Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Michael Biebl]

Am 17.03.2010 09:05, schrieb Mark Allums:
> Gnash is a noble effort.  Gnash sucks.  I want choice, and my choice is 
> Adobe Flash.  Installing Gnash screws up Flash.  Right now, I can refuse 
> to update GNOME on Squeeze any further, but the time will come when that 
> will not be a viable option.  Why does GNOME require Gnash?  And what 
> can I do to put a stop to it?
> 
> 
http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/pkg-gnome/desktop/unstable/meta-gnome2/debian/?rev=23128&sc=1

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Re: [semi-SOLVED] Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Celejar]

On Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:37:38 +0100
Vincent Lefevre  wrote:

> On 2010-03-20 21:57:24 -0400, Celejar wrote:
> > Well, a quick search seems to indicate that some DEs already have this,
> > e.g. Gnome, with its /etc/gnome/defaults.lst.  I guess you want
> > something that's DE independent.
> 
> But even under GNOME, one may use non-GNOME applications (e.g. Mutt),
> which won't take this file into account (BTW, mailcap is a more
> powerful method).

Thanks.  I'll have to look into this stuff more.

Celejar
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Re: [semi-SOLVED] Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2010-03-20 21:57:24 -0400, Celejar wrote:
> Well, a quick search seems to indicate that some DEs already have this,
> e.g. Gnome, with its /etc/gnome/defaults.lst.  I guess you want
> something that's DE independent.

But even under GNOME, one may use non-GNOME applications (e.g. Mutt),
which won't take this file into account (BTW, mailcap is a more
powerful method).

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Re: [semi-SOLVED] Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Freeman]

On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 02:15:40PM +0100, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> On 2010-03-18 05:13:33 -0500, Mark Allums wrote:
> > My initial difficulties are mitigated a bit.  Some web sites work;
> > some don't.  I think that both Gnash and Flash can be installed at
> > the same time.  Which is actually running, I am not competent enough
> > to know.
> 
> update-alternatives --display flash-mozilla.so
> update-alternatives --config flash-mozilla.so
> 

That gives an option for the swf plugin too, if installed. galternatives is
a graphic rendition that sorts things nicely.

Why don't more users just avoid installing the gnome meta packages?  I
have avoided them since etch.  

http://packages.debian.org/source/squeeze/meta-gnome2

It doesn't seem like much to pick through the gnome selection, installing
preferred *non*meta packages.  At least not when compared to the long term
of package management.

I forget which are the kickers to get a fully working desktop. I think
gnome-sessions for one.
 
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Re: [semi-SOLVED] Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Celejar]

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 21:19:54 -0500
Ron Johnson  wrote:

> On 2010-03-20 21:06, Andrew Winnenberg wrote:
> > On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 9:57 PM, Celejar  wrote:
> >> On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:24:11 -0500
> >> Ron Johnson  wrote:
> >>
> >> ...
> >>
> >>> For example, which apps to use open jpeg files, PDF files, ODF, DOC,
> >>> XLS, etc, whether I'm in Thunar, Thunderbird, Evolution, Mutt,
> >>> gentoo or any of a dozen other file managers.
> >>>
> >>> There should be a freedesktop standard for file associations.
> >> I guess you're right.  It would be nice to be able to set that sort of
> >> thing once, and then have all applications respect the choice, at least
> >> by default.
> >>
> >> Well, a quick search seems to indicate that some DEs already have this,
> >> e.g. Gnome, with its /etc/gnome/defaults.lst.  I guess you want
> >> something that's DE independent.
> >>
> >> Celejar
> > 
> > 
> > I may be mistaken, but isn't that functionality provided by 
> > shared-mime-info?
> > 
> 
> But isn't it system-wide?

Yes, as the spec says:

"The MIME database does NOT store user preferences (such as a user's
preferred application for handling files of a particular type). It may
be used to store static information, such as that files of a certain
type may be viewed with a particular application."

Celejar
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Re: [semi-SOLVED] Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Ron Johnson]

On 2010-03-20 21:06, Andrew Winnenberg wrote:

On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 9:57 PM, Celejar  wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:24:11 -0500
Ron Johnson  wrote:

...


For example, which apps to use open jpeg files, PDF files, ODF, DOC,
XLS, etc, whether I'm in Thunar, Thunderbird, Evolution, Mutt,
gentoo or any of a dozen other file managers.

There should be a freedesktop standard for file associations.

I guess you're right.  It would be nice to be able to set that sort of
thing once, and then have all applications respect the choice, at least
by default.

