Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thursday, 29 Apr 2021 at 08:24, Jonathan Siegle wrote: > This is working for me on Debian Buster: > http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/compfac/faq/davmail.html Thank you for this. I have spent the past 2 days on this and have finally got davmail working for me. Some issues with versions of firefox (and Thunderbird as this was my test vehicle) but got there eventually. Now have gnus reading email via davmail although hanging after downloading the emails. I've posted on the gnus mailing list about this aspect. Thanks again, eric -- Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50 & org 9.4.6 on Debian bullseye/sid
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thursday, 29 Apr 2021 at 21:09, deloptes wrote: > The admin says "F**k off" :D Yep, that's pretty much what's happened (so far... I'm pushing). -- Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50 & org 9.4.6 on Debian bullseye/sid
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Monday, May 03, 2021 10:03:39 AM Eric S Fraga wrote: > On Monday, 3 May 2021 at 11:23, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > Get a computer monitor instead. In ten years most (if not all) > > traditional TV stations will likely have switched to streaming via the > > internet anyway ;) > > When I went to order a 60" monitor for a meeting room at work, I found > that the equivalent TV (same screen/hardware as the monitor but with a > tuner) was half the price. We bought the TV. +1 Similar experience 7 or so years ago buying two 32" TVs (1080P (lines) capable) -- work great (for me) as monitors (some people might want more resolution, but I don't have a problem -- everything is bigger for my old eyes)..
Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
> I'm also interested to know how good a service you actually get within > buildings, where most of us are most of the time. I see that wireless > repeaters are recommended according to a home's floor area. Are they > repeating 30GHz round the house, or conventional 2/5GHz? If the > latter, there's no need for replacing any of your normal Wifi devices > at all. You just get a cell-modem instead of a cable- or ADSL-modem. I just hope you're right ;-) Stefan
Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Mon 03 May 2021 at 15:47:07 (-0400), Stefan Monnier wrote: > > It doesn't seem sensible to put a cell-connection into each TV > > when they're all immobile. OTOH cars and pets go places. > > > > And is 20GB of data per day a "reasonable usage" on a mobile data plan? > > Whereas 1TB per month on a fixed line is quite normal. > > These arguments seem stuck in the present. > > After all we already have "stationary cell phone" services to replace > land-line phone services They've been around for years. I can't see them as anything more than an option for businesses. > and I think most "phone" companies would be > looking forward to a future where there's no "last mile" any more, there > are only cell towers instead. That may be, but I think most people would prefer the reliability of FTTP or even FTTC if it's available. AIUI with wireless, there's a lot less certainty about what service you're getting, as "5G" covers a multitude of different deployments. One only ever hears headlines about the top speeds achievable, and never about mediocre Low-band 5G. I'm also interested to know how good a service you actually get within buildings, where most of us are most of the time. I see that wireless repeaters are recommended according to a home's floor area. Are they repeating 30GHz round the house, or conventional 2/5GHz? If the latter, there's no need for replacing any of your normal Wifi devices at all. You just get a cell-modem instead of a cable- or ADSL-modem. Cheers, David.
Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Mon, 3 May 2021 21:03:51 +0100 Brian wrote: > On Mon 03 May 2021 at 15:47:07 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > > > It doesn't seem sensible to put a cell-connection into each TV > > > when they're all immobile. OTOH cars and pets go places. > > > > > > And is 20GB of data per day a "reasonable usage" on a mobile data > > > plan? Whereas 1TB per month on a fixed line is quite normal. > > > > These arguments seem stuck in the present. > > > > After all we already have "stationary cell phone" services to > > replace land-line phone services and I think most "phone" companies > > would be looking forward to a future where there's no "last mile" > > any more, there are only cell towers instead. > > Never a truer word and obviously based on great insight. > > Will this impact on Debian users and the problems they face? > It may well do. Spyware through your own network can be somewhat mitigated by firewalling, but not if the offending device has its own Net connection. And we've already seen the suggestion of disabling such a connection, which will work until the device is deliberately designed not to work if it can't phone home, or one's government makes it illegal to disconnect it. -- Joe
Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Mon 03 May 2021 at 15:47:07 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > It doesn't seem sensible to put a cell-connection into each TV > > when they're all immobile. OTOH cars and pets go places. > > > > And is 20GB of data per day a "reasonable usage" on a mobile data plan? > > Whereas 1TB per month on a fixed line is quite normal. > > These arguments seem stuck in the present. > > After all we already have "stationary cell phone" services to replace > land-line phone services and I think most "phone" companies would be > looking forward to a future where there's no "last mile" any more, there > are only cell towers instead. Never a truer word and obviously based on great insight. Will this impact on Debian users and the problems they face?
[OFFTOPIC] Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
> It doesn't seem sensible to put a cell-connection into each TV > when they're all immobile. OTOH cars and pets go places. > > And is 20GB of data per day a "reasonable usage" on a mobile data plan? > Whereas 1TB per month on a fixed line is quite normal. These arguments seem stuck in the present. After all we already have "stationary cell phone" services to replace land-line phone services and I think most "phone" companies would be looking forward to a future where there's no "last mile" any more, there are only cell towers instead. Stefan
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Mon 03 May 2021 at 18:32:13 (+0200), to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Mon, May 03, 2021 at 12:24:48PM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > > There: now your smart-ass TV is a monitor again. > > > > At least until they start using a cell-connection for Internet access > > (which would seem only natural in the world of TVs, which historically > > got their programs over the air) :-( > > Cars do that already. Why shouldn't TVs? Or pet collars? It doesn't seem sensible to put a cell-connection into each TV when they're all immobile. OTOH cars and pets go places. And is 20GB of data per day a "reasonable usage" on a mobile data plan? Whereas 1TB per month on a fixed line is quite normal. Cheers, David.
[OFFTOPIC] Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
>> > There: now your smart-ass TV is a monitor again. >> At least until they start using a cell-connection for Internet access >> (which would seem only natural in the world of TVs, which historically >> got their programs over the air) :-( > Cars do that already. Why shouldn't TVs? Or pet collars? Don't know about pet collars, but for TVs I'm pretty sure it's only a question of time. Stefan
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Mon, May 03, 2021 at 12:24:48PM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > There: now your smart-ass TV is a monitor again. > > At least until they start using a cell-connection for Internet access > (which would seem only natural in the world of TVs, which historically > got their programs over the air) :-( Cars do that already. Why shouldn't TVs? Or pet collars? Cheers - t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
> There: now your smart-ass TV is a monitor again. At least until they start using a cell-connection for Internet access (which would seem only natural in the world of TVs, which historically got their programs over the air) :-( Stefan
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
David Wright wrote: > On Mon 03 May 2021 at 11:23:51 (+0300), Andrei POPESCU wrote: > > On Sb, 01 mai 21, 08:31:04, Joe wrote: > > > On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 17:25:20 -0400 > > > Stefan Monnier wrote: > > > > > > > > viewing material because it's about ten years old. But when we > > > > > inevitably replace it and have no choice about accepting a 'smart' > > > > > TV, > > > > > > > > There are still normal TVs around. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, but not many. We would want another 32" TV, and today the majority > > > of those are not 'smart', in fact they're still advertised as 'HD Ready' > > > i.e. 720 lines, after we've had 1080 line transmissions for many years. > > > But our current TV may go on another ten years, by which time all TVs > > > will be spying devices. > > > > Get a computer monitor instead. In ten years most (if not all) > > traditional TV stations will likely have switched to streaming via the > > internet anyway ;) > > Couldn't possibly afford it. Our last two TVs were $234 (55") and > $250 (43", inc Roku). It costs $330 for the cheapest 34" monitor at > https://www.pcmag.com/deals/best-computer-monitor-deals-this-month > > The only walk-in monitor is $350 for 34" at BestBuy, but it has to > be ultra-wide. (Both TVs were walk-ins.) Otherwise, it's down to 32" > for $170 at Walmart, or 24" for $230 at Target. Since, after all, this is Debian: Use your choice of: - dhcpd: specify the MAC address into a special pool which gets an IP address but a default router that doesn't exist - ebtables: filter out the MAC address so that it's not allowed to pass through your firewall - iptables: filter out the IP address you assign to the TV so it can't pass through the firewall The MAC addresses will be on the TV's back panel, or you can sniff for their DHCP requests. There: now your smart-ass TV is a monitor again. -dsr-
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Mon 03 May 2021 at 11:23:51 (+0300), Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Sb, 01 mai 21, 08:31:04, Joe wrote: > > On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 17:25:20 -0400 > > Stefan Monnier wrote: > > > > > > viewing material because it's about ten years old. But when we > > > > inevitably replace it and have no choice about accepting a 'smart' > > > > TV, > > > > > > There are still normal TVs around. > > > > > > > Yes, but not many. We would want another 32" TV, and today the majority > > of those are not 'smart', in fact they're still advertised as 'HD Ready' > > i.e. 720 lines, after we've had 1080 line transmissions for many years. > > But our current TV may go on another ten years, by which time all TVs > > will be spying devices. > > Get a computer monitor instead. In ten years most (if not all) > traditional TV stations will likely have switched to streaming via the > internet anyway ;) Couldn't possibly afford it. Our last two TVs were $234 (55") and $250 (43", inc Roku). It costs $330 for the cheapest 34" monitor at https://www.pcmag.com/deals/best-computer-monitor-deals-this-month The only walk-in monitor is $350 for 34" at BestBuy, but it has to be ultra-wide. (Both TVs were walk-ins.) Otherwise, it's down to 32" for $170 at Walmart, or 24" for $230 at Target. Cheers, David.
