Re: [debian-user] The List Standard
On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 20:01:37 -0600 Ted Hilts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: First: as I understand your guideline I am not to use the reply key but simply address my reply back to the list and it will be automatically added to the descending list. But have you not in your own email broken the chain of information because all I get when I read your email is to see your one extraction and I don't know On 09.04.07 21:10, David E. Fox wrote: Ted - please wrap your lines at 72 characters. It'll make your posts easier to read and reply to. I wonder why does Thunderbird not to wrap lined, if is uses format=flowed messages (which it does). It's probably bug in thunderbird, RFC 2646 (section 4.1) tells that text should be wrapped... (i re-wrapped Ted's text myself) Most (sane) mailers track by something called Reference Threading - so that a subject with the added text [debian-user] will still be able to be seen as part of the thread. If you are talking about merging messages with same subject (with additional Re:) to one thread, I have bad experience with it so I've turned this off. Third: Altering the original content or injecting statements adds more confusion than it saves especially if a lot of people are in disagreement with one another. Shouldn't happen much. For threads where there is a lot of disagreement (see the subjects sponge burning for instance) people haven't been altering the original content. That would be disastrous, and really open one up for a flame fest ;(. I agree with this. Stripping irelevant parts of original content is OK and case much less of confusion than reading long pages of irelevant text and searching for relevant parts there. -- Matus UHLAR - fantomas, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; http://www.fantomas.sk/ Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address. Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu. On the other hand, you have different fingers. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [debian-user] The List Standard
Andrew M.A. Cater [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [much generally good info snipped] that virtually everybody who posts to the list is also subscribed to the list, so that you don't normally need to cc. them. Not true. Anyone or anything can post to the list. Agreed that additional Cc:'s (unless specifically requested, and some are inclined to refuse even them) are not generally welcome. If you want to see a very good example of a mailing list with high signal/noise ratio, technical excellence and lots of interesting sidelights - the beowulf list (archives of www.beowulf.org) is always worth a browse. The major players there are real experts - even the off-topic stuff is interesting and thought provoking. Thx for the hint. Well worth a look. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. Spammers! http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling/emails.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [debian-user] The List Standard
Ted Hilts [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Chris Lale wrote: David E. Fox wrote: [...] Normally, one should just reply-to list, and it's considered bad form to mail the poster directly, unless asked to do so. In Thunderbird (Icedove), either click on Reply All, change debian-user@lists.debian.org from Cc: to To: and delete any other Cc: or To: lines; Took this advice. I will see how it turns out until I get that extension you mentioned. Also, I'm getting some static about my email wrapping. Not from me, at least for this post. It looks like you've nailed it. turned off. Some responders to my email seem to think I am advocating Top loading which I am not. I simply remarked that many in business s/Top loading/top posting/ insist on Top loading. I am doing some negotiations with a very large company and they put their reply at the very top of the original It's a different venue. They have their conventions, we have ours. Both are reasonable, within each venue. I hate having to do it that way at work, but that's how most of those at work want to do it. Don't like it? Find another employer. :-P Thanks, hope your recommendations work out. Here goes! This one looks fine to me. Welcome. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. Spammers! http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling/emails.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [debian-user] The List Standard
Douglas Allan Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not every one has threads. In a thread before yours this statement was made: AFAIK Thunderbird can thread even if the subject is changed. (It uses the 'In-Reply-To:' header) This person seems to imply that normally the subject is the key to establishing the descending threads. And if Thunderbird for example utilizes the REPLY TO header then that is at odds with what you seem to be saying in this guideline. So I am confused on this matter. I don't understand not everyone has threads. Its a standard part of email. Therefore any decent mail user agent should show threads. Try mutt. Even Outlook can thread (not sure what happens if subject gets changed though). Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [debian-user] The List Standard
