Re: Debian on flash a store.
On 03/15/18 12:24, Pascal Hambourg wrote: Le 15/03/2018 à 06:01, David Christensen a écrit : 2. Instead of RAID1, use a checksumming file system (btrfs), take images periodically, put key configuration files into a version control system, and backup data daily. This is what I do for all my system drives. All these techniques are backup. RAID does not have the same purpose. RAID (with redundancy) is designed to provide availability. Let me add that mine is a SOHO network that does not require 24x7 uptime. And, since switching to solid-state system drives, I have yet to experience a system drive hardware failure. My most common failure mode is instability due to system administration mistakes and root software development bugs. RAID1 won't help me; recovering from an earlier known-good image will. Virtual machine snapshots make recovery even easier. If/when the Debian Installer supports ZFS boot and encrypted root, I can install ZFS snapshotting software and will have yet another option. David
Re: Debian on flash a store.
Le 15/03/2018 à 06:01, David Christensen a écrit : I also thought about two USB flash drives and RAID: 1. Instead of RAID0, get a PATA or SATA SSD (or DOM). Used drives can be found on eBay for cheap, especially SATA I or II. RAID 0 with USB flash drives ? You like to live dangerously. 2. Instead of RAID1, use a checksumming file system (btrfs), take images periodically, put key configuration files into a version control system, and backup data daily. This is what I do for all my system drives. All these techniques are backup. RAID does not have the same purpose. RAID (with redundancy) is designed to provide availability.
Re: Debian on flash a store.
On Thu, 2018-03-15 at 19:33 +1300, Richard Hector wrote: > On 15/03/18 18:01, David Christensen wrote: > > That said, why do you have storage in a thin client? I thought the idea > > is to boot the clients over the network, run from RAM, and have the > > server do most of the work (?). > > They were intended as thin clients - I'm not using them as such. I just > use them as cheap machines with mimimal power consumption, that I can > leave running even when more powerful machines are shut down. My openvpn > endpoint is one such case (it also runs a DNS server). > > I don't need much storage, but I want it to be fairly reliable, and be > sure I can replace it quickly if required. Importing a specialist DOM > from overseas is not quick; buying a usb stick (from the supermarket or > service station if need be) is :-) > > These things only cost me NZ$20 each (for 5) - and an added bonus is > that the old atom (N280) cpu is not vulnerable to meltdown :-) > > Richard > I also use thin clients as Richard does. Some I've attached an SSD via the USB port and that works well. I've got 2 others that I've used the internal memory as storage. The internal memory originally held the boot loader to boot from a server. The size is 2Gbits so it's big enough for Debian for Alix or dare I say it here XP. Another has a flash memory stick, again with Debian for Alix on it. David.
Re: Debian on flash a store.
On 15/03/18 18:01, David Christensen wrote: > That said, why do you have storage in a thin client? I thought the idea > is to boot the clients over the network, run from RAM, and have the > server do most of the work (?). They were intended as thin clients - I'm not using them as such. I just use them as cheap machines with mimimal power consumption, that I can leave running even when more powerful machines are shut down. My openvpn endpoint is one such case (it also runs a DNS server). I don't need much storage, but I want it to be fairly reliable, and be sure I can replace it quickly if required. Importing a specialist DOM from overseas is not quick; buying a usb stick (from the supermarket or service station if need be) is :-) These things only cost me NZ$20 each (for 5) - and an added bonus is that the old atom (N280) cpu is not vulnerable to meltdown :-) Richard signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Debian on flash a store.