Well, a quick search seems to indicate that some DEs already have this,
e.g. Gnome, with its /etc/gnome/defaults.lst.  I guess you want
something that's DE independent.

Celejar



I may be mistaken, but isn't that functionality provided by shared-mime-info?



But isn't it system-wide?

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Re: [semi-SOLVED] Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Andrew Winnenberg]

On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 9:57 PM, Celejar  wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:24:11 -0500
> Ron Johnson  wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> For example, which apps to use open jpeg files, PDF files, ODF, DOC,
>> XLS, etc, whether I'm in Thunar, Thunderbird, Evolution, Mutt,
>> gentoo or any of a dozen other file managers.
>>
>> There should be a freedesktop standard for file associations.
>
> I guess you're right.  It would be nice to be able to set that sort of
> thing once, and then have all applications respect the choice, at least
> by default.
>
> Well, a quick search seems to indicate that some DEs already have this,
> e.g. Gnome, with its /etc/gnome/defaults.lst.  I guess you want
> something that's DE independent.
>
> Celejar


I may be mistaken, but isn't that functionality provided by shared-mime-info?

--Drew


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Re: [semi-SOLVED] Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Celejar]

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:24:11 -0500
Ron Johnson  wrote:

...

> For example, which apps to use open jpeg files, PDF files, ODF, DOC, 
> XLS, etc, whether I'm in Thunar, Thunderbird, Evolution, Mutt, 
> gentoo or any of a dozen other file managers.
> 
> There should be a freedesktop standard for file associations.

I guess you're right.  It would be nice to be able to set that sort of
thing once, and then have all applications respect the choice, at least
by default.

Well, a quick search seems to indicate that some DEs already have this,
e.g. Gnome, with its /etc/gnome/defaults.lst.  I guess you want
something that's DE independent.

Celejar
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Re: [semi-SOLVED] Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Ron Johnson]

On 2010-03-19 14:20, Celejar wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 06:39:49 -0500
Ron Johnson  wrote:

...

XFce only allows the user to choose MUA or browser.  Win XP allows 
the user to make all sorts of user-specific application choices.


A lot of this stuff is really probably better handled at the individual
application level.  For example, a file manager can be configured to
open files using particular applications, whether you're using mc or
thunar under xfce.  What sorts of 'user-specific application choices'
do you have in mind that shouldn't be handled this way, but by the DE?



For example, which apps to use open jpeg files, PDF files, ODF, DOC, 
XLS, etc, whether I'm in Thunar, Thunderbird, Evolution, Mutt, 
gentoo or any of a dozen other file managers.


There should be a freedesktop standard for file associations.

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Re: [semi-SOLVED] Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Celejar]

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 06:39:49 -0500
Ron Johnson  wrote:

...

> XFce only allows the user to choose MUA or browser.  Win XP allows 
> the user to make all sorts of user-specific application choices.

A lot of this stuff is really probably better handled at the individual
application level.  For example, a file manager can be configured to
open files using particular applications, whether you're using mc or
thunar under xfce.  What sorts of 'user-specific application choices'
do you have in mind that shouldn't be handled this way, but by the DE?

Celejar
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Re: [semi-SOLVED] Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Camaleón]

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 00:22:51 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:

>>> My initial difficulties are mitigated a bit.  Some web sites work;
>>> some don't.  I think that both Gnash and Flash can be installed at the
>>> same time.  Which is actually running, I am not competent enough to
>>> know.
> 
>> update-alternatives --display flash-mozilla.so update-alternatives
>> --config flash-mozilla.so
> 
> The choice should really be made at the level of individual users rther
> than system-wide.

Not sure if this would help anyone as I've not followed so much the 
thread.

Adobe Flash Player plugin can be installed at "per user level" under 
"~/.mozilla/plugins" folder (at least for Iceweasel). That way it takes 
preference over the others flash packages installed system wide, IIRC.

Greetings,

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Re: [semi-SOLVED] Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Ron Johnson]

On 2010-03-19 06:31, Andrei Popescu wrote:

On Fri,19.Mar.10, 11:53:28, Vincent Lefevre wrote:

On 2010-03-19 00:22:51 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:

update-alternatives --display flash-mozilla.so
update-alternatives --config flash-mozilla.so

The choice should really be made at the level of individual users rther
than system-wide.

Yes, I completely agree. BTW, this is not specific to Flash. There
should be user-level alternatives (in addition to system-wide).


