher browser available and the loss of gopher support would be a big blow for gopher users. that would be a problem. A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
Peter Tynan wrote: I was under the impression that although Iceweasel started off as a simple rebranding project that the maintainers had greater ambitions and that they already made changes to the source that have nothing to do with the branding - am I wrong? So, let’s dig into our firefox_2.0~rc1+dfsg-1.diff.gz: * Changes to disable application upgrade (we want that to happen through apt-get) and change some other default preferences, * Changes to fix “make distclean” so that it really cleans the build directory, * Change not to build the “mangle” utility, * Change not to call netstat to generate entropy, which is useless on linux, * Changes to make Firefox® build and work on architectures such as hppa, mips, mips64, m68k, ia64, sparc64, alpha, and arm, which the Mozilla® guys don’t seem to care much for, * Change to add a preference directory so that users can put their set of customized preferences in /etc/firefox/pref, * Change to allow to build flat chrome without the zip utility, * Change to allow to use system library for myspell, instead of statically linking the bundled one, * Changes to allow to build s390 binaries on s390x host with s390 toolchain (same applies with x86 binaries on amd64 host with x86 toolchain), * Changes to work around bugs with the hidden visibility pragma on gcc, * Changes to make the pango backend actually build correctly, * Changes to avoid some error messages while trying to create Makefiles from inexistant Makefile.in’s, * Change to install in /usr/lib/firefox instead of /usr/lib/firefox-x.y, * Change not to build useless chromelist.txt files, * Changes to make helper applications with parameters work, * Changes to allow builds against GTK 2.8, * Changes to work around an Xrender bug, * Changes to make the Gecko/yymm string taken from preferences instead of being half-hard-coded (you could change it with preferences, but it would still be set to the hard-coded value at start time ; and you could change it again with preferences…), * Change to allow mice extra buttons to act as something else than a left button, * Change to allow to build with -Wl,–as-needed to avoid linking against a whole lot of useless libraries, without losing the link on libxpcom.so which is required by some extensions’ components, * Changes not to shlibsign the NSS modules at build time, since we’re stripping the binaries afterwards, thus breaking the signature. We do build the signatures later, within the maintainer scripts. That’s not that many changes, and most of them were taken from either some Mozilla® CVS trunk or the Mozilla® Bugzilla™. And most of those that were not taken from there have been sent, except those that really don’t make much sense outside Debian. -- Mike Hommey http://glandium.org/blog/?p=97 Overall, Ubuntu applies the same set of patches as Debian, plus some more. [...] So, while I’m at it, here is an exhaustive list of the bugs where we took or sent the patches that are applied to Iceweasel: #51429, #161826, #252033, #258429, #273524, #287150, #289394, #294879, #307168, #307418, #314927, #319012, #322806, #323114, #325148, #326245, #330628, #331781, #331785, #331818, #333289, #08, #343953, #345077, #345079, #345080, #345413. -- Mike Hommey http://glandium.org/blog/?p=99 That was two years ago, but I don't believe things have significantly changed. Simply comparing the size of the diffs suggests that the overall level of patching has decreased between 2.0 and 3.0: -rw-rw-r-- 2 dak debadmin 182K Apr 30 01:47 iceweasel_2.0.0.14-0etch1.diff.gz -rw-rw-r-- 2 dak debadmin 154K Jun 9 05:02 iceweasel_3.0~rc2-1.diff.gz You'll find much more and larger patches in things like the kernel, glibc, and OOo than you will in our forced fork of iceweasel. -rw-rw-r-- 2 dak debadmin 4.1M Jun 12 10:47 linux-2.6_2.6.25-5.diff.gz -rw-rw-r-- 2 dak debadmin 707K Jun 2 19:32 glibc_2.7-12.diff.gz -rw-rw-r-- 2 dak debadmin 82M Jun 1 17:02 openoffice.org_2.4.1~rc2-1.diff.gz -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
