Re: Very old hardware...

[Mark Allums]

On 7/11/20 7:07 PM, David Wright wrote:

On Sun 05 Jul 2020 at 23:44:09 (+0200), Thomas Schmitt wrote:

David Wright wrote:

My 650MHz Pentium III (Coppermine) [...]

consumes ~50mA idling, ~300mA when busy. [...] at 220V


11 to 66 Watt. That's unusual for a full size PC of that time.
I knew some which issued 10 Watts already by noise power and could
heat a small sized office room in winter.


Sorry, "idling" is probably not the best term—I extracted the line
from a spreadsheet of power consumptions for a multitude of different
electronics and electrical appliances. For this PC, it means switched
on, but with only the NIC waiting for a wakeup call. So the disks, fan
and, I assume, the CPU, are not running. The ability to wake it up is
not something I currently use on this machine because of its
convenient location; though after shutdown, I don't rush to turn off
the wall switch.


The word you are looking for is probably "standby".

Mark

Re: Very old hardware...

[deloptes]

David Wright wrote:

> Sorry, "idling" is probably not the best term—I extracted the line
> from a spreadsheet of power consumptions for a multitude of different
> electronics and electrical appliances. For this PC, it means switched
> on, but with only the NIC waiting for a wakeup call. So the disks, fan
> and, I assume, the CPU, are not running. The ability to wake it up is
> not something I currently use on this machine because of its
> convenient location; though after shutdown, I don't rush to turn off
> the wall switch.

Idle is understood, when the CPU is doing nothing (but the PC is fully
running)

Re: Very old hardware...

[David Wright]

On Sun 05 Jul 2020 at 23:44:09 (+0200), Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> David Wright wrote:
> > > > My 650MHz Pentium III (Coppermine) [...]
> > consumes ~50mA idling, ~300mA when busy. [...] at 220V
> 
> 11 to 66 Watt. That's unusual for a full size PC of that time.
> I knew some which issued 10 Watts already by noise power and could
> heat a small sized office room in winter.

Sorry, "idling" is probably not the best term—I extracted the line
from a spreadsheet of power consumptions for a multitude of different
electronics and electrical appliances. For this PC, it means switched
on, but with only the NIC waiting for a wakeup call. So the disks, fan
and, I assume, the CPU, are not running. The ability to wake it up is
not something I currently use on this machine because of its
convenient location; though after shutdown, I don't rush to turn off
the wall switch.

> Google ...
>   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_III
> 22.41 Watt of TDP. That's about the same as with one 3.5 GHz Xeon core.
> But i'd say the Xeon core is about 20 times more powerful (64 vs. 32 bit,
> factor 5 of frequency, two hyperthreads).

Sure. But my Pentium III's CPU (perhaps not the OP's) is not the issue.
Rather, it's the ability of the mobo and box to host several PATA disks.

Here for comparison are some figures for a 2013-vintage Dell AiO 3011,
which is permanently on at the wall except when big storms threaten.
It runs off a dirty great brick supplying, I assume, the usual 19V. These
very approximate mA currents are obviously measured on the 110V side:

Powering on at wall switch  200 two second surge
Power connected, waiting for NIC wakeup  30
Powering on with its switch 350 one second surge
Running, at login prompt200-250
Unlocking encrypted /home   500 one second surge
Starting X  300
Running X   200-250
Starting firefox300-325
Compiling the linux kernel  I no longer do it :)

Cheers,
David.

Re: Very old hardware...

[davidson]

On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 davidson wrote:

On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 Andrei POPESCU wrote:

On Lu, 06 iul 20, 21:41:11, Andy Smith wrote:


I still wouldn't use OP's system for anything except curiosity or
maybe propping a door open.


That's probably the only use for which it is better than a Raspberry
Pi (or equivalent) ;)


Isn't OP's system likely to contain significantly more


s/system/machine/


user-serviceable parts than a Pi?

Maybe this is mostly of interest only to hobbyists, but it seems to me
OP expressed an interest in pursuing precisely that sort of hobby.




--
What do you want to take off? [hrzF or ?*] F
You were wearing a +0 robe.  The frost giant turns to flee.

Re: Very old hardware...

[davidson]

On Fri, 3 Jul 2020 Davide Lombardo wrote:

Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
GPU: RIVA TNT-2
HARDISK: 10 GB
FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
MODEM 56K
In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
Do you think I can install something different than the already installed
WIN98 system ?


This looks like a good fit.

  https://www.minix3.org/
  MINIX 3 is a free, open-source, operating system designed to be
  highly reliable, flexible, and secure.  It is based on a tiny
  microkernel running in kernel mode with the rest of the operating
  system running as a number of isolated, protected, processes in user
  mode. It runs on x86 and ARM CPUs, is compatible with NetBSD, and
  runs thousands of NetBSD packages.

You will want to refer to

  MINIX 3 Hardware Requirements
  
https://wiki.minix3.org/doku.php?id=usersguide:hardwarerequirements#minix_3_hardware_requirements

--
What do you want to take off? [hrzF or ?*] F
You were wearing a +0 robe.  The frost giant turns to flee.

Re: Very old hardware...

[davidson]

On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 Andrei POPESCU wrote:

On Lu, 06 iul 20, 21:41:11, Andy Smith wrote:


I still wouldn't use OP's system for anything except curiosity or
maybe propping a door open.


That's probably the only use for which it is better than a Raspberry
Pi (or equivalent) ;)


Isn't OP's system likely to contain significantly more
user-serviceable parts than a Pi?

Maybe this is mostly of interest only to hobbyists, but it seems to me
OP expressed an interest in pursuing precisely that sort of hobby.

--
What do you want to take off? [hrzF or ?*] F
You were wearing a +0 robe.  The frost giant turns to flee.

Re: Very old hardware...

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 06 iul 20, 21:41:11, Andy Smith wrote:
> 
> I still wouldn't use OP's system for anything except curiosity or
> maybe propping a door open.

That's probably the only use for which it is better than a Raspberry Pi 
(or equivalent) ;)

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Re: Very old hardware...

