Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer
* Ron [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004-03-12 15:53]: Furthermore, I'd like to hear why you think that I am not honest and enthusiastic, and ideally I'd like to see some concrete examples. Eliza Why is it that you think I said *you* were not he? /Eliza (and I don't expect you to answer that here, but I do hope you'll think about it) Because you explictly said so, unless I've mistaken your mail. I was surprised by this (because I think I'm honest and enthusiastic) which is why I asked. You wrote: | My concern is that we find a DPL who is *honest* and *enthusiastic* | about the future they see for the project and who is prepared to share | that vision unabashedly with anyone who will listen. | What I'm seeing (again) from the two mainstream candidates, is that they | have their own personal reasons for wanting to be DPL, and that they are | prepared to talk up whatever other issues they think will win them | support to that end. This seems to suggests that you think both Branden and I are dishonest and not enthusiastic. The only 'example' I can hold you to is your own promises. It has been claimed that you were in fact something of a Do Nothing DPL -- my own personal experience with you has indeed shown that you've been quite low key compared to what I was led to expect at the last election. The kind of tasks I carry out are summarized for example in http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2003/debian-devel-announce-200310/msg00014.html I think they are all very important, and while you may often not notice those changes, they are vital in order to ensure that the project is running smoothly. -- Martin Michlmayr [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer
On Fri, Mar 12, 2004 at 03:53:00PM +1030, Ron wrote: On Thu, Mar 11, 2004 at 06:25:47PM +, Martin Michlmayr wrote: Furthermore, I'd like to hear why you think that I am not honest and enthusiastic, and ideally I'd like to see some concrete examples. The only 'example' I can hold you to is your own promises. It has been claimed that you were in fact something of a Do Nothing DPL -- Uhm, care to back this up? It's certainly not how I experienced the last year. * Martin actively worked on improving the mips/mipsel/arm autobuilders situation by organizing hardware and coordinating with the admins[1][2] * He played an excellent role in toning down and moderating the evil elmo/buildd/nm flamewar through thoughtful, calming mails. Both Ingo Juergensmann and Goswin Brederlow acknowledged that he was responsive and trying to solve their 'issues'. * He coordinated internally with all the important infrastructure groups, resulting in new listmasters, a new security officer and a much smoother processing of NM applicants. * One of the first visible things he did was defending our reputation when 'Trusted Debian' was announced. By talking to them he made them change their name to 'Adamantix' and also setup a Trademark committee [3] * In order to settle the GFDL license problems, he supported the GDL commitee doing direct negotiations with the FSF. He also talked to Bradley Kuhn directly on how to solve this issue. * He made it possible for some developers to better work on the critical things they do for Debian, like organizing better hardware for them or arrange for real-life meetings. These are only the major things I remember from last year, taken from all areas a DPL should be active in, IMHO (internal communication, internal coordination, external representation, external cooperation). If you google for 'site:lists.debian.org From: Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project Leader', you can get all the small bits he did internally - I'm sure he also wrote loads of DPL mail to external parties. Apart from that, I see his enthusiasm and dedication for the project and his job as leader daily on the mailing-lists and on irc. If, as both you and Branden assert in your campaigning, things are mostly ok, but as always, can be improved -- and if the people in a position to make those improvements are already aware of and working on the issues, then why is it that we need, or would even want, anything other than a Do Nothing DPL, that justs gets on with their own part of that, and keeps everybody smiling for most of the rest of the time? IMO, the project would get along fine without a DPL or a 'do nothing DPL'. But as the last year has shown, it will be much better off with an DPL who actively tries to resolve issues and faciliate the work of others. cheers, Michael -- [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-0402/msg00463.html [2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-0311/msg01269.html [3] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project-0309/msg4.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer
On Thu, Mar 11, 2004 at 06:25:47PM +, Martin Michlmayr wrote: * Ron [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004-03-11 15:24]: My concern is that we find a DPL who is *honest* and *enthusiastic* about the future they see for the project and who is prepared to share that vision unabashedly with anyone who will listen. What I'm seeing (again) from the two mainstream candidates, is that they have their own personal reasons for wanting to be DPL, and that they are prepared to talk up whatever other issues they think will win them support to that end. I'd be interested in hearing what you think my personal reasons are for running for DPL. Then next time you are anywhere near Adelaide, give me a call, and we can talk about it over some beers. In the meantime, I think the bandwidth on -vote (which you cc'd) could be better put to use hearing them from you. You are the one aiming to be leader@ -- give me a reason why I should follow your vision instead of simply my own (shaped, of course, daily by the community I am a part of). Anyone who understands the distinction I am making here will understand what I mean by a Do Nothing DPL. Furthermore, I'd like to hear why you think that I am not honest and enthusiastic, and ideally I'd like to see some concrete examples. Eliza Why is it that you think I said *you* were not he? /Eliza (and I don't expect you to answer that here, but I do hope you'll think about it) The only 'example' I can hold you to is your own promises. It has been claimed that you were in fact something of a Do Nothing DPL -- my own personal experience with you has indeed shown that you've been quite low key compared to what I was led to expect at the last election. I for one appreciate that, and I certainly wouldn't label you as having been 'harmful' in the role as you have played it. As to the general more good stuff, less bad stuff issues, I think its pretty much been progress as usual without any major leaps in either direction over the last year. So ... If, as both you and Branden assert in your campaigning, things are mostly ok, but as always, can be improved -- and if the people in a position to make those improvements are already aware of and working on the issues, then why is it that we need, or would even want, anything other than a Do Nothing DPL, that justs gets on with their own part of that, and keeps everybody smiling for most of the rest of the time? If we don't need centralised redirection this year, why do we need a leader who is promising to change things anyway? And if we do, it will in all likelyhood be led by the people who are already in a position of 'power' over the particular situation (as we saw when the compromise caused a major and sudden shakeup of our practices). Given this situation, if you want my second preference over this year's do nothing but have fun candidate, perhaps you would like to describe what changes have occurred to the project over your term in this role that would not have happened had you not held it, and maybe how that fits in with your platform and its evolution from last year to next? If you want my first preference, you're going to need to actually place some bets about what needs to change and how you think you can effect that change for the project. As I said, I think what we need is a leader with a clear vision of what the project needs from that role over the next year or so. And it is a rare and wise leader indeed that knows when not to lead. Gergely strikes me as either blatantly that wise, or a total raving fool. In either case, if a Do Nothing DPL is what we need, then he couldn't do better if he came equipped with a Zaphod skin for his tama. King of the Bean festivals have apparently been a healthy part of many cultures over the ages. Perhaps its high time Debian had one. ...instead of burning out otherwise talented people in a typically token role. And we can always recall him if he was to do something stupid like, say, appoint someone to 'help' elmo, then snub elmo in all future communication. But then I've never seen Gergely hound elmo off of IRC either, so that is probably not likely to be a problem in his case. Ron
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer
* Ron [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004-03-12 15:53]: Furthermore, I'd like to hear why you think that I am not honest and enthusiastic, and ideally I'd like to see some concrete examples. Eliza Why is it that you think I said *you* were not he? /Eliza (and I don't expect you to answer that here, but I do hope you'll think about it) Because you explictly said so, unless I've mistaken your mail. I was surprised by this (because I think I'm honest and enthusiastic) which is why I asked. You wrote: | My concern is that we find a DPL who is *honest* and *enthusiastic* | about the future they see for the project and who is prepared to share | that vision unabashedly with anyone who will listen. | What I'm seeing (again) from the two mainstream candidates, is that they | have their own personal reasons for wanting to be DPL, and that they are | prepared to talk up whatever other issues they think will win them | support to that end. This seems to suggests that you think both Branden and I are dishonest and not enthusiastic. The only 'example' I can hold you to is your own promises. It has been claimed that you were in fact something of a Do Nothing DPL -- my own personal experience with you has indeed shown that you've been quite low key compared to what I was led to expect at the last election. The kind of tasks I carry out are summarized for example in http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2003/debian-devel-announce-200310/msg00014.html I think they are all very important, and while you may often not notice those changes, they are vital in order to ensure that the project is running smoothly. -- Martin Michlmayr [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer
On Fri, Mar 12, 2004 at 03:53:00PM +1030, Ron wrote: On Thu, Mar 11, 2004 at 06:25:47PM +, Martin Michlmayr wrote: Furthermore, I'd like to hear why you think that I am not honest and enthusiastic, and ideally I'd like to see some concrete examples. The only 'example' I can hold you to is your own promises. It has been claimed that you were in fact something of a Do Nothing DPL -- Uhm, care to back this up? It's certainly not how I experienced the last year. * Martin actively worked on improving the mips/mipsel/arm autobuilders situation by organizing hardware and coordinating with the admins[1][2] * He played an excellent role in toning down and moderating the evil elmo/buildd/nm flamewar through thoughtful, calming mails. Both Ingo Juergensmann and Goswin Brederlow acknowledged that he was responsive and trying to solve their 'issues'. * He coordinated internally with all the important infrastructure groups, resulting in new listmasters, a new security officer and a much smoother processing of NM applicants. * One of the first visible things he did was defending our reputation when 'Trusted Debian' was announced. By talking to them he made them change their name to 'Adamantix' and also setup a Trademark committee [3] * In order to settle the GFDL license problems, he supported the GDL commitee doing direct negotiations with the FSF. He also talked to Bradley Kuhn directly on how to solve this issue. * He made it possible for some developers to better work on the critical things they do for Debian, like organizing better hardware for them or arrange for real-life meetings. These are only the major things I remember from last year, taken from all areas a DPL should be active in, IMHO (internal communication, internal coordination, external representation, external cooperation). If you google for 'site:lists.debian.org From: Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project Leader', you can get all the small bits he did internally - I'm sure he also wrote loads of DPL mail to external parties. Apart from that, I see his enthusiasm and dedication for the project and his job as leader daily on the mailing-lists and on irc. If, as both you and Branden assert in your campaigning, things are mostly ok, but as always, can be improved -- and if the people in a position to make those improvements are already aware of and working on the issues, then why is it that we need, or would even want, anything other than a Do Nothing DPL, that justs gets on with their own part of that, and keeps everybody smiling for most of the rest of the time? IMO, the project would get along fine without a DPL or a 'do nothing DPL'. But as the last year has shown, it will be much better off with an DPL who actively tries to resolve issues and faciliate the work of others. cheers, Michael -- [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-0402/msg00463.html [2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-0311/msg01269.html [3] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project-0309/msg4.html
