Re: Upcoming transition to Stretch

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 02 June 2017 10:11:40 Michael Milliman wrote:

> On 06/02/2017 08:52 AM, Fungi4All wrote:
> > A sneaky way to have fun and be safe, not a very responsible user
> > for testing and experimenting, but if you are so afraid of tgings
> > blowing up and not knowing how to fix them here is a trick.
>
> I really enjoy troubleshooting problems, and am not afraid to do so.
> Unfortunately, I simply do not have the time to do this on a regular
> basis.  I always learn a great deal when I do, and that is one of my
> favorite things do do :) .  I have always gotten very good information
> here on the list when I have had to troubleshoot.
>
> > Let's say once a day, at the time you turn on your pc, you usually
> > do updates and upgrades.  What if you reverse the order of things.
> > You read your list email, be forwarned of past 24hrs of trouble,
> > then do and upgrade, then do an update which will not be in effect
> > until you apply it the next day.  The next day the cycle continues.
>
> This is an excellent idea.  I already look through the proposed
> upgrades and pick and choose what I allow on a package by package
> basis, so I'm already implementing the most time consuming part of
> this process.  I also look pretty closely at what a particular package
> upgrade brings with it (i.e. libraries that may have an affect on the
> system as a whole) before I bring an upgrade in.  That way I can
> manage the risks involved.  I'm not bork-proof, but I haven't borked
> the system yet.
>
> > For me, I get really sad when there is nothing new to upgrade now,
> > even if I am the first to face the trouble.  But there is also a
> > backup system which is not yet updated, so work can still be done.
> >
> > Sid is real debian to me, the rest is just debian too refined to be
> > debian.
> >
> > On the other hand, resolv.conf is a package in even Jessie that
> > needs "manual" configuration to work.  Despite what you do it is
> > still linux in its finest.  No  matter what you do each day you may
> > never know what will you learn or have to learn to get things done
> > by the next morning.  Sleep is for windows morons.

Warning thread hijack...

My machines are all still on either wheezy or jessie because of kernel 
pinning, its a realtime rtai patched kernel and my app, linuxcnc won't 
run without it.

My home network is host based and all behind a dd-wrt based router.  So 
rather than fixing resolv.conf by making it immutable in my latest pi 
install, since I had the u-sd card still in the reader, I went thru it 
looking for anything that might want to scribble my resolv.conf into a 
one liner stating it was created by such and such and otherwise empty, I 
removed the exec bits from the those files attributes.  Then I fixed 
resolv.conf to do what its supposed to do.  Neither fix generates any 
error messages to spam my logs.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Upcoming transition to Stretch

[Michael Milliman]

On 06/02/2017 08:52 AM, Fungi4All wrote:
> A sneaky way to have fun and be safe, not a very responsible user
> for testing and experimenting, but if you are so afraid of tgings
> blowing up and not knowing how to fix them here is a trick.
I really enjoy troubleshooting problems, and am not afraid to do so.
Unfortunately, I simply do not have the time to do this on a regular
basis.  I always learn a great deal when I do, and that is one of my
favorite things do do :) .  I have always gotten very good information
here on the list when I have had to troubleshoot.
> Let's say once a day, at the time you turn on your pc, you usually
> do updates and upgrades.  What if you reverse the order of things.  
> You read your list email, be forwarned of past 24hrs of trouble,
> then do and upgrade, then do an update which will not be in effect
> until you apply it the next day.  The next day the cycle continues.
> 
This is an excellent idea.  I already look through the proposed upgrades
and pick and choose what I allow on a package by package basis, so I'm
already implementing the most time consuming part of this process.  I
also look pretty closely at what a particular package upgrade brings
with it (i.e. libraries that may have an affect on the system as a
whole) before I bring an upgrade in.  That way I can manage the risks
involved.  I'm not bork-proof, but I haven't borked the system yet.
> For me, I get really sad when there is nothing new to upgrade now,
> even if I am the first to face the trouble.  But there is also a backup
> system which is not yet updated, so work can still be done.
> 
> Sid is real debian to me, the rest is just debian too refined to be debian.
> 
> On the other hand, resolv.conf is a package in even Jessie that needs
> "manual" configuration to work.  Despite what you do it is still linux
> in its finest.  No  matter what you do each day you may never know
> what will you learn or have to learn to get things done by the next
> morning.  Sleep is for windows morons.
> 
> 

-- 
73's,
WB5VQX -- The Very Quick X-ray

Re: Upcoming transition to Stretch

[Michael Milliman]

On 06/02/2017 08:54 AM, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 02, 2017 at 08:40:38AM -0500, Michael Milliman wrote:
>> Thank you Siard and Greg.  This does clear up this part of the process.
>> Currently, I have my sources.list pointed at Stretch, recently modified
>> from pointing to Testing in anticipation of potential issues.  I think
>> I'll go ahead and set it back to Testing (which is the same as Stretch
>> at the moment, so it is just a name change) and see what the ride is
>> like.  I can always point back to Stretch (then stable) and do some
>> serious work in Synaptic if there is too much blood flowing :)
> 
> Uh, no.  If you track testing, and receive new packages after the release,
> you will NOT be (guaranteed) able to go back to stretch.  Downgrading
> has never been supported, and is manual and messy at best, impossible
> at worst.
> 
I have had to downgrade (packages, not entire system) before. It is
indeed messy, and depending on the package, impossible as the downgrade
can affect almost the entire system (ala libc6).  But it is possible to
downgrade the whole systemthe process is very, very messy, no doubt.