2008/6/14 Andrew Sackville-West [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 04:42:08PM +0100, Peter Tynan wrote: Iceweasel (and FireFox) prior to version 3 despite a few bugs were the most convenient GUI gopher browser available and the loss of gopher support would be a big blow for gopher users. that would be a problem. A Just to summarise the problems - Iceweasel (and FireFox) is the only integrated GUI gopher browser, most other gopher browsers just show the gopher menu tree and in some cases plain text documents with Iceweasel I can view images, html documents, flash files, sound files etc (assuming I have the appropriate plug-in) where as other gopher browsers would have to open another application, also other GUI gopher browsers have suffered from a lack of development in recent years (mainly (IMHO) because Iceweasel/FireFox did the job so well) which means they can look quite dated and lack a certain user friendliness (as far as I know the console gopher client -is the only dedicated gopher client still under active development). Peter -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 05:43:19PM +0100, Peter Tynan wrote: 2008/6/14 Andrew Sackville-West [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 04:42:08PM +0100, Peter Tynan wrote: Iceweasel (and FireFox) prior to version 3 despite a few bugs were the most convenient GUI gopher browser available and the loss of gopher support would be a big blow for gopher users. that would be a problem. ... Just to summarise the problems - Iceweasel (and FireFox) is the only integrated GUI gopher browser, most other gopher browsers just show the gopher menu tree and in some cases plain text documents with Iceweasel I can view images, html documents, flash files, sound files etc (assuming I have the appropriate plug-in) where as other gopher browsers would have to open another application, also other GUI gopher browsers have suffered from a lack of development in recent years (mainly (IMHO) because Iceweasel/FireFox did the job so well) which means they can look quite dated and lack a certain user friendliness (as far as I know the console gopher client -is the only dedicated gopher client still under active development). so for me, this is an interesting situation. But I don't use gopher. For you it must be downright annoying. Here's how it's interesting. Firefox provided a full-blown modern gopher browser that essentially killed the other gui gopher browsers by being vastly superior. Now firefox has dropped gopher support. I think that will do one of two things: 1) largely kill what remains of gopher, 2) spur development of gui gopher browsers that have languished. I would hope for the second option. I don't think it serves anyone to have a single dominant player for a given protocol. If the gopher protocol still has life in it (and I gather that it does), then the community will be better served by having motivation to pick up development of the other browsers, or perhaps incorporate better gopher support into the other web browsers. .02 A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
On Sat June 14 2008, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: so for me, this is an interesting situation. But I don't use gopher. For you it must be downright annoying. Here's how it's interesting. Firefox provided a full-blown modern gopher browser that essentially killed the other gui gopher browsers by being vastly superior. Now firefox has dropped gopher support. I think that will do one of two things: 1) largely kill what remains of gopher, 2) spur development of gui gopher browsers that have languished. I would hope for the second option. I don't think it serves anyone to have a single dominant player for a given protocol. If the gopher protocol still has life in it (and I gather that it does), then the community will be better served by having motivation to pick up development of the other browsers, or perhaps incorporate better gopher support into the other web browsers. a blast from the past:) http://seanm.ca/mosaic/ Development of Mosaic stopped in 1996 (official date was January 7th 1997). I have updated Mosaic so it will compile on a modern Linux system. I also added support for the gopher info tag. I remember using Mosaix for gopher sites, when MY COMPANY blocked us from using http sites, but they DIDN'T block gopher... I learned how to use gopher! -- Paul Cartwright Registered Linux user # 367800 Registered Ubuntu User #12459 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
2008/6/14 Andrew Sackville-West [EMAIL PROTECTED]: If the gopher protocol still has life in it (and I gather that it does), then the community will be better served by having motivation to pick up development of the other browsers, or perhaps incorporate better gopher support into the other web browsers. .02 A er... probably true but it will still be irritating when I have to switch programs just because the site I want to view is gopher (I hate having lots of windows open) - now where do I post to request that xgopher is be reinstated in the repositories :-/ Peter -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