On 03/14/18 20:17, Richard Hector wrote: On 15/03/18 13:11, David Christensen wrote: On 03/14/18 00:28, Richard Hector wrote: On 14/03/18 15:35, David Christensen wrote: On 03/13/18 17:00, Richard Hector wrote: Apologies for the diversion - does anyone know if there are USB flash drives that _are_ built for full-time use, as a system disk? I've got some old thin clients that could do with storage upgrades that are a bit easier to come by than the weird (PATA?) flash modules they come with. Obviously I could just hook up an external USB ssd, but I'd like to keep the small form factor if I can - then they can go inside the case. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=disk+on+module&t=ffsb&ia=web http://www.memorydepot.com/ssd_diskonmodule.html Interesting, thanks - it appears that I could replace the existing module after all - and possibly add a SATA one, depending on which way round they are. I'm not entirely sure about the power situation though - there seem to be multiple ways of getting power through the data port; are they all backwards compatible? Does my system need to support it explicitly, or will any old sata port work? I see there are USB DOMs as well, but most/many of them want an internal header rather than a type A socket, which is all I have. And some of them say they're USB 3, backward compatible with USB 2 ... I'm not sure which of my ports are what standard; some of them may even be 1 ... Almost none of these seem to be available locally in New Zealand though, so I'd have to import something, which is a bit more of a hassle. There are many disk-on-module form (DOM) factors -- some are generic/ standard form factors and others are vendor/ model specific. If your thin clients already have PATA DOM's, look up the make/ model and purchase compatible replacement/ upgrade parts. I have never seen a USB 1 port. Most pre-USB 2.0 stuff is USB 1.1. Fair call - I should have said 1.x or something. :-) I ran SanDisk Ultra Fit USB 3.0 16 GB flash drives as poor-man's SSD system drives for several years, connected to motherboard type A USB 3.0, 2.0, and 1.1 ports. I booted the Debian Installer on CD and installed to the USB drive just like any other drive. Reads were noticeably faster than HDD's, but moderate to heavy writes caused GUI desktops to become choppy. I still keep two for diagnostic and rescue use -- one with Debian i386 and the other with Debian amd64. I bought them from Amazon, but some retailers might carry them. Ordinary usb flash drives are easy enough to get, and cheap. I should probably just try those (planning on 2 in raid). I'm not using them for anything GUI; the one I have running atm is an openvpn endpoint. There are many Sandisk and other options - I guess my main consideration is something slim enough that I can fit two in adjacent ports. The SanDisk Ultra Fits are very compact. Two will fit in the stacked dual USB port connectors found on my Intel motherboards, or in the side-by-side ports on my Dell laptop. They stick out only about 1/4". If anything, it can be hard to grab when connected to a motherboard with several other things connected. I also thought about two USB flash drives and RAID: 1. Instead of RAID0, get a PATA or SATA SSD (or DOM). Used drives can be found on eBay for cheap, especially SATA I or II. 2. Instead of RAID1, use a checksumming file system (btrfs), take images periodically, put key configuration files into a version control system, and backup data daily. This is what I do for all my system drives. That said, why do you have storage in a thin client? I thought the idea is to boot the clients over the network, run from RAM, and have the server do most of the work (?). David
Re: Debian on flash a store.