On Mon, Apr 09, 2007 at 09:10:42PM -0700, David E. Fox wrote: On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 20:01:37 -0600 Ted Hilts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: First: as I understand your guideline I am not to use the reply key but simply address my reply back to the list and it will be automatically added to the descending list. But have you not in your own email broken the chain of information because all I get when I read your email is to see your one extraction and I don't know Ted - please wrap your lines at 72 characters. It'll make your posts easier to read and reply to. Most (sane) mailers track by something called Reference Threading - so that a subject with the added text [debian-user] will still be able to be seen as part of the thread. Normally, one should just reply-to list, and it's considered bad form to mail the poster directly, unless asked to do so. Second: Also, when one person removes content they think is irrelevant but the original author might think otherwise then how does one find that original information? By using the reference threads, or maybe archives if the original post is long gone. That's usually not going to be the case, unless the old post is (ahem) old. All the replies should be visible as one thread that you and others can navigate through in order to form the big picture. Third: Altering the original content or injecting statements adds more confusion than it saves especially if a lot of people are in disagreement with one another. Shouldn't happen much. For threads where there is a lot of disagreement (see the subjects sponge burning for instance) people haven't been altering the original content. That would be disastrous, and really open one up for a flame fest ;(. Ted, I've deliberately kept the above in one piece, so you can see how it's supposed to come out. The convention is to wrap at 70-72 characters because screens often have an 80 character limit and your mailer may use or some such to indicate replies and flow of the conversation. If you want to reply to one point, then it's also quite often conventional to do something like snipped - lots of useful stuff about foo Now about $bar - what do you think. or even - 8X -- [which looks like scissors on a dotted line] Now about $bar - what do you think? It's always worth reading a thread and thinking over a reply carefully: the convention is to maintain the style such that you can read consecutively. Once you're part way through a thread, this should be automatically obvious. So, something like the following: Ted said in reply to Andy $Foo rocks - Linux does infinite loops in five seconds now. Solaris has really good performance now that you can use feature $bar No, neither of you has noticed that AIX trumps them all with feature $baz. We're using it here ... and to try to keep one line at the end to indicate that Ted Andy Foobar This list is fairly strict about netiquette: the one canonical rule is that virtually everybody who posts to the list is also subscribed to the list, so that you don't normally need to cc. them. If you want to see a very good example of a mailing list with high signal/noise ratio,technical excellence and lots of interesting sidelights - the beowulf list (archives of www.beowulf.org) is always worth a browse. The major players there are real experts - even the off-topic stuff is interesting and thought provoking. Andy Thanks -- Ted David E. Fox -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [debian-user] The List Standard
Ted Hilts wrote: [...] Not every one has threads. You say that you are using Thunderbird (Icedove). You can use the View menu to view your mail in threaded format: View - Sort by - Threaded [...] -- Chris. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [debian-user] The List Standard
David E. Fox wrote: [...] Normally, one should just reply-to list, and it's considered bad form to mail the poster directly, unless asked to do so. In Thunderbird (Icedove), either click on Reply All, change debian-user@lists.debian.org from Cc: to To: and delete any other Cc: or To: lines; or install the Reply To List extension [1] and use Ctrl-I to initiate a reply. [...] [1] http://open.nit.ca/wiki/?ReplyToListThunderbirdExtension Hope that's useful. -- Chris. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [debian-user] The List Standard
Chris Lale wrote: David E. Fox wrote: [...] Normally, one should just reply-to list, and it's considered bad form to mail the poster directly, unless asked to do so. In Thunderbird (Icedove), either click on Reply All, change debian-user@lists.debian.org from Cc: to To: and delete any other Cc: or To: lines; Took this advice. I will see how it turns out until I get that extension you mentioned. Also, I'm getting some static about my email wrapping. I've got Thunderbird (ToolsOptionsWrapping) set to to 72 which is the default standard. But I'm willing to change it to something else. What would that be? Also, I am here using an embedded comment to your embedded comment as most list members seem to want to do it that way. I have been using threads for a while but when I first came to the list the threads were turned off. Some responders to my email seem to think I am advocating Top loading which I am not. I simply remarked that many in business insist on Top loading. I am doing some negotiations with a very large company and they put their reply at the very top of the original message. Also, when I worked for a large Telco they did the same thing. It was only after getting involved with Linux email issues that I even realized there were other and better ways of transmitting email messages. Thanks, hope your recommendations work out. Here goes! or install the Reply To List extension [1] and use Ctrl-I to initiate a reply. [...] [1] http://open.nit.ca/wiki/?ReplyToListThunderbirdExtension Hope that's useful. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [debian-user] The List Standard
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Andrei Popescu wrote: Even Outlook can thread (not sure what happens if subject gets changed though). It's not true threading, though - it's lumping by subject line. At least, that's what it did when I used it a few years ago - maybe the latest version is better (but I'm not holding my breath...). - -- Jim Hyslop Dreampossible: Better software. Simply. http://www.dreampossible.ca Consulting * Mentoring * Training in C/C++ * OOD * SW Development Practices * Version Management -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGG/uHLdDyDwyJw+MRAsvFAKC7pz46pUyf5Kz8VSLDOZOXASUkCgCg2hkl 3IWW2+xrKTprSTU5bKVmnRI= =92/C -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [debian-user] The List Standard