[Eike Lantzsch]

On Saturday, 4 July 2020 15:04:22 -04 Davide Lombardo wrote:
> On Friday, 3 July 2020 22:57:06 CEST Charles Curley wrote:
> > On Fri, 03 Jul 2020 19:17:33 +0200
> >
> > Davide Lombardo  wrote:
> > > Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> > > CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> >
> > It might be useful to identify the manufacturer of the computer or
> > motherboard, and search the Internet for documentation.
> >
> > You may want to add a network card and as much memory as you can
> > stuff into it.
> >
> > For installing, maybe a (temporary?) CD-ROM drive.
> >
> > I would use the netboot installation disk. Get a minimal console
> > only
> > installation going, update/upgrade as appropriate. Then add a GUI.
> > At that point, tasksel is your friend.
>
> Oh I forgot to list the dvd driver the PC is an Acer Aspire 8400, yeah
> at least would be good if I can add more RAM

yes, and get yourself a model 15 teletype as well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XLZ4Z8LpEE

SCNR
Cheers
Eike
--
Eike Lantzsch ZP6CGE

Re: Very old hardware...

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 07:11:31PM +0200, deloptes wrote:
> 128 and 256MB on the Geode - 12 years in service
> buster with sysvinit, postfix, openvpn and shorewall

I have a Soekris net4801 which is an AMD Geode 266MHz with 128M RAM,
put to similar use. I'm going to retire it this month but it's been
in 24/7 usage for 15 years.

https://twitter.com/grifferz/status/1276115086785069056

I still wouldn't use OP's system for anything except curiosity or
maybe propping a door open.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Very old hardware...

[deloptes]

Dan Ritter wrote:

> I can point to several VMs that are running useful things on
> buster in just over 256MB of RAM -- 384 would provide a fair
> amount of headroom.
> 
> nginx and mail and DNS and NTP and so forth, all at once.
> 
> I note that EBay has lots of used 256 and 512MB DDR RAM available for
> nearly nothing -- $5 to $10, the shipping will be about the same --
> and so making this a usable system is probably within reach.

128 and 256MB on the Geode - 12 years in service
buster with sysvinit, postfix, openvpn and shorewall

# free
  totalusedfree  shared  buff/cache  
available
Mem: 248996   145089096 168  225392 
225612
Swap:503996   0  503996

Re: Very old hardware...

[Dan Ritter]

to...@tuxteam.de wrote: 
> On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 11:37:28AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 05:34:25PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 10:13:14AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > > 
> > > [...]
> > > 
> > > > One of the benefits of wheezy is that you don't get systemd.
> > > 
> > > Buster runs fine without systemd.
> > 
> > But probably not in 64 MB.
> 
> Most probably not. My (fairly minimal) system makes about 500M. Half
> of it is Firefox. One third of the rest is Emacs (with a fairly fat
> file loaded, mind you). But still X and PostfreSQL and...

I can point to several VMs that are running useful things on
buster in just over 256MB of RAM -- 384 would provide a fair 
amount of headroom.

nginx and mail and DNS and NTP and so forth, all at once.

I note that EBay has lots of used 256 and 512MB DDR RAM available for
nearly nothing -- $5 to $10, the shipping will be about the same -- 
and so making this a usable system is probably within reach.

-dsr-

Re: Very old hardware...

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 05:47:19PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 11:37:28AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 05:34:25PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 10:13:14AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > > 
> > > [...]
> > > 
> > > > One of the benefits of wheezy is that you don't get systemd.
> > > 
> > > Buster runs fine without systemd.
> > 
> > But probably not in 64 MB.
> 
> Most probably not. My (fairly minimal) system makes about 500M. Half
> of it is Firefox. One third of the rest is Emacs (with a fairly fat
> file loaded, mind you). But still X and PostfreSQL and...

A desktop is completely out of the question.  I don't know why people
keep bringing it up.

As a *server*, it is conceivable that one could get buster installed on
it somehow, configure it to use sysvinit instead of systemd, and actually
boot the thing.  I wouldn't care to attempt it, but it might actually
work.  Or it might not.

The closet I've come to this was with a mail server that I used to have,
which had 64 MB of RAM.  After upgrading it to jessie/stretch, things
started to go quite badly.  Eventually the machine died, and was
replaced.  Honestly, that should have happened much sooner.

Re: Very old hardware...

[tomas]

On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 11:37:28AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 05:34:25PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 10:13:14AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > One of the benefits of wheezy is that you don't get systemd.
> > 
> > Buster runs fine without systemd.
> 
> But probably not in 64 MB.

Most probably not. My (fairly minimal) system makes about 500M. Half
of it is Firefox. One third of the rest is Emacs (with a fairly fat
file loaded, mind you). But still X and PostfreSQL and...

Cheers
-- t


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Re: Very old hardware...

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 05:34:25PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 10:13:14AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > One of the benefits of wheezy is that you don't get systemd.
> 
> Buster runs fine without systemd.

But probably not in 64 MB.

Re: Very old hardware...

[tomas]

On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 10:13:14AM -0500, David Wright wrote:

[...]

> One of the benefits of wheezy is that you don't get systemd.

Buster runs fine without systemd.

Cheers
-- t


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Re: Very old hardware...

[David Wright]

On Mon 06 Jul 2020 at 07:45:33 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 03, 2020 at 09:34:25PM +0300, Georgi Naplatanov wrote:
> > On 7/3/20 8:17 PM, Davide Lombardo wrote:
> > > Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> > > CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> > > DRAM: 64 MB SDDR 
> 
> > I'm not sure what is minimum RAM requirement for Debian Linux kernel but
> > I think that for desktop environment you'll need 1GB RAM at least.
> 
> This machine fails to meet the minimum spec for current Debian versions.
> You *might* be able to get it to boot with 64 MB of RAM, if you can
> somehow manage to get Debian installed at all, but there are no
> guarantees that even booting will work.  As soon as you try to run any
> applications or services, you'll almost certainly be thrashing swap.  And
> that's *without* X11.
> 
> The latest version of Debian that supports installing and booting with
> only 64 MB of RAM is wheezy (Debian 7), which is way beyond its end
> of life.

One of the benefits of wheezy is that you don't get systemd.
The snag with systemd is that booting is massively parallel,
just what you don't want.

> If the OP could double the amount of RAM somehow, then it might be able
> to run as some sort of minimal server (perhaps a static content web
> server), but even then, it wouldn't be worth the time and (literal)
> energy it would take.  They could buy modern low-energy-consumption
> hardware that would be immensely more powerful, and not very expensive.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Very old hardware...