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Monday, 3 May 2021 at 11:23, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > Get a computer monitor instead. In ten years most (if not all) > traditional TV stations will likely have switched to streaming via the > internet anyway ;) When I went to order a 60" monitor for a meeting room at work, I found that the equivalent TV (same screen/hardware as the monitor but with a tuner) was half the price. We bought the TV. -- Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50 & org 9.4.5 on Debian bullseye/sid
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Sb, 01 mai 21, 08:31:04, Joe wrote: > On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 17:25:20 -0400 > Stefan Monnier wrote: > > > > viewing material because it's about ten years old. But when we > > > inevitably replace it and have no choice about accepting a 'smart' > > > TV, > > > > There are still normal TVs around. > > > > Yes, but not many. We would want another 32" TV, and today the majority > of those are not 'smart', in fact they're still advertised as 'HD Ready' > i.e. 720 lines, after we've had 1080 line transmissions for many years. > But our current TV may go on another ten years, by which time all TVs > will be spying devices. Get a computer monitor instead. In ten years most (if not all) traditional TV stations will likely have switched to streaming via the internet anyway ;) Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser signature.asc Description: PGP signature
OT Reading brainwaves [was: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?]
On Mon, May 03, 2021 at 01:46:26AM +0200, Ángel wrote: > On 2021-05-01 at 09:28 +0200, deloptes wrote: > > Some state their brainwaves are being influenced by whatever (video, > > tv, wireless) It could be true, but there is no evidence and the > > probability of this being true is very low. > > Looks like the goal of every advertisement to me. Don't worry: research is hard at it, for already quite a while. We'll eventually arrive there ;-P https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subliminal_stimuli (I know, it's not the same, but closely related and does reveal how much capital & effort is available to progress). Cheers - t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On 2021-05-01 at 09:28 +0200, deloptes wrote: > Some state their brainwaves are being influenced by whatever (video, > tv, wireless) It could be true, but there is no evidence and the > probability of this being true is very low. Looks like the goal of every advertisement to me.
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Sat, 01 May 2021 12:00:30 +0200 deloptes wrote: > Joe wrote: > > > There is nothing 'religious' about assuming that many private > > businesses will take every opportunity to make money from you in > > ways that you would not permit if you were given the choice. What > > is the purpose of 'free' social media, after all? What about the > > written guarantee cards provided with products since the early > > twentieth century, to be returned to obtain some small additional > > benefit? What were they if not the gathering of low-level > > purchasing information to assist future marketing? We *know* that's > > the kind of thing businesses do. We should expect them to use all > > possibly technological assistance to do it more and better. And we > > can certainly expect our rulers to spy on us whenever possible. > > Assumption is not evidence, but if you are intelligent enough, you > would take precautions to make this assumption obsolete. It means you > still do not know if this is true or not, but you take measures in > case it is true. Exactly so. You don't *know* that all the other drivers on the roads with you are lunatics, but you try to drive so that it doesn't matter too much if they are (disclaimer: I've never tried driving in Rome). It's not sane to take precautions against events which cannot possibly happen, but there are very few of those nowadays. > > For me personally I know for sure that I will never get a TV or one > of the normal smart phones. Even with linux and whatever kind of > precautions you never trust that. -- Joe
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
Joe wrote: > There is nothing 'religious' about assuming that many private businesses > will take every opportunity to make money from you in ways that you > would not permit if you were given the choice. What is the purpose of > 'free' social media, after all? What about the written guarantee cards > provided with products since the early twentieth century, to be > returned to obtain some small additional benefit? What were they if not > the gathering of low-level purchasing information to assist future > marketing? We *know* that's the kind of thing businesses do. We should > expect them to use all possibly technological assistance to do it more > and better. And we can certainly expect our rulers to spy on us > whenever possible. Assumption is not evidence, but if you are intelligent enough, you would take precautions to make this assumption obsolete. It means you still do not know if this is true or not, but you take measures in case it is true. For me personally I know for sure that I will never get a TV or one of the normal smart phones. Even with linux and whatever kind of precautions you never trust that.
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On 01-05-2021 18:19, Joe wrote: > On Sat, 01 May 2021 09:28:04 +0200 > deloptes wrote: > >> Joe wrote: >> >> > I know someone who started to be shown online adverts that could >> > only have been based on a sound-wave conversation within the >> > hearing of his smartphone. I don't know about other similar claims, >> > but I trust his. >> > >> > Are you saying that you don't believe anyone could be that naughty? >> > Go look up 'superfish' and 'lenovo' if you're not aware of the >> > incident, and that was years ago. I don't believe that advertisers >> > consider any kind of non-lethal behaviour to be unethical. >> >> People can state anything, but it is not necessary true. >> >> However if you have enabled some kind of assistant like Alexa, Siri or >> whatever they are called, it could be that they are indeed spying on >> you. Again to make such a statement means you need to provide >> evidence. >> >> Some state their brainwaves are being influenced by whatever (video, >> tv, wireless) It could be true, but there is no evidence and the >> probability of this being true is very low. > > At the moment, yes. But there are regular announcements of brain wave > measurements being used by e.g. disabled people to allow some control > of things. Do you doubt for a moment that researchers around the world > are studying brain waves with a view to at least surveillance of > thoughts, if not control, of for weaponry? >> >> I am writing this and asking you to start checking facts and stop >> believing. >> > > Facts have become extremely difficult to come by. Almost every > potential supplier of 'facts' has his own agenda and cannot be trusted > to be honest. Even universities, which used to carry out research just > for the sake of it (e.g. Faraday, Davy etc.) are now mostly sponsored > by businesses and cannot be trusted to be unbiased. Everything has been > made political, and there is nobody who does not have their own > political beliefs and agendas. We users and writers of free software > certainly do. > > I work on the basis that if something underhanded and unethical can be > done and can provide some political or financial return, it *will* be > done until it is discovered and measures are put in place to prevent it > happening, if indeed that ever occurs. Manufacturers *have* been caught > eavesdropping on people in their homes, and said that these occasions > were 'accidental', or for quality control purposes, or some such. Some > even admit to targeting advertising: > > https://www.techwalls.com/samsung-smart-tv-eavesdropping-company-admits/ > > 'Here’s what Samsung says to warn you, at least: > > “Please be aware that if your spoken words include personal or other > sensitive information, that information will be among the data captured > and transmitted to a third party through your use of Voice > Recognition.”' > > Such manufacturers say that voice facilities can be turned off to > prevent this, but whose word do we have to take that it is true? > > Remember when Google StreetView camera vehicles were found to be > collecting personal wifi SSDs and anything available that was > unencrypted as they drove around? > > https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/may/15/google-admits-storing-private-data > > Naturally, there were good, honest reasons for doing that, but Google > would have looked more ethical if it had announced in advance that it > would be doing it, instead of hiding it until it was discovered. > > Remember when the shiny new Windows 95 was found to be accumulating in > a file the names of web sites visited? That was a very crude and > unsophisticated way of spying, a quarter of a century ago, but it > brought to the public's attention the fact that such spying was now > possible. Even Windows 95 was just too large to disassemble and audit, > and an installation was by today's standards a drop in the ocean at > 25MB. Windows now occupies tens of gigabytes, and even a large Linux > installation can be several GB in size. > >> This is not religion. > > There is nothing 'religious' about assuming that many private businesses > will take every opportunity to make money from you in ways that you > would not permit if you were given the choice. What is the purpose of > 'free' social media, after all? What about the written guarantee cards > provided with products since the early twentieth century, to be > returned to obtain some small additional benefit? What were they if not > the gathering of low-level purchasing information to assist future > marketing? We *know* that's the kind of thing businesses do. We should > expect them to use all possibly technological assistance to do it more > and better. And we can certainly expect our rulers to spy on us > whenever possible. Personal information is the new currency: fact! Social media organisations do not fund large server banks, and employ serious numbers of sys. admins, supplying a 24/7 service to supply you with your own personal