> If you want to play around with testing in a reversible fashion, you
> should set up either a chroot or a virtual machine.  (Or a separate
> bootable partition, or a separate computer.)  Otherwise, once you bring
> in something like libc6 post-release, you are *committed* to the next
> testing cycle.
This sounds like a great learning opportunity. I don't have quite enough
hamsters in the cage to run a VM with any degree of performance (I need
to buy a few more hamsters :) ).  But using a chroot may well be a good
option.  I haven't done anything with chroot in the past (outside of
certain packages that do some of that behind the scenes).  This may be
an opportunity to learn how to set one up.
> 

-- 
73's,
WB5VQX -- The Very Quick X-ray

Re: Upcoming transition to Stretch

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Jun 02, 2017 at 08:40:38AM -0500, Michael Milliman wrote:
> Thank you Siard and Greg.  This does clear up this part of the process.
> Currently, I have my sources.list pointed at Stretch, recently modified
> from pointing to Testing in anticipation of potential issues.  I think
> I'll go ahead and set it back to Testing (which is the same as Stretch
> at the moment, so it is just a name change) and see what the ride is
> like.  I can always point back to Stretch (then stable) and do some
> serious work in Synaptic if there is too much blood flowing :)

Uh, no.  If you track testing, and receive new packages after the release,
you will NOT be (guaranteed) able to go back to stretch.  Downgrading
has never been supported, and is manual and messy at best, impossible
at worst.

If you want to play around with testing in a reversible fashion, you
should set up either a chroot or a virtual machine.  (Or a separate
bootable partition, or a separate computer.)  Otherwise, once you bring
in something like libc6 post-release, you are *committed* to the next
testing cycle.

Re: Upcoming transition to Stretch

[Fungi4All]

A sneaky way to have fun and be safe, not a very responsible user
for testing and experimenting, but if you are so afraid of tgings
blowing up and not knowing how to fix them here is a trick.
Let's say once a day, at the time you turn on your pc, you usually
do updates and upgrades. What if you reverse the order of things.
You read your list email, be forwarned of past 24hrs of trouble,
then do and upgrade, then do an update which will not be in effect
until you apply it the next day. The next day the cycle continues.

For me, I get really sad when there is nothing new to upgrade now,
even if I am the first to face the trouble. But there is also a backup
system which is not yet updated, so work can still be done.

Sid is real debian to me, the rest is just debian too refined to be debian.

On the other hand, resolv.conf is a package in even Jessie that needs
"manual" configuration to work. Despite what you do it is still linux
in its finest. No matter what you do each day you may never know
what will you learn or have to learn to get things done by the next
morning. Sleep is for windows morons.

Re: Upcoming transition to Stretch

[Michael Milliman]

On 06/02/2017 07:03 AM, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 02, 2017 at 12:35:12PM +0200, Siard wrote:
>> Michael Milliman:
>>> As I understand it, Stretch will become stable in a couple of weeks.
>>> At that time what is now Sid (unstable) will become Testing. Is this
>>> correct?
>>
>> No, that is not correct. :-)  Testing will be unaffected.
>> Depending on how you configure /etc/apt/sources.list, you can either
>> have Testing continue as Stable, or the new Testing.
> 
> To expand on this:
> 
> Debian developers upload the new versions of their packages into unstable.
> During normal times, when there is NOT a freeze in effect, packages
> which meet certain criteria (no release-critical bugs, all dependencies
> satisfied, etc.) will be copied automatically from unstable into testing.
> 
> That process is not taking place now, because of the freeze.
> 
> It is not accurate to say that unstable "becomes" testing.  It's more
> like closing/opening a dam to prevent a river from flowing.
> 
> Furthermore, there is a "slushy" effect which is preventing developers
> from uploading (most) new packages into unstable.  Doing so would
> distract from the efforts to clean up stretch for release.  In essence,
> unstable is also mostly-frozen right now.  (Nothing is 100% absolute,
> because these are developers we're talking about.  They're like cats.)
> 
> After the stretch release, there is going to be a tremendous influx of new
> packages in unstable, as developers want to play with all their new toys.
> The unstable->testing dam will also be opened, so after a couple days,
> when packages become eligible for copying, they'll start to appear in
> testing too.  Anyone who is tracking unstable or testing at this time
> should prepare for Extra Fun.
> 
Thank you Siard and Greg.  This does clear up this part of the process.
Currently, I have my sources.list pointed at Stretch, recently modified
from pointing to Testing in anticipation of potential issues.  I think
I'll go ahead and set it back to Testing (which is the same as Stretch
at the moment, so it is just a name change) and see what the ride is
like.  I can always point back to Stretch (then stable) and do some
serious work in Synaptic if there is too much blood flowing :)