[Celejar]

On Sat, 4 Jul 2020 19:19:35 +0200
"0...@caiway.net" <0...@caiway.net> wrote:

> On Fri, 03 Jul 2020 19:17:33 +0200
> Davide Lombardo  wrote:
> 
> > Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> > CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> > DRAM: 64 MB SDDR 
> > GPU: RIVA TNT-2
> > HARDISK: 10 GB
> > FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
> > MODEM 56K
> > In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
> > Do you think I can install something different than the already
> > installed WIN98 system ?
> 
> You could try some of those old floppy distros:
> 
> https://linuxmuseum.freedombox.rocks/FloppyDistros/
> 
> I don't think they have an installer to harddisk

I have very fond and vivid memories of my first experience with linux:
BasLinux, booted from floppies and run from a ramdisk, on a typical
system with Windows installed. I still remember the electric thrill of
typing an 'insmod' command for the ethernet driver module, and then (I
suppose after some sort of dhcp invocation) finding myself with a fully
working networking connection - amazing!

I don't remember what version I used, but the current
version, 3.50, boots from a couple of floppies, and requires a 386 and
12 MB of ram. It provides various options for a GUI, and it can be
installed to a hard drive:

https://distro.ibiblio.org/baslinux/

Celejar

Re: Very old hardware...

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Jul 03, 2020 at 09:34:25PM +0300, Georgi Naplatanov wrote:
> On 7/3/20 8:17 PM, Davide Lombardo wrote:
> > Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> > CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> > DRAM: 64 MB SDDR 

> I'm not sure what is minimum RAM requirement for Debian Linux kernel but
> I think that for desktop environment you'll need 1GB RAM at least.

This machine fails to meet the minimum spec for current Debian versions.
You *might* be able to get it to boot with 64 MB of RAM, if you can
somehow manage to get Debian installed at all, but there are no
guarantees that even booting will work.  As soon as you try to run any
applications or services, you'll almost certainly be thrashing swap.  And
that's *without* X11.

The latest version of Debian that supports installing and booting with
only 64 MB of RAM is wheezy (Debian 7), which is way beyond its end
of life.

If the OP could double the amount of RAM somehow, then it might be able
to run as some sort of minimal server (perhaps a static content web
server), but even then, it wouldn't be worth the time and (literal)
energy it would take.  They could buy modern low-energy-consumption
hardware that would be immensely more powerful, and not very expensive.

Re: Very old hardware...

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

David Wright wrote:
> > > My 650MHz Pentium III (Coppermine) [...]
> consumes ~50mA idling, ~300mA when busy. [...] at 220V

11 to 66 Watt. That's unusual for a full size PC of that time.
I knew some which issued 10 Watts already by noise power and could
heat a small sized office room in winter.

Google ...
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_III
22.41 Watt of TDP. That's about the same as with one 3.5 GHz Xeon core.
But i'd say the Xeon core is about 20 times more powerful (64 vs. 32 bit,
factor 5 of frequency, two hyperthreads).

I am still astonished about the ratio of 1 : 6 of idle : busy.
Some other component besides the CPU must be very good in saving power
when idle. And the idle situation must be really boring ...


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Very old hardware...

[James H. H. Lampert]

David Wright wrote:

Why do I keep mine? 1) Sentimentality, as it was the one on my work desk
when I retired. 2) Being a tower, it has room for up to 4 PATA drives.
The loaned Optiplex only holds one—after that, I'm down to an old PATA
caddy. 3) There's no WEEE here, so I'm not sure exactly how one gets
rid of it anyway.


Some years ago, I tried ordering a box from a local custom-builder. The 
fact that the BIOS and/or FDC on it would not accept dual floppy drives 
was an annoyance. The fact that Xerox Ventura Publisher (DOS/GEM 
Edition) would not run on it *at all* was the show-stopper. It went back 
about 24 hours after I took delivery.


I've since learned that there is at least one custom-builder that 
specializes in DOS boxes optimized for legacy apps, but with my "spare 
parts" dual-boot, I haven't had a pressing need to determine whether 
their boxes will run VPGEM (and they are not certain themselves).


--
JHHL

Re: Very old hardware...

[David Wright]

On Sun 05 Jul 2020 at 05:15:58 (+), Long Wind wrote:
> On Sunday, July 5, 2020, 12:59:02 PM GMT+8, David Wright 
>  wrote:  
> > Why do I keep mine? 1) Sentimentality, as it was the one on my work desk
> > when I retired. 2) Being a tower, it has room for up to 4 PATA drives.
> > The loaned Optiplex only holds one—after that, I'm down to an old PATA
> > caddy. 3) There's no WEEE here, so I'm not sure exactly how one gets
> > rid of it anyway.
> > 
> > BTW neither of these Pentiums looks like a museum piece to me, but
> > just so much junk, particulary if you upgrade it, or overwrite its
> > "authentic" OS. Unless you find a use for it, I guess the coucil
> > in your locality is obliged to dispose of it.
> 
>  such old pc is for fun, not for practical useyou can install old debian, 
> archive.debian.org
> actually i've just bought old pc for 199 yuan(one US dollar is about 7 yuan)
> it has 4G memory, intel E7500, 160G hard disk 
> it hasn't monitor/mouse/keyboard

Buy? I've yet to buy a computer. All my machines are castoffs.

> you can see how worthless such pc is

Certainly true, financially. Valueless—not so clear.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Very old hardware...

[David Wright]

On Sun 05 Jul 2020 at 12:06:12 (+0200), deloptes wrote:
> David Wright wrote:
> 
> > I was under the impression that i586 was a Debian invention for
> > kernels that had been termed i486, in order to prevent the impression
> > that they would run on 486 hardware (as they had done previously).
> > 
> > I would expect a 700MHz Pentium III to run a 686 kernel.
> > My 650MHz Pentium III (Coppermine) runs buster with the kernel in
> > linux-image-4.19.0-9-686-pae_4.19.118-2+deb10u1_i386.deb
> 
> I am not sure - this is what I am saying with those links.
> 
> In wheezy
> 
> Nearly all x86-based (IA-32) processors still in use in personal computers
> are supported, including all varieties of Intel's "Pentium" series. 
> https://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/i386/ch02s01.html.en
> 
> But this statement is missing later (especially the last part regarding
> Pentium series)
> 
> How I know this - some years ago I had to start building kernel for Geode,
> because it is i586. And reading around noticed the notification that older
> models are not supported by default debian kernel.
> 
> This means that OP has to build kernel to run it. In such case I debootstrap
> debian and install the custom kernel.

The lone word "Pentium" can be confusing in this context, as it covers
many lines of processors stretching back 25 years. The OP wrote at the
start of the OP:

   "Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;"

The only Pentium III older than my own is the Katmai, and it could
only be cranked up to 600MHz. By the time jessie was released, my
Coppermine was the oldest processor I still ran, so I didn't check
whether Katmai, which had design compromises related to its Pentium II
heritage, fell below the bar.