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Sat, May 01, 2021 at 10:04:17AM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > On Jo, 29 apr 21, 14:21:22, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > > > > BTW I'm not really a luddite [1]. I'd consider a smart phone if I > > had a comparable control over its guts as I have of my laptop, take > > or give. Those options are, alas, a tad to pricey for my current > > income. > > The PinePhone is interesting. Yes, I know. It is in my shortlist. And, ah... the pinecil :-) Cheers - t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Sat, 01 May 2021 09:28:04 +0200 deloptes wrote: > Joe wrote: > > > I know someone who started to be shown online adverts that could > > only have been based on a sound-wave conversation within the > > hearing of his smartphone. I don't know about other similar claims, > > but I trust his. > > > > Are you saying that you don't believe anyone could be that naughty? > > Go look up 'superfish' and 'lenovo' if you're not aware of the > > incident, and that was years ago. I don't believe that advertisers > > consider any kind of non-lethal behaviour to be unethical. > > People can state anything, but it is not necessary true. > > However if you have enabled some kind of assistant like Alexa, Siri or > whatever they are called, it could be that they are indeed spying on > you. Again to make such a statement means you need to provide > evidence. > > Some state their brainwaves are being influenced by whatever (video, > tv, wireless) It could be true, but there is no evidence and the > probability of this being true is very low. At the moment, yes. But there are regular announcements of brain wave measurements being used by e.g. disabled people to allow some control of things. Do you doubt for a moment that researchers around the world are studying brain waves with a view to at least surveillance of thoughts, if not control, of for weaponry? > > I am writing this and asking you to start checking facts and stop > believing. > Facts have become extremely difficult to come by. Almost every potential supplier of 'facts' has his own agenda and cannot be trusted to be honest. Even universities, which used to carry out research just for the sake of it (e.g. Faraday, Davy etc.) are now mostly sponsored by businesses and cannot be trusted to be unbiased. Everything has been made political, and there is nobody who does not have their own political beliefs and agendas. We users and writers of free software certainly do. I work on the basis that if something underhanded and unethical can be done and can provide some political or financial return, it *will* be done until it is discovered and measures are put in place to prevent it happening, if indeed that ever occurs. Manufacturers *have* been caught eavesdropping on people in their homes, and said that these occasions were 'accidental', or for quality control purposes, or some such. Some even admit to targeting advertising: https://www.techwalls.com/samsung-smart-tv-eavesdropping-company-admits/ 'Here’s what Samsung says to warn you, at least: “Please be aware that if your spoken words include personal or other sensitive information, that information will be among the data captured and transmitted to a third party through your use of Voice Recognition.”' Such manufacturers say that voice facilities can be turned off to prevent this, but whose word do we have to take that it is true? Remember when Google StreetView camera vehicles were found to be collecting personal wifi SSDs and anything available that was unencrypted as they drove around? https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/may/15/google-admits-storing-private-data Naturally, there were good, honest reasons for doing that, but Google would have looked more ethical if it had announced in advance that it would be doing it, instead of hiding it until it was discovered. Remember when the shiny new Windows 95 was found to be accumulating in a file the names of web sites visited? That was a very crude and unsophisticated way of spying, a quarter of a century ago, but it brought to the public's attention the fact that such spying was now possible. Even Windows 95 was just too large to disassemble and audit, and an installation was by today's standards a drop in the ocean at 25MB. Windows now occupies tens of gigabytes, and even a large Linux installation can be several GB in size. > This is not religion. There is nothing 'religious' about assuming that many private businesses will take every opportunity to make money from you in ways that you would not permit if you were given the choice. What is the purpose of 'free' social media, after all? What about the written guarantee cards provided with products since the early twentieth century, to be returned to obtain some small additional benefit? What were they if not the gathering of low-level purchasing information to assist future marketing? We *know* that's the kind of thing businesses do. We should expect them to use all possibly technological assistance to do it more and better. And we can certainly expect our rulers to spy on us whenever possible. -- Joe
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Sat, May 01, 2021 at 08:31:04AM +0100, Joe wrote: > On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 17:25:20 -0400 > Stefan Monnier wrote: > > > > viewing material because it's about ten years old. But when we > > > inevitably replace it and have no choice about accepting a 'smart' > > > TV, > > > > There are still normal TVs around. > > > > Yes, but not many. We would want another 32" TV, and today the majority > of those are not 'smart', in fact they're still advertised as 'HD Ready' > i.e. 720 lines, after we've had 1080 line transmissions for many years. > But our current TV may go on another ten years, by which time all TVs > will be spying devices. For one, in ten years I won't be able to afford a 32". Yes, the TV itself will be obscenely cheap, but the flat to put it in will be correspondingly expensive. So it'll be 16" ;-) For two, the WiFi [1] antenna is pretty easy to locate within the PCB. A strategically placed solder blob will take care of that one :-] Cheers [1] Yeah, I know: at that time, it'll be called Bluetooth VVVLE NewFang™ or something. But the underlying physics are invariant to marketing fads. - t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 17:25:20 -0400 Stefan Monnier wrote: > > viewing material because it's about ten years old. But when we > > inevitably replace it and have no choice about accepting a 'smart' > > TV, > > There are still normal TVs around. > Yes, but not many. We would want another 32" TV, and today the majority of those are not 'smart', in fact they're still advertised as 'HD Ready' i.e. 720 lines, after we've had 1080 line transmissions for many years. But our current TV may go on another ten years, by which time all TVs will be spying devices. -- Joe
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
Joe wrote: > I know someone who started to be shown online adverts that could only > have been based on a sound-wave conversation within the hearing of his > smartphone. I don't know about other similar claims, but I trust his. > > Are you saying that you don't believe anyone could be that naughty? Go > look up 'superfish' and 'lenovo' if you're not aware of the incident, > and that was years ago. I don't believe that advertisers consider any > kind of non-lethal behaviour to be unethical. People can state anything, but it is not necessary true. However if you have enabled some kind of assistant like Alexa, Siri or whatever they are called, it could be that they are indeed spying on you. Again to make such a statement means you need to provide evidence. Some state their brainwaves are being influenced by whatever (video, tv, wireless) It could be true, but there is no evidence and the probability of this being true is very low. I am writing this and asking you to start checking facts and stop believing. This is not religion.