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer
* Ron [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004-03-11 15:24]: My concern is that we find a DPL who is *honest* and *enthusiastic* about the future they see for the project and who is prepared to share that vision unabashedly with anyone who will listen. What I'm seeing (again) from the two mainstream candidates, is that they have their own personal reasons for wanting to be DPL, and that they are prepared to talk up whatever other issues they think will win them support to that end. I'd be interested in hearing what you think my personal reasons are for running for DPL. Furthermore, I'd like to hear why you think that I am not honest and enthusiastic, and ideally I'd like to see some concrete examples. -- Martin Michlmayr [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer
On Thu, Mar 11, 2004 at 06:25:47PM +, Martin Michlmayr wrote: * Ron [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004-03-11 15:24]: My concern is that we find a DPL who is *honest* and *enthusiastic* about the future they see for the project and who is prepared to share that vision unabashedly with anyone who will listen. What I'm seeing (again) from the two mainstream candidates, is that they have their own personal reasons for wanting to be DPL, and that they are prepared to talk up whatever other issues they think will win them support to that end. I'd be interested in hearing what you think my personal reasons are for running for DPL. Then next time you are anywhere near Adelaide, give me a call, and we can talk about it over some beers. In the meantime, I think the bandwidth on -vote (which you cc'd) could be better put to use hearing them from you. You are the one aiming to be leader@ -- give me a reason why I should follow your vision instead of simply my own (shaped, of course, daily by the community I am a part of). Anyone who understands the distinction I am making here will understand what I mean by a Do Nothing DPL. Furthermore, I'd like to hear why you think that I am not honest and enthusiastic, and ideally I'd like to see some concrete examples. Eliza Why is it that you think I said *you* were not he? /Eliza (and I don't expect you to answer that here, but I do hope you'll think about it) The only 'example' I can hold you to is your own promises. It has been claimed that you were in fact something of a Do Nothing DPL -- my own personal experience with you has indeed shown that you've been quite low key compared to what I was led to expect at the last election. I for one appreciate that, and I certainly wouldn't label you as having been 'harmful' in the role as you have played it. As to the general more good stuff, less bad stuff issues, I think its pretty much been progress as usual without any major leaps in either direction over the last year. So ... If, as both you and Branden assert in your campaigning, things are mostly ok, but as always, can be improved -- and if the people in a position to make those improvements are already aware of and working on the issues, then why is it that we need, or would even want, anything other than a Do Nothing DPL, that justs gets on with their own part of that, and keeps everybody smiling for most of the rest of the time? If we don't need centralised redirection this year, why do we need a leader who is promising to change things anyway? And if we do, it will in all likelyhood be led by the people who are already in a position of 'power' over the particular situation (as we saw when the compromise caused a major and sudden shakeup of our practices). Given this situation, if you want my second preference over this year's do nothing but have fun candidate, perhaps you would like to describe what changes have occurred to the project over your term in this role that would not have happened had you not held it, and maybe how that fits in with your platform and its evolution from last year to next? If you want my first preference, you're going to need to actually place some bets about what needs to change and how you think you can effect that change for the project. As I said, I think what we need is a leader with a clear vision of what the project needs from that role over the next year or so. And it is a rare and wise leader indeed that knows when not to lead. Gergely strikes me as either blatantly that wise, or a total raving fool. In either case, if a Do Nothing DPL is what we need, then he couldn't do better if he came equipped with a Zaphod skin for his tama. King of the Bean festivals have apparently been a healthy part of many cultures over the ages. Perhaps its high time Debian had one. ...instead of burning out otherwise talented people in a typically token role. And we can always recall him if he was to do something stupid like, say, appoint someone to 'help' elmo, then snub elmo in all future communication. But then I've never seen Gergely hound elmo off of IRC either, so that is probably not likely to be a problem in his case. Ron -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer
On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 09:34:26PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: Ron [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 05:29:22PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: Despite all that Branden has ever done, Craig Sanders just unleashed a stream of unacceptable noise. Sorry, you'll have to be more specific, all that he has ever done to Craig, or all that he has ever done for the project? Whatever criticisms you may have of Branden's language and tone, it pales by comparison with Craig's, just unleashed on this mailing list, and you don't seem to have had anything to say about it. Well, for example, Branden for a long time had the How About A Nice Cup Of Shut The Fuck Up as the X Strike Force's official motto; and the old XSF url now has the title You like the cup. Drink from the cup. with the image sans its description. Historically, Branden's also written things like: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/debian-devel-200112/msg01933.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-x/2001/debian-x-200110/msg00144.html http://ned.ucam.org/~robot101/irc-quotes (pipe the last one through head -5), which don't strike me as particularly more polite than Craig's venting. It's probable Branden's changed since he said those things; at the very least he's a lot more circumspect about offending people as evidenced by the changes to the XSF's motto. I'm not sure being circumspect about it isn't worse -- Drink from the cup. still seems to be telling people to shut up, but if anyone ends up offended, they're likely to be ridiculed for reading too much into things, and be forced to either live with the continued annoyance, or leave. This makes me think it isn't Branden's tone that bothers you. Nor, for that matter, has Branden used such a tone in recent memory, as far as I've seen. Well, for instance after fixing an RC bug just yesterday he wrote on the IRC development channel: Overfiend 2 more tests to go Overfiend xrender 0.8.3-7 passes the upgrade test Overfiend xrender 0.8.3-7 passes the downgrade test Overfiend yeah, suck my dick, fucking RC bug I don't think it's remotely reasonable to think that this issue is the fault of any particular individuals, and I don't think it's just a matter of eliminating fuck from our vocabulary. I also don't think we'll manage to get anywhere without some sort of consensus on what sort of behaviour is okay and what isn't, and I don't think we're likely to get any level of consensus if you, Craig, Branden, myself, or anyone else who's come under strong criticism for not being appropriately approachable or transparent try to set the standards. I certainly can't imagine any consensus being achieved if people aren't willing to make basic adjustments that they think are unfair or unreasonable personally, but that don't really matter as far as Debian's goals go, eg, say, not flirting with chicks involved with Debian, not making issues personal, or not swearing. But, again, I'm almost certainly not the one to be saying which of those things Debian should allow, and which we should discourage. Cheers, aj -- Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/ I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred. Linux.conf.au 2004 -- Because we could. http://conf.linux.org.au/ -- Jan 12-17, 2004 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Hallo, Andy Thank You for Your kind and patient answer. I'll think about possibilities of trying testing release. It couldn't harm if there'll be some easier-to-install, quite functional testing, however :o) The most problems I have had were: freezing installer, unresolvable ways of installer action, broken dependencies. And after upgrade stable - testing, it was broken deps again. If only Woody accepted EQUAL-OR-NEWER (instead of _equal-only_) versions of packages than it's own, it should have solved 4/5 of problems. I would invite such option in apt system (force_accept newer_packages_and_take_deps_as_solved). Or if the stable had the versioning in the = manner. But maybe there's some ideological reason why not to do that that I don't see. Let there be the great time of downloading the Debian 3.1 Sarge :o) Have a nice day Peter Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 08:32:15AM +0100, Mgr. Peter Tuharsky wrote: I, being a man, am also scarried when interacting with Debian webpage or mailing list. I'm not too confident about my skills, and I feel something like we know the way, please don't tell us Your opinion around Debian. Maybe I feel wrong, but if this is what does scare You too, than maybe some positive change of mind would help. If I'm reading you correctly - there are probably a fair few of us on the list who are terrified by interacting with a Monsignor :) snipped some stuff The Debian mailing lists / discussion channels on IRC can be abrasive and the intolerance level of newcomers can be quite high. It is a good thing to sit back and read the lists for a while if you can to get a feel for the appropriate level to pitch the question at. [A simple theological analogy if appropriate: some people will come back patiently as if you are a child learning your catechism, others will instantly assume and demand that you know all the writings of the Church Fathers by heart and in great detail - and there is no easy way to tell who is who :) ] Maybe the versioning system is THAT what causes the lack of interaction. The system is very rigid and done much more in cathedral than bazaar style. All I can do is wait 2 years for the next stable release. I cannost use testing because there's no support for it, and the 3 times I downloaded actual sarge release (last time it was in september), I was not able even get it working. Church people should be able to cope with a cathedral :) Seriously, the secret is to take a de minimis approach at first. Even if it takes two or three iterations through dselect or whatever you use to select your packages. Sorting out 150 packages is easier than sorting out 2500 at once. 1.) Start _very_ simply. Install just the base from woody [80 - 100MB] and get that working. Then add, for example, the X Windows system in as simple a way as you can. Then add applications. 2.) If you plan to upgrade to testing or later- _only_ install the base system. Edit /etc/apt/sources.list and change the appropriate lines to testing / unstable. Then do apt-get update then apt-get dist-upgrade on a _minimal_ system. Then build slowly, as above. [There is support for testing - its just more informal, on the grounds that its usually quicker to just fix the problem. We also know that testing is ephemeral whereas stable can be expected to last for years with minimal updates once released.] I also tryed to upgrade woody to testing, but it ends up with totally dependency-broken system. In most cases I cannot even test single packages from testing, because I cannot install the requested new libc6 etc. because it brakes my woody's dependencies. The woody packages strictly demand the woody's version of the libraries, and don't accept newer ones. Thus it's difficult (impossible for me) to have USEFUL system for work, and DO THE TESTING in the same time. Testing, once installed, rarely breaks for me - but my needs are certainly going to be different from yours. The major pain is if a large meta-package gets upgraded e.g. all of XFree86 or all of KDE. Some things break for a day or so till the rest catches up, then you are fine once again. Yes, I'm lame, I use GNU/Linux for one year only, on few servers only, and It's my fault I'm not enough geek to make sarge running. It's not necessarry for anybody to tell it to me. Can you find a Linux user group or a Slovak / Bohemian / Czech developer who can help? Alternatively, keep writing to me/others and we may be able to help you resolve problems one by one. At one time, I might have recommended joining the debian-user mailing list - but the volume is high and there is a lot of noise. It is still worth scanning the list archives quickly to see if anyone else has similar problems. Despite all of this, I love Debian, I use it, I live with the Woody's bugs and I await next stable that I could use with more pleasure (hopefully).