I don't know whether all III models, particularly the mobiles,
support pae, but there are still non-pae kernels in Debian.
My worry is not the processor but the amount of memory. It might
be easy to pick up more via the web.

> As people suggested it is not worth the power it consumes. For 35-50$ you
> have a low power device with more computing power, but of course you decide
> what to do with your hardware and electricity bills. 

I can't speak for the OP. My own PC consumes ~50mA idling, ~300mA
when busy. That's without the monitor, which is normally switched off
(hard switch) because I use ssh. (Those were measured at 220V.)

Most of the time in summer the PC too is switched off (hard),
with 80s ambient temperature. In winter, I leave it on more,
as any warmth is appreciated. (OK, I'll grant you, it's consuming
electricity rather than gas, increasing the financial cost.)

As for buying more computing power, what would I use it for—I already
have a laptop and desktop (both i5, 4 processors) that provide ample.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Very old hardware...

[James H. H. Lampert]

My DOS/Linux dual-boot at home was constructed from spare parts, 
including a cast-off Dell motherboard from work that is old enough to 
support two physical floppy drives (it has a 360k and a 1.44M).


It runs IBM PC-DOS 2000 (lightning fast), with DOSSHELL, WordPerfect 
5.1, Quattro, and Xerox Ventura Publisher (DOS/GEM Edition).


And it runs Ubuntu Hardy Heron, with a fairly old version of Gnome. 
Perhaps if I were configuring the Linux side of it today, I might have 
used Debian, and consulted this List for guidance.


It does NOT run WinDoze, and neither does my PC-DOS 2000 notebook (a 
486). I don't allow WinDoze in the house.


And as to computer museums, I highly recommend the CHM, in Mountain 
View, CA. The only real fault I've ever found with it is that they did 
not see fit to include an IBM Merlin (neither a drive, nor even a pack) 
in their early removable-pack hard drive exhibit.


--
James H. H. Lampert

Re: Very old hardware...

[Tixy]

On Sun, 2020-07-05 at 12:06 +0200, deloptes wrote:
> David Wright wrote:
> 
> > I was under the impression that i586 was a Debian invention for
> > kernels that had been termed i486, in order to prevent the impression
> > that they would run on 486 hardware (as they had done previously).
> > 
> > I would expect a 700MHz Pentium III to run a 686 kernel.
> > My 650MHz Pentium III (Coppermine) runs buster with the kernel in
> > linux-image-4.19.0-9-686-pae_4.19.118-2+deb10u1_i386.deb
> > 
> 
> I am not sure - this is what I am saying with those links.
> 
> In wheezy
> 
> Nearly all x86-based (IA-32) processors still in use in personal computers
> are supported, including all varieties of Intel's "Pentium" series. 
> https://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/i386/ch02s01.html.en
> 
> But this statement is missing later (especially the last part regarding
> Pentium series)
> 
> How I know this - some years ago I had to start building kernel for Geode,
> because it is i586. And reading around noticed the notification that older
> models are not supported by default debian kernel.
> 
> This means that OP has to build kernel to run it.

Except that in David's post you quoted, he said he's running a Buster
kernel on his Pentium III (same CPU series as the OP said he had).

Also, the release notes for Buster mention in section 5.1.10. that
WebKit2GTK required SSE2 support so will crash on Pentium III or Geode.
It also says 'The first update of webkit2gtk in buster is expected to
restore support for these systems'

So it's obvious that Buster in general works on Pentium III, and the OP
can expect it to install and work if they want to try. No custom
kernels needed.

-- 
Tixy

Re: Very old hardware...

[deloptes]

David Wright wrote:

> I was under the impression that i586 was a Debian invention for
> kernels that had been termed i486, in order to prevent the impression
> that they would run on 486 hardware (as they had done previously).
> 
> I would expect a 700MHz Pentium III to run a 686 kernel.
> My 650MHz Pentium III (Coppermine) runs buster with the kernel in
> linux-image-4.19.0-9-686-pae_4.19.118-2+deb10u1_i386.deb
> 

I am not sure - this is what I am saying with those links.

In wheezy

Nearly all x86-based (IA-32) processors still in use in personal computers
are supported, including all varieties of Intel's "Pentium" series. 
https://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/i386/ch02s01.html.en

But this statement is missing later (especially the last part regarding
Pentium series)

How I know this - some years ago I had to start building kernel for Geode,
because it is i586. And reading around noticed the notification that older
models are not supported by default debian kernel.

This means that OP has to build kernel to run it. In such case I debootstrap
debian and install the custom kernel.

> My typical installation uses around 9GB, but that includes things like
> TeX and LibreOffice. No DE though. I don't think you'd be running
> anything like that, particularly with only 64MB memory (my video card
> has half that). The first thing I did when I acquired mine (in 2003)
> was to install 512MB of ECC and a bigger disk (30GB IIRC).
> Nowadays, it makes a satisfactory file server.
> 
> Why do I keep mine? 1) Sentimentality, as it was the one on my work desk
> when I retired. 2) Being a tower, it has room for up to 4 PATA drives.
> The loaned Optiplex only holds one—after that, I'm down to an old PATA
> caddy. 3) There's no WEEE here, so I'm not sure exactly how one gets
> rid of it anyway.
> 
> BTW neither of these Pentiums looks like a museum piece to me, but
> just so much junk, particulary if you upgrade it, or overwrite its
> "authentic" OS. Unless you find a use for it, I guess the coucil
> in your locality is obliged to dispose of it.

As people suggested it is not worth the power it consumes. For 35-50$ you
have a low power device with more computing power, but of course you decide
what to do with your hardware and electricity bills. 

regards

Re: Very old hardware...

[David]

On Sun, 2020-07-05 at 16:33 +1000, Keith bainbridge wrote:
> On 4/7/20 12:08 pm, Kenneth Parker wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 1:49 PM Jude DaShiell  > > wrote:
> > 
> > Debian with xfce or mate or cinnamon may install and run well. 
> > I don't
> > recommend gnome.
> > 
> > 
> > +1
> 
> +1 more
> 
> 
> I'm just note sure that 64M ram is going to cut it.
> 
> 
> I saw that you have a DVD, so try a couple of live .iso and see how
> they go.
> 
> 
Morning List,

I'd try Devuan on this old hardware, works well for me on old thin
clients.