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Jo, 29 apr 21, 14:21:22, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > > BTW I'm not really a luddite [1]. I'd consider a smart phone if I > had a comparable control over its guts as I have of my laptop, take > or give. Those options are, alas, a tad to pricey for my current > income. The PinePhone is interesting. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
> viewing material because it's about ten years old. But when we > inevitably replace it and have no choice about accepting a 'smart' TV, There are still normal TVs around. Stefan
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 20:48:07 +0100 Brian wrote: > On Fri 30 Apr 2021 at 09:04:03 +0100, Joe wrote: > > [...] > > > We are aware that smartphones and the hypothetical 'smart' TV will > > listen to conversations occurring in their vicinities, so we go > > somewhere else for any private conversation. > > Basing one's behaviour on the hypothetical, imagined or presumed > capabilties of physical objects around us is very sad. > I know someone who started to be shown online adverts that could only have been based on a sound-wave conversation within the hearing of his smartphone. I don't know about other similar claims, but I trust his. Are you saying that you don't believe anyone could be that naughty? Go look up 'superfish' and 'lenovo' if you're not aware of the incident, and that was years ago. I don't believe that advertisers consider any kind of non-lethal behaviour to be unethical. -- Joe
Re: Free vs proprietary [was: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?]
to...@tuxteam.de wrote: >> No insult tomas - it's reality. One small tree can not stand the >> avalanche. > > It is -- you said "nobody is doing anything". But there are folks > doing something. Declaring them non-existent is perhaps the worst > insult possible. > > Whether they succeed (or rather: how much and what they accomplish) > is, of course, up to debate. > OK, so you want me to say it in a different way. Despite there were some efforts to do something, the result is zero. I hope you feel better now. In fact I wanted to say that we should try to do something - especially people with influence and power ... it's complicated topic, which I do not want to discuss here and in public. With the "political correctness" dictatorship now everywhere ... I hope you understand. The fact is there was some effort around 2005, but it died before it was born or if you like it was born dead. Very sad! >> > 2. it is defaetist "the others have won, anyway, just accept it >> > and give up". No. Truss up your sleeves ;-) >> > >> >> No give up - we have to bring it to the next level - if it is not handled >> at political level, you can indeed drink a glass of water and go play >> with linux in your basement soon. > > Of course it is political. That's why there are political organisations > doing good ol' lobby work. Since you talk Europe, have a look at FSFE's > campaign "Public Money, Public Code" [1], which is directed at EU > politicians to convince them that whenever public money is spent on > making code, this code should have a free license. > 20y - nothing! IMO this is more important than climate change, but may be it is hard to convince the audience. I personally gave up around 2007 > As those things go, "we haven't won" (you never do, in politics), but > there is some amount of success. > > And there is a bunch of EU parliament MEPs who do understand those > things pretty well (look up, for example Julia Reda [2] who isn't > MEP anymore, but did an outstanding job there). > Again - result is zero! Respect to the people, who try to do something useful there, but it is the same as we talking here. >> Also there is nothing going on in Europe anymore (at least not >> significant except SuSE). There is a lot to discuss about and someone >> must stand for this what happened in the past 15y - especially after >> 2008. > > Those things have become international anyway. SuSE is as much European > as Debian is Oceanic. This [3] isn't perhaps the newest data, but has > a nice pic. Looking at this pic, EU doesn't look underrepresented. Rather > Asia, Africa and big parts of South America, esp. Brazil (although > they have Mageia :-) > You shift the perspective. I put the focus on what started developing open source. I have not heard about Africa or whoever from the "under represented" dealing with computers and free and open source software, when it was being fought a fight here. In fact many do not even care how and why they are able to use internet, smart phone and whatever they do. FSF and Linux did impact the history of computing. I hope you understand what I mean. >> > 3. it's not fun. And that is perhaps the biggest crime on the >> > spirit of computing. Alan Perlis [2] must know! >> > >> >> What do you mean? > > Did you read his quote? Fun in computing is the most important (I'd > tend to agree with him). Doing free software is bound to be more > fun for many reasons (the margin of this mail is too narrow to > write them all down). Ergo... > Ergo ... when the freedom is taken from you, you will do the computing with the stick in the sand. >> > 4. it could be a poisonous meme planted by "our opponents". >> > Where did you pick that up? >> >> What do you mean? > > Demoralisation [4]. A classical trick of the trade. Now I'm not > insinuating that our opponents are Nazis (the first example in the > ref is pretty unfortunate, alas) -- but that kind of trick is of > course played in any commercial endeavour. There are companies > you pay money to do that. Business as usual. > The freedom is being taken away - step by step, hour after hour, while we chat here about the new face of crap MS Office and Corporates imposes on us. > Cheers > > [1] https://publiccode.eu/ > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_Reda > [3] https://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/sect.debian-internals.html > [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demoralization_%28warfare%29 >
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Fri 30 Apr 2021 at 09:04:03 +0100, Joe wrote: [...] > We are aware that smartphones and the hypothetical 'smart' TV will > listen to conversations occurring in their vicinities, so we go > somewhere else for any private conversation. Basing one's behaviour on the hypothetical, imagined or presumed capabilties of physical objects around us is very sad. -- Brian.
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
Kushal Kumaran writes: On Thu, Apr 29 2021 at 06:57:02 PM, Linux-Fan wrote: > Michael Grant writes: > >> I saw in the last 6 months a daemon that let you get oauth tokens on >> linux and then it refereshed the token indefinitely until told to >> stop. Essentially making the token available on linux so you could >> use it in another program that requied a password, for example >> fetchmail or getmail. >> >> I've tried to find it but I'm turning up nothing. I'm pretty sure I >> didn't imagine it! Does anyone recall the name? This could >> definitely be helpful for fetching mail from an account with oauth >> setup. > > I do not know about a daemon, but `oathtool` (package `oathtool`) does a > fine job for TOTP based tokens here. Usage: > >$ oathtool --base32 JBSWY3DPEHPK3PXP >282760 > > Of course, you will need to get the Base32 secret from somewhere. It can > often be accessed from the screens that tell you to scan a QR code with an > authenticator app if you press something like "I cannot scan the code" or > such. oauth is not the same as oath You are right. Sorry for the noise :( Linux-Fan öö [...] pgpAbFqcEH9Z2.pgp Description: PGP signature
Free vs proprietary [was: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?]