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer
* Ron [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004-03-11 15:24]: My concern is that we find a DPL who is *honest* and *enthusiastic* about the future they see for the project and who is prepared to share that vision unabashedly with anyone who will listen. What I'm seeing (again) from the two mainstream candidates, is that they have their own personal reasons for wanting to be DPL, and that they are prepared to talk up whatever other issues they think will win them support to that end. I'd be interested in hearing what you think my personal reasons are for running for DPL. Furthermore, I'd like to hear why you think that I am not honest and enthusiastic, and ideally I'd like to see some concrete examples. -- Martin Michlmayr [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 08:32:15AM +0100, Mgr. Peter Tuharsky wrote: Does somebody know what I'm talking about? Yes. In my opinion, the most serious issue [and not one I have a good solution for] is the state of glibc: [1] Upstream sources generally are not buildable on older versions of the tool chain. This has security implications, and is a general pain, but [2] Because of portability issues, it can be very hard to figure out what the proper solution is to any specific problem, and [3] Building the toolchains (binutils, gcc, glibc) involves a lot of knowledge of largely undocumented features. [And those features aren't designed to be independent of each other -- changing one option might involve changing a few others just to allow the build to work at all.] Ultimately, this means that only experts can configure the thing properly. To some degree (especially for native builds for x86), this doesn't matter [it works, what's your problem?], but the underlying rigidity of the system hurts us. We get some flexibility back because our maintainers stick to fairly stable back versions of the code and maintain a set of deb patches, but ultimately this is caught in the same interlock as the upstream glibc. Until we have a tool chain which can be built on any system [for example, an old a.out linux] and be identical to one built on a modern system, we're going to be stuck with some elements of this issue. And when I say we, I don't mean just debian, but everybody else (including source only folks such as gentoo). But really solving this problem is incredibly difficult -- and it's not completely a glibc issue because [for example] bsd is faced with variants of the same problem using their own libcs (that's libc, plural, not lib cs). The general upgrading problem is a hard issue, and solving it involves a lot of trade offs. [And this is related to the reason it's so hard to get people to switch from non-free operating systems...] -- Raul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Raul Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [3] Building the toolchains (binutils, gcc, glibc) involves a lot of knowledge of largely undocumented features. [And those features aren't designed to be independent of each other -- changing one option might involve changing a few others just to allow the build to work at all.] On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 11:30:17AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: What undocumented features are these? I've built the toolchain plenty of times and never had to use any undocumented features. Well, for example, consider how --prefix= magically impacts what gets built. Or, tell me a bit about when when it's safe to use --without-gd independently of --without-cvs. Once again: it's easy to build glibc natively for x86, as long as you start from the proper prebuilt toolchain. -- Raul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Raul Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, for example, consider how --prefix= magically impacts what gets built. Hrm; I guess I knew about that from the beginning because I had a role in it, but you're right, that's an important bit of undocumented magic. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 12:04:09PM -0500, Raul Miller wrote: On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 08:32:15AM +0100, Mgr. Peter Tuharsky wrote: Does somebody know what I'm talking about? Yes. In my opinion, the most serious issue [and not one I have a good solution for] is the state of glibc: [1] Upstream sources generally are not buildable on older versions of the tool chain. This has security implications, and is a general pain, but [2] Because of portability issues, it can be very hard to figure out what the proper solution is to any specific problem, and [3] Building the toolchains (binutils, gcc, glibc) involves a lot of knowledge of largely undocumented features. [And those features aren't designed to be independent of each other -- changing one option might involve changing a few others just to allow the build to work at all.] That's why we have the glibc-hackers/wizards around. I consider this to be a feature, not a bug. Glibc and the rest of the toolchain *is* considered to be a difficult case, especially by upstream [1,2]. Anyway, this is highly off-topic for -vote, but I had a few beers and am frustrated with the outcome of the match tonight :p Michael [1] http://sources.redhat.com/ml/libc-alpha/2004-03/msg00076.html [2] http://sources.redhat.com/ml/libc-alpha/2004-03/msg00114.html -- Michael Banck Debian Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.advogato.org/person/mbanck/diary.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer
Branden writes: On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 11:06:40PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Indeed. For once I am ashamed to be a member of such a narrow minded, bigoted group. Helen, please accept my apologies; we are not quite grown up enough to be able to interact with women yet. Speak for yourself, sir. ... I refuse to characterize Debian by anyone's rash actions, or even by our rashest members. To do so deeply devalues our better-behaved comrades, who are in the majority. I, for one, see a distinction between problem-solving and self-flagellation. In my view, the latter is of extremely questionable utility. Given that you previously characterised yourself as one of our 'rashest' members, I must congratulate you on such carefully equivocal wording in your objection to Manoj's apology. My memory is not so short that it doesn't recall a flood from you on a Debian irc channel, shortly after a Debian event in NY, that would have made nugg look like a victorian gentleman. Nor so short as to recall that your own contribution to this sad state (under the guise of self satisfying humor), extends beyond any women that might have contact with the project to its (even hetero) male participants, and to the women of any south east asian countries they might be visiting. And yet still its not short enough to already know your preference for a public flogging over any exercise involving self restraint. I'm grateful in a small way that you at least contained such outbursts to a limited scope, from where I couldn't quote them here even if I was to want them repeated for this audience. Don't get me wrong, I've drunk to excess in biker pubs before, but I think the important part of what what Manoj was inferring was: Keep it in texas dude. (and if he wasn't then I am) That goes double for the 'baby kissing' bandwidth waste too. (which offends me personally more than most other things you say). I hereby offer a premonition. Overfiend will never be DPL until he matures enough to become his own asshole again. (bets or enquiries from the James Randy foundation to private mail please) Ron -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer
On Thu, Mar 11, 2004 at 09:22:27AM +1030, Ron wrote: Don't get me wrong, I've drunk to excess in biker pubs before, but I think the important part of what what Manoj was inferring was: Keep it in texas dude. (and if he wasn't then I am) That goes double for the 'baby kissing' bandwidth waste too. (which offends me personally more than most other things you say). I think he's doing a pretty good job of demonstrating how he'd approach the post, and in drawing lines between other contexts and this one. Near as I can tell, you're offended by what I perceive a sane and decent approach to these issues. However, if you have some relevant criticism, please be specific so that people like me can follow along. Thanks, -- Raul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer
Ron [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And yet still its not short enough to already know your preference for a public flogging over any exercise involving self restraint. Despite all that Branden has ever done, Craig Sanders just unleashed a stream of unacceptable noise. If we want to make Debian more attractive to whatever sort of people are turned off by rudeness and public verbal flogging, Branden should not be your first concern. Debian has already decided, through persistent and obstinant inaction, that Craig should be tolerated, no matter how many people he turns off from Debian. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer
On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 05:29:22PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: Despite all that Branden has ever done, Craig Sanders just unleashed a stream of unacceptable noise. Sorry, you'll have to be more specific, all that he has ever done to Craig, or all that he has ever done for the project? If the latter, that is well on record, both the positive and negative aspects and I admire him for the one though I quite depise his but I didn't inhale on the other. If the former, well that is on the record too, so I say lock them in a sound proof room together, for all our sakes. If people want to watch they can set up a webcam separate from Debian. In either case I have no idea what particular 'stream of noise' you are talking about. Both of them unleash them regularly (and they certainly don't have the sole licence to that), and it certainly contributes to the lack of attention _I_ give things in most of the forums where they do it. If you consider cas latest actions unacceptable then instigate whatever remedy is available to you. I can't censure him on things I haven't seen. If we want to make Debian more attractive to whatever sort of people are turned off by rudeness and public verbal flogging, Branden should not be your first concern. Branden is not my first concern when it comes to these problems, but Craig (who may not be the leader in this field either) is not running for DPL. Branden just happened to put his foot in a big smelly pile of it here while he was adjusting his posture. My concern is that we find a DPL who is *honest* and *enthusiastic* about the future they see for the project and who is prepared to share that vision unabashedly with anyone who will listen. What I'm seeing (again) from the two mainstream candidates, is that they have their own personal reasons for wanting to be DPL, and that they are prepared to talk up whatever other issues they think will win them support to that end. I don't find that very encouraging. It provably does not work to select a successful government, I don't see why it should work any better for us. Branden brought up the issue of a Do nothing DPL once again, in an attempt to score a cheap political point. In many ways, I wished to have raised the same question myself. But it doesn't only apply to the incumbent. Branden has become quite a regular at these elections (and IIRC I even voted for him the first time around), and he also scorned this idea -- so my questions to him would be: a) What have you done over the last two years to fix the things your platform says you consider important, and why will holding the title DPL enable you to be less of a Do Nothing DPL than your predecessor (in conjunction with yourself) may have been with respect to those things should you ever get it? b) How have you (or any of the rest of us for that matter) hindered the ability of the incumbent DPL(s) in achieving these things their own way? Frankly, the way I see it (and none of you have to agree with me), if we do not have a candidate with a clear vision of a different and better project in the future, then by simple definiton we *have* a Do Nothing DPL. Sure they talk to people, do stuff for the project, and give non-specific technical advice about non-specific technical things, but to bring back the NM argument, you don't need to be DPL to do any of those things. So if we are going to have a Do Nothing DPL in any case, then we might as well have one who is honest and enthusiastic about taking it on in that spirit until someone with a real and brilliant vision to share comes along again. Beware then Gergelybrush Nagywood, it is too late to nominate anyone else, and you might be left holding the body _and_ the tama when the coroner arrives... Ron (who's tempted to propose a GR on the subject of banning future self nominations for DPL and requiring candidates to have their nomination seconded by some minimum number of developers -- but not to discourage people like Gergely) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer
Ron [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 05:29:22PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: Despite all that Branden has ever done, Craig Sanders just unleashed a stream of unacceptable noise. Sorry, you'll have to be more specific, all that he has ever done to Craig, or all that he has ever done for the project? Whatever criticisms you may have of Branden's language and tone, it pales by comparison with Craig's, just unleashed on this mailing list, and you don't seem to have had anything to say about it. This makes me think it isn't Branden's tone that bothers you. Nor, for that matter, has Branden used such a tone in recent memory, as far as I've seen. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer
On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 09:34:26PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: Ron [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 05:29:22PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: Despite all that Branden has ever done, Craig Sanders just unleashed a stream of unacceptable noise. Sorry, you'll have to be more specific, all that he has ever done to Craig, or all that he has ever done for the project? Whatever criticisms you may have of Branden's language and tone, it pales by comparison with Craig's, just unleashed on this mailing list, and you don't seem to have had anything to say about it. Well, for example, Branden for a long time had the How About A Nice Cup Of Shut The Fuck Up as the X Strike Force's official motto; and the old XSF url now has the title You like the cup. Drink from the cup. with the image sans its description. Historically, Branden's also written things like: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/debian-devel-200112/msg01933.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-x/2001/debian-x-200110/msg00144.html http://ned.ucam.org/~robot101/irc-quotes (pipe the last one through head -5), which don't strike me as particularly more polite than Craig's venting. It's probable Branden's changed since he said those things; at the very least he's a lot more circumspect about offending people as evidenced by the changes to the XSF's motto. I'm not sure being circumspect about it isn't worse -- Drink from the cup. still seems to be telling people to shut up, but if anyone ends up offended, they're likely to be ridiculed for reading too much into things, and be forced to either live with the continued annoyance, or leave. This makes me think it isn't Branden's tone that bothers you. Nor, for that matter, has Branden used such a tone in recent memory, as far as I've seen. Well, for instance after fixing an RC bug just yesterday he wrote on the IRC development channel: Overfiend 2 more tests to go Overfiend xrender 0.8.3-7 passes the upgrade test Overfiend xrender 0.8.3-7 passes the downgrade test Overfiend yeah, suck my dick, fucking RC bug I don't think it's remotely reasonable to think that this issue is the fault of any particular individuals, and I don't think it's just a matter of eliminating fuck from our vocabulary. I also don't think we'll manage to get anywhere without some sort of consensus on what sort of behaviour is okay and what isn't, and I don't think we're likely to get any level of consensus if you, Craig, Branden, myself, or anyone else who's come under strong criticism for not being appropriately approachable or transparent try to set the standards. I certainly can't imagine any consensus being achieved if people aren't willing to make basic adjustments that they think are unfair or unreasonable personally, but that don't really matter as far as Debian's goals go, eg, say, not flirting with chicks involved with Debian, not making issues personal, or not swearing. But, again, I'm almost certainly not the one to be saying which of those things Debian should allow, and which we should discourage. Cheers, aj -- Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/ I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred. Linux.conf.au 2004 -- Because we could. http://conf.linux.org.au/ -- Jan 12-17, 2004 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Re: Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
I, being a man, am also scarried when interacting with Debian webpage or mailing list. I'm not too confident about my skills, and I feel something like we know the way, please don't tell us Your opinion around Debian. Maybe I feel wrong, but if this is what does scare You too, than maybe some positive change of mind would help. I don't feel much interest in my opinion how I wish Debian could evolve. I'm quite active in bug reporting systems of Mozilla and OpenOffice.org, I did some questions in DOSEmu.org and Kernel.org, and some suggestions to DECP, and all I have encountered was correct and my issues were invited. I don't want be sentimental, but in contrast I really fear reporting a bug to Debian :o) I await an answer of You don't understand it, and such issues will be counted in 3 years or hte fixed package already is in testing, why do You use old stable one? type. Maybe the versioning system is THAT what causes the lack of interaction. The system is very rigid and done much more in cathedral than bazaar style. All I can do is wait 2 years for the next stable release. I cannost use testing because there's no support for it, and the 3 times I downloaded actual sarge release (last time it was in september), I was not able even get it working. I also tryed to upgrade woody to testing, but it ends up with totally dependency-broken system. In most cases I cannot even test single packages from testing, because I cannot install the requested new libc6 etc. because it brakes my woody's dependencies. The woody packages strictly demand the woody's version of the libraries, and don't accept newer ones. Thus it's difficult (impossible for me) to have USEFUL system for work, and DO THE TESTING in the same time. Why I'm talking about it? Because I usually use alpha and beta versions of Mozilla and OpenOffice.org, wine and DOSEMU, I tested 2.6 kernel, and had no problem installing, using and upgrading it. If I discovered error, I reported it. I don't rely on stable versions, if I can succesfully use (do my work using) the development ones and help testing. I like helping community. But how can I help test the Debian? Woody is white-haired old man, there's no sense to report bugs for packages that are SUCH old and bugs are usually fixed in any newer version. What should I report? The package XYZ has severe bug that is fixed in n+0.1 version and the fixed version is already in unstable, I wait happy until the day it will find it's way to stable? I cannot imagine. And usage of testing is destination unreachable for me. If I can't do the work on the system, If I even cannot get system working, I can't use it, thus I can't test it. Yes, I'm lame, I use GNU/Linux for one year only, on few servers only, and It's my fault I'm not enough geek to make sarge running. It's not necessarry for anybody to tell it to me. Does somebody know what I'm talking about? If it's difficult to interact with Debian for me being man, It's no wonder for me that it's difficult for woman :o) Despite all of this, I love Debian, I use it, I live with the Woody's bugs and I await next stable that I could use with more pleasure (hopefully). Peter
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Raul Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [3] Building the toolchains (binutils, gcc, glibc) involves a lot of knowledge of largely undocumented features. [And those features aren't designed to be independent of each other -- changing one option might involve changing a few others just to allow the build to work at all.] What undocumented features are these? I've built the toolchain plenty of times and never had to use any undocumented features.