If the gopher protocol still has life in it (and I gather that it does), then the community will be better served by having motivation to pick up development of the other browsers, or perhaps incorporate better gopher support into the other web browsers. Just curious, what advantage does Gopher offers over other protocols? -- Regards Koh Choon Lin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 01:31:07PM +0100, Peter Tynan wrote: I noted from a recent discussion on this list that iceweasel 3.0-rc2 has been made available in Sid and I was wondering what the plans are for support of the gopher protocol in Iceweasel 3? I ask this because support for the gopher protocol has been pulled from the core of FireFox 3 and I was hoping that Debian are not going to make the same (IMHO) mistake. Any extension to add support for this protocol? E.g. http://gopher.floodgap.com/overbite/ . -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
On Saturday 14 June 2008 12:43, Peter Tynan wrote: Just to summarise the problems - Iceweasel (and FireFox) is the only integrated GUI gopher browser, most other gopher browsers just show the gopher menu tree and in some cases plain text documents with Iceweasel I can view images, html documents, flash files, sound files etc (assuming I have the appropriate plug-in) where as other gopher browsers would have to open another application, also other GUI gopher browsers have suffered from a lack of development in recent years (mainly (IMHO) because Iceweasel/FireFox did the job so well) which means they can look quite dated and lack a certain user friendliness (as far as I know the console gopher client -is the only dedicated gopher client still under active development). I was looking for gopher sites to try out in response to this, and ran into this, which may be of interest: http://www.tekeeze.com/fun-sites/7-fun-sites-you-can-only-find-on-the-gopher-internet Evidently the gopher-internet is not at all dead. A little googling reveals that there's a kio tool for konqueror that's supposed to do gopher, it might be worthwhile to file a feature-request on the KDE bug tracker for this. -- A. -- Andrew Reid / [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
Peter writes: I noted from a recent discussion on this list that iceweasel 3.0-rc2 has been made available in Sid and I was wondering what the plans are for support of the gopher protocol in Iceweasel 3? I ask this because support for the gopher protocol has been pulled from the core of FireFox 3 and I was hoping that Debian are not going to make the same (IMHO) mistake. Iceweasel 3.0~rc2-1 still seems to support Gopher. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
2008/6/14 Andrew Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Evidently the gopher-internet is not at all dead. It's alive a kicking with active development of several gopher servers (including pygopherd in the Debian repositories), on the client side there is the console client under active development and as previously mentioned by Tzafrir Cohen there is the Overbite project which has along term aim of providing a cross platform GUI gopher browser using Adobe's AIR platform but which after the Mozilla people brought forward the planned pulling of gopher support for FireFox from FireFox 4 to version 3 has been on a short term work frenzy to put together a gopher plug-in for FireFox. I've not mentioned the Overbite project before now as I promised Cameron Kaiser that I would keep quiet until the official launch on June 18th and I'm still reluctant to talk about it even though some else has already posted about it here, suffice to say that it is a big improvement over the standard gopher rendering engine in FireFox/Iceweasel 2 - in that it looks prettier and fixes the bug which prevents FireFox/Iceweasel showing gopher sites that are not on port 70 and that if if gopher support is to be retained in the core of Iceweasel 3 the overbite engine is probably the one they should use. NB: There is a gopher search engine over at floodgap gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/ and for the gopher challenged http://gopher.floodgap.com/gopher/gw -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
2008/6/14 Koh Choon Lin [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Just curious, what advantage does Gopher offers over other protocols? I'd suggest reading gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/0/gopher/relevance.txt for a full answer. I think advantage is probably the wrong word it's an alternative, an example of the type of feature that makes it distinct from other protocols would be it's inherently structured menu driven hierarchical nature, then there is the fact that it doesn't need much system power to run - either from the server or from the client and it is I believe somewhat less of a bandwidth hog than http. Peter -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