On Fri, Apr 30, 2021 at 03:24:52PM +0200, deloptes wrote: > to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > > > 1. it is an insult towards those actually doing something Like > > (random example) this electronic music composer [1] and professor > > (chosen at random among my acquaintances) who makes a point > > of using free software and introduces his audience, music > > students to it > No insult tomas - it's reality. One small tree can not stand the avalanche. It is -- you said "nobody is doing anything". But there are folks doing something. Declaring them non-existent is perhaps the worst insult possible. Whether they succeed (or rather: how much and what they accomplish) is, of course, up to debate. > > 2. it is defaetist "the others have won, anyway, just accept it > > and give up". No. Truss up your sleeves ;-) > > > > No give up - we have to bring it to the next level - if it is not handled at > political level, you can indeed drink a glass of water and go play with > linux in your basement soon. Of course it is political. That's why there are political organisations doing good ol' lobby work. Since you talk Europe, have a look at FSFE's campaign "Public Money, Public Code" [1], which is directed at EU politicians to convince them that whenever public money is spent on making code, this code should have a free license. As those things go, "we haven't won" (you never do, in politics), but there is some amount of success. And there is a bunch of EU parliament MEPs who do understand those things pretty well (look up, for example Julia Reda [2] who isn't MEP anymore, but did an outstanding job there). > Also there is nothing going on in Europe anymore (at least not significant > except SuSE). There is a lot to discuss about and someone must stand for > this what happened in the past 15y - especially after 2008. Those things have become international anyway. SuSE is as much European as Debian is Oceanic. This [3] isn't perhaps the newest data, but has a nice pic. Looking at this pic, EU doesn't look underrepresented. Rather Asia, Africa and big parts of South America, esp. Brazil (although they have Mageia :-) > > 3. it's not fun. And that is perhaps the biggest crime on the > > spirit of computing. Alan Perlis [2] must know! > > > > What do you mean? Did you read his quote? Fun in computing is the most important (I'd tend to agree with him). Doing free software is bound to be more fun for many reasons (the margin of this mail is too narrow to write them all down). Ergo... > > 4. it could be a poisonous meme planted by "our opponents". > > Where did you pick that up? > > What do you mean? Demoralisation [4]. A classical trick of the trade. Now I'm not insinuating that our opponents are Nazis (the first example in the ref is pretty unfortunate, alas) -- but that kind of trick is of course played in any commercial endeavour. There are companies you pay money to do that. Business as usual. Cheers [1] https://publiccode.eu/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_Reda [3] https://debian-handbook.info/browse/stable/sect.debian-internals.html [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demoralization_%28warfare%29 - t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thu, 29 Apr 2021 14:03:37 +0100 Darac Marjal wrote: > > On 29/04/2021 13:11, Eric S Fraga wrote: > > Dystopian is right. Our organization, using O365, has moved to > > "multi-factor authentication" without consultation and I can no longer > > use gnus, for instance. Absolutely horrible. > > Ask your administrator to enable "Per Application Passwords" - > https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/active-directory/user-help/multi-factor-authentication-end-user-app-passwords > > The idea here is that, if a human is logging in, they still provide two > factors (something they know and something they have) via the TOTP > mechanism. But for automated access, where an application is logging in > on behalf of that user, the user generates a long one-off password ONLY > for that application. This works a bit like an API key - password #1 is > for gnus on laptop 1, password #2 is for Fetchmail on laptop 1, password > #3 is for gnus on laptop 2 and so on. Each instance of an application > gets its own long password. > > It's ostensibly more secure than storing the user's password in that > application because: > > * Per-App passwords are computer-generated. They can be tested for high > entropy and regenerated instantaneously, before a "good" password is > offered to the user. (I don't know whether this is actually done, or > whether it's just the output of a pRNG password generator) > > * Per-App passwords can be revoked without spoiling access to other > applications. Did laptop 2 get stolen? Just revoke password #3 and you > don't need to change the passwords stored on Laptop 1. I've been looking into this recently, and I think there's a third, very important but subtle reason why 2FA + application specific passwords are (or at least can be) more secure than the classic password model: the application specific password can be limited to grant permission to access the account *data*, but will not grant permission to alter account settings, so the account cannot be totally hijacked the way it can be with classic passwords if they ever get compromised. Celejar
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > 1. it is an insult towards those actually doing something Like > (random example) this electronic music composer [1] and professor > (chosen at random among my acquaintances) who makes a point > of using free software and introduces his audience, music > students to it > No insult tomas - it's reality. One small tree can not stand the avalanche. > 2. it is defaetist "the others have won, anyway, just accept it > and give up". No. Truss up your sleeves ;-) > No give up - we have to bring it to the next level - if it is not handled at political level, you can indeed drink a glass of water and go play with linux in your basement soon. Also there is nothing going on in Europe anymore (at least not significant except SuSE). There is a lot to discuss about and someone must stand for this what happened in the past 15y - especially after 2008. > 3. it's not fun. And that is perhaps the biggest crime on the > spirit of computing. Alan Perlis [2] must know! > What do you mean? > 4. it could be a poisonous meme planted by "our opponents". > Where did you pick that up? What do you mean?
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 10:35:03 +0200 wrote: > On Fri, Apr 30, 2021 at 09:16:08AM +0100, Joe wrote: > > [...] > > > > Lets admit it ... the goal is to shovel the money to (mostly) US > > > corporations that do not pay any taxes anywhere, to educate the > > > children to be slaves of the corporations and to consume as much > > > as possible. > > > > > > > > > > Indeed. From 2004: > > > > https://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240057429/Newham-staying-with-Microsoft-is-68-cheaper-than-open-source > > > > Ah... that was Microsoft's "TCO" [1] campaign back then. Memories... > Why. It reminds me of... h. OH! YES! It's in my spam collection: > > From: Lean Green Coffee > Subject: 1 "Weird Trick" to Lose FAT > > Well, duh. Old hat, this. > > To offer a counterpoint, a couple of years later: > > > https://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Blogs/Paw-Prints-Writings-of-the-maddog/Microsoft-admits-that-TCO-for-developing-nation-s-schools-is-same-for-Linux-and-Windows > > Cheers > > [1] TCO == "Total Cost of Ownership". It was that time, where some >high profile city councils (Munich, among them [2]) were > considering moving to free software, that Microsoft put their PR > machine in motion to "prove" that their software is cheaper. Well, > duh. > > [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux >LiMux is no more. Some say it has to do with Microsoft moving its >European headquarters to Munich. Luckily, they can't put their >headquarters in each and every European city, so now Barcelona >runs on free software. And the whole region of Extremadura. >And... > To be fair, if your organisation was *already* invested heavily in MS Office and the domain security model, it would have been hard work trying to duplicate that on Linux in 2004. Even now, LibreOffice is seriously buggy and nothing like MS Office to use, so heaps of expensive staff training and downtime involved. On the other hand, a computing facility starting from scratch would have very different economics. -- Joe
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Fri, Apr 30, 2021 at 09:16:08AM +0100, Joe wrote: [...] > > Lets admit it ... the goal is to shovel the money to (mostly) US > > corporations that do not pay any taxes anywhere, to educate the > > children to be slaves of the corporations and to consume as much as > > possible. > > > > > > Indeed. From 2004: > > https://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240057429/Newham-staying-with-Microsoft-is-68-cheaper-than-open-source Ah... that was Microsoft's "TCO" [1] campaign back then. Memories... Why. It reminds me of... h. OH! YES! It's in my spam collection: From: Lean Green Coffee Subject: 1 "Weird Trick" to Lose FAT Well, duh. Old hat, this. To offer a counterpoint, a couple of years later: https://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/Blogs/Paw-Prints-Writings-of-the-maddog/Microsoft-admits-that-TCO-for-developing-nation-s-schools-is-same-for-Linux-and-Windows Cheers [1] TCO == "Total Cost of Ownership". It was that time, where some high profile city councils (Munich, among them [2]) were considering moving to free software, that Microsoft put their PR machine in motion to "prove" that their software is cheaper. Well, duh. [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux LiMux is no more. Some say it has to do with Microsoft moving its European headquarters to Munich. Luckily, they can't put their headquarters in each and every European city, so now Barcelona runs on free software. And the whole region of Extremadura. And... - t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 02:23:25 +0200 deloptes wrote: > Joe wrote: > > > 'No, no,' said the academics, 'the whole world uses Windows 3 so we > > have to teach that.' > > ... because they were payed/bribed/lobbied or just fools > > BTW it is still the same and it became even worse and no one is doing > anything. > Some 15y ago there were ideas to use open source in the public > administration and the schools. What happened with that? Oh, yes, > Microsoft offered very good conditions ... yes. Then those > politicians, free thinkers etc. stopped talking about opensource and > the idea died slowly in the shadow of 9/11, 2008 Lehman Bros etc. > > Lets admit it ... the goal is to shovel the money to (mostly) US > corporations that do not pay any taxes anywhere, to educate the > children to be slaves of the corporations and to consume as much as > possible. > > Indeed. From 2004: https://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240057429/Newham-staying-with-Microsoft-is-68-cheaper-than-open-source -- Joe
