Re: time to split the list?
On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, Bruce Perens wrote: Some newbies tell me they find debian-user intimidating due to the high level of technical discussion that sometimes goes on there. Is it time to split the list? About 2 years ago I proposed a separate list just for people trying to install the system. At the time we did not have enough traffic for that. We probably do now. I would propose: debian-install debian-nontechnical debian-technical Now I just have to find our list administrator :-) . Bruce This sounds like a good idea, but I'd sure like to see one of the lists a superset of the others if that's possible (a la crossposting?) Also, there's a new section in linux journal providing help with various distributions. Last time I checked, Debian didn't have an entry. Perhaps we should come up with a debian-support list? Thanks Richard G. Roberto [EMAIL PROTECTED] 201-739-2886 - whippany, nj -- *** Bear Stearns is not responsible for any recommendation, solicitation, offer or agreement or any information about any transaction, customer account or account activity contained in this communication. ***
Re: time to split the list?
Yes!! (In addition, a master containing all messages would probobly be appreciated by the thorough, the obsesive and the idle.) ALSO: Making either the master or all subsets available as a digest would REALLY help! I'm getting the firewall list this way. It's very tidy. (Perhaps those maintaining it could offer some pointers.) - ef Richard G. Roberto wrote: On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, Bruce Perens wrote: Some newbies tell me they find debian-user intimidating due to the high level of technical discussion that sometimes goes on there. Is it time to split the list? About 2 years ago I proposed a separate list just for people trying to install the system. At the time we did not have enough traffic for that. We probably do now. I would propose: debian-install debian-nontechnical debian-technical Now I just have to find our list administrator :-) . Bruce This sounds like a good idea, but I'd sure like to see one of the lists a superset of the others if that's possible (a la crossposting?) Also, there's a new section in linux journal providing help with various distributions. Last time I checked, Debian didn't have an entry. Perhaps we should come up with a debian-support list? Thanks Richard G. Roberto [EMAIL PROTECTED] 201-739-2886 - whippany, nj -- *** Bear Stearns is not responsible for any recommendation, solicitation, offer or agreement or any information about any transaction, customer account or account activity contained in this communication. ***
Re: time to split the list?
I would not like to see the mailing list exchanged for a news group. My news source is very slow and unreliable. I do not seem to get a lot of the messages. Split the mailing list, but do not get rid of it all together. Mark Phillips. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: time to split the list?
This is a good idea. I would suggest: debian-install debian-user (instead of debian-technical) debian-novice (instead of debian-nontechnical). Derrick.
Re: time to split the list?
In your email to me, Bruce Perens, you wrote: Some newbies tell me they find debian-user intimidating due to the high level of technical discussion that sometimes goes on there. Is it time to split the list? About 2 years ago I proposed a separate list just for people trying to install the system. At the time we did not have enough traffic for that. We probably do now. I would propose: debian-install debian-nontechnical debian-technical I think this is a good idea. Would debian-user stay, or go away? Tim -- (work) [EMAIL PROTECTED] / (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.buoy.com/~tps Why am I soft in the middle, and the rest of my life is so hard? Paul Simon ** Disclaimer: My views/comments/beliefs, as strange as they are, are my own.**
Re: time to split the list?
On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, Bruce Perens wrote: |Date: Thu, 5 Sep 96 13:58 PDT |From: Bruce Perens [EMAIL PROTECTED] |To: debian-user@lists.debian.org |Subject: time to split the list? | |Some newbies tell me they find debian-user intimidating due to the high |level of technical discussion that sometimes goes on there. Is it time |to split the list? About 2 years ago I proposed a separate list just for |people trying to install the system. At the time we did not have enough |traffic for that. We probably do now. | |I would propose: | | debian-install | debian-nontechnical | debian-technical | it's a very good idea , but i don't understand whats debian-nontechnical would do? Regards ___ Boris Beletsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] (finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for pgp public key) ___ Commorandi natura deversorium nobis, non habitandi dedit
Re: time to split the list?
At 01:58 PM 9/5/96 PDT, you wrote: Some newbies tell me they find debian-user intimidating due to the high level of technical discussion that sometimes goes on there. Is it time to split the list? About 2 years ago I proposed a separate list just for people trying to install the system. At the time we did not have enough traffic for that. We probably do now. I would propose: debian-install debian-nontechnical debian-technical Now I just have to find our list administrator :-) . Bruce Maybe debian-user and debian-install, to keep it simple? --- Key fingerprint = D6 A7 D7 8C 92 CB 42 FD 60 D5 62 1C D7 B9 EA 8E Ken Gaugler N6OSK Hybrid Networks, Inc. Cupertino, Calif. URL: www.hybrid.com (home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] URL: users.aimnet.com/~keng) The life of a Repo Man is ALWAYS INTENSE...
