Re: HURD and Linux on same partition
rhkra...@gmail.com wrote: >On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 05:58:51 PM deloptes wrote: >> Marek Mosiewicz wrote: >> > |Just asked if it is technically possible. Application do not call >> > >> > kernel directly and they are using glibc library for example. I'm just >> > curios how many libraries are there for abstracting kernel and if it is >> > possible in future release to have common libraries which base on this >> > abstraction. I'm just curios so I ask. >> >> obviously you have no idea, so give it up, please! > >Well, I'm not the OP, but I am somewhat interested more out of curiosity than >any real intent to try the HURD. > >I suspect the following: > > * Libraries (and other software) in source form might be valid / work for >either kernel, but they have to be compiled for the specific kernel they are >to >be used on, and once in compiled / binary form, they won't work on the other >kernel. Correct. > * Is there any way to have libraries compiled for both kernels on the same >partition -- well, I suppose so (different directories, or maybe even named >differently?), but the complexity and potential for confusion just wouldn't >seem worth it to me -- what would be the reason to do that? Yes, it should work. With multi-arch in Debian (which moves most libraries to specific architecture and kernel specific paths), the *only* thing that might break for most binaries would be the path to the dynamic loader, ld.so. For most recent systems they've been deliberately specified to be different, so you can easily have co-existing systems installed. See https://sourceware.org/glibc/wiki/ABIList or https://wiki.linaro.org/RikuVoipio/LdSoTable for an overview of those. Some common examples: arm64/lib/ld-linux-aarch64.so.1 hurd /lib/ld.so i386 /lib/ld-linux.so.2 x86_64 /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 so they're compatible. As an example of this working, the very machine I'm using to send this message is arm64 natively, but it's also set up with a small i386 installation on the same rootfs using multi-arch so I can also still run some i386 binaries using qemu when needed. It used to be an x86 machine, but I've recently migrated to new hardware. For cross-kernel setups like Linux and Hurd, you might find other problems like clashing configurations in /etc. But it's not insurmountable... -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com "Further comment on how I feel about IBM will appear once I've worked out whether they're being malicious or incompetent. Capital letters are forecast." Matthew Garrett, http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjg59/30675.html
Re: HURD and Linux on same partition
I think that the Hurd has to boot from its own partition. You probably could share some binaries with Linux, but why? It would just complicate maintenance for both systems. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA
Re: HURD and Linux on same partition
Hmm, originally sent my reply only to deloptes. On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 05:58:51 PM deloptes wrote: > Marek Mosiewicz wrote: > > |Just asked if it is technically possible. Application do not call > > > > kernel directly and they are using glibc library for example. I'm just > > curios how many libraries are there for abstracting kernel and if it is > > possible in future release to have common libraries which base on this > > abstraction. I'm just curios so I ask. > > obviously you have no idea, so give it up, please! Well, I'm not the OP, but I am somewhat interested more out of curiosity than any real intent to try the HURD. I suspect the following: * Libraries (and other software) in source form might be valid / work for either kernel, but they have to be compiled for the specific kernel they are to be used on, and once in compiled / binary form, they won't work on the other kernel. * Is there any way to have libraries compiled for both kernels on the same partition -- well, I suppose so (different directories, or maybe even named differently?), but the complexity and potential for confusion just wouldn't seem worth it to me -- what would be the reason to do that? On separate partitions, you could boot to a specific kernel (well, I hope you know what I'm trying to say), and then fstab could be adjusted to mount the appropriate partitions with the binaries for that kernel / OS. If anybody can correct / clarify my suspicions, I would be interested. Thanks!