2008/6/15 John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Iceweasel 3.0~rc2-1 still seems to support Gopher. It was in the early RC's of FireFox as well, as I understand it the final decision to pull it from FF3 was taken quite late in the day. Peter -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
Koh Choon Lin writes: Just curious, what advantage does Gopher offers over other protocols? The very fact that almost no one uses it can be an advantage. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 06/14/08 19:28, John Hasler wrote: Koh Choon Lin writes: Just curious, what advantage does Gopher offers over other protocols? The very fact that almost no one uses it can be an advantage. That's superficial logic. Practically, the fewer who use gopher, the fewer who create gopher pages, thus the narrower the range of gopher's usefulness. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Kittens give Morbo gas. In lighter news, the city of New New York is doomed. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIVHE2S9HxQb37XmcRAokZAJ9Ywzg+RDk7/BPUw8ZJT5r62BF2BwCcD3oJ o5CodgTVVi9zlvXI+3KOb8Y= =Xuum -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
I wrote: The very fact that almost no one uses it can be an advantage. Ron Johnson writes: That's superficial logic. Practically, the fewer who use gopher, the fewer who create gopher pages, thus the narrower the range of gopher's usefulness. *Sigh. _For some purposes_ the fact that almost no one uses it can be an advantage. A particular group of people may not care that few others create pages. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
On 06/14/2008 08:32 PM, Ron Johnson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 06/14/08 19:28, John Hasler wrote: Koh Choon Lin writes: Just curious, what advantage does Gopher offers over other protocols? The very fact that almost no one uses it can be an advantage. That's superficial logic. Practically, the fewer who use gopher, the fewer who create gopher pages, thus the narrower the range of gopher's usefulness. Ah yes, but with so few people using Gopher, very few computer criminals will write trojans against Gopher clients. And as Paul Cartwright said, employers who want to block the web may ignore Gopher. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 06/14/08 22:01, Mumia W.. wrote: On 06/14/2008 08:32 PM, Ron Johnson wrote: On 06/14/08 19:28, John Hasler wrote: Koh Choon Lin writes: Just curious, what advantage does Gopher offers over other protocols? The very fact that almost no one uses it can be an advantage. That's superficial logic. Practically, the fewer who use gopher, the fewer who create gopher pages, thus the narrower the range of gopher's usefulness. Ah yes, but with so few people using Gopher, very few computer criminals will write trojans against Gopher clients. And as Paul Cartwright said, employers who want to block the web may ignore Gopher. [sarcasm]Because gopher's not the web?[/sarcasm] - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Kittens give Morbo gas. In lighter news, the city of New New York is doomed. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIVKQcS9HxQb37XmcRAmYRAJ4zjWpk8TnYGTzf/BHXoDqIbgkKagCgonGM cNZ7n7AhORaEmjY5W2fuBzI= =yrZ0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 06/14/08 21:41, John Hasler wrote: I wrote: The very fact that almost no one uses it can be an advantage. Ron Johnson writes: That's superficial logic. Practically, the fewer who use gopher, the fewer who create gopher pages, thus the narrower the range of gopher's usefulness. *Sigh. _For some purposes_ the fact that almost no one uses it can be an advantage. A particular group of people may not care that few others create pages. OK, yes, for some purposes, where some is an extraordinarily broad and ambiguous term which could mean anything. Teenagers, terrorists and retro-computer (especially early-90s) fanatics are the first groups that crossed my mind as to who could profit from a faded-to-insignificance protocol. Does Google even index gopher sites? - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Kittens give Morbo gas. In lighter news, the city of New New York is doomed. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIVKaMS9HxQb37XmcRAl2TAJ9sF/CqLpGdr8IUovt861YB9yIqmACeJ0J7 fdB9pV0XivZm8oXL0kcXliA= =dlpj -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