On 15/03/18 13:11, David Christensen wrote: > On 03/14/18 00:28, Richard Hector wrote: >> On 14/03/18 15:35, David Christensen wrote: >>> On 03/13/18 17:00, Richard Hector wrote: Apologies for the diversion - does anyone know if there are USB flash drives that _are_ built for full-time use, as a system disk? I've got some old thin clients that could do with storage upgrades that are a bit easier to come by than the weird (PATA?) flash modules they come with. Obviously I could just hook up an external USB ssd, but I'd like to keep the small form factor if I can - then they can go inside the case. >>> >>> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=disk+on+module&t=ffsb&ia=web >>> >>> >>> http://www.memorydepot.com/ssd_diskonmodule.html >> >> Interesting, thanks - it appears that I could replace the existing >> module after all - and possibly add a SATA one, depending on which way >> round they are. I'm not entirely sure about the power situation though - >> there seem to be multiple ways of getting power through the data port; >> are they all backwards compatible? Does my system need to support it >> explicitly, or will any old sata port work? >> >> I see there are USB DOMs as well, but most/many of them want an internal >> header rather than a type A socket, which is all I have. And some of >> them say they're USB 3, backward compatible with USB 2 ... I'm not sure >> which of my ports are what standard; some of them may even be 1 ... >> >> Almost none of these seem to be available locally in New Zealand though, >> so I'd have to import something, which is a bit more of a hassle. > > There are many disk-on-module form (DOM) factors -- some are generic/ > standard form factors and others are vendor/ model specific. If your > thin clients already have PATA DOM's, look up the make/ model and > purchase compatible replacement/ upgrade parts. > > > I have never seen a USB 1 port. Most pre-USB 2.0 stuff is USB 1.1. Fair call - I should have said 1.x or something. :-) > I ran SanDisk Ultra Fit USB 3.0 16 GB flash drives as poor-man's SSD > system drives for several years, connected to motherboard type A USB > 3.0, 2.0, and 1.1 ports. I booted the Debian Installer on CD and > installed to the USB drive just like any other drive. Reads were > noticeably faster than HDD's, but moderate to heavy writes caused GUI > desktops to become choppy. I still keep two for diagnostic and rescue > use -- one with Debian i386 and the other with Debian amd64. I bought > them from Amazon, but some retailers might carry them. Ordinary usb flash drives are easy enough to get, and cheap. I should probably just try those (planning on 2 in raid). I'm not using them for anything GUI; the one I have running atm is an openvpn endpoint. There are many Sandisk and other options - I guess my main consideration is something slim enough that I can fit two in adjacent ports. Thanks, Richard signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Debian on flash a store.
On 03/14/18 00:28, Richard Hector wrote: On 14/03/18 15:35, David Christensen wrote: On 03/13/18 17:00, Richard Hector wrote: Apologies for the diversion - does anyone know if there are USB flash drives that _are_ built for full-time use, as a system disk? I've got some old thin clients that could do with storage upgrades that are a bit easier to come by than the weird (PATA?) flash modules they come with. Obviously I could just hook up an external USB ssd, but I'd like to keep the small form factor if I can - then they can go inside the case. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=disk+on+module&t=ffsb&ia=web http://www.memorydepot.com/ssd_diskonmodule.html Interesting, thanks - it appears that I could replace the existing module after all - and possibly add a SATA one, depending on which way round they are. I'm not entirely sure about the power situation though - there seem to be multiple ways of getting power through the data port; are they all backwards compatible? Does my system need to support it explicitly, or will any old sata port work? I see there are USB DOMs as well, but most/many of them want an internal header rather than a type A socket, which is all I have. And some of them say they're USB 3, backward compatible with USB 2 ... I'm not sure which of my ports are what standard; some of them may even be 1 ... Almost none of these seem to be available locally in New Zealand though, so I'd have to import something, which is a bit more of a hassle. There are many disk-on-module form (DOM) factors -- some are generic/ standard form factors and others are vendor/ model specific. If your thin clients already have PATA DOM's, look up the make/ model and purchase compatible replacement/ upgrade parts. I have never seen a USB 1 port. Most pre-USB 2.0 stuff is USB 1.1. I ran SanDisk Ultra Fit USB 3.0 16 GB flash drives as poor-man's SSD system drives for several years, connected to motherboard type A USB 3.0, 2.0, and 1.1 ports. I booted the Debian Installer on CD and installed to the USB drive just like any other drive. Reads were noticeably faster than HDD's, but moderate to heavy writes caused GUI desktops to become choppy. I still keep two for diagnostic and rescue use -- one with Debian i386 and the other with Debian amd64. I bought them from Amazon, but some retailers might carry them. David
Re: Debian on flash a store.