Re: HURD and Linux on same partition
Marek Mosiewicz wrote: > |Just asked if it is technically possible. Application do not call > kernel directly and they are using glibc library for example. I'm just > curios how many libraries are there for abstracting kernel and if it is > possible in future release to have common libraries which base on this > abstraction. I'm just curios so I ask. Hi Marek, obviously you have no idea, so give it up, please! regards
Re: HURD and Linux on same partition
W dniu 10.12.2018, pon o godzinie 19∶47 -0200, użytkownik Francisco M Neto napisał: > Porting is not the same as installing on the same filesystem. Each > version of Debian you mentioned needs its own filesystem to work > with. > Again, this is NOT a simple matter of just using the same files with > a > different kernel! The infrastructure of each OS is fundamentally > different. You NEED to use a different partition for each of them. |Just asked if it is technically possible. Application do not call kernel directly and they are using glibc library for example. I'm just curios how many libraries are there for abstracting kernel and if it is possible in future release to have common libraries which base on this abstraction. I'm just curios so I ask. > > Good luck. > > On Mon, 2018-12-10 at 22:12 +0100, Marek Mosiewicz wrote: > > W dniu 10.12.2018, pon o godzinie 13∶49 -0600, użytkownik John > > Hasler > > napisał: > > > Hurd differs from Linux as much as Linux differs from Windows > > > (maybe > > > more). Put it on a seperate partition. > > > > That is probably best to do but I do not agree that difference is > > so > > big. There is Debian BSD, Debian Linux and Debian HURD and they all > > base on same user space applications. > > > > > > > From Debian Hurd page > > > https://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/index.en.html : > > > > " Porting > > > > Porting packages is quite trivial most of the time, there are just > > a > > couple of traps that they can fall into, a list of common issues is > > available." > >
Re: HURD and Linux on same partition
Porting is not the same as installing on the same filesystem. Each version of Debian you mentioned needs its own filesystem to work with. Again, this is NOT a simple matter of just using the same files with a different kernel! The infrastructure of each OS is fundamentally different. You NEED to use a different partition for each of them. Good luck. On Mon, 2018-12-10 at 22:12 +0100, Marek Mosiewicz wrote: > W dniu 10.12.2018, pon o godzinie 13∶49 -0600, użytkownik John Hasler > napisał: > > Hurd differs from Linux as much as Linux differs from Windows > > (maybe > > more). Put it on a seperate partition. > That is probably best to do but I do not agree that difference is so > big. There is Debian BSD, Debian Linux and Debian HURD and they all > base on same user space applications. > > > > From Debian Hurd page > > https://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/index.en.html : > " Porting > > Porting packages is quite trivial most of the time, there are just a > couple of traps that they can fall into, a list of common issues is > available." > signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: HURD and Linux on same partition
W dniu 10.12.2018, pon o godzinie 13∶49 -0600, użytkownik John Hasler napisał: > Hurd differs from Linux as much as Linux differs from Windows (maybe > more). Put it on a seperate partition. That is probably best to do but I do not agree that difference is so big. There is Debian BSD, Debian Linux and Debian HURD and they all base on same user space applications. >From Debian Hurd page https://www.debian.org/ports/hurd/index.en.html : " Porting Porting packages is quite trivial most of the time, there are just a couple of traps that they can fall into, a list of common issues is available."
Re: HURD and Linux on same partition
Hurd differs from Linux as much as Linux differs from Windows (maybe more). Put it on a seperate partition. -- John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com Elmwood, WI USA
Re: HURD and Linux on same partition
W dniu 10.12.2018, pon o godzinie 15∶11 -0200, użytkownik Francisco M Neto napisał: > Either create a virtual machine (VirtualBox, qemu, etc) or find some > space for a new partition. GNU/Hurd is an entirely different > operating > system and it will ruin you Debian installation if you try to install > it in the same partition. I do not care ruining my system as I do data backup. Anyway it seems for me to be technically possible to run both on same partition Virtual machine will not test hardware, so maybe I will create new partition. > My 2¢. > > []'s, > --Francisco > > On Mon, 2018-12-10 at 16:05 +0100, Marek Mosiewicz wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I'm curios about HURD. I understand that it is already available in > > sid. Is there any possibility to install it side by side with linux > > kernel and having both options in GRUB ? > > > > Are all libraries separate for HURD or just gnu abstraction layer ? > > > > -- > > Gaining from harming others is strictly prohibited. > > > > Marek Mosiewicz > > > >
Re: HURD and Linux on same partition
I don't think it's just a matter of sharing libraries and system files. This is not just another kernel version, it's an entirely different kernel. A backup might not be enough, and even if it is, keep in mind that every time you decide to switch from Hurd to Linux or vice-versa you will need to restore a backup, which means an intermediate boot to restore the backup before you can boot your system again. --Francisco On Mon, 2018-12-10 at 19:36 +0100, Marek Mosiewicz wrote: > W dniu 10.12.2018, pon o godzinie 15∶11 -0200, użytkownik Francisco M > Neto napisał: > > Either create a virtual machine (VirtualBox, qemu, etc) or find > > some > > space for a new partition. GNU/Hurd is an entirely different > > operating > > system and it will ruin you Debian installation if you try to > > install > > it in the same partition. > I do not care ruining my system as I do data backup. Anyway it seems > for me to be technically possible to run both on same partition > Virtual machine will not test hardware, so maybe I will create new > partition. > > > > My 2¢. > > > > []'s, > > --Francisco > > > > On Mon, 2018-12-10 at 16:05 +0100, Marek Mosiewicz wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > I'm curios about HURD. I understand that it is already available > > > in > > > sid. Is there any possibility to install it side by side with > > > linux > > > kernel and having both options in GRUB ? > > > > > > Are all libraries separate for HURD or just gnu abstraction layer > > > ? > > > > > > -- > > > Gaining from harming others is strictly prohibited. > > > > > > Marek Mosiewicz > > >
Re: HURD and Linux on same partition
Either create a virtual machine (VirtualBox, qemu, etc) or find some space for a new partition. GNU/Hurd is an entirely different operating system and it will ruin you Debian installation if you try to install it in the same partition. My 2¢. []'s, --Francisco On Mon, 2018-12-10 at 16:05 +0100, Marek Mosiewicz wrote: > Hi, > > I'm curios about HURD. I understand that it is already available in > sid. Is there any possibility to install it side by side with linux > kernel and having both options in GRUB ? > > Are all libraries separate for HURD or just gnu abstraction layer ? > > -- > Gaining from harming others is strictly prohibited. > > Marek Mosiewicz >