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thu, 29 Apr 2021 20:42:17 +0100 Brian wrote: > On Thu 29 Apr 2021 at 14:21:22 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > > [...] > > > BTW I'm not really a luddite [1]. I'd consider a smart phone if I > > had a comparable control over its guts as I have of my laptop, take > > or give. Those options are, alas, a tad to pricey for my current > > income. > > I inagine you might feel the same way about tvs and washing machines. > Why would he? I'm pretty sure there's no camera in the drum of my new washing machine, so all it can report is how often the various wash cycles are run. I have no problem with that, nor do I wish to reprogram it. And while it cost as much as a reasonably good smartphone, it is orders of magnitude more useful. I do have a smartphone, donated by a family member who gets through them fairly quickly. But it's not mine, it's owned by Google, so there's nothing personal stored on it apart from a few phone numbers. I have a netbook for the times when I need a computer outside my house, smartphones are just toys. I do also have a small (second-hand) tablet which I was hoping to use as a portable computer, but it cannot manage to run apache2 and mariadb at the same time. It can, perhaps surprisingly, do either of them individually. TVs are another matter. Mine will tell nobody about my choice of viewing material because it's about ten years old. But when we inevitably replace it and have no choice about accepting a 'smart' TV, it still will know nothing about me, because only my wife watches it. Again, it's of much more use to her than her smartphone. We are aware that smartphones and the hypothetical 'smart' TV will listen to conversations occurring in their vicinities, so we go somewhere else for any private conversation. -- Joe
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Fri, Apr 30, 2021 at 02:23:25AM +0200, deloptes wrote: > Joe wrote: > > > 'No, no,' said the academics, 'the whole world uses Windows 3 so we > > have to teach that.' > > ... because they were payed/bribed/lobbied or just fools > > BTW it is still the same and it became even worse and no one is doing ^^^ > anything. This is the mistake. On many levels: 1. it is an insult towards those actually doing something Like (random example) this electronic music composer [1] and professor (chosen at random among my acquaintances) who makes a point of using free software and introduces his audience, music students to it 2. it is defaetist "the others have won, anyway, just accept it and give up". No. Truss up your sleeves ;-) 3. it's not fun. And that is perhaps the biggest crime on the spirit of computing. Alan Perlis [2] must know! 4. it could be a poisonous meme planted by "our opponents". Where did you pick that up? Cheers (somewhat tongue-in-cheek ;-P [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orm_Finnendahl [2] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Alan_Perlis - t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thu, Apr 29 2021 at 06:57:02 PM, Linux-Fan wrote: > Michael Grant writes: > >> I saw in the last 6 months a daemon that let you get oauth tokens on >> linux and then it refereshed the token indefinitely until told to >> stop. Essentially making the token available on linux so you could >> use it in another program that requied a password, for example >> fetchmail or getmail. >> >> I've tried to find it but I'm turning up nothing. I'm pretty sure I >> didn't imagine it! Does anyone recall the name? This could >> definitely be helpful for fetching mail from an account with oauth >> setup. > > I do not know about a daemon, but `oathtool` (package `oathtool`) does a > fine job for TOTP based tokens here. Usage: > > $ oathtool --base32 JBSWY3DPEHPK3PXP > 282760 > > Of course, you will need to get the Base32 secret from somewhere. It can > often be accessed from the screens that tell you to scan a QR code with an > authenticator app if you press something like "I cannot scan the code" or > such. > oauth is not the same as oath -- regards, kushal
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
Joe wrote: > 'No, no,' said the academics, 'the whole world uses Windows 3 so we > have to teach that.' ... because they were payed/bribed/lobbied or just fools BTW it is still the same and it became even worse and no one is doing anything. Some 15y ago there were ideas to use open source in the public administration and the schools. What happened with that? Oh, yes, Microsoft offered very good conditions ... yes. Then those politicians, free thinkers etc. stopped talking about opensource and the idea died slowly in the shadow of 9/11, 2008 Lehman Bros etc. Lets admit it ... the goal is to shovel the money to (mostly) US corporations that do not pay any taxes anywhere, to educate the children to be slaves of the corporations and to consume as much as possible.
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thu 29 Apr 2021 at 21:48:29 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 08:42:17PM +0100, Brian wrote: > > On Thu 29 Apr 2021 at 14:21:22 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > > > > [...] > > > > > BTW I'm not really a luddite [1]. I'd consider a smart phone if I > > > had a comparable control over its guts as I have of my laptop, take > > > or give. Those options are, alas, a tad to pricey for my current > > > income. > > > > I inagine you might feel the same way about tvs and washing machines. > > Kind of. I made a point of buying a non-smart TV (our old one gave > up -- conveniently -- at a time where non-smart TVs could be had > at a discount :-) With one bound he was free! :) -- Brian.
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 08:42:17PM +0100, Brian wrote: > On Thu 29 Apr 2021 at 14:21:22 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > > [...] > > > BTW I'm not really a luddite [1]. I'd consider a smart phone if I > > had a comparable control over its guts as I have of my laptop, take > > or give. Those options are, alas, a tad to pricey for my current > > income. > > I inagine you might feel the same way about tvs and washing machines. Kind of. I made a point of buying a non-smart TV (our old one gave up -- conveniently -- at a time where non-smart TVs could be had at a discount :-) Cheers - t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 08:35:40PM +0100, Joe wrote: > On Thu, 29 Apr 2021 17:45:58 +0200 > to...@tuxteam.de wrote: [academia] > > They are supposed to lead the way to the Light :) > > > > It's their job. Or something. > > > > Sadly, no. It's not something new: back in the early 90s, Acorn was > trying to sell the Archimedes (British made, with a 32 bit ARM > processor) to schools and universities. > > 'No, no,' said the academics, 'the whole world uses Windows 3 so we > have to teach that.' Well, I consider it as my part of a job as a taxpayer to raise a stink about this from time to time ;-D Cheers - t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thu 29 Apr 2021 at 14:21:22 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: [...] > BTW I'm not really a luddite [1]. I'd consider a smart phone if I > had a comparable control over its guts as I have of my laptop, take > or give. Those options are, alas, a tad to pricey for my current > income. I inagine you might feel the same way about tvs and washing machines. -- Brian.
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thu, 29 Apr 2021 17:45:58 +0200 to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 04:39:06PM +0100, Eric S Fraga wrote: > > On Thursday, 29 Apr 2021 at 16:43, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > > > Judging by your mail address, you are in academia. This is doubly > > > sad. > > > > My experience is that academic institutions are no different than > > any other organization in these regards. For better or for worse. > > They are supposed to lead the way to the Light :) > > It's their job. Or something. > Sadly, no. It's not something new: back in the early 90s, Acorn was trying to sell the Archimedes (British made, with a 32 bit ARM processor) to schools and universities. 'No, no,' said the academics, 'the whole world uses Windows 3 so we have to teach that.' Of course, hindsight showed that when Windows 95 appeared a couple of years later, it had a look and feel far more similar to RiscOs on the Archimedes than it did to Win3, which was just a graphics shell bolted onto single-user DOS. By the time most of these students left school and university, Win3 had gone the way of the dodo. A little further thought would have shown that students being taught at that time (and ever since) would go on to spend their entire lives adapting to newer and shinier IT systems and learning how to operate new software every few years, so some diversity at an early age would have been of more benefit than a monoculture. -- Joe
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
Darac Marjal wrote: > Ask your administrator to enable "Per Application Passwords" - The admin says "F**k off" :D
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
Michael Grant writes: I saw in the last 6 months a daemon that let you get oauth tokens on linux and then it refereshed the token indefinitely until told to stop. Essentially making the token available on linux so you could use it in another program that requied a password, for example fetchmail or getmail. I've tried to find it but I'm turning up nothing. I'm pretty sure I didn't imagine it! Does anyone recall the name? This could definitely be helpful for fetching mail from an account with oauth setup. I do not know about a daemon, but `oathtool` (package `oathtool`) does a fine job for TOTP based tokens here. Usage: $ oathtool --base32 JBSWY3DPEHPK3PXP 282760 Of course, you will need to get the Base32 secret from somewhere. It can often be accessed from the screens that tell you to scan a QR code with an authenticator app if you press something like "I cannot scan the code" or such. HTH Linux-Fan pgpmTYmvChzw1.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 04:39:06PM +0100, Eric S Fraga wrote: > On Thursday, 29 Apr 2021 at 16:43, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > > Judging by your mail address, you are in academia. This is doubly sad. > > My experience is that academic institutions are no different than any > other organization in these regards. For better or for worse. They are supposed to lead the way to the Light :) It's their job. Or something. Cheers - t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thursday, 29 Apr 2021 at 16:43, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > Judging by your mail address, you are in academia. This is doubly sad. My experience is that academic institutions are no different than any other organization in these regards. For better or for worse. -- Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50 & org 9.4.5 on Debian bullseye/sid