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Raul Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [3] Building the toolchains (binutils, gcc, glibc) involves a lot of knowledge of largely undocumented features. [And those features aren't designed to be independent of each other -- changing one option might involve changing a few others just to allow the build to work at all.] On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 11:30:17AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: What undocumented features are these? I've built the toolchain plenty of times and never had to use any undocumented features. Well, for example, consider how --prefix= magically impacts what gets built. Or, tell me a bit about when when it's safe to use --without-gd independently of --without-cvs. Once again: it's easy to build glibc natively for x86, as long as you start from the proper prebuilt toolchain. -- Raul
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Raul Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, for example, consider how --prefix= magically impacts what gets built. Hrm; I guess I knew about that from the beginning because I had a role in it, but you're right, that's an important bit of undocumented magic. Thomas
Re: Re: Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 12:04:09PM -0500, Raul Miller wrote: On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 08:32:15AM +0100, Mgr. Peter Tuharsky wrote: Does somebody know what I'm talking about? Yes. In my opinion, the most serious issue [and not one I have a good solution for] is the state of glibc: [1] Upstream sources generally are not buildable on older versions of the tool chain. This has security implications, and is a general pain, but [2] Because of portability issues, it can be very hard to figure out what the proper solution is to any specific problem, and [3] Building the toolchains (binutils, gcc, glibc) involves a lot of knowledge of largely undocumented features. [And those features aren't designed to be independent of each other -- changing one option might involve changing a few others just to allow the build to work at all.] That's why we have the glibc-hackers/wizards around. I consider this to be a feature, not a bug. Glibc and the rest of the toolchain *is* considered to be a difficult case, especially by upstream [1,2]. Anyway, this is highly off-topic for -vote, but I had a few beers and am frustrated with the outcome of the match tonight :p Michael [1] http://sources.redhat.com/ml/libc-alpha/2004-03/msg00076.html [2] http://sources.redhat.com/ml/libc-alpha/2004-03/msg00114.html -- Michael Banck Debian Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.advogato.org/person/mbanck/diary.html
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer
Branden writes: On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 11:06:40PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Indeed. For once I am ashamed to be a member of such a narrow minded, bigoted group. Helen, please accept my apologies; we are not quite grown up enough to be able to interact with women yet. Speak for yourself, sir. ... I refuse to characterize Debian by anyone's rash actions, or even by our rashest members. To do so deeply devalues our better-behaved comrades, who are in the majority. I, for one, see a distinction between problem-solving and self-flagellation. In my view, the latter is of extremely questionable utility. Given that you previously characterised yourself as one of our 'rashest' members, I must congratulate you on such carefully equivocal wording in your objection to Manoj's apology. My memory is not so short that it doesn't recall a flood from you on a Debian irc channel, shortly after a Debian event in NY, that would have made nugg look like a victorian gentleman. Nor so short as to recall that your own contribution to this sad state (under the guise of self satisfying humor), extends beyond any women that might have contact with the project to its (even hetero) male participants, and to the women of any south east asian countries they might be visiting. And yet still its not short enough to already know your preference for a public flogging over any exercise involving self restraint. I'm grateful in a small way that you at least contained such outbursts to a limited scope, from where I couldn't quote them here even if I was to want them repeated for this audience. Don't get me wrong, I've drunk to excess in biker pubs before, but I think the important part of what what Manoj was inferring was: Keep it in texas dude. (and if he wasn't then I am) That goes double for the 'baby kissing' bandwidth waste too. (which offends me personally more than most other things you say). I hereby offer a premonition. Overfiend will never be DPL until he matures enough to become his own asshole again. (bets or enquiries from the James Randy foundation to private mail please) Ron
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer
On Thu, Mar 11, 2004 at 09:22:27AM +1030, Ron wrote: Don't get me wrong, I've drunk to excess in biker pubs before, but I think the important part of what what Manoj was inferring was: Keep it in texas dude. (and if he wasn't then I am) That goes double for the 'baby kissing' bandwidth waste too. (which offends me personally more than most other things you say). I think he's doing a pretty good job of demonstrating how he'd approach the post, and in drawing lines between other contexts and this one. Near as I can tell, you're offended by what I perceive a sane and decent approach to these issues. However, if you have some relevant criticism, please be specific so that people like me can follow along. Thanks, -- Raul
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer
Ron [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And yet still its not short enough to already know your preference for a public flogging over any exercise involving self restraint. Despite all that Branden has ever done, Craig Sanders just unleashed a stream of unacceptable noise. If we want to make Debian more attractive to whatever sort of people are turned off by rudeness and public verbal flogging, Branden should not be your first concern. Debian has already decided, through persistent and obstinant inaction, that Craig should be tolerated, no matter how many people he turns off from Debian. Thomas
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates, and a blatantly political answer
On Wed, Mar 10, 2004 at 05:29:22PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: Despite all that Branden has ever done, Craig Sanders just unleashed a stream of unacceptable noise. Sorry, you'll have to be more specific, all that he has ever done to Craig, or all that he has ever done for the project? If the latter, that is well on record, both the positive and negative aspects and I admire him for the one though I quite depise his but I didn't inhale on the other. If the former, well that is on the record too, so I say lock them in a sound proof room together, for all our sakes. If people want to watch they can set up a webcam separate from Debian. In either case I have no idea what particular 'stream of noise' you are talking about. Both of them unleash them regularly (and they certainly don't have the sole licence to that), and it certainly contributes to the lack of attention _I_ give things in most of the forums where they do it. If you consider cas latest actions unacceptable then instigate whatever remedy is available to you. I can't censure him on things I haven't seen. If we want to make Debian more attractive to whatever sort of people are turned off by rudeness and public verbal flogging, Branden should not be your first concern. Branden is not my first concern when it comes to these problems, but Craig (who may not be the leader in this field either) is not running for DPL. Branden just happened to put his foot in a big smelly pile of it here while he was adjusting his posture. My concern is that we find a DPL who is *honest* and *enthusiastic* about the future they see for the project and who is prepared to share that vision unabashedly with anyone who will listen. What I'm seeing (again) from the two mainstream candidates, is that they have their own personal reasons for wanting to be DPL, and that they are prepared to talk up whatever other issues they think will win them support to that end. I don't find that very encouraging. It provably does not work to select a successful government, I don't see why it should work any better for us. Branden brought up the issue of a Do nothing DPL once again, in an attempt to score a cheap political point. In many ways, I wished to have raised the same question myself. But it doesn't only apply to the incumbent. Branden has become quite a regular at these elections (and IIRC I even voted for him the first time around), and he also scorned this idea -- so my questions to him would be: a) What have you done over the last two years to fix the things your platform says you consider important, and why will holding the title DPL enable you to be less of a Do Nothing DPL than your predecessor (in conjunction with yourself) may have been with respect to those things should you ever get it? b) How have you (or any of the rest of us for that matter) hindered the ability of the incumbent DPL(s) in achieving these things their own way? Frankly, the way I see it (and none of you have to agree with me), if we do not have a candidate with a clear vision of a different and better project in the future, then by simple definiton we *have* a Do Nothing DPL. Sure they talk to people, do stuff for the project, and give non-specific technical advice about non-specific technical things, but to bring back the NM argument, you don't need to be DPL to do any of those things. So if we are going to have a Do Nothing DPL in any case, then we might as well have one who is honest and enthusiastic about taking it on in that spirit until someone with a real and brilliant vision to share comes along again. Beware then Gergelybrush Nagywood, it is too late to nominate anyone else, and you might be left holding the body _and_ the tama when the coroner arrives... Ron (who's tempted to propose a GR on the subject of banning future self nominations for DPL and requiring candidates to have their nomination seconded by some minimum number of developers -- but not to discourage people like Gergely)
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 08:26:32AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 20:15:25 -0500, Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Perhaps we need to reconsider our official recognition of Freenode's #debian as a Project resource. Fair enough. Do you think that hosting it on any other irc network is likely to change matters, though? Not necessarily. [...] Of course, we could wash our hands of the irc channels in the first place, but having restarted visiting #debian, I can say that a lot of people are being helped there as well. *If* we can't get the instant problem wrestled under control, then I think our next best course of action is to repudiate it. That is, if we actually feel it's a cesspool of misogynists that we're horrified to be associated with. On the other hand, some good seems to be coming out of this discussion, in that a fire has been lit under people to be more attentive to this particular problem. That's good, even if it is only ephemeral -- because by the time things would have backslid, we may have succeded in welcoming enough women to our ranks that our culture changes a little, and the problem is permanently solved. Or at least permanently attenuated. Recalling my earlier comments about gay-bashing, I seem to recollect that people have been called on it when they did it (or something that could be construed as it), both on our lists and IRC. We may have enough gay developers that we are self-policing in this respect, since many of us can think of fellow developers we work with who are guy. That puts a face on the target, and instead of a negative remark being about them, it's actually about some of us, and we rise to our own defense. In summary, now is a great time for those us with geek friends who happen to be women to recruit them to our ranks. It looks some much-needed consciousness-raising has taken place, so we should strike while the iron is hot. -- G. Branden Robinson| Psychology is really biology. Debian GNU/Linux | Biology is really chemistry. [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Chemistry is really physics. http://people.debian.org/~branden/ | Physics is really math. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 08:26:32AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 20:15:25 -0500, Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Perhaps we need to reconsider our official recognition of Freenode's #debian as a Project resource. Fair enough. Do you think that hosting it on any other irc network is likely to change matters, though? Not necessarily. [...] Of course, we could wash our hands of the irc channels in the first place, but having restarted visiting #debian, I can say that a lot of people are being helped there as well. *If* we can't get the instant problem wrestled under control, then I think our next best course of action is to repudiate it. That is, if we actually feel it's a cesspool of misogynists that we're horrified to be associated with. On the other hand, some good seems to be coming out of this discussion, in that a fire has been lit under people to be more attentive to this particular problem. That's good, even if it is only ephemeral -- because by the time things would have backslid, we may have succeded in welcoming enough women to our ranks that our culture changes a little, and the problem is permanently solved. Or at least permanently attenuated. Recalling my earlier comments about gay-bashing, I seem to recollect that people have been called on it when they did it (or something that could be construed as it), both on our lists and IRC. We may have enough gay developers that we are self-policing in this respect, since many of us can think of fellow developers we work with who are guy. That puts a face on the target, and instead of a negative remark being about them, it's actually about some of us, and we rise to our own defense. In summary, now is a great time for those us with geek friends who happen to be women to recruit them to our ranks. It looks some much-needed consciousness-raising has taken place, so we should strike while the iron is hot. -- G. Branden Robinson| Psychology is really biology. Debian GNU/Linux | Biology is really chemistry. [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Chemistry is really physics. http://people.debian.org/~branden/ | Physics is really math. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Hi, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: Helen Faulkner [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Partly it's knowing that I'm going to be dealing with a man (almost certainly), and he may assume I don't know what I'm doing, and he may put me down or be condescending or unkind as a result. Are you assuming that all men will do this? Note the word may. The men who do might well be operating from a negative stereotype of women. But it sounds to me as if you are countering with your own negative stereotype of men. You know, that mail clearly shows that you're part of the problem here. The fear she talks about is _hardly_ uncommon. It's the reason why there are women-only computer courses, for example. I would certainly argue that the fear is mostly unfounded, but that doesn't make it any less real. It's a cultural thing -- have you ever spent any time in a typical high school science class? *Ugh*. -- Matthias Urlichs -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Hi, Raul Miller wrote: On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 09:39:50PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote: I can demonstrate evidence that I'm not a gerbil quite handily. On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 08:08:49AM +, Andrew Suffield wrote: No you can't, because you're a gerbil and gerbils can't form rational arguments. If it's true that gerbils can't form rational arguments (not much doubt that they can't express rational arguments, but that's not your claim), then the mere ability to form rational arguments (or, even better express those arguments) qualifies as demonstrating evidence. Umm, that logic works here because the meta-argument and the meta-meta-argument are actually about the same topic (rational arguments). In real-world examples, it is quite easy to sustain the Gerbil Hypothesis: you simply assert that the conclusion the supposed gerbil arrives at is invalid. We've had quite a few examples of this kind of argument on -devel recently. -- Matthias Urlichs -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Hi, Raul Miller wrote: Not really equally, however -- more visible people tend to get more abuse than less visible people. [Consider James Troup as a rather recent example of this.] Not really. IMHO the abuse was exchanged mostly between participants of the discussion about James, and comparatively few was directed *at* him, mostly because he wasn't there... -- Matthias Urlichs -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Sun, Mar 07, 2004 at 09:51:42AM +0100, Matthias Urlichs wrote: Hi, Raul Miller wrote: Not really equally, however -- more visible people tend to get more abuse than less visible people. [Consider James Troup as a rather recent example of this.] Not really. IMHO the abuse was exchanged mostly between participants of the discussion about James, and comparatively few was directed *at* him, mostly because he wasn't there... I find it funny to think that James wouldn't have noticed the personal attacks or stay indifferent to them. Just because he does not respond to personal attacks does not mean he would be immune to them. Michael -- Michael Banck Debian Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.advogato.org/person/mbanck/diary.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Hi, Michael Banck wrote: On Sun, Mar 07, 2004 at 09:51:42AM +0100, Matthias Urlichs wrote: Hi, Raul Miller wrote: Not really equally, however -- more visible people tend to get more abuse than less visible people. [Consider James Troup as a rather recent example of this.] Not really. IMHO the abuse was exchanged mostly between participants of the discussion about James, and comparatively few was directed *at* him, mostly because he wasn't there... I find it funny to think that James wouldn't have noticed the personal attacks or stay indifferent to them. Just because he does not respond to personal attacks does not mean he would be immune to them. That's not what I said. I didn't say James wouldn't notice. I was talking about the public discussion ^w flame-fest on -devel. Since that didn't contain any message from James (the stuff Ingo quoted doesn't count) he simply wasn't visible. (There might have been the wrong word; sorry if that was misunderstandable.) -- Matthias Urlichs -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004, Manoj Srivastava wrote: I see. So, since you did nothing wrong, does that mean that obviously Debian is not a hostile environment for women? That we have nothing to address? Could be. Or it could mean there is a problem but it is improperly described or means for testing it are inadequate. -- Jaldhar H. Vyas [EMAIL PROTECTED] La Salle Debain - http://www.braincells.com/debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Hi, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: Helen Faulkner [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Partly it's knowing that I'm going to be dealing with a man (almost certainly), and he may assume I don't know what I'm doing, and he may put me down or be condescending or unkind as a result. Are you assuming that all men will do this? Note the word may. The men who do might well be operating from a negative stereotype of women. But it sounds to me as if you are countering with your own negative stereotype of men. You know, that mail clearly shows that you're part of the problem here. The fear she talks about is _hardly_ uncommon. It's the reason why there are women-only computer courses, for example. I would certainly argue that the fear is mostly unfounded, but that doesn't make it any less real. It's a cultural thing -- have you ever spent any time in a typical high school science class? *Ugh*. -- Matthias Urlichs
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Hi, Raul Miller wrote: On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 09:39:50PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote: I can demonstrate evidence that I'm not a gerbil quite handily. On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 08:08:49AM +, Andrew Suffield wrote: No you can't, because you're a gerbil and gerbils can't form rational arguments. If it's true that gerbils can't form rational arguments (not much doubt that they can't express rational arguments, but that's not your claim), then the mere ability to form rational arguments (or, even better express those arguments) qualifies as demonstrating evidence. Umm, that logic works here because the meta-argument and the meta-meta-argument are actually about the same topic (rational arguments). In real-world examples, it is quite easy to sustain the Gerbil Hypothesis: you simply assert that the conclusion the supposed gerbil arrives at is invalid. We've had quite a few examples of this kind of argument on -devel recently. -- Matthias Urlichs
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Hi, Raul Miller wrote: Not really equally, however -- more visible people tend to get more abuse than less visible people. [Consider James Troup as a rather recent example of this.] Not really. IMHO the abuse was exchanged mostly between participants of the discussion about James, and comparatively few was directed *at* him, mostly because he wasn't there... -- Matthias Urlichs
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Sun, Mar 07, 2004 at 09:51:42AM +0100, Matthias Urlichs wrote: Hi, Raul Miller wrote: Not really equally, however -- more visible people tend to get more abuse than less visible people. [Consider James Troup as a rather recent example of this.] Not really. IMHO the abuse was exchanged mostly between participants of the discussion about James, and comparatively few was directed *at* him, mostly because he wasn't there... I find it funny to think that James wouldn't have noticed the personal attacks or stay indifferent to them. Just because he does not respond to personal attacks does not mean he would be immune to them. Michael -- Michael Banck Debian Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.advogato.org/person/mbanck/diary.html
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Hi, Michael Banck wrote: On Sun, Mar 07, 2004 at 09:51:42AM +0100, Matthias Urlichs wrote: Hi, Raul Miller wrote: Not really equally, however -- more visible people tend to get more abuse than less visible people. [Consider James Troup as a rather recent example of this.] Not really. IMHO the abuse was exchanged mostly between participants of the discussion about James, and comparatively few was directed *at* him, mostly because he wasn't there... I find it funny to think that James wouldn't have noticed the personal attacks or stay indifferent to them. Just because he does not respond to personal attacks does not mean he would be immune to them. That's not what I said. I didn't say James wouldn't notice. I was talking about the public discussion ^w flame-fest on -devel. Since that didn't contain any message from James (the stuff Ingo quoted doesn't count) he simply wasn't visible. (There might have been the wrong word; sorry if that was misunderstandable.) -- Matthias Urlichs
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Matthias Urlichs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: Helen Faulkner [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Partly it's knowing that I'm going to be dealing with a man (almost certainly), and he may assume I don't know what I'm doing, and he may put me down or be condescending or unkind as a result. Are you assuming that all men will do this? Note the word may. If it's to be taken as you suggest, then it's content-free. *Anyone* might do that. She seemed to be making some assumption beyond just the fact of the possibility. The fear she talks about is _hardly_ uncommon. It's the reason why there are women-only computer courses, for example. I didn't say it was uncommon. It's a good reason for Debian to worry about it and try to alleviate it. My question was different.