Some of that is already done by desktop environments for the obvious 
applications (web broser, mail client...), but I guess at least one of 
those DE projects would not include this functionality for such things 
as browser plugins "because it would be too complicated for the user". 


Do I need to name the DE I'm thinking off? ;)



XFce only allows the user to choose MUA or browser.  Win XP allows 
the user to make all sorts of user-specific application choices.


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Re: [semi-SOLVED] Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Andrei Popescu]

On Fri,19.Mar.10, 11:53:28, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
> On 2010-03-19 00:22:51 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > > update-alternatives --display flash-mozilla.so
> > > update-alternatives --config flash-mozilla.so
> > 
> > The choice should really be made at the level of individual users rther
> > than system-wide.
> 
> Yes, I completely agree. BTW, this is not specific to Flash. There
> should be user-level alternatives (in addition to system-wide).

Some of that is already done by desktop environments for the obvious 
applications (web broser, mail client...), but I guess at least one of 
those DE projects would not include this functionality for such things 
as browser plugins "because it would be too complicated for the user". 

Do I need to name the DE I'm thinking off? ;)

Regards,
Andrei
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Re: [semi-SOLVED] Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Ron Johnson]

On 2010-03-19 05:53, Vincent Lefevre wrote:

On 2010-03-19 00:22:51 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:

update-alternatives --display flash-mozilla.so
update-alternatives --config flash-mozilla.so

The choice should really be made at the level of individual users rther
than system-wide.


Yes, I completely agree. BTW, this is not specific to Flash. There
should be user-level alternatives (in addition to system-wide).



I bet that symlinks plus ~/.mozilla/plugins would (hackish though it 
may be) solve your problem.


A bash (with dialog or zenity hooks) script in /usr/local/bin could 
do all the linking for your non-geek users.


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Re: [semi-SOLVED] Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2010-03-19 00:22:51 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > update-alternatives --display flash-mozilla.so
> > update-alternatives --config flash-mozilla.so
> 
> The choice should really be made at the level of individual users rther
> than system-wide.

Yes, I completely agree. BTW, this is not specific to Flash. There
should be user-level alternatives (in addition to system-wide).

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Re: [semi-SOLVED] Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Stefan Monnier]

>> My initial difficulties are mitigated a bit.  Some web sites work;
>> some don't.  I think that both Gnash and Flash can be installed at
>> the same time.  Which is actually running, I am not competent enough
>> to know.

> update-alternatives --display flash-mozilla.so
> update-alternatives --config flash-mozilla.so

The choice should really be made at the level of individual users rther
than system-wide.


Stefan


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Re: [SOLVED] Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Mark Allums]

On 3/18/2010 11:39 AM, Mark Allums wrote:

The order of installation seems to matter. Installing Gnash, and then
(re-)installing Flash caused most embedded videos to play properly. I
have not tried Flash-based UIs, like Flash games.


To put the nail in the coffin of this, after a lot of experimenting,
visiting numerous web sites with Flash, Gnash just isn't going to cut
it, so I:

1. Purged flash-plugin-nonfree
2. (Somehow) removed the gnome metapackage without having half my
installed packages go with it
3. Removed gnash and mozilla-plugin-gnash (but left gnash-common in place)
4. Installed flash-plugin-nonfree

Now everything works. Except Plants vs. Zombies. Bejeweled 2 works,
though. :)


Ha!  I was wrong.  Plants vs. Zombies *does* work.  I just didn't give 
it time enough to load.  So, silly cartoony web-based games work again!


MAA



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Re: [SOLVED] Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Mark Allums]

On 3/18/2010 5:13 AM, Mark Allums wrote:

On 3/17/2010 10:40 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote:

Installing Gnash screws up Flash.


That is the core of the problem that needs to be fixed.
There's no reason the two shouldn't be able to coexist peacefully so
that each user on the machine can choose which flash player she wants
to use.


My initial difficulties are mitigated a bit. Some web sites work; some
don't. I think that both Gnash and Flash can be installed at the same
time. Which is actually running, I am not competent enough to know.

The order of installation seems to matter. Installing Gnash, and then
(re-)installing Flash caused most embedded videos to play properly. I
have not tried Flash-based UIs, like Flash games.