-- 
73's,
WB5VQX -- The Very Quick X-ray

Re: Upcoming transition to Stretch

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Jun 02, 2017 at 12:35:12PM +0200, Siard wrote:
> Michael Milliman:
> > As I understand it, Stretch will become stable in a couple of weeks.
> > At that time what is now Sid (unstable) will become Testing. Is this
> > correct?
> 
> No, that is not correct. :-)  Testing will be unaffected.
> Depending on how you configure /etc/apt/sources.list, you can either
> have Testing continue as Stable, or the new Testing.

To expand on this:

Debian developers upload the new versions of their packages into unstable.
During normal times, when there is NOT a freeze in effect, packages
which meet certain criteria (no release-critical bugs, all dependencies
satisfied, etc.) will be copied automatically from unstable into testing.

That process is not taking place now, because of the freeze.

It is not accurate to say that unstable "becomes" testing.  It's more
like closing/opening a dam to prevent a river from flowing.

Furthermore, there is a "slushy" effect which is preventing developers
from uploading (most) new packages into unstable.  Doing so would
distract from the efforts to clean up stretch for release.  In essence,
unstable is also mostly-frozen right now.  (Nothing is 100% absolute,
because these are developers we're talking about.  They're like cats.)

After the stretch release, there is going to be a tremendous influx of new
packages in unstable, as developers want to play with all their new toys.
The unstable->testing dam will also be opened, so after a couple days,
when packages become eligible for copying, they'll start to appear in
testing too.  Anyone who is tracking unstable or testing at this time
should prepare for Extra Fun.

Re: Upcoming transition to Stretch

[Siard]

Michael Milliman:
> As I understand it, Stretch will become stable in a couple of weeks.
> At that time what is now Sid (unstable) will become Testing. Is this
> correct?

No, that is not correct. :-)  Testing will be unaffected.
Depending on how you configure /etc/apt/sources.list, you can either
have Testing continue as Stable, or the new Testing.

Re: Upcoming transition to Stretch

[Jimmy Johnson]

On 06/01/2017 05:38 PM, Michael Milliman wrote:

Hi folks,  I'm currently running Stretch, and have been for a couple of
months.  As I understand it, Stretch will become stable in a couple of
weeks.  At that time what is now Sid (unstable) will become Testing.  Is
this correct? If so, how disastrous might it be for me to upgrade from
Stretch to the new Testing?  Will this be a usable distribution, or
would it be advisable to wait for a little while before doing so?  I
don't have a problem with running on the "bleeding edge" as long as
there is not too much blood :)


I've been running Sid on sda15 since Etch, sometimes upstream will lower 
a version, making the installed version obsolete, it's nice to have 
synaptic installed to see these things, fixing Sid is rewarding. This 
ride with Stretch has been bumpy too, my Nvidia was out for a longtime 
due to kernels and KDE Plasma problems causing an install of XFCE4 to 
keep updated and repair the problem, I'm still doing a workaround on 
i965 but it maybe fixed now, I have it patched and working for the time 
being using a Ubuntu 16.04 kernel, anyways if this sounds fun crank up 
gparted and slice off about 14Gb's, install Stretch and add Sid and 
change Stretch to Testing. It's always a learning experience. :)

--
Jimmy Johnson

Debian Stretch - KDE Plasma 5.8.6 - Intel G3220 - EXT4 at sda11
Registered Linux User #380263

Re: Upcoming transition to Stretch

[deloptes]

Michael Milliman wrote:

> Hi folks,  I'm currently running Stretch, and have been for a couple of
> months.  As I understand it, Stretch will become stable in a couple of
> weeks.  At that time what is now Sid (unstable) will become Testing.  Is
> this correct? If so, how disastrous might it be for me to upgrade from
> Stretch to the new Testing?  Will this be a usable distribution, or
> would it be advisable to wait for a little while before doing so?  I
> don't have a problem with running on the "bleeding edge" as long as
> there is not too much blood

just make a backup of the system and do it - too much talking about it does
not help. you are using the same anyway

Upcoming transition to Stretch

[Michael Milliman]

Hi folks,  I'm currently running Stretch, and have been for a couple of
months.  As I understand it, Stretch will become stable in a couple of
weeks.  At that time what is now Sid (unstable) will become Testing.  Is
this correct? If so, how disastrous might it be for me to upgrade from
Stretch to the new Testing?  Will this be a usable distribution, or
would it be advisable to wait for a little while before doing so?  I
don't have a problem with running on the "bleeding edge" as long as
there is not too much blood :)
-- 
73's,
WB5VQX -- The Very Quick X-ray