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Sat, 6 Mar 2004, Peter Samuelson wrote: All your pontificating about data and proof is a fine way to avoid the actual issue under discussion, which is that a social system (the Debian Project) is exhibiting the same symptom (fairly extreme under-representation of women) as other systems which have been studied and are similar to the Project in other ways. Well while we're pontificating...to what extent _is_ Debian a social system? It has one big fat signifier of being one -- a written social contract. It has some procedures, in-jokes (i.e. duelling banjos) and specialized vocabulary (ITP, debianize etc.) But on the other hand there is very little agreement on anything other than the desire to create a free, technically excellent operating system. And even there, there is disagreement on how free is free. A good number of made members of Debian don't even bother voting in project leader elections (I believe the turnout last year was 58%,) at the other extreme a group making a cd of open source software for Windows adopted the Debian Free Software Guidelines as their criteria even though they have nothing to do formally with Debian at all. How would you classify both poles in terms of being part of the Debian social system? Some developers just fix bugs in their packages as reports come in and thats it. Others breath, eat, and sleep Debian. I think most developers start with the former and progress (though usually not all the way!) towards the latter. The requirement to have a key signed by an existing developer which was adopted several years encouraged this trend. Now we have more frequent face-to-face meetings (such as debconf,) things like Planet Debian etc. which help put a more human face on those From: lines. Things of this nature would do a lot to decrese the levels of aggression. For instance one of the reasons I was able to shrug off Manoj's vituperation was because I've never seen him before and care not a whit what he thinks of me. Conversely, those Debianites who've met me might accuse me of a lot of things but being a big bag of dripping hacker testosterone is not going to be one of them. (I'm more like the guy smiling in the back of the photo. The one people know but can't remember the name of. But I digress.) If we knew each other better both of our reactions would be likely to be rather different. Here's the fly in the ointment though. While increasing the effectiveness of the Debian social system would help break down some barriers, it would raise others to people who already have extensive investment in other social systems. Any talk of representation has to take that into account. -- Jaldhar H. Vyas [EMAIL PROTECTED] La Salle Debain - http://www.braincells.com/debian/
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004, Manoj Srivastava wrote: OK. Last I heard, irc.debian.org #debian is a project resource. Here is an example of how women are treated in Debian; Ok at last we're at least moving into the realm of empirical data and I thank you for that but I must say you are engaging in a little rhetorical sleight of hand here over the words in Debian It has already been mentioned by others that very few Debian developers (arguably one good definition of what comprises Debian) ever go there. One could also note that a high proportion of IRC users in general are asshats and women get that sort of treatment almost everywhere. Which still makes it a problem but not a Debian specific one. Here are some other examples of how women are treated in Debian. In January 2003 (picked at random) there were 1601 posts to the debian-user mailing list. 55 of those (3.5%) were from female-sounding names as far as I can tell. No incidents of harrasment or condescencion occurred. Is this the true face of Debian? In the same month 2002 posts were made to debian-devel. 1 was by a woman. This month was notable for the Jack Howarth is a fucking idiot thread. Is this the true face of Debian? During the time period including this month Karolina Lindqvist made .debs for KDEs' CVS snapshots. This was done outside the official Debian framework altogether but they were very popular with Debian KDE users (including myself.) Is this the true face of Debian? I haven't kept any hard figures on it but in the four years I've been at the Debian booth at LinuxWorld in New York we've consistently had greater than 3.5% of the visitors be women (I would estimate about 20% but see caveat above.) None of them to my recollection have ever been snubbed or talked down too. Is this the true face of Debian? The fallacy in your use of Debian is that you assume there is a fixed idea of the boundaries of Debian and that everyone thinks it is at the same place as you. Lastly, since you mentioned it (and mentioned it, and mentioned it) In the month of November 2003 (I'd had a hard drive crash earlier that year that makes January data unavailable) I wrote or responded to 125 emails in relation to Debian matters. Of those 4 were from women (Curiously also 3.5% statistical fluke or trend?) Actually one woman but the thread included aw, you're a dear and I'm delighted it was resolved so quickly. Pretty good for a neanderthal eh? You are welcome to do additional research along these lines. I for one conclude there is no problem that concerns me. If you on the other hand still do, don't wait for Debian, have at it! You can solve it right now by signing Helens or some other womans GPG key, and sponsoring them through the new maintainer process. Or by setting an example as a paragon of politeness and civility. Sure I won't lift a finger to help but I won't lift one to hinder either so I shouldn't bother you because it's just as much an instance of Debian solving problems as anything else. -- Jaldhar H. Vyas [EMAIL PROTECTED] La Salle Debain - http://www.braincells.com/debian/
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004, Manoj Srivastava wrote: I see. So, since you did nothing wrong, does that mean that obviously Debian is not a hostile environment for women? That we have nothing to address? Could be. Or it could mean there is a problem but it is improperly described or means for testing it are inadequate. -- Jaldhar H. Vyas [EMAIL PROTECTED] La Salle Debain - http://www.braincells.com/debian/
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 09:39:50PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote: On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 09:48:13PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote: The alternative is that there is nothing interesting here. It's not a very interesting alternative. Occam's razor says we go with it until we have a reason to do otherwise. Translation: LALALALALA! I'M NOT LISTENING! [No response, I just think I'll quote this in case anybody missed it] I hypothesise that you are a gerbil. Gerbils can't form rational arguments. Therefore you are wrong. Your burden-of-proof notion is completely backwards, and the above is an example of why. The burder of proof rests upon the one who wants to introduce an assertion. I can demonstrate evidence that I'm not a gerbil quite handily. No you can't, because you're a gerbil and gerbils can't form rational arguments. It is logically impossible for you to disprove this, because your burden-of-proof notion is backwards (in formal logic, you've allowed a falsehood to be introduced, so it is impossible to draw any conclusions within the current situation). On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 08:21:08AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: You have an alternate theory explaining the low incidence of women in male dominated activities like Debian, free software coding, coding in general, and CS overall? Sunspots. It's at least as convincing. Manoj was talking about free software coding, and CS overall in addition to Debian as a whole. He asked for an alternative. His suggestion was that there was only one possible explanation, which is clearly false. This isn't very interesting, it's foundational logic. The HOWTO you reference also deals with the larger scope as an example. Which is apropos of nothing. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 07:06:50PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 03:35:03PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote: On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 08:21:08AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: You have an alternate theory explaining the low incidence of women in male dominated activities like Debian, free software coding, coding in general, and CS overall? Sunspots. It's at least as convincing. If that is the best theory you can advance, forgive me if I prefer to stick to one with some scientific backing, and which tends to actually explain the empirically observed data. The pattern of behaviour, and the pattern of inclusion is not random, so your theory is a very poor fit. You're welcome to pick a default assumption (although I'll point out that assumptions invariably play people false). But you can't claim that it's true because it's the only possibility. Nor can you claim that it's true because it's been proven, because it hasn't. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 09:05:27AM +, Peter Samuelson wrote: [Andrew Suffield] Psychology and sociology are fuzzy sciences for the most part, where very little is proven. That does not mean that the standards for proof should be lowered, it means that their conclusions should be treated with the usual skepticism and not as things which have been conclusively proven. As may be. All your pontificating about data and proof is a fine way to avoid the actual issue under discussion, which is that a social system (the Debian Project) is exhibiting the same symptom (fairly extreme under-representation of women) as other systems which have been studied and are similar to the Project in other ways. I think it is more than reasonable to entertain the possibility that a similar cause is, in the present case, responsible for a similar result. And even to take action based on that assumption. Or do you always wait for perfect information before making a decision? We can't be sure whether this orange-haired person likes to eat babies or not. He probably does, lock him up. If I have to make a guess then I do, but I don't pretend it's anything more than a (possibly educated) guess. If you want to promote some action based on your guess - go ahead. But don't try to pretend it's based on anything but a guess. See how far you get. Correlation across a large number of systems does *not* demonstrate that the same thing will happen in any individual system. Is this just a game to you? Did you think there were judges on the sidelines keeping notes about who was using the wrong standard of proof, or making unwarranted assumptions? It's not a game to the ones who started this thread. It's not a game, therefore the rules (of logic) do not apply. I don't accept that. I can't imagine why anybody would. Logic is for dealing with the real world. If you'll recall, this started with a simple question about what can and should be done about the gender imbalance in the Project. Surely it would be more productive to search for hypotheses about the causes for this imbalance, than to offer silly theories like sunspots to illustrate your point that, because the science is inexact, the real causes can never be known. That was not my point. My direct point was that the argument There are no other possible explanations was false. My indirect point was that the fact that the causes cannot be known does not justify action based upon a guess as to what those causes are. Any of those would be preferable to insufficient data, therefore we have no choice but to ignore the issues. I don't know where you pulled that one from. I'll guess that you got it from Manoj, though. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
name one where it didn't happen, and you'll actually make a point, otherwise, instead of making up these weird arguments against something, how about partitcipating in the discussion instead of making up a totally irrelevant one? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
[Thomas Bushnell, BSG] I agree that Debian has a problem in this area and that it's worth worrying about and trying to fix. I do not think that Helen has given us any information about it; she is guessing at what men usually do, and imputing that to us, and guessing about how women feel. That may be true. However, you may have overlooked Erinn Clark's post to this thread, which, fortuitously, has just the sort of information you seem to be asking for. I have little to add to her post, which you can find here: http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2004/debian-project-200403/msg00086.html All I can really add is that she's not making this stuff up. I've been on freenode::#debian for a few months now and I've seen the harassment, the unwelcome advances, the juvenile behavior, the abuse, that she's talking about. It's not all sexual in nature, to be sure - the #debian channel sometimes drives away potential *male* users as well. WRT mailing list behavior, I don't have a lot of grounds to comment - I haven't been actively following the lists for nearly as long. Peter signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Peter Samuelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think it is more than reasonable to entertain the possibility that a similar cause is, in the present case, responsible for a similar result. And even to take action based on that assumption. Or do you always wait for perfect information before making a decision? You are surely right here. There is a parodoxical situation, in that the following are both true in my opinion: 1) The bullying that goes on in Debian is off-putting to a much greater percentage of women than men, and we must fix it if we want to increase the number of women who want to participate, and 2) Despite the truth of (1), it is a bad stereotype for any given woman to assume that Debian will bully her because just she is a woman and that Debian is mostly men. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
We can't be sure whether this orange-haired person likes to eat babies or not. He probably does, lock him up. If I have to make a guess then I do, but I don't pretend it's anything more than a (possibly educated) guess. If you want to promote some action based on your guess - go ahead. But don't try to pretend it's based on anything but a guess. See how far you get. There are actions less severe than locking someone up, and there are certainly approaches we can try that are appropriate when based on educated guesses. Hell, this is done in the real world all the time - outside the context of pure mathematics there is precious little that can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. b. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Peter Samuelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That may be true. However, you may have overlooked Erinn Clark's post to this thread, which, fortuitously, has just the sort of information you seem to be asking for. By no means would I ever say that the evidence isn't forthcoming. I've seen it first hand myself. All I said was that, from Helen's post, it sounded as if she were engaging in some negative stereotyping herself. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Please at least quote the post you are responding to. You don't seem to have the proper headers set, at least mutt is not able to thread your posting. Thus, I am completely unable to tell what you are talking about. Michael my bad, i was using a rather crippled mailer, and not my usual mutt, as i am not subbed to the lists (-vote and -project). /me hides -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
[Andrew Suffield] We can't be sure whether this orange-haired person likes to eat babies or not. He probably does, lock him up. Not that a baby-eating example isn't a bit loaded ... but ok, I'll run with it: Many orange-haired people have been observed to eat babies. Here we have an orange-haired person, and babies keep disappearing. While there is still some argument on the point of whether or not it is acceptible to keep losing our babies, most of us agree that this is a Bad Thing. Maybe it is time to take steps to keep the babies away from the orange-haired person, you know, see if that makes a difference. If you want to promote some action based on your guess - go ahead. But don't try to pretend it's based on anything but a guess. See how far you get. I'm perfectly happy to suggest courses of action based on guesses backed by anecdotal evidence but not firmly proven. I'm not doing so at this time, because I'm not the one with the ideas. Is this just a game to you? Did you think there were judges on the sidelines keeping notes about who was using the wrong standard of proof, or making unwarranted assumptions? It's not a game to the ones who started this thread. It's not a game, therefore the rules (of logic) do not apply. More like - there comes a point where calling people on the carpet for what amount to technicalities is counter-productive and useless. If you're discussing going out for beer with a few friends, do you make them follow Robert's Rules of Order? My direct point was that the argument There are no other possible explanations was false. I think that's easy enough to concede. In fact, I don't remember seeing it argued otherwise. So, what alternative explanations have been offered? Occam's Razor would seem to rule out the effects of sunspots. My indirect point was that the fact that the causes cannot be known does not justify action based upon a guess as to what those causes are. Action is justified on a basis weighted by the likelihood that the theory suggesting the action is correct (i.e., the action is likely to be effective), and by the urgency of the desire to address the problem. The fact that the cause of a problem cannot be known for sure does not by itself justify action, but it also does not justify *inaction*. In other words, I would suggest that the burden of proof does not, in cases such as these, rest solely with the affirmative. If you would argue that it does -- and simultaneously that hypotheses concerning social structures cannot really be proven -- then by implication, changes should not be made to social structures at all, and you may as well come right out and say it. I could be reading you wrong, but that seems to be the gist of your earlier verbiage about not lowering one's standard for proof. But this is silly anyway. At the point I jumped in, this had become a meta-debate; now it seems to be turning to a meta-meta-debate. Since, amazingly enough, I've got other things I could be doing with my time, I'll go ahead and let you have the last word here, if you want it. Peter signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 09:05:27AM +, Peter Samuelson wrote: Is this just a game to you? I wondered how many messages it would take for someone to notice. -- 2. That which causes joy or happiness. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 09:39:50PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote: I can demonstrate evidence that I'm not a gerbil quite handily. On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 08:08:49AM +, Andrew Suffield wrote: No you can't, because you're a gerbil and gerbils can't form rational arguments. If it's true that gerbils can't form rational arguments (not much doubt that they can't express rational arguments, but that's not your claim), then the mere ability to form rational arguments (or, even better express those arguments) qualifies as demonstrating evidence. It is logically impossible for you to disprove this, because your burden-of-proof notion is backwards (in formal logic, you've allowed a falsehood to be introduced, so it is impossible to draw any conclusions within the current situation). You're confusing science with math. Science uses math as a tool of thought, but they are very different. It's not very hard to find descriptions of science, if you care to study up on what it is. Here's something google pulled up, ferinstance: http://www.srikant.org/core/node2.html [Though, practically speaking, I don't know of any way to falsify string theory.] That said, this thread no longer has anything to do with asking candidates any question. [Note the subject line.] -- Raul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 11:55:57AM +, Andrew Suffield wrote: On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 11:22:06AM +, Peter Samuelson wrote: Not that a baby-eating example isn't a bit loaded ... but ok, I'll run with it: Many orange-haired people have been observed to eat babies. ... ... I think you just made my point better than I did. I don't want to live in that society. I don't either. -- Raul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
* Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004-03-04 01:36]: OK. Last I heard, irc.debian.org #debian is a project resource. Here is an example of how women are treated in Debian; and helix tells me that this is how they are treated all the time [...] However, #debian on irc.debian.org has become a very unfriendly place, and not just for women. I've asked the #debian channel operators to comment on this and to explain how they'll handle situations like these in the future, and David B Harris kindly wrote the response below. From: David B Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] As background for this mail, I'd like to state just a few things for the record. Though I'm currently the #debian Contact (the person titularly responsible for an IRC channel), I am not the most active of the #debian channel operators. While this mail has my name on it, it was provided to other senior channel operators for review and editing before it was sent. The contents of this mail are primarily a written record of a set of conversation which occured in #debian-devel, and basically document the policies #debian channel operators have held themselves to for as long as I can remember. It was prepared at the request of the Debian Project Leader. On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 01:36:39 -0600 Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I should say, though, that the ops did handle the situation, and promised to take action if they notice such behaviour in the future. The policy is that anyone deliberately offensive to anyone else , or persistent about non-delibrate offensiveness, will be removed from the channel. Indeed. The policy of #debian channel operators is and always has been that anybody being deliberately offensive to another (or, within reason, somebody *not* being deliberately offensive, but being persistent about it), will be banned. In this context, banned means unable to contribute to further conversation in the channel. Such measures are, however, typically a last resort - we live in a large world, and something said in an innocent manner might be found amazingly offensive by another. As such, #debian channel operators attempt to encourage good communication between all parties, so that further incidents might be avoided. Only when this is unsuccessful, for whatever reason, are technical measures put in place. They are not meant as punishment, nor are they intended to satisfy the desire any one individual. Rather, they're put in place in order to preserve the usefulness of the channel to others. Those technical measures are rarely permanent, however - oftentimes, people simply need to cool off. Only repeated offenses will result in a permanent ban, in most cases. However, #debian on irc.debian.org has become a very unfriendly place, and not just for women. I agree that the usefulness of the channel to others has been declining recently. There are currently 12 active channel operators, and it's a very rare occasion that there are *no* channel operators watching the channel at any one time. However, the users of #debian are wide and varied, and often have differing opinions. While one may wish to jump up and ban any who are being particularly forceful in the expression of their opinion, we shouldn't fail to recognise the possibly beneficial end-results of any given debate. One of the things which we attempt to do is to encourage communication, both amongst users and between users and channel operators. The #debian channel operators are generally quite skilled at lowering the temperature of a given conversation, and have enough experience to determine to a reasonable degree the intent of the various participants. Misunderstandings abound, and often it takes a bit of experience to sort through the mess. What's more, it is often the case that a channel operator simply stepping in and taking care of the problem is counter-productive; many people react negatively to such shows of force. As such, channel operators walk a fine line between acting as mediator, enforcer, policy-maker, and passive bystander. By far the best course of action for anybody who feels that they have been offended (whether deliberately or not) is to simply tell those who offended them what they were offended *by*. If the results thereafter aren't satisfactory to any one individual, contacting one of the channel operators is the appropriate course of action. The list of channel operators is available via /msg chanserv access #debian list, but most #debian regulars are already familiar with the most active from that list. -- David B Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Martin Michlmayr [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 06:31:42PM +0100, Gergely Nagy wrote: [lots of partially amusing but mostly silly text snipped] Ooooh! There's another idea! We can feed Gone with the Wind (iirc that was the title), th script of Titanic and other stuff to a megahal, put a tama frontend on it, dress it up as a girl, then feed it our constitution, policy and -devel without the flamewars, and we have a new, female developer! You do of course realise that -devel without the flamewars would consist purely of people sending unsubscribe requests to the wrong place and spam, right? And having a devel with a vocabulary solely consisting of SPAM-phrases and the word unsubscribe might not be very useful. ;-) Regards: David Weinehall -- /) David Weinehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] /) Northern lights wander (\ // Maintainer of the v2.0 kernel // Dance across the winter sky // \) http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/(/ Full colour fire (/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:07:39 +0100 Josip Rodin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 09:05:27AM +, Peter Samuelson wrote: Is this just a game to you? I wondered how many messages it would take for someone to notice. I've always wondered why so many threads in Debian ended up being flamewars about correct debating etiquette, style, and reason :) -- Aruing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while, you realise the pig is enjoying it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 01:41:32AM -0500, Raul Miller wrote: On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 09:27:30AM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote: meekness isn't about bullying. it's (partially) about perceiving bullying whether it's really there or not. it is a disability which varies in severity from being mildly shy to being socially crippled..it is not the fault, or responsibility, of non-meek people, any more than fully-abled people are at fault for the disabled. Except, for example, when the perceived bullying is really there, that's obviously the fault of those doing the bullying. yes, bullying happens too. but meekness happens whether there is any actual bullying or not. craig -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Craig Sanders [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: yes, bullying happens too. but meekness happens whether there is any actual bullying or not. Meekness isn't harmful, nor does it ever justify your bullying. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 09:27:30AM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote: meekness isn't about bullying. it's (partially) about perceiving bullying whether it's really there or not. it is a disability which varies in severity from being mildly shy to being socially crippled..it is not the fault, or responsibility, of non-meek people, any more than fully-abled people are at fault for the disabled. Except, for example, when the perceived bullying is really there, that's obviously the fault of those doing the bullying. -- Raul
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 09:39:50PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote: On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 09:48:13PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote: The alternative is that there is nothing interesting here. It's not a very interesting alternative. Occam's razor says we go with it until we have a reason to do otherwise. Translation: LALALALALA! I'M NOT LISTENING! [No response, I just think I'll quote this in case anybody missed it] I hypothesise that you are a gerbil. Gerbils can't form rational arguments. Therefore you are wrong. Your burden-of-proof notion is completely backwards, and the above is an example of why. The burder of proof rests upon the one who wants to introduce an assertion. I can demonstrate evidence that I'm not a gerbil quite handily. No you can't, because you're a gerbil and gerbils can't form rational arguments. It is logically impossible for you to disprove this, because your burden-of-proof notion is backwards (in formal logic, you've allowed a falsehood to be introduced, so it is impossible to draw any conclusions within the current situation). On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 08:21:08AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: You have an alternate theory explaining the low incidence of women in male dominated activities like Debian, free software coding, coding in general, and CS overall? Sunspots. It's at least as convincing. Manoj was talking about free software coding, and CS overall in addition to Debian as a whole. He asked for an alternative. His suggestion was that there was only one possible explanation, which is clearly false. This isn't very interesting, it's foundational logic. The HOWTO you reference also deals with the larger scope as an example. Which is apropos of nothing. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 06:26:44PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 19:58:03 +, Andrew Suffield [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 01:16:43PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote: On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 03:35:03PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote: On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 08:21:08AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: You have an alternate theory explaining the low incidence of women in male dominated activities like Debian, free software coding, coding in general, and CS overall? Sunspots. It's at least as convincing. Way to completely ignore the problem, as well as testimonials by those involved. What a productive attitude. The plural of anecdote is not data. Yes, very clever. And also very silly. When collated in large numbers, anecdotes _do_ become data -- ask any psychologist or sociologist. No, I refuse to accept this. Psychology and sociology are fuzzy sciences for the most part, where very little is proven. That does not mean that the standards for proof should be lowered, it means that their conclusions should be treated with the usual skepticism and not as things which have been conclusively proven. If somebody were to demonstrate that the majority of people with orange hair liked to eat babies, then it might be reasonable to allocate more resources to watch them more closely. It would not be reasonable to assume that because a given person had orange hair, they liked to eat babies. Most things that come out of sociology and psychology take this form - they can give you probably, or N% of this group will do X, but they can't usually give you true in this particular case. This is the difference between proof and circumstancial evidence. And there have indeed been documented studies of the barriers women face breaking into male dominated institutions and workplaces -- and debian certainly qualifies as the former. That doesn't prove anything. It's not even particularly convincing. Debian is like another system where this happened, therefore it will behave in the same way, because most other ones did. That just indicates there is a plausible argument with a not-insignificant probability of being accurate, it does not intrinsically indicate that the argument is accurate. Correlation across a large number of systems does *not* demonstrate that the same thing will happen in any individual system. What about all the systems where it didn't happen? -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 07:06:50PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 03:35:03PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote: On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 08:21:08AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: You have an alternate theory explaining the low incidence of women in male dominated activities like Debian, free software coding, coding in general, and CS overall? Sunspots. It's at least as convincing. If that is the best theory you can advance, forgive me if I prefer to stick to one with some scientific backing, and which tends to actually explain the empirically observed data. The pattern of behaviour, and the pattern of inclusion is not random, so your theory is a very poor fit. You're welcome to pick a default assumption (although I'll point out that assumptions invariably play people false). But you can't claim that it's true because it's the only possibility. Nor can you claim that it's true because it's been proven, because it hasn't. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 08:39:22AM +, Andrew Suffield wrote: The plural of anecdote is not data. Yes, very clever. And also very silly. When collated in large numbers, anecdotes _do_ become data -- ask any psychologist or sociologist. No, I refuse to accept this. Psychology and sociology are fuzzy sciences for the most part, where very little is proven. That does not mean that the standards for proof should be lowered, it means that their conclusions should be treated with the usual skepticism and not as things which have been conclusively proven. Do you have any data to prove this, or is this just a wild hypothesis? Pasc -- Pascal Hakim+61 4 0341 1672
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 09:05:27AM +, Peter Samuelson wrote: [Andrew Suffield] Psychology and sociology are fuzzy sciences for the most part, where very little is proven. That does not mean that the standards for proof should be lowered, it means that their conclusions should be treated with the usual skepticism and not as things which have been conclusively proven. As may be. All your pontificating about data and proof is a fine way to avoid the actual issue under discussion, which is that a social system (the Debian Project) is exhibiting the same symptom (fairly extreme under-representation of women) as other systems which have been studied and are similar to the Project in other ways. I think it is more than reasonable to entertain the possibility that a similar cause is, in the present case, responsible for a similar result. And even to take action based on that assumption. Or do you always wait for perfect information before making a decision? We can't be sure whether this orange-haired person likes to eat babies or not. He probably does, lock him up. If I have to make a guess then I do, but I don't pretend it's anything more than a (possibly educated) guess. If you want to promote some action based on your guess - go ahead. But don't try to pretend it's based on anything but a guess. See how far you get. Correlation across a large number of systems does *not* demonstrate that the same thing will happen in any individual system. Is this just a game to you? Did you think there were judges on the sidelines keeping notes about who was using the wrong standard of proof, or making unwarranted assumptions? It's not a game to the ones who started this thread. It's not a game, therefore the rules (of logic) do not apply. I don't accept that. I can't imagine why anybody would. Logic is for dealing with the real world. If you'll recall, this started with a simple question about what can and should be done about the gender imbalance in the Project. Surely it would be more productive to search for hypotheses about the causes for this imbalance, than to offer silly theories like sunspots to illustrate your point that, because the science is inexact, the real causes can never be known. That was not my point. My direct point was that the argument There are no other possible explanations was false. My indirect point was that the fact that the causes cannot be known does not justify action based upon a guess as to what those causes are. Any of those would be preferable to insufficient data, therefore we have no choice but to ignore the issues. I don't know where you pulled that one from. I'll guess that you got it from Manoj, though. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
name one where it didn't happen, and you'll actually make a point, otherwise, instead of making up these weird arguments against something, how about partitcipating in the discussion instead of making up a totally irrelevant one?