David.

Re: Very old hardware...

[Keith bainbridge]

On 5/7/20 1:50 am, Davide Lombardo wrote:

Maybe I can just setup this PC as a Tor's Relay



Again, the Pi would likely be better



--

Keith Bainbridge

keithr...@gmail.com

0447 667468

Re: Very old hardware...

[Keith bainbridge]

On 4/7/20 12:10 pm, David Christensen wrote:



On 2020-07-03 11:58, Michael Stone wrote:
 > For practical purposes, you'd be better off with a $35 raspberry PI.

+1


+1 more

iI have a Pi 3b with 1G ram and it does pretty well - even thought I'm 
used to an i7 with 8G ram  and SSD




On 2020-07-03 12:30, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
 > The ratio of power consumption to
 > computing power is like with an old 100 W light bulb.

+1


I hadn't thought of that bit, but guess it's true.

Then there is the matter of replacing broken bits


--

Keith Bainbridge

keithr...@gmail.com

0447 667468

Re: Very old hardware...

[Keith bainbridge]

On 4/7/20 12:08 pm, Kenneth Parker wrote:



On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 1:49 PM Jude DaShiell > wrote:


Debian with xfce or mate or cinnamon may install and run well.  I don't
recommend gnome.


+1


+1 more


I'm just note sure that 64M ram is going to cut it.


I saw that you have a DVD, so try a couple of live .iso and see how they go.





--

Keith Bainbridge

keithr...@gmail.com

0447 667468

Re: Very old hardware...

[David Wright]

On Sun 05 Jul 2020 at 04:35:49 (+0200), deloptes wrote:
> Davide Lombardo wrote:
> > On Friday, 3 July 2020 20:58:52 CEST Michael Stone wrote:
> >> On Fri, Jul 03, 2020 at 07:17:33PM +0200, Davide Lombardo wrote:
> >> >Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> >> >CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> >> >DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
> >> >GPU: RIVA TNT-2
> >> >HARDISK: 10 GB
> >> >FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
> >> >MODEM 56K
> >> >In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
> >> >Do you think I can install something different than the already
> >> >installed WIN98 system ?
> >> 
> >> If the goal is just to experiment then you could run an older version of
> >> debian. (I think there's not enough memory for the current install
> >> routine.) OpenBSD or NetBSD or a linux distribution oriented toward
> >> small systems would run. Nothing will give you a good experience with a
> >> GUI and web browser on that hardware. For practical purposes, you'd be
> >> better off with a $35 raspberry PI.
> > 
> > Maybe I can just setup this PC as a Tor's Relay
> 
> Cite: 
> 
> However, Debian GNU/Linux stretch willnot run on 586 (Pentium) or earlier
> processors. 
> https://www.debian.org/releases/stretch/i386/ch02s01.html.en
> +
> https://www.debian.org/releases/buster/i386/ch02s01.en.html

I was under the impression that i586 was a Debian invention for
kernels that had been termed i486, in order to prevent the impression
that they would run on 486 hardware (as they had done previously).

I would expect a 700MHz Pentium III to run a 686 kernel.
My 650MHz Pentium III (Coppermine) runs buster with the kernel in
linux-image-4.19.0-9-686-pae_4.19.118-2+deb10u1_i386.deb

My typical installation uses around 9GB, but that includes things like
TeX and LibreOffice. No DE though. I don't think you'd be running
anything like that, particularly with only 64MB memory (my video card
has half that). The first thing I did when I acquired mine (in 2003)
was to install 512MB of ECC and a bigger disk (30GB IIRC).
Nowadays, it makes a satisfactory file server.

Why do I keep mine? 1) Sentimentality, as it was the one on my work desk
when I retired. 2) Being a tower, it has room for up to 4 PATA drives.
The loaned Optiplex only holds one—after that, I'm down to an old PATA
caddy. 3) There's no WEEE here, so I'm not sure exactly how one gets
rid of it anyway.

BTW neither of these Pentiums looks like a museum piece to me, but
just so much junk, particulary if you upgrade it, or overwrite its
"authentic" OS. Unless you find a use for it, I guess the coucil
in your locality is obliged to dispose of it.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Very old hardware...

[deloptes]

Davide Lombardo wrote:

> On Friday, 3 July 2020 20:58:52 CEST Michael Stone wrote:
>> On Fri, Jul 03, 2020 at 07:17:33PM +0200, Davide Lombardo wrote:
>> >Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
>> >CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
>> >DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
>> >GPU: RIVA TNT-2
>> >HARDISK: 10 GB
>> >FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
>> >MODEM 56K
>> >In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
>> >Do you think I can install something different than the already
>> >installed WIN98 system ?
>> 
>> If the goal is just to experiment then you could run an older version of
>> debian. (I think there's not enough memory for the current install
>> routine.) OpenBSD or NetBSD or a linux distribution oriented toward
>> small systems would run. Nothing will give you a good experience with a
>> GUI and web browser on that hardware. For practical purposes, you'd be
>> better off with a $35 raspberry PI.
> 
> Maybe I can just setup this PC as a Tor's Relay

Cite: 

However, Debian GNU/Linux stretch willnot run on 586 (Pentium) or earlier
processors. 
https://www.debian.org/releases/stretch/i386/ch02s01.html.en
+
https://www.debian.org/releases/buster/i386/ch02s01.en.html

Re: Very old hardware...

[Davide Lombardo]

On Saturday, 4 July 2020 04:08:25 CEST Kenneth Parker wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 1:49 PM Jude DaShiell  wrote:
> > Debian with xfce or mate or cinnamon may install and run well.  I don't
> > recommend gnome.
> 
> +1
> 
> Funny story:  A few years ago, I installed a Text-only Minimal Ubuntu
> system and then made one of the worst single commands in my career:
> "apt-get install gnome".  What made it so bad was that, based on the
> sequence of previous commands, the fact that it was Ubuntu, and my Install
> Options, I ended up with Gnome Files for every Locale in the World!  It
> took a while to clean this up!
> 
> > On Fri, 3 Jul 2020, Davide Lombardo wrote:
> > > Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 13:17:33
> > > From: Davide Lombardo 
> > > To: Debian-user List Debian 
> > > Subject: Very old hardware...
> > > 
> > > Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> > > CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> > > DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
> > > GPU: RIVA TNT-2
> > > HARDISK: 10 GB
> > > FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
> > > MODEM 56K
> > > In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
> > > Do you think I can install something different than the already
> > > installed
> > > WIN98 system ?
> 
> Brings back memories.  That was the last one I could bring up, in command
> mode, with the command "win" bringing up the Windows Infrastructure.  I
> tried to do that with Windows ME and was never successful.
> 
> Suggestion:  Don't throw anything away:  I think there are YouTube Videos,
> about running Linux on Floppy Disks.
> 
> Kenneth Parker
Thanks, the computer has a dvd burner I forgot to put it in the list


signature.asc
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Re: Very old hardware...