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 02:14:12PM +0100, Eric S Fraga wrote: > On Thursday, 29 Apr 2021 at 09:03, Greg Wooledge wrote: > > I'm sure there are people within that department who would outlaw all > > non-Windows desktops, if they could, because they don't control > > them. > > I've been fighting this for 25+ years at my institution, using Linux > throughout. They've given up but the challenges continue: you must use > Outlook, Word, ... And now we have to use SharePoint and Teams and all > these tools don't even talk to each other properly even though they come > from the same vendor. What a joke. Judging by your mail address, you are in academia. This is doubly sad. Cheers - t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 09:03:25AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 01:27:07PM +0100, Eric S Fraga wrote: > > And to think that email was once a simple yet effective tool. It's been > > hijacked. > > Spammers took control of it years ago. It's been dying off, slowly. I don't believe it's "just" spammers. While I don't believe either that virus scanner vendors would write viruses themselves, they are absolutely interested in some threat happening out there. Same with those trying to push silos to replace e-mail. Not to say that spam and malware is harmless. Just saying that business is opportunistic, and as ethical as absolutely need be, not more -- it'd flounder otherwise. > While we're swapping anecdotes, I'll give what limited insight I have > into my own workplace's handling of email. For starters, some of you > may have noticed that I changed my email address on this mailing list. [...] I know that kind of drill. The way I survived was by having a ssh connection to the outside. Once the whole department changed floors and port 22 was closed. I just tunnelled over https [1] then. My direct boss knew, she understood that I was infinitely more useful like that and trusted me on not misusing things. (I got scolded on this very list by someone for disclosing this: must have been one of those authoritarian admins ;-) Ultimately, that kind of thing is what drove me out of BigCorp. Not being treated like a human just lowers my motivation by a sizeable bit. Cheers [1] Just imagine the screaming when Internet banking stops working. And the sec admins hadn't the stamina to play https man-in-the-middle How I did? Socat is wonderful :-) - t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
I saw in the last 6 months a daemon that let you get oauth tokens on linux and then it refereshed the token indefinitely until told to stop. Essentially making the token available on linux so you could use it in another program that requied a password, for example fetchmail or getmail. I've tried to find it but I'm turning up nothing. I'm pretty sure I didn't imagine it! Does anyone recall the name? This could definitely be helpful for fetching mail from an account with oauth setup. Michael Grant signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 01:53:48PM +0100, Eric S Fraga wrote: > On Thursday, 29 Apr 2021 at 14:38, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 01:27:07PM +0100, Eric S Fraga wrote: > >> 2. txt message to your phone (so need not be "smart") > > > > You know those can be (and have been) hi-jacked, don't you? > > Yeah. :-( > > What really gets me is the hypocrisy of the whole situation. I've been > pushing to have people use public key encryption but they insist on > sending emails with confidential information in plain text. Oh, "MFA > will make everything secure"... Yes, but 2FA is just about getting the human factor out of the loop. Put yourself into Google's or Facebook's shoes. All those users who forget their passwords (or even worse, come up with easily guessable ones, or use the same password across several services, yadda, yadda). This is just support burden which diminishes margin. Now there would be two ways out of that: educate your users or keep them dumb and take them out of the loop. Which one aligns better with their business plan? After all, for them "users" are turnips, potatos or cattle: the product, not the customer. > > I'm not very much into conspiracy theories [...] > Everybody needs to be in those walled gardens: Facebook, et al. :-( That's why I think that they /at least/ "let it happen happily". Nudging it here and there would make even more sense, strategically. Not poison the well to sell bottled water, but perhaps sliding something disgusting in there, from time to time. Cheers - t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thursday, 29 Apr 2021 at 15:16, Erwan David wrote: > You can define "application password" in O365 for this case (at least > I can at work, may depends on the settings of your tenant) Yes, thank you. Somebody else has also pointed out this option. I will be looking into it as it seems like it will work. Or I will switch to davmail. Solutions do seem to exist! -- Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50 & org 9.4.5 on Debian bullseye/sid
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thursday, 29 Apr 2021 at 14:38, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 01:27:07PM +0100, Eric S Fraga wrote: >> 2. txt message to your phone (so need not be "smart") > > You know those can be (and have been) hi-jacked, don't you? Yeah. :-( What really gets me is the hypocrisy of the whole situation. I've been pushing to have people use public key encryption but they insist on sending emails with confidential information in plain text. Oh, "MFA will make everything secure"... > I'm not very much into conspiracy theories, but here, I'm convinced that > the "big players" want to downright kill mail because there's no way > for them to monetise it. Everybody needs to be in those walled gardens: Facebook, et al. :-( sigh. -- Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50 & org 9.4.5 on Debian bullseye/sid
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thursday, 29 Apr 2021 at 14:03, Darac Marjal wrote: > Ask your administrator to enable "Per Application Passwords" - Thank you. I've looked at this and it looks feasible (if they enable this which is unfortunately not very likely but still worth asking). -- Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50 & org 9.4.5 on Debian bullseye/sid
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
Le 29/04/2021 à 14:11, Eric S Fraga a écrit : Dystopian is right. Our organization, using O365, has moved to "multi-factor authentication" without consultation and I can no longer use gnus, for instance. Absolutely horrible. You can define "application password" in O365 for this case (at least I can at work, may depends on the settings of your tenant)
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thursday, 29 Apr 2021 at 09:03, Greg Wooledge wrote: > I'm sure there are people within that department who would outlaw all > non-Windows desktops, if they could, because they don't control > them. I've been fighting this for 25+ years at my institution, using Linux throughout. They've given up but the challenges continue: you must use Outlook, Word, ... And now we have to use SharePoint and Teams and all these tools don't even talk to each other properly even though they come from the same vendor. What a joke. -- Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50 & org 9.4.5 on Debian bullseye/sid
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On 29/04/2021 13:11, Eric S Fraga wrote: > Dystopian is right. Our organization, using O365, has moved to > "multi-factor authentication" without consultation and I can no longer > use gnus, for instance. Absolutely horrible. Ask your administrator to enable "Per Application Passwords" - https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/active-directory/user-help/multi-factor-authentication-end-user-app-passwords The idea here is that, if a human is logging in, they still provide two factors (something they know and something they have) via the TOTP mechanism. But for automated access, where an application is logging in on behalf of that user, the user generates a long one-off password ONLY for that application. This works a bit like an API key - password #1 is for gnus on laptop 1, password #2 is for Fetchmail on laptop 1, password #3 is for gnus on laptop 2 and so on. Each instance of an application gets its own long password. It's ostensibly more secure than storing the user's password in that application because: * Per-App passwords are computer-generated. They can be tested for high entropy and regenerated instantaneously, before a "good" password is offered to the user. (I don't know whether this is actually done, or whether it's just the output of a pRNG password generator) * Per-App passwords can be revoked without spoiling access to other applications. Did laptop 2 get stolen? Just revoke password #3 and you don't need to change the passwords stored on Laptop 1. OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 01:27:07PM +0100, Eric S Fraga wrote: > And to think that email was once a simple yet effective tool. It's been > hijacked. Spammers took control of it years ago. It's been dying off, slowly. While we're swapping anecdotes, I'll give what limited insight I have into my own workplace's handling of email. For starters, some of you may have noticed that I changed my email address on this mailing list. This is because of policy changes at work that made it effectively impossible for me to read technical emails via my previous address. So now I'm subscribed from my personal address instead. This will work for me as long as I'm working primarily from home, under Covid rules. Looking at the subject of this thread just makes me cringe inside, because whoever is asking that question still has hope. And that hope is going to be crushed. My workplace's official policy is that we are no longer allowed to have an independent email service of our own. Period. Full stop. All email at work has to go through the corporate system, which is Microsoft. No exceptions. We're not allowed to host mailboxes, we're not allowed to receive email from the outside, and we're not allowed to send email outside, unless it goes through their relays. In order to continue reading debian-user at work, I would have to allow its messages to be sent to Microsoft. I would be reading them through Outlook Web App. I cannot accept this. It's not tolerable. So, I unsubscribed from that address, and switched over to this one. Some of you may be wondering why corporations have done this. In the case of mine, it's because of incredibly powerful fears of phishing and malware. Some health care providers have been shut down by it in the last half year, and all the rest are utterly terrified. So, the official policy is that all incoming email has to go through the corporate system, which blocks and filters everything to an extreme degree, in order to try to prevent a malware intrusion via email. Access to external mail systems like gmail is also blocked, for the same reason -- they're terrified that someone will receive a malware email at an external address, view it via web mail in a browser on a Windows machine, and bring a virus/worm into the corporate network that way. (They cannot even *comprehend* that some people are not running Windows, or reading email in anything other than Outlook or a web browser. Not that it would matter to them. I'm sure there are people within that department who would outlaw all non-Windows desktops, if they could, because they don't control them. That department feels a need to control literally *everything* computer-related that any employee ever sees or touches.)