Re: time to split the list?
Some newbies tell me they find debian-user intimidating due to the high level of technical discussion that sometimes goes on there. Is it time to split the list? About 2 years ago I proposed a separate list just for people trying to install the system. At the time we did not have enough traffic for that. We probably do now. People love to complain about there being too much information, but they overlook the fact that the reason they can get information and fast responses is because there is so much going on there. If you split the list, many people will not subscribe to some of them and thus will not be available to answer questions. The result is a need to crosspost to all lists in order to get a decent response. I, for example, probably will not subscribe to the install and non-tech groups (maybe not even technical since I don't understand what each is for) and thus will not see questions regarding my packages. My personal opinion is that splitting the lists will add much confusion and help little. Brian ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) --- In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they're not.
Re: time to split the list?
On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, Bruce Perens wrote: Is it time to split the list? This isn't necessary. The number of messages per day is quite reasonable. As long as discussions are related to Debian, I don't think it inappropriate that they get tecnical. Guy
Re: time to split the list?
On 06:20:26 Boris Yati Beletsky wrote: On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, Bruce Perens wrote: |I would propose: | | debian-install | debian-nontechnical | debian-technical | it's a very good idea , but i don't understand whats debian-nontechnical would do? Well, I don't like it. I've learned alot from the dialog, but I must admit that often you guys get talking about issues that are unique to the packaging or something, and has nothing to do with the user. Its more like the maintainers often dialog here when that may be better done elsewhere. Like, what I meant to do with this or that, but didn't have the time.Then the response goes, well, why not do it this way, and we're offMaybe there should be a separate debian-install, but the other stuff is pretty much debian-user (minus the developer or maintainer nits this and nit that) if you ask me. Paul ___ Boris Beletsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] (finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for pgp public key) ___ Commorandi natura deversorium nobis, non habitandi dedit
Re: time to split the list?
Some newbies tell me they find debian-user intimidating due to the high level of technical discussion that sometimes goes on there. Is it time to split the list? About 2 years ago I proposed a separate list just for people trying to install the system. At the time we did not have enough traffic for that. We probably do now. I would propose: debian-install debian-nontechnical debian-technical Now I just have to find our list administrator :-) . Bruce If the lists were split the debian-user list could then get all messages from all the lists (something like the exmh-workers list). -- Eze Ogwuma
RE: time to split the list?
Brian C. White wrote: People love to complain about there being too much information, but they overlook the fact that the reason they can get information and fast responses is because there is so much going on there. If you split the list, many people will not subscribe to some of them and thus will not be available to answer questions. The result is a need to crosspost to all lists in order to get a decent response. On the other hand, a little sorting saves a lot of time - time that can be used to actively contribute. I voiced my support for Bruce's idea, but also said that we could compromise by having at least a separate debian-install list. There are several issues: i. We are probably losing potential Debian users due to the size and significant inaccessible technical content of debian-user. 60-70 messages a day is a lot to cope with, especially when you have other interests. When much of it is Double Dutch, you tend to feel intimidated. * we lose fewer fans ii. Decreasing the amount of irrelevant or uninteresting traffic leaves more time to spend usefully contributing. * we have more useful time iii.Some people get a real kick out of helping a newbie into the fray. Some do some of the time. Others don't. If someone /wants/ to help, they'll subscribe. If they don't have time today, well they can just junk all the traffic in that list for today. Doing this manually is a bind. I agree that we'll lose some help because people who would have been able to assist with a problem didn't subscribe to the debian-install list, but I also think that there'll still be sufficient altruism and expertise available. The trade-offs are worth it. * we save effort I, for example, probably will not subscribe to the install and non-tech groups I imagine that, in a similar vein, you also don't spend much time read non-technical and installation-specific posts. More's the better for you if the traffic isn't there in the first place. (maybe not even technical since I don't understand what each is for) and thus will not see questions regarding my packages. My personal opinion is that splitting the lists will add much confusion and help little. I really don't see much difficulty is interpreting Bruce's categories. Do you think the titles are confusing? Suppose we just had debian-user and debian-install. Would this be okay? After reading your posts, I'm coming around to the view that two groups - debian-user and debian-install - would be best. There is perhaps insufficient non-technical discussion to warrant a separate list. Casper Boden-Cummins. -- Please do not cc: me when replying to the list
Re: time to split the list?
Ken == Ken Gaugler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ken Maybe debian-user and debian-install, to keep it simple? I second this. -- Billy C.-M. Chow [EMAIL PROTECTED] Debian Linux
Re: time to split the list?