To put the nail in the coffin of this, after a lot of experimenting, 
visiting numerous web sites with Flash, Gnash just isn't going to cut 
it, so I:


1. Purged flash-plugin-nonfree
2. (Somehow) removed the gnome metapackage without having half my 
installed packages go with it

3. Removed gnash and mozilla-plugin-gnash (but left gnash-common in place)
4. Installed flash-plugin-nonfree


Now everything works.  Except Plants vs. Zombies.  Bejeweled 2 works, 
though.  :)



MAA



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Re: [semi-SOLVED] Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Mark Allums]

On 3/18/2010 8:15 AM, Vincent Lefevre wrote:

On 2010-03-18 05:13:33 -0500, Mark Allums wrote:

My initial difficulties are mitigated a bit.  Some web sites work;
some don't.  I think that both Gnash and Flash can be installed at
the same time.  Which is actually running, I am not competent enough
to know.


update-alternatives --display flash-mozilla.so
update-alternatives --config flash-mozilla.so



Gotcha.  I knew that, but I am *so very* scatterbrained.

MAA



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Re: [semi-SOLVED] Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2010-03-18 05:13:33 -0500, Mark Allums wrote:
> My initial difficulties are mitigated a bit.  Some web sites work;
> some don't.  I think that both Gnash and Flash can be installed at
> the same time.  Which is actually running, I am not competent enough
> to know.

update-alternatives --display flash-mozilla.so
update-alternatives --config flash-mozilla.so

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Re: [semi-SOLVED] Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Mark Allums]

On 3/18/2010 5:13 AM, Mark Allums wrote:

On 3/17/2010 10:40 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote:

Installing Gnash screws up Flash.


That is the core of the problem that needs to be fixed.
There's no reason the two shouldn't be able to coexist peacefully so
that each user on the machine can choose which flash player she wants
to use.


My initial difficulties are mitigated a bit. Some web sites work; some
don't. I think that both Gnash and Flash can be installed at the same
time. Which is actually running, I am not competent enough to know.

The order of installation seems to matter. Installing Gnash, and then
(re-)installing Flash caused most embedded videos to play properly. I
have not tried Flash-based UIs, like Flash games.

MAA



Furthermore, I have uninstalled Flash and reinstalled Gnash, and under 
Iceweasel and Chrome, Youtube videos play.  Other sites' videos don't, 
but at this point, I'm blaming those on sites failing to support Chrome 
or Iceweasel on Linux.  Until further testing proves otherwise.  Flash 
ads work pretty well, alas.


Plants vs. Zombies does not work under Chrome/Gnash. ( 
http://www.popcap.com/games/free/ ).


So it looks like a mountain out of a molehill here, if your only goal is 
video.


MAA







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[semi-SOLVED] Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Mark Allums]

On 3/17/2010 10:40 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote:

Installing Gnash screws up Flash.


That is the core of the problem that needs to be fixed.
There's no reason the two shouldn't be able to coexist peacefully so
that each user on the machine can choose which flash player she wants
to use.


My initial difficulties are mitigated a bit.  Some web sites work; some 
don't.  I think that both Gnash and Flash can be installed at the same 
time.  Which is actually running, I am not competent enough to know.


The order of installation seems to matter.  Installing Gnash, and then 
(re-)installing Flash caused most embedded videos to play properly.  I 
have not tried Flash-based UIs, like Flash games.


MAA



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Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Mark Allums]

On 3/17/2010 2:08 PM, Mike Castle wrote:

On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 1:05 AM, Mark Allums  wrote:

Gnash is a noble effort.  Gnash sucks.  I want choice, and my choice is
Adobe Flash.  Installing Gnash screws up Flash.  Right now, I can refuse to
update GNOME on Squeeze any further, but the time will come when that will
not be a viable option.  Why does GNOME require Gnash?  And what can I do to
put a stop to it?


I think this is why we have the whole testing process.



I kind of regretted writing that.  I want Gnash to succeed.  I would 
prefer a free and open choice, and I certainly hate Flash.  I just want 
things to work.


Mark Allums


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Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Mike Castle]

On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 1:05 AM, Mark Allums  wrote:
> Gnash is a noble effort.  Gnash sucks.  I want choice, and my choice is
> Adobe Flash.  Installing Gnash screws up Flash.  Right now, I can refuse to
> update GNOME on Squeeze any further, but the time will come when that will
> not be a viable option.  Why does GNOME require Gnash?  And what can I do to
> put a stop to it?

I think this is why we have the whole testing process.

Not all that long ago, one of my almost-daily upgrades pulled in a
whole bunch of dependencies that I really didn't want (details don't
matter).  But, I thought, eh, oh well.  Such is life.