[Davide Lombardo]

On Friday, 3 July 2020 20:01:50 CEST Christian Groessler wrote:
> 3000 Lire?
> 
> Did you mean 3.000,000 Lire?
> 
> regards,
> chris
> 
> On 2020-07-03 19:17, Davide Lombardo wrote:
> > Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> > CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> > DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
> > GPU: RIVA TNT-2
> > HARDISK: 10 GB
> > FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
> > MODEM 56K
> > In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
> > Do you think I can install something different than the already installed
> > WIN98 system ?
Yes 


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: Computer Museum (was Re: Very old hardware...)

[Ralph Katz]

On 7/3/20 5:40 PM, Kenneth Parker wrote:
> This is, actually something I would like to do.  Anyone know of good
> Computer Museums in areas they've been in?  (I remember a good one,
> South of San Francisco, but that's on the other side of the Country from
> North Carolina).
> 
> I have a couple that I REALLY want to make work, in a Museum
> Environment:  A G3 Apple iBook, with the last Dual Boot to Apple's OS-9
> (with OS X Jaguar on the other side.  Look THAT up!).  I also have an
> Apple G4 iMac "Desk Lamp", where the Disk Drive gave out.  (And it had
> the Archive of my Classical Music CD Collection).  To get, at least a
> *little* back on Topic, I successfully booted an old Debian DVD on the
> iMac (which, by the way, last ran OS X Panther).  Unfortunately, it had
> trouble with the Graphics.  But, with the knowledge from these last
> couple years, I'm sure I can find Firmware and Drivers that could work.
> 
> Yes, in the olden days, I liked Apple.  Then, they dropped Power PC and
> I was Livid!  (What's the best protection, from Windows Viruses?  How
> about a totally different CPU Architecture, where the Virus can't get
> anywhere.
> 
> Anyway, I am, right now, experiencing why Debian is so much better for
> Computer Experts than Ubuntu or, Especially Mint.  (The Mint Install
> only works from its Live DVD, which I am running on XFCE, on a Lenovo
> Ideapad 320.  What could possibly go wrong?)  So, for anyone who is
> looking for Debian-like Alternatives, I give Thumbs Down on Mint 20, but
> *do* have a message in their Forum.
> 
> But back to the Computer Museum, anyone else experience those?
> 
> Thanks for being patient with me.
> 
> Kenneth Parker

[snip]

List of computer museums

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_computer_museums

I was familiar with Boston's Computer Museum long ago, now part of The
Computer History Museum in California.  See wikipedia link above.

Good luck Kenneth.

Regards,
Ralph

Re: Very old hardware...

[Davide Lombardo]

On Friday, 3 July 2020 22:57:06 CEST Charles Curley wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Jul 2020 19:17:33 +0200
> 
> Davide Lombardo  wrote:
> > Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> > CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> 
> It might be useful to identify the manufacturer of the computer or
> motherboard, and search the Internet for documentation.
> 
> You may want to add a network card and as much memory as you can stuff
> into it.
> 
> For installing, maybe a (temporary?) CD-ROM drive.
> 
> I would use the netboot installation disk. Get a minimal console only
> installation going, update/upgrade as appropriate. Then add a GUI.
> At that point, tasksel is your friend.

Oh I forgot to list the dvd driver the PC is an Acer Aspire 8400, yeah at 
least would be good if I can add more RAM


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: Very old hardware...

[0...@caiway.net]

On Fri, 03 Jul 2020 19:17:33 +0200
Davide Lombardo  wrote:

> Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> DRAM: 64 MB SDDR 
> GPU: RIVA TNT-2
> HARDISK: 10 GB
> FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
> MODEM 56K
> In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
> Do you think I can install something different than the already
> installed WIN98 system ?

You could try some of those old floppy distros:

https://linuxmuseum.freedombox.rocks/FloppyDistros/

I don't think they have an installer to harddisk

Re: Very old hardware...

[deloptes]

Davide Lombardo wrote:

> Maybe I can just setup this PC as a Tor's Relay

Perhaps you did not understand correctly. The old 386 architecture is not
likely to be supported by recent kernels. The power consumptioned to
processing power ratio is below reasonable value.
It is not likely it makes sense to use it in any meaningful way.

The thing is that those old PC had more pressious metals in them or you can
donate it to the museum.

As mentioned by Michael Stone a 35-50$ Rpi 3 or 4 will be much more
efficient. I would add any used or refurbished PC in that range too.

regards

Re: Very old hardware...

[Davide Lombardo]

On Friday, 3 July 2020 20:58:52 CEST Michael Stone wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 03, 2020 at 07:17:33PM +0200, Davide Lombardo wrote:
> >Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> >CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> >DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
> >GPU: RIVA TNT-2
> >HARDISK: 10 GB
> >FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
> >MODEM 56K
> >In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
> >Do you think I can install something different than the already installed
> >WIN98 system ?
> 
> If the goal is just to experiment then you could run an older version of
> debian. (I think there's not enough memory for the current install
> routine.) OpenBSD or NetBSD or a linux distribution oriented toward
> small systems would run. Nothing will give you a good experience with a
> GUI and web browser on that hardware. For practical purposes, you'd be
> better off with a $35 raspberry PI.

Maybe I can just setup this PC as a Tor's Relay 


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: Very old hardware...

[deloptes]

Michael Stone wrote:

> If the goal is just to experiment then you could run an older version of
> debian. (I think there's not enough memory for the current install
> routine.) OpenBSD or NetBSD or a linux distribution oriented toward
> small systems would run. Nothing will give you a good experience with a
> GUI and web browser on that hardware. For practical purposes, you'd be
> better off with a $35 raspberry PI.

I was also thinking of this. It is so old, that it is not worth the
electricity it consumes.

Re: Very old hardware...