Casper BodenCummins: After reading your posts, I'm coming around to the view that two groups - debian-user and debian-install - would be best. There is perhaps insufficient non-technical discussion to warrant a separate list. We already have the debian-talk list (send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for info). -- Please read http://www.iki.fi/liw/mail-to-lasu.html before mailing me. Please don't Cc: me when replying to my message on a mailing list. pgpVsaakanhyL.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: time to split the list?
On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, Bruce Perens wrote: Some newbies tell me they find debian-user intimidating due to the high level of technical discussion that sometimes goes on there. Is it time to split the list? About 2 years ago I proposed a separate list just for people trying to install the system. At the time we did not have enough traffic for that. We probably do now. I suspect that the intimidation is more due to the volume of mail (specially if these folks are suggesting that a news group would be a better forum) and simply don't wish to deal with that volume. Any good mail viewer (even pine) provide good sort facilities (to pull a thread together), so there is no reason to have to read messages that are too technical. Another point: Our mailing lists are some of the most friendly forums available on the net and only the most obnoxious folks recieve any flames. I would propose: debian-install debian-nontechnical debian-technical I would prefer debian-install, debian-user, and debian-devel. I don't see any discussion of Debian that could go into debian-nontechnical. Even a discussion of the color scheme in dselect could quickly degenerate into a technical discussion. As has been stated elsewhere, we already have debian-talk, which satisfies all needs for off-topic discussions. I have no problems with splitting the mailing lists (they currently all come to me) but would be very opposed to moving them to news groups. However, a moderated news group that feeds both from and to the mail lists could be an advantagious setup. Thanks for your time, Dwarf -- aka Dale Scheetz Phone: 1 (904) 877-0257 Flexible Software Fax: NONE Black Creek Critters e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you don't see what you want, just ask --
Re: time to split the list?
On Sep 6, 8:31am, Thomas R Behrndt wrote: Subject: Re: time to split the list? : A very good idea. However, it might be a good idea to retain the name : debian-user as well, particularly since there is now a news group of : that name. Seconded. I like the name debian-user better than debian-nontechnical. The latter (IMHO) sounds a bit more as though we are trying to divide subscribers based on their knowledge level. -- Christopher R. Hertel -)- University of Minnesota [EMAIL PROTECTED] Networking and Telecommunications Services
Re: time to split the list?
Casper made some good points regarding debian-install. Let's start with debian-install and debian-user and see how it goes. I don't like debian-*technical. At the moment, the line between debian-user and a potential debian-devel is rather fuzzy in my mind and as such both would carry much of the same traffic. (Isn't there already a list for the debian developers for discussion of packaging and releases and such that wouldn't be of interest to the general public?) Bill Wohler [EMAIL PROTECTED] ph: +1-415-854-1857 fax: +1-415-854-3195 Say it with MIME. Maintainer of comp.mail.mh and news.software.nn FAQs. If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane.
Re: time to split the list?
I'm only subscribed to lists which do not carry more than 10 mails/week. This way my mailbox keeps mostly interesting stuff which I can oversee. It is a _must_ to convert high-traffic lists into newsgroups because: - one gets overwhelmed by the number of e-mails per day, - the disk gets clobbered by the size of the whole bunch (argh, I had 5 people sumitted to debian-users on my system), - newbies are not capable of (or have other problems than) setting up e-mail filters to sort the whole junk (hint: gnus is really cool), - high-traffic often means general interest (so why not make it more public?), - one actually pays for the whole junk to download it via modem, - one has to unsubscribe when going on holidays, On the other hand I see that + developers need to communicate more quickly than via news (takes up to 4 days) + it is much easier to create a mailing-list than a newsgroup So my suggestions are: o Tell the people about the newsgroup linux.debian.users as an alternative to the mailinglist when confirming their subscription. Ignoring the technical stuff is a special case of ignoring subjects of no personally interest and can be done with most news-readers. (Yes, you can do this easily with mailinglist by using gnus, too but thats the exception.) o make at least debian-users-digest for those people who want to keep on with the most interesting things o split the mailing-list to keep developers off from newbie-questions (they are likely to waste their time!) into debian-installation for questions not covered by the installation-manual :-) debian-newbies for those who have at least reached the login-prompt but aren't familiar with the system yet [no technical discussion allowed here; even such evil words as emacs, kernel and such are strictly forbidden] :-) debian-users the good old list; for long-time debian-users debian-towers high-level technical discussions o make a debian-all-digest from all that lists above -Winfried
Re: time to split the list?
A very good idea. However, it might be a good idea to retain the name debian-user as well, particularly since there is now a news group of that name. I would propose: debian-install debian-nontechnical debian-technical -- Thomas R Behrndt[EMAIL PROTECTED]