A few days later, all of those packages that I didn't want were marked
as no longer being depended upon, so I was able to remove them.  Yay!
Someone fixed an errant dependency.

I hope that, as the fall out from this thread, something similar will
work out here.

Something along the lines, of I guess, that the Adobe based flash
package will be modified to say 'Provides: flash-plugin', as will
Gnash.  Then appropriate packages will say they depend on flash-plugin
rather than gnash explicitly.

The whole conflicts between gnash/adobe flash issue that someone else
brought up could be worked out later.

Would it have been better if things went along the Provides route
first?  Probably, but maybe there were other issues that prevented
that from happening, and these suggestions are already planned, just
not yet implemented.

Such is the life of living on the edge sometimes.

mrc


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Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Liam O'Toole]

On 2010-03-17, Mark Allums  wrote:
>
>
> Current Squeeze.
>
>
> eog
> gedit
> gnome-applets
> gnome-control-center
> gnome-icon-theme
> gnome-menus
> gnome-panel
> gnome-power-manager
> gnome-session
> gnome-settings-daemon
> gnome-terminal
> gvfs
> metacity
> mutter
> nautilus
> yelp
>
> suggests gnome-desktop-environment
>
> There are several things.  One is gnome-desktop-environment. 
> Suggestions and recommendations get added automatically, if I don't 
> watch out.  Can't figure out why.
>
> GDE depends on gnome-core.  Gnome depends on GDE.  None of the three 
> currently installed depends on gnash according to apt-cache, but 
> updating any of the three or gnome-accessibility tries to install gnash. 
>   Go figure.
>

Try apt-cache with the '--recurse' option (an example is in Ron's post).
It will tell you if gnash is lurking somewhere deep down in the
dependency tree.

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Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Stefan Monnier]

> Installing Gnash screws up Flash.

That is the core of the problem that needs to be fixed.
There's no reason the two shouldn't be able to coexist peacefully so
that each user on the machine can choose which flash player she wants
to use.


Stefan


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Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Mark Allums]

On 3/17/2010 7:51 AM, Johan Grönqvist wrote:

I'm surprised to hear that gnome-core requires gnash. It's certainly not
the case on Lenny:



I it was introduced into squeeze yesterday (source package meta-gnome2
2.28+6 transitioned to squeeze on 2010-03-16). The reason seems to be
that swfdec was removed. The changelog[0] for meta-gnome2 says (among
other things):


* Drop swfdec-gnome.
* Make gnome depend on mozilla-plugin-gnash so that there’s at least
something for Flash websites.




[0]:




/ johan




Thanks.

I question the rationale.  Many people would prefer Flash, annoying as 
it is.  I hate Flash, but have to have it for specific reasons.  (Yes, 
I'm aware that it's non-free.  I'd rather have nothing, than have Gnash. 
 Sorry, Gnash devs, but that's the sad truth.)






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Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Mark Allums]

On 3/17/2010 6:48 AM, Liam O'Toole wrote:

On 2010-03-17, Mark Allums  wrote:

On 3/17/2010 4:42 AM, Liam O'Toole wrote:

On 2010-03-17, Mark Allums   wrote:

Why does GNOME require Gnash?  And what can I do to put a stop to it?


Look at the following metapackages, their descriptions and dependencies:

  gnome
  gnome-desktop-environment
  gnome-core

Choose the one which best suits your purposes and install it.



Oddly, for some reason, they all require Gnash.  I'm rooting for Gnash,
I hope Gnash works out in the end, and with HTML5 video tag, maybe it
will, but on my system, in Sqeeze, all three packages are installed,
they all require each other, and they all require Gnash, which at the
moment, is not my first choice.  At all.



I'm surprised to hear that gnome-core requires gnash. It's certainly not
the case on Lenny:

$ apt-cache depends gnome-core
gnome-core
   Depends: gnome-control-center
   Depends: eog
   Depends: gedit
   Depends: gnome-applets
   Depends: gnome-icon-theme
   Depends: gnome-menus
   Depends: gnome-panel
   Depends: gnome-session
   Depends: gnome-settings-daemon
   Depends: gnome-terminal
  |Depends: metacity
   Depends: compiz-gnome
   Depends: nautilus
  |Depends: rarian-compat
   Depends: scrollkeeper
 rarian-compat
   Depends: yelp
   Suggests: gnome-desktop-environment

Which release are you running?