[songbird]

David Christensen wrote:
> On 2020-07-03 11:08, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> On Friday 03 July 2020 13:17:33 Davide Lombardo wrote:
>> 
>>> Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
>
>> Donate it to the curbside pickup.
>
> +1
>
>
> On 2020-07-03 11:58, Michael Stone wrote:
> > For practical purposes, you'd be better off with a $35 raspberry PI.
>
> +1
>
>
>
> On 2020-07-03 12:30, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> > The ratio of power consumption to
> > computing power is like with an old 100 W light bulb.
>
> +1


  agreed with all those too.

  much easier to work with more memory and more recent
processor/graphics.

  give it to the recycler and move on.

  i finally gave up a closet full of old hardware and a
huge monitor that was taking up so much space on my desk
that weighed about 70lbs.  replaced it with a monitor i
can pick up with two fingers and it consumes a lot less
electricity.  for the amount of electricity you burn 
using older tech you might pay for the newer technology
in a few years just in electricity charges alone.

  i did reuse an old Dell PC case for this new hardware
but that's about all i could use.


  songbird

Re: Computer Museum (was Re: Very old hardware...)

[Richard Owlett]

On 07/03/2020 06:40 PM, Kenneth Parker wrote:

This is, actually something I would like to do.  Anyone know of good
Computer Museums in areas they've been in?  (I remember a good one, South
of San Francisco, but that's on the other side of the Country from North
Carolina).



I don't know of a computer museum but I can suggest possible contacts.

The first thing that came to mind was "The Antique Wireless Museum" near 
Rochester, N.Y. [https://antiquewireless.org/homepage/]
I visited a precursor of the museum as a teenager ~60 years ago. It 
obviously made an impression.


Also consider a local museum or historical society for guidance.

HTH

Re: Very old hardware...

[David Christensen]

On 2020-07-03 11:08, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Friday 03 July 2020 13:17:33 Davide Lombardo wrote:


Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:



Donate it to the curbside pickup.


+1


On 2020-07-03 11:58, Michael Stone wrote:
> For practical purposes, you'd be better off with a $35 raspberry PI.

+1



On 2020-07-03 12:30, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> The ratio of power consumption to
> computing power is like with an old 100 W light bulb.

+1


David

Re: Very old hardware...

[Kenneth Parker]

On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 1:49 PM Jude DaShiell  wrote:

> Debian with xfce or mate or cinnamon may install and run well.  I don't
> recommend gnome.
>

+1

Funny story:  A few years ago, I installed a Text-only Minimal Ubuntu
system and then made one of the worst single commands in my career:
"apt-get install gnome".  What made it so bad was that, based on the
sequence of previous commands, the fact that it was Ubuntu, and my Install
Options, I ended up with Gnome Files for every Locale in the World!  It
took a while to clean this up!


> On Fri, 3 Jul 2020, Davide Lombardo wrote:
>
> > Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 13:17:33
> > From: Davide Lombardo 
> > To: Debian-user List Debian 
> > Subject: Very old hardware...
> >
> > Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> > CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> > DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
> > GPU: RIVA TNT-2
> > HARDISK: 10 GB
> > FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
> > MODEM 56K
> > In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
> > Do you think I can install something different than the already installed
> > WIN98 system ?
>

Brings back memories.  That was the last one I could bring up, in command
mode, with the command "win" bringing up the Windows Infrastructure.  I
tried to do that with Windows ME and was never successful.

Suggestion:  Don't throw anything away:  I think there are YouTube Videos,
about running Linux on Floppy Disks.

Kenneth Parker

Computer Museum (was Re: Very old hardware...)

[Kenneth Parker]

This is, actually something I would like to do.  Anyone know of good
Computer Museums in areas they've been in?  (I remember a good one, South
of San Francisco, but that's on the other side of the Country from North
Carolina).

I have a couple that I REALLY want to make work, in a Museum Environment:
A G3 Apple iBook, with the last Dual Boot to Apple's OS-9 (with OS X Jaguar
on the other side.  Look THAT up!).  I also have an Apple G4 iMac "Desk
Lamp", where the Disk Drive gave out.  (And it had the Archive of my
Classical Music CD Collection).  To get, at least a *little* back on Topic,
I successfully booted an old Debian DVD on the iMac (which, by the way,
last ran OS X Panther).  Unfortunately, it had trouble with the Graphics.
But, with the knowledge from these last couple years, I'm sure I can find
Firmware and Drivers that could work.

Yes, in the olden days, I liked Apple.  Then, they dropped Power PC and I
was Livid!  (What's the best protection, from Windows Viruses?  How about a
totally different CPU Architecture, where the Virus can't get anywhere.

Anyway, I am, right now, experiencing why Debian is so much better for
Computer Experts than Ubuntu or, Especially Mint.  (The Mint Install only
works from its Live DVD, which I am running on XFCE, on a Lenovo Ideapad
320.  What could possibly go wrong?)  So, for anyone who is looking for
Debian-like Alternatives, I give Thumbs Down on Mint 20, but *do* have a
message in their Forum.

But back to the Computer Museum, anyone else experience those?

Thanks for being patient with me.

Kenneth Parker

On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 1:34 PM Davide Lombardo  wrote:

> Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
> GPU: RIVA TNT-2
> HARDISK: 10 GB
> FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
> MODEM 56K
> In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
> Do you think I can install something different than the already installed
> WIN98 system ?

Re: Very old hardware...

[Charles Curley]

On Fri, 03 Jul 2020 19:17:33 +0200
Davide Lombardo  wrote:

> Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;

It might be useful to identify the manufacturer of the computer or
motherboard, and search the Internet for documentation.

You may want to add a network card and as much memory as you can stuff
into it.

For installing, maybe a (temporary?) CD-ROM drive.

I would use the netboot installation disk. Get a minimal console only
installation going, update/upgrade as appropriate. Then add a GUI.
At that point, tasksel is your friend.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: Very old hardware...

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

economically and ecologically it makes few sense to let old computers do
real work, even if they are for free. The ratio of power consumption to
computing power is like with an old 100 W light bulb.

But as exhibition object 'tis ok. :))

Davide Lombardo wrote:
> > CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> > DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
> > Lire

Ok. That would be year 2001 ?

Debian 2.2 "Potato" was contemporary. 3 CD images for "i386" are at
  https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/older-contrib/2.2/
I guess that CD 1 would suffice to get a usable system.

Or 3.0 "Woody" from 2002, as the machine was high-end at that time.
The archive has an all-in-one DVD image
  
https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/3.0_r6/i386/iso-dvd/debian-30r6-dvd-i386-binary-1.iso
If you can get an old Parallel-ATA DVD drive, then it should work even
with an IDE controller from 2001, if that controller is good for tapes
(known as EIDE/ATAPI).
Else there are 7 CD images
  https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/3.0_r6/i386/iso-cd/
As window manager i advertise fvwm2, freshly introduced in Woody.
(On Potato it was probably the predecessor fvwm. Good enough.)