Ted Hilts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My browser for mail is Thunderbird and Seamonkey I use for browsing. Thunderbird runs with threads beginning with the first issue ins the subject line and then all successive emails related are tied together in a descending fashion. I take this to mean that one can first see the first issue and follow downwards at other inputs as long as the subject remains the same. However, most businesses do just the AFAIK Thunderbird can thread even if the subject is changed. (It uses the 'In-Reply-To:' header) opposite either leaving off the original or piling their reply in an ascending fashion. This creates a problem for me because my mail Bleah! client wants me to put the next message at the bottom and positions the cursor to this will happen. Also, there are no upward threading that I know of. But a lot of people expect a reply at the top. What You could try to use threading and sorting by descending date. I have begun to do is tell them to go to the bottom to get at my reply so they can first see what they have previously said which they often forget or get it wrong. However, I also notice that many people in the list snip out stuff so that when the next person responds it is possible they do not have the same context and the same information and so go off in a different direction. The netiquette is to snip *irrelevant* stuff. But this is pretty subjective. Have I got it all wrong or are there conventions we should all be observing. I usually respond to a part of the original not by embedding remarks into the original email (as some do) but by copying the part down to the bottom quoted and followed by my email suggestion that way the original and all following emails that preceded mine are preserved. I have observed conflicts over this I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that, but maybe you should read this: http://learn.to/quote (go to This Text in English) and more general http://www.dtcc.edu/cs/rfc1855.html Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [debian-user] The List Standard
On Mon, Apr 09, 2007 at 08:01:37PM -0600, Ted Hilts wrote: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/kk288/du-guidelines.html This helps a lot but I have a few issues with a couple of the statements. First: as I understand your guideline I am not to use the reply key but simply address my reply back to the list and it will be automatically added to the descending list. But have you not in your own email broken the chain of information because all I get when I read your email is to see your one extraction and I don't know from that who said what or even the initial subject content. It up to each responder to snip bits that aren't relavent to their reply. Not every one has threads. In a thread before yours this statement was made: AFAIK Thunderbird can thread even if the subject is changed. (It uses the 'In-Reply-To:' header) This person seems to imply that normally the subject is the key to establishing the descending threads. And if Thunderbird for example utilizes the REPLY TO header then that is at odds with what you seem to be saying in this guideline. So I am confused on this matter. I don't understand not everyone has threads. Its a standard part of email. Therefore any decent mail user agent should show threads. Try mutt. Also my original subject had [debian-user] as the prefix yet Thunderbird accepted Re: The list Standard. Second: Also, when one person removes content they think is irrelevant but the original author might think otherwise then how does one find that original information? If need be, with the archives. If you're really wanting to follow a thread, don't delete it out of your own mailbox or save it to its own mailbox. Third: Altering the original content or injecting statements adds more confusion than it saves especially if a lot of people are in disagreement with one another. Nevertheless, it is how it is done on this list. Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [debian-user] The List Standard
On Mon, 09 Apr 2007 20:01:37 -0600 Ted Hilts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: First: as I understand your guideline I am not to use the reply key but simply address my reply back to the list and it will be automatically added to the descending list. But have you not in your own email broken the chain of information because all I get when I read your email is to see your one extraction and I don't know Ted - please wrap your lines at 72 characters. It'll make your posts easier to read and reply to. Most (sane) mailers track by something called Reference Threading - so that a subject with the added text [debian-user] will still be able to be seen as part of the thread. Normally, one should just reply-to list, and it's considered bad form to mail the poster directly, unless asked to do so. Second: Also, when one person removes content they think is irrelevant but the original author might think otherwise then how does one find that original information? By using the reference threads, or maybe archives if the original post is long gone. That's usually not going to be the case, unless the old post is (ahem) old. All the replies should be visible as one thread that you and others can navigate through in order to form the big picture. Third: Altering the original content or injecting statements adds more confusion than it saves especially if a lot of people are in disagreement with one another. Shouldn't happen much. For threads where there is a lot of disagreement (see the subjects sponge burning for instance) people haven't been altering the original content. That would be disastrous, and really open one up for a flame fest ;(. Thanks -- Ted -- David E. Fox Thanks for letting me [EMAIL PROTECTED]change magnetic patterns [EMAIL PROTECTED] on your hard disk. --- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