Re: Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 09:27:09AM +, simon raven wrote: name one where it didn't happen, and you'll actually make a point, otherwise, instead of making up these weird arguments against something, how about partitcipating in the discussion instead of making up a totally irrelevant one? Please at least quote the post you are responding to. You don't seem to have the proper headers set, at least mutt is not able to thread your posting. Thus, I am completely unable to tell what you are talking about. Michael -- Michael Banck Debian Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.advogato.org/person/mbanck/diary.html
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
We can't be sure whether this orange-haired person likes to eat babies or not. He probably does, lock him up. If I have to make a guess then I do, but I don't pretend it's anything more than a (possibly educated) guess. If you want to promote some action based on your guess - go ahead. But don't try to pretend it's based on anything but a guess. See how far you get. There are actions less severe than locking someone up, and there are certainly approaches we can try that are appropriate when based on educated guesses. Hell, this is done in the real world all the time - outside the context of pure mathematics there is precious little that can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. b.
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Peter Samuelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That may be true. However, you may have overlooked Erinn Clark's post to this thread, which, fortuitously, has just the sort of information you seem to be asking for. By no means would I ever say that the evidence isn't forthcoming. I've seen it first hand myself. All I said was that, from Helen's post, it sounded as if she were engaging in some negative stereotyping herself. Thomas
Re: Re: Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Please at least quote the post you are responding to. You don't seem to have the proper headers set, at least mutt is not able to thread your posting. Thus, I am completely unable to tell what you are talking about. Michael my bad, i was using a rather crippled mailer, and not my usual mutt, as i am not subbed to the lists (-vote and -project). /me hides
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 11:22:06AM +, Peter Samuelson wrote: [Andrew Suffield] We can't be sure whether this orange-haired person likes to eat babies or not. He probably does, lock him up. Not that a baby-eating example isn't a bit loaded ... but ok, I'll run with it: Many orange-haired people have been observed to eat babies. Here we have an orange-haired person, and babies keep disappearing. While there is still some argument on the point of whether or not it is acceptible to keep losing our babies, most of us agree that this is a Bad Thing. Maybe it is time to take steps to keep the babies away from the orange-haired person, you know, see if that makes a difference. I think you just made my point better than I did. I don't want to live in that society. It was s/gamers/orange hair/ and s/violent/like to eat babies/, btw. Is this just a game to you? Did you think there were judges on the sidelines keeping notes about who was using the wrong standard of proof, or making unwarranted assumptions? It's not a game to the ones who started this thread. It's not a game, therefore the rules (of logic) do not apply. More like - there comes a point where calling people on the carpet for what amount to technicalities is counter-productive and useless. So an invalid argument is just a technicality? It's okay to be wrong? -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 09:05:27AM +, Peter Samuelson wrote: Is this just a game to you? I wondered how many messages it would take for someone to notice. -- 2. That which causes joy or happiness.
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 09:39:50PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote: I can demonstrate evidence that I'm not a gerbil quite handily. On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 08:08:49AM +, Andrew Suffield wrote: No you can't, because you're a gerbil and gerbils can't form rational arguments. If it's true that gerbils can't form rational arguments (not much doubt that they can't express rational arguments, but that's not your claim), then the mere ability to form rational arguments (or, even better express those arguments) qualifies as demonstrating evidence. It is logically impossible for you to disprove this, because your burden-of-proof notion is backwards (in formal logic, you've allowed a falsehood to be introduced, so it is impossible to draw any conclusions within the current situation). You're confusing science with math. Science uses math as a tool of thought, but they are very different. It's not very hard to find descriptions of science, if you care to study up on what it is. Here's something google pulled up, ferinstance: http://www.srikant.org/core/node2.html [Though, practically speaking, I don't know of any way to falsify string theory.] That said, this thread no longer has anything to do with asking candidates any question. [Note the subject line.] -- Raul
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 11:55:57AM +, Andrew Suffield wrote: On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 11:22:06AM +, Peter Samuelson wrote: Not that a baby-eating example isn't a bit loaded ... but ok, I'll run with it: Many orange-haired people have been observed to eat babies. ... ... I think you just made my point better than I did. I don't want to live in that society. I don't either. -- Raul
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
* Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004-03-04 01:36]: OK. Last I heard, irc.debian.org #debian is a project resource. Here is an example of how women are treated in Debian; and helix tells me that this is how they are treated all the time [...] However, #debian on irc.debian.org has become a very unfriendly place, and not just for women. I've asked the #debian channel operators to comment on this and to explain how they'll handle situations like these in the future, and David B Harris kindly wrote the response below. From: David B Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] As background for this mail, I'd like to state just a few things for the record. Though I'm currently the #debian Contact (the person titularly responsible for an IRC channel), I am not the most active of the #debian channel operators. While this mail has my name on it, it was provided to other senior channel operators for review and editing before it was sent. The contents of this mail are primarily a written record of a set of conversation which occured in #debian-devel, and basically document the policies #debian channel operators have held themselves to for as long as I can remember. It was prepared at the request of the Debian Project Leader. On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 01:36:39 -0600 Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I should say, though, that the ops did handle the situation, and promised to take action if they notice such behaviour in the future. The policy is that anyone deliberately offensive to anyone else , or persistent about non-delibrate offensiveness, will be removed from the channel. Indeed. The policy of #debian channel operators is and always has been that anybody being deliberately offensive to another (or, within reason, somebody *not* being deliberately offensive, but being persistent about it), will be banned. In this context, banned means unable to contribute to further conversation in the channel. Such measures are, however, typically a last resort - we live in a large world, and something said in an innocent manner might be found amazingly offensive by another. As such, #debian channel operators attempt to encourage good communication between all parties, so that further incidents might be avoided. Only when this is unsuccessful, for whatever reason, are technical measures put in place. They are not meant as punishment, nor are they intended to satisfy the desire any one individual. Rather, they're put in place in order to preserve the usefulness of the channel to others. Those technical measures are rarely permanent, however - oftentimes, people simply need to cool off. Only repeated offenses will result in a permanent ban, in most cases. However, #debian on irc.debian.org has become a very unfriendly place, and not just for women. I agree that the usefulness of the channel to others has been declining recently. There are currently 12 active channel operators, and it's a very rare occasion that there are *no* channel operators watching the channel at any one time. However, the users of #debian are wide and varied, and often have differing opinions. While one may wish to jump up and ban any who are being particularly forceful in the expression of their opinion, we shouldn't fail to recognise the possibly beneficial end-results of any given debate. One of the things which we attempt to do is to encourage communication, both amongst users and between users and channel operators. The #debian channel operators are generally quite skilled at lowering the temperature of a given conversation, and have enough experience to determine to a reasonable degree the intent of the various participants. Misunderstandings abound, and often it takes a bit of experience to sort through the mess. What's more, it is often the case that a channel operator simply stepping in and taking care of the problem is counter-productive; many people react negatively to such shows of force. As such, channel operators walk a fine line between acting as mediator, enforcer, policy-maker, and passive bystander. By far the best course of action for anybody who feels that they have been offended (whether deliberately or not) is to simply tell those who offended them what they were offended *by*. If the results thereafter aren't satisfactory to any one individual, contacting one of the channel operators is the appropriate course of action. The list of channel operators is available via /msg chanserv access #debian list, but most #debian regulars are already familiar with the most active from that list. -- David B Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Martin Michlmayr [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 06:31:42PM +0100, Gergely Nagy wrote: [lots of partially amusing but mostly silly text snipped] Ooooh! There's another idea! We can feed Gone with the Wind (iirc that was the title), th script of Titanic and other stuff to a megahal, put a tama frontend on it, dress it up as a girl, then feed it our constitution, policy and -devel without the flamewars, and we have a new, female developer! You do of course realise that -devel without the flamewars would consist purely of people sending unsubscribe requests to the wrong place and spam, right? And having a devel with a vocabulary solely consisting of SPAM-phrases and the word unsubscribe might not be very useful. ;-) Regards: David Weinehall -- /) David Weinehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] /) Northern lights wander (\ // Maintainer of the v2.0 kernel // Dance across the winter sky // \) http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/(/ Full colour fire (/
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 13:07:39 +0100 Josip Rodin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 09:05:27AM +, Peter Samuelson wrote: Is this just a game to you? I wondered how many messages it would take for someone to notice. I've always wondered why so many threads in Debian ended up being flamewars about correct debating etiquette, style, and reason :) -- Aruing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while, you realise the pig is enjoying it.
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 01:41:32AM -0500, Raul Miller wrote: On Sat, Mar 06, 2004 at 09:27:30AM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote: meekness isn't about bullying. it's (partially) about perceiving bullying whether it's really there or not. it is a disability which varies in severity from being mildly shy to being socially crippled..it is not the fault, or responsibility, of non-meek people, any more than fully-abled people are at fault for the disabled. Except, for example, when the perceived bullying is really there, that's obviously the fault of those doing the bullying. yes, bullying happens too. but meekness happens whether there is any actual bullying or not. craig
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Craig Sanders [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: yes, bullying happens too. but meekness happens whether there is any actual bullying or not. Meekness isn't harmful, nor does it ever justify your bullying. Thomas
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 02:07:06AM +, Andrew Suffield wrote: On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 10:04:15AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: http://www.linux.org/docs/ldp/howto/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/x28.html#AEN41 Hey, I remember that incident, and the author of the HOWTO has blown it out of all proportion. Try talking to the people involved. Huh? She modified the web archives? Michael -- Michael Banck Debian Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.advogato.org/person/mbanck/diary.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 09:37:43AM +0100, Michael Banck wrote: On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 02:07:06AM +, Andrew Suffield wrote: On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 10:04:15AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: http://www.linux.org/docs/ldp/howto/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/x28.html#AEN41 Hey, I remember that incident, and the author of the HOWTO has blown it out of all proportion. Try talking to the people involved. Huh? She modified the web archives? Gee, surprise, these two responses are enough to drive her away the result of their actions is that women are leaving Linux Bull. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 09:25:49 +, Andrew Suffield [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 09:37:43AM +0100, Michael Banck wrote: On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 02:07:06AM +, Andrew Suffield wrote: On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 10:04:15AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: http://www.linux.org/docs/ldp/howto/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/x28.html#AEN41 Hey, I remember that incident, and the author of the HOWTO has blown it out of all proportion. Try talking to the people involved. Huh? She modified the web archives? Gee, surprise, these two responses are enough to drive her away the result of their actions is that women are leaving Linux Bull. You have an alternate theory explaining the low