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thursday, 29 Apr 2021 at 14:21, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > That means you've to carry a funny dongle with you all the time? > Or is the "second factor" that oh-so-secure "smart" phone? Three choices for second factor: 1. use MS's own app for authentication. Yeah, right. 2. txt message to your phone (so need not be "smart") 3. a phone call to your phone (could be landline or mobile) I've gone with 2 as that works most effectively wherever I may be (e.g. out of country, once things return to normal, assuming they do...). And to think that email was once a simple yet effective tool. It's been hijacked. -- Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50 & org 9.4.5 on Debian bullseye/sid
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 08:24:36AM -0400, Jonathan Siegle wrote: [...] > This is working for me on Debian Buster: > http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/compfac/faq/davmail.html Heroes! :-) Thanks for the link, cheers - t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 01:27:07PM +0100, Eric S Fraga wrote: > On Thursday, 29 Apr 2021 at 14:21, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > > That means you've to carry a funny dongle with you all the time? > > Or is the "second factor" that oh-so-secure "smart" phone? > > Three choices for second factor: > > 1. use MS's own app for authentication. Yeah, right. Yeah ;-) > 2. txt message to your phone (so need not be "smart") You know those can be (and have been) hi-jacked, don't you? > I've gone with 2 as that works most effectively wherever I may be > (e.g. out of country, once things return to normal, assuming they > do...). Yes, looks like the least obnoxious. Perhaps one could McGyver something around it with a GSM stick playing mobile phone? ;-) > And to think that email was once a simple yet effective tool. It's been > hijacked. I'm not very much into conspiracy theories, but here, I'm convinced that the "big players" want to downright kill mail because there's no way for them to monetise it. At the time O365 was desperately trying to enter that BigCorp I talked about, there was a buzzing meme in the hierarchy's mid- to high echelons, on how "email is kind of old and ineffective". I'm *sure* that buzz had been planted into their ears by Wormtong^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H uh, the Microsoft sales rep. After all, they know how to talk to decision makers. They are paid for that. Cheers - t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On 2021-04-28 at 20:20, Gregor Zattler wrote: Which means that I have to authenticate via a web form with the company's login server. MS does not know the passwords instead hashes are exchanged between the servers. Some clients (Outlook) are able to cache successful authentication for days but also need to relay authentication to the company's server. I would like to use IMAP to access email in order to circumvent Outlook, but AFAIK there is no way for fetchmail or other command line tools to authenticate via web page and use the IMAP Server then (Thunderbird is able to do this but I don't want to use Thunderbird). I hoped davmail would be able to do that but I have no clue how to tell davmail to authenticate in this way. AFAIK the only way is to provide a password which does not apply here. This is working for me on Debian Buster: http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/compfac/faq/davmail.html I run davmail 5.5 as suggested. Don't forget to set it up as O365Interactive to get the web page to show up. I also run fetchmail to put the INBOX into /var/mail/ . Just point fetchmail at your davmail imap port. -Jonathan smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 01:11:08PM +0100, Eric S Fraga wrote: > Dystopian is right. Our organization, using O365, has moved to > "multi-factor authentication" without consultation and I can no longer > use gnus, for instance. Absolutely horrible. That means you've to carry a funny dongle with you all the time? Or is the "second factor" that oh-so-secure "smart" phone? (FWIW, I could offer some resistance by making a point of carrying around a "classical" dumb phone, usually the cheapest I could get hold of -- f.ex. my current one doesn't even have a camera; whenever someone came up with some clever schema involving a pocket computer, I usually put mine on the table... the "oh"s and the sad faces following that moment were worth the whole thing, and usually killed further discussions ;-) BTW I'm not really a luddite [1]. I'd consider a smart phone if I had a comparable control over its guts as I have of my laptop, take or give. Those options are, alas, a tad to pricey for my current income. Cheers Just a tiny bit ;-) - t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
Dystopian is right. Our organization, using O365, has moved to "multi-factor authentication" without consultation and I can no longer use gnus, for instance. Absolutely horrible. -- Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50 & org 9.4.5 on Debian bullseye/sid
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Thu, Apr 29, 2021 at 09:04:35AM +0200, deloptes wrote: > Kushal Kumaran wrote: > > > I think IMAP should work regardless. My workplace uses federated > > authentication, and davmail works fine for me. > > I think it depends how it is setup and what policy applies. Especially this > 3D authentication is not likely to be implemented in the opensource > software and non of it works for me. Yes. Half-a-life ago, while in dystopian Bigcorp environment, I had to bribe Windows admins to keep up Outlook's IMAP with... NTLM auth. Fetchmail worked fine [1] with that. But the '365 winds got stronger and stronger, accompanied by a pretty mail-hostile campaign by Microsoft vendors. Luckily I quit at about that time. Perhaps Someone (TM) will have to do the heroic effort the folks at Youtube-dl do, to jump through endless nightmarish webby hoops to get at the real content (one weak consolation may be that it's probably JSON these days and not HTML, so it looks a bit more like data ;-) Cheers [1] Something I still feel tears of gratitude towards fetchmail folks. As for all those free software folks doing crazy things. - t signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
Kushal Kumaran wrote: > I think IMAP should work regardless. My workplace uses federated > authentication, and davmail works fine for me. I think it depends how it is setup and what policy applies. Especially this 3D authentication is not likely to be implemented in the opensource software and non of it works for me.
Re: how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
On Wed, Apr 28 2021 at 08:20:37 PM, Gregor Zattler wrote: > Dear debian users, the company which employs me uses MS 365 > (former Office 365) in a federated setup where users are > taken from MS to the companys login server for > authentication. > > Which means that I have to authenticate via a web form with > the company's login server. MS does not know the passwords > instead hashes are exchanged between the servers. Some > clients (Outlook) are able to cache successful > authentication for days but also need to relay > authentication to the company's server. > > I would like to use IMAP to access email in order to > circumvent Outlook, but AFAIK there is no way for fetchmail > or other command line tools to authenticate via web page and > use the IMAP Server then (Thunderbird is able to do this but > I don't want to use Thunderbird). > > I hoped davmail would be able to do that but I have no clue > how to tell davmail to authenticate in this way. AFAIK the > only way is to provide a password which does not apply here. > > Any ideas, help? > I use my work email address as the username and the work password along with it when using imap/smtp with davmail. There are multiple sign-in options (one of which was selected by your employer) listed at https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/azure/active-directory/hybrid/plan-connect-user-signin, but I think IMAP should work regardless. My workplace uses federated authentication, and davmail works fine for me. Have you tried and failed to authenticate using your email address and password? -- regards, kushal
how to use fetchmail with MS Office 365 / davmail?
Dear debian users, the company which employs me uses MS 365 (former Office 365) in a federated setup where users are taken from MS to the companys login server for authentication. Which means that I have to authenticate via a web form with the company's login server. MS does not know the passwords instead hashes are exchanged between the servers. Some clients (Outlook) are able to cache successful authentication for days but also need to relay authentication to the company's server. I would like to use IMAP to access email in order to circumvent Outlook, but AFAIK there is no way for fetchmail or other command line tools to authenticate via web page and use the IMAP Server then (Thunderbird is able to do this but I don't want to use Thunderbird). I hoped davmail would be able to do that but I have no clue how to tell davmail to authenticate in this way. AFAIK the only way is to provide a password which does not apply here. Any ideas, help? Ciao; Gregor -- -... --- .-. . -.. ..--.. ...-.-