On 14/03/18 15:35, David Christensen wrote: > On 03/13/18 17:00, Richard Hector wrote: >> Apologies for the diversion - does anyone know if there are USB flash >> drives that _are_ built for full-time use, as a system disk? >> >> I've got some old thin clients that could do with storage upgrades that >> are a bit easier to come by than the weird (PATA?) flash modules they >> come with. Obviously I could just hook up an external USB ssd, but I'd >> like to keep the small form factor if I can - then they can go inside >> the case. > > https://duckduckgo.com/?q=disk+on+module&t=ffsb&ia=web > > > http://www.memorydepot.com/ssd_diskonmodule.html Interesting, thanks - it appears that I could replace the existing module after all - and possibly add a SATA one, depending on which way round they are. I'm not entirely sure about the power situation though - there seem to be multiple ways of getting power through the data port; are they all backwards compatible? Does my system need to support it explicitly, or will any old sata port work? I see there are USB DOMs as well, but most/many of them want an internal header rather than a type A socket, which is all I have. And some of them say they're USB 3, backward compatible with USB 2 ... I'm not sure which of my ports are what standard; some of them may even be 1 ... Almost none of these seem to be available locally in New Zealand though, so I'd have to import something, which is a bit more of a hassle. Cheers, Richard signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Debian on flash a store.
I've found debian to be quit handy on flash store. On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 10:35 PM, David Christensen < dpchr...@holgerdanske.com> wrote: > On 03/13/18 17:00, Richard Hector wrote: > >> Apologies for the diversion - does anyone know if there are USB flash >> drives that _are_ built for full-time use, as a system disk? >> >> I've got some old thin clients that could do with storage upgrades that >> are a bit easier to come by than the weird (PATA?) flash modules they >> come with. Obviously I could just hook up an external USB ssd, but I'd >> like to keep the small form factor if I can - then they can go inside >> the case. >> > > https://duckduckgo.com/?q=disk+on+module&t=ffsb&ia=web > > > http://www.memorydepot.com/ssd_diskonmodule.html > > > David > >
Re: Debian on flash a store.
On 03/13/18 17:00, Richard Hector wrote: Apologies for the diversion - does anyone know if there are USB flash drives that _are_ built for full-time use, as a system disk? I've got some old thin clients that could do with storage upgrades that are a bit easier to come by than the weird (PATA?) flash modules they come with. Obviously I could just hook up an external USB ssd, but I'd like to keep the small form factor if I can - then they can go inside the case. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=disk+on+module&t=ffsb&ia=web http://www.memorydepot.com/ssd_diskonmodule.html David
Re: Debian on flash a store.
On 14/03/18 09:58, Pascal Hambourg wrote: > USB drives and SD cards are very different from SSDs. You cannot use > them in the same way. AFAIK, USB drives and SD cards do not support > TRIM/discard. Apologies for the diversion - does anyone know if there are USB flash drives that _are_ built for full-time use, as a system disk? I've got some old thin clients that could do with storage upgrades that are a bit easier to come by than the weird (PATA?) flash modules they come with. Obviously I could just hook up an external USB ssd, but I'd like to keep the small form factor if I can - then they can go inside the case. Cheers, Richard signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Debian on flash a store.
Le 13/03/2018 à 18:26, pe...@easthope.ca a écrit : https://wiki.debian.org/RunningOnFlash has some discussion and tips about basing the system in a flash store. USB drives and SD cards are very different from SSDs. You cannot use them in the same way. AFAIK, USB drives and SD cards do not support TRIM/discard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ext2 states "ext2 is still the filesystem of choice for flash-based storage media ... because its lack of a journal increases performance and minimizes the number of writes, ... However, recent Linux kernels support a journal-less mode of ext4 which provides benefits not found with ext2." Oddly, the Debian wiki article has no mention of journaling. Ext2 is obsolete. If you don't want journalling, just use ext4 with journalling turned off. I didn't know this was a recent feature. Also, I am surprised that these articles do not mention "flash friendly" log-structured filesystems such as F2FS or NILFS2. They may need to be updated.