Georgi Naplatanov wrote:
> I think that for desktop environment you'll need 1GB RAM at least.

I wonder what Tiny Core Linux offers with "48 MB of RAM ... or less".
  http://www.tinycorelinux.net/intro.html
Damn Small Linux states to run on 16 MB.
  http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/


Gene Heskett wrote:
> Donate it to the curbside pickup.

When the Big Entropy Re-Collector reboots you in the year 1,000,000 AD
you will be accused of cruelty to hardware. Have a good excuse ready.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Very old hardware...

[Michael Stone]

On Fri, Jul 03, 2020 at 07:17:33PM +0200, Davide Lombardo wrote:

Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
GPU: RIVA TNT-2
HARDISK: 10 GB
FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
MODEM 56K
In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
Do you think I can install something different than the already installed
WIN98 system ?


If the goal is just to experiment then you could run an older version of 
debian. (I think there's not enough memory for the current install 
routine.) OpenBSD or NetBSD or a linux distribution oriented toward 
small systems would run. Nothing will give you a good experience with a 
GUI and web browser on that hardware. For practical purposes, you'd be 
better off with a $35 raspberry PI.

Re: Very old hardware...

[Georgi Naplatanov]

On 7/3/20 8:17 PM, Davide Lombardo wrote:
> Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> DRAM: 64 MB SDDR 
> GPU: RIVA TNT-2
> HARDISK: 10 GB
> FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
> MODEM 56K
> In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
> Do you think I can install something different than the already installed 
> WIN98 system ?

Hi,

I'm not sure what is minimum RAM requirement for Debian Linux kernel but
I think that for desktop environment you'll need 1GB RAM at least.

Kind regards
Georgi

Re: Very old hardware...

[Christian Groessler]

3000 Lire?

Did you mean 3.000,000 Lire?

regards,
chris


On 2020-07-03 19:17, Davide Lombardo wrote:

Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
GPU: RIVA TNT-2
HARDISK: 10 GB
FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
MODEM 56K
In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
Do you think I can install something different than the already installed
WIN98 system ?

Re: Very old hardware...

[ghe2001]

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Hash: SHA256



‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Friday, July 3, 2020 12:08 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Friday 03 July 2020 13:17:33 Davide Lombardo wrote:
>
> > Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> > CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> > DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
> > GPU: RIVA TNT-2
> > HARDISK: 10 GB
> > FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
> > MODEM 56K
> > In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
> > Do you think I can install something different than the already
> > installed WIN98 system ?
>
> There are bugs, particularly in the (IIRC)halt instruction that are not
> fixable by microcode that Pentium is too old and cannot be patched.

I don't understand everything you guys are talking about. But if you're looking 
for a Debian, my old Pentium III laptop was fat 'n happy with Jessie.

I don't think it had anything as massive as a 10G disk, though :-)

--
Glenn English



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Re: Very old hardware...

[Hans]

Am Freitag, 3. Juli 2020, 19:17:33 CEST schrieb Davide Lombardo:
Yeah, try debian/i386 with LXDE. It will run as fast as WindowsXP with a 2GHz 
singlecore cpu.

Graphics speed will run fast enough for office applications like libreoffice, 
but not for games. Oh, does it run Doom? Of course! 

OpenGl-games might run, but the Riva TNT-2 is hardware accelerated, but 
compared to modern cards --slow!

Problems might come in hardware, for example sound, but alsa should do it. If 
it runs pulseaudio? Do not know.

I would give it a try. As I said above, LXDE would be my choice for a window 
manager (LXQT or RazorQT might also run well). These are small and fast.

Running Gnome or Plasma5 will be pita.

All other application should also be small. What do you need? A browser? Try 
firefox (yes, it migh be slow), but you can also try chromium. More small 
browser is Dillo.

Mailing? You can try Thunderbird, but I would prefer Clawsmail, much faster.

Office? Try Libreoffice, if this is too slow, try Abiword. This is running 
well and fast on my Sharp Zaurus (800MHz) and is Microsoft and Libreoffice 
compatible.

Multimedia? Try VLC, might run well. If this is too slow, smplayer will be a 
good choice. It is small and fast.


Such system is well for fast network analysis, so you can also make a mesure 
machine of, just with console, using nmap, dig, traceroute and all the other 
things, you need for analysis. Even metasploit run well on this as most 
network tools, as they often need very few processing power.

And well, if all those does not work for you, try Damnsmalllinux, which is an 
old, but very fast linux running on a 48MB Machine with a Pentium 3 as fast as 
a WindowsXP machine on a 1,8GHz cpu with 2 GB RAM.

But do not kick this system away as long as it can be usefull.

And what about making a firewall of it or a logserver? 

Have fun!

Best 

Hans


> Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
> GPU: RIVA TNT-2
> HARDISK: 10 GB
> FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
> MODEM 56K
> In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
> Do you think I can install something different than the already installed
> WIN98 system ?



signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: Very old hardware...

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 03 July 2020 13:17:33 Davide Lombardo wrote:

> Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
> GPU: RIVA TNT-2
> HARDISK: 10 GB
> FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
> MODEM 56K
> In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
> Do you think I can install something different than the already
> installed WIN98 system ?

There are bugs, particularly in the (IIRC)halt instruction that are not 
fixable by microcode that Pentium is too old and cannot be patched.

And that is not enough memory to run anything newer than the W98 it has. 
Donate it to the curbside pickup.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: Very old hardware...

[Jude DaShiell]

Debian with xfce or mate or cinnamon may install and run well.  I don't
recommend gnome.
On Fri, 3 Jul 2020, Davide Lombardo wrote:

> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 13:17:33
> From: Davide Lombardo 
> To: Debian-user List Debian 
> Subject: Very old hardware...
>
> Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
> GPU: RIVA TNT-2
> HARDISK: 10 GB
> FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
> MODEM 56K
> In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
> Do you think I can install something different than the already installed
> WIN98 system ?

-- 

Very old hardware...

[Davide Lombardo]

Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
DRAM: 64 MB SDDR 
GPU: RIVA TNT-2
HARDISK: 10 GB
FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
MODEM 56K
In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
Do you think I can install something different than the already installed 
WIN98 system ?

signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.