Current Squeeze.


eog
gedit
gnome-applets
gnome-control-center
gnome-icon-theme
gnome-menus
gnome-panel
gnome-power-manager
gnome-session
gnome-settings-daemon
gnome-terminal
gvfs
metacity
mutter
nautilus
yelp

suggests gnome-desktop-environment

There are several things.  One is gnome-desktop-environment. 
Suggestions and recommendations get added automatically, if I don't 
watch out.  Can't figure out why.


GDE depends on gnome-core.  Gnome depends on GDE.  None of the three 
currently installed depends on gnash according to apt-cache, but 
updating any of the three or gnome-accessibility tries to install gnash. 
 Go figure.








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Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Ron Johnson]

On 2010-03-17 08:31, Liam O'Toole wrote:

On 2010-03-17, Ron Johnson  wrote:

[snip]


Mark could always just remove gnome.  It's just a metapackage.



Yes again. But depending on how the gnome metapackage was installed,
removing it can also remove its dependents. Installing one of the lesser
metapackages beforehand would reduce the impact of that.



That's the difference between The One True APT Front End and that 
Evil Abomination, Aptitude.


apt-get just says, "I think these packages can be removed" but 
doesn't scare the crud out of you by actually being an errant "Y" 
away from doing it.


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Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Liam O'Toole]

On 2010-03-17, Johan Grönqvist  wrote:
> Liam O'Toole skrev:
>> On 2010-03-17, Johan Grönqvist  wrote:
 I'm surprised to hear that gnome-core requires gnash. It's certainly not
 the case on Lenny:
>>>
>>> I it was introduced into squeeze yesterday (source package meta-gnome2 
>>> 2.28+6 transitioned to squeeze on 2010-03-16). The reason seems to be 
>>> that swfdec was removed. The changelog[0] for meta-gnome2 says (among 
>>> other things):
>>>
>>>
>>>* Drop swfdec-gnome.
>>>* Make gnome depend on mozilla-plugin-gnash so that there’s at least
>>>  something for Flash websites.
>>>
>> 
>> The changelog appears to refer to the gnome metapackage rather than
>> gnome-core.
>> 
>
> The changelog refers to meta-gnome2, which is a source package from 
> which the three binary packages gnome, gnome-core and 
> gnome-desktop-environment (and some more packages) are built.

I was speaking specifically about this part: "Make gnome depend on
mozilla-plugin-gnash". I interpret that to mean the gnome metapackage
rather than the other, lesser, ones.

>
> Thus, the changelog holds for the source package, and I do not know how 
> to see what change holds for which binary package. I do not even know if 
> binary packages can have changelogs separate form their source packages.

As far as I can tell, no.

>
> The changelog quote was intended to answer the question why things are 
> different in squeeze than in lenny.

Thanks for the information.

>
> Looking at the binary packages, I agree that the packages gnome-core and 
> gnome-desktop environment do not depend on gnash, whereas gnome does 
> (via the mozilla plugin).

That is consistent with my remarks above.

-- 
Liam O'Toole
Birmingham, United Kingdom



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Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Johan Grönqvist]

Liam O'Toole skrev:

On 2010-03-17, Johan Grönqvist  wrote:

I'm surprised to hear that gnome-core requires gnash. It's certainly not
the case on Lenny:


I it was introduced into squeeze yesterday (source package meta-gnome2 
2.28+6 transitioned to squeeze on 2010-03-16). The reason seems to be 
that swfdec was removed. The changelog[0] for meta-gnome2 says (among 
other things):



   * Drop swfdec-gnome.
   * Make gnome depend on mozilla-plugin-gnash so that there’s at least
 something for Flash websites.



The changelog appears to refer to the gnome metapackage rather than
gnome-core.



The changelog refers to meta-gnome2, which is a source package from 
which the three binary packages gnome, gnome-core and 
gnome-desktop-environment (and some more packages) are built.


Thus, the changelog holds for the source package, and I do not know how 
to see what change holds for which binary package. I do not even know if 
binary packages can have changelogs separate form their source packages.


The changelog quote was intended to answer the question why things are 
different in squeeze than in lenny.


Looking at the binary packages, I agree that the packages gnome-core and 
gnome-desktop environment do not depend on gnash, whereas gnome does 
(via the mozilla plugin).


/ johan


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Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Liam O'Toole]

On 2010-03-17, Ron Johnson  wrote:
> On 2010-03-17 06:48, Liam O'Toole wrote:
>> I'm surprised to hear that gnome-core requires gnash. It's certainly not
>> the case on Lenny:
>> 
>> $ apt-cache depends gnome-core
>> gnome-core
>>   Depends: gnome-control-center
>>   Depends: eog
>>   Depends: gedit
>>   Depends: gnome-applets
>>   Depends: gnome-icon-theme
>>   Depends: gnome-menus
>>   Depends: gnome-panel
>>   Depends: gnome-session
>>   Depends: gnome-settings-daemon
>>   Depends: gnome-terminal
>>  |Depends: metacity
>>   Depends: compiz-gnome
>>   Depends: nautilus
>>  |Depends: rarian-compat
>>   Depends: scrollkeeper
>> rarian-compat
>>   Depends: yelp
>>   Suggests: gnome-desktop-environment
>> 
>> Which release are you running?
>> 
>
> $ apt-cache --recurse depends gnome | \
> grep -B30 '  Depends: mozilla-plugin-gnash'
> gnome
>Depends: gnome-desktop-environment
>  |Depends: gdm-themes
> [snip]
>Depends: gnote
>Depends: mozilla-plugin-gnash
>

Yes, gnome depends on gnash, but gnome-core does not.

>
> Package gnome depends on mozilla-plugin-gnash which depends on gnash.
>
> Mark could always just remove gnome.  It's just a metapackage.
>

Yes again. But depending on how the gnome metapackage was installed,
removing it can also remove its dependents. Installing one of the lesser
metapackages beforehand would reduce the impact of that.

-- 
Liam O'Toole
Birmingham, United Kingdom



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Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Liam O'Toole]

On 2010-03-17, Johan Grönqvist  wrote:
>> I'm surprised to hear that gnome-core requires gnash. It's certainly not
>> the case on Lenny:
>
>
> I it was introduced into squeeze yesterday (source package meta-gnome2 
> 2.28+6 transitioned to squeeze on 2010-03-16). The reason seems to be 
> that swfdec was removed. The changelog[0] for meta-gnome2 says (among 
> other things):
>
>
>* Drop swfdec-gnome.
>* Make gnome depend on mozilla-plugin-gnash so that there’s at least
>  something for Flash websites.
>

The changelog appears to refer to the gnome metapackage rather than
gnome-core.

-- 
Liam O'Toole
Birmingham, United Kingdom



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Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Johan Grönqvist]

I'm surprised to hear that gnome-core requires gnash. It's certainly not
the case on Lenny:



I it was introduced into squeeze yesterday (source package meta-gnome2 
2.28+6 transitioned to squeeze on 2010-03-16). The reason seems to be 
that swfdec was removed. The changelog[0] for meta-gnome2 says (among 
other things):



  * Drop swfdec-gnome.
  * Make gnome depend on mozilla-plugin-gnash so that there’s at least
something for Flash websites.




[0]: 




/ johan


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Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Ron Johnson]

On 2010-03-17 06:48, Liam O'Toole wrote:

On 2010-03-17, Mark Allums  wrote:

On 3/17/2010 4:42 AM, Liam O'Toole wrote:

On 2010-03-17, Mark Allums  wrote:

Why does GNOME require Gnash?  And what can I do to put a stop to it?

Look at the following metapackages, their descriptions and dependencies:

 gnome
 gnome-desktop-environment
 gnome-core

Choose the one which best suits your purposes and install it.


Oddly, for some reason, they all require Gnash.  I'm rooting for Gnash, 
I hope Gnash works out in the end, and with HTML5 video tag, maybe it 
will, but on my system, in Sqeeze, all three packages are installed, 
they all require each other, and they all require Gnash, which at the 
moment, is not my first choice.  At all.




I'm surprised to hear that gnome-core requires gnash. It's certainly not
the case on Lenny:

$ apt-cache depends gnome-core
gnome-core
  Depends: gnome-control-center
  Depends: eog
  Depends: gedit
  Depends: gnome-applets
  Depends: gnome-icon-theme
  Depends: gnome-menus
  Depends: gnome-panel
  Depends: gnome-session
  Depends: gnome-settings-daemon
  Depends: gnome-terminal
 |Depends: metacity
  Depends: compiz-gnome
  Depends: nautilus
 |Depends: rarian-compat
  Depends: scrollkeeper
rarian-compat
  Depends: yelp
  Suggests: gnome-desktop-environment

Which release are you running?



$ apt-cache --recurse depends gnome | \
   grep -B30 '  Depends: mozilla-plugin-gnash'
gnome
  Depends: gnome-desktop-environment
 |Depends: gdm-themes
[snip]
  Depends: gnote
  Depends: mozilla-plugin-gnash


Package gnome depends on mozilla-plugin-gnash which depends on gnash.

Mark could always just remove gnome.  It's just a metapackage.

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Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Liam O'Toole]

On 2010-03-17, Mark Allums  wrote:
> On 3/17/2010 4:42 AM, Liam O'Toole wrote:
>> On 2010-03-17, Mark Allums  wrote:
>>> Why does GNOME require Gnash?  And what can I do to put a stop to it?
>>
>> Look at the following metapackages, their descriptions and dependencies:
>>
>>  gnome
>>  gnome-desktop-environment
>>  gnome-core
>>
>> Choose the one which best suits your purposes and install it.
>
>
> Oddly, for some reason, they all require Gnash.  I'm rooting for Gnash, 
> I hope Gnash works out in the end, and with HTML5 video tag, maybe it 
> will, but on my system, in Sqeeze, all three packages are installed, 
> they all require each other, and they all require Gnash, which at the 
> moment, is not my first choice.  At all.
>

I'm surprised to hear that gnome-core requires gnash. It's certainly not
the case on Lenny:

$ apt-cache depends gnome-core
gnome-core
  Depends: gnome-control-center
  Depends: eog
  Depends: gedit
  Depends: gnome-applets
  Depends: gnome-icon-theme
  Depends: gnome-menus
  Depends: gnome-panel
  Depends: gnome-session
  Depends: gnome-settings-daemon
  Depends: gnome-terminal
 |Depends: metacity
  Depends: compiz-gnome
  Depends: nautilus
 |Depends: rarian-compat
  Depends: scrollkeeper
rarian-compat
  Depends: yelp
  Suggests: gnome-desktop-environment

Which release are you running?

-- 
Liam O'Toole
Birmingham, United Kingdom



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Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Mark Allums]

Oddly, for some reason, they all require Gnash. I'm rooting for Gnash, I
hope Gnash works out in the end, and with HTML5 video tag, maybe it
will,


What I said up there was badly put.  What I mean is I hope that Flash 
and Gnash and Silverlight and Moonlight will become obsolete, at least 
as far as embedded video is concerned.


MAA



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Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Mark Allums]

On 3/17/2010 4:42 AM, Liam O'Toole wrote:

On 2010-03-17, Mark Allums  wrote:

Why does GNOME require Gnash?  And what can I do to put a stop to it?


Look at the following metapackages, their descriptions and dependencies:

 gnome
 gnome-desktop-environment
 gnome-core

Choose the one which best suits your purposes and install it.



Oddly, for some reason, they all require Gnash.  I'm rooting for Gnash, 
I hope Gnash works out in the end, and with HTML5 video tag, maybe it 
will, but on my system, in Sqeeze, all three packages are installed, 
they all require each other, and they all require Gnash, which at the 
moment, is not my first choice.  At all.


Thanks,

Mark




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Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Liam O'Toole]

On 2010-03-17, Mark Allums  wrote:
> Gnash is a noble effort.  Gnash sucks.  I want choice, and my choice is 
> Adobe Flash.  Installing Gnash screws up Flash.  Right now, I can refuse 
> to update GNOME on Squeeze any further, but the time will come when that 
> will not be a viable option.  Why does GNOME require Gnash?  And what 
> can I do to put a stop to it?

Look at the following metapackages, their descriptions and dependencies:

gnome
gnome-desktop-environment
gnome-core

Choose the one which best suits your purposes and install it.

-- 
Liam O'Toole
Birmingham, United Kingdom



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Re: Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Ron Johnson]

On 2010-03-17 03:05, Mark Allums wrote:
Gnash is a noble effort.  Gnash sucks.  I want choice, and my choice is 
Adobe Flash.  Installing Gnash screws up Flash.  Right now, I can refuse 
to update GNOME on Squeeze any further, but the time will come when that 
will not be a viable option.  Why does GNOME require Gnash?  And what 
can I do to put a stop to it?




I *think* this will work:

$ apt-rdepends --dotty gnome > gnome.depends.dot
$ graphviz gnome.depends.dot

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Why does installing gnome packages versioned 2.28+6 insist on installing gnash?

[Mark Allums]

Gnash is a noble effort.  Gnash sucks.  I want choice, and my choice is 
Adobe Flash.  Installing Gnash screws up Flash.  Right now, I can refuse 
to update GNOME on Squeeze any further, but the time will come when that 
will not be a viable option.  Why does GNOME require Gnash?  And what 
can I do to put a stop to it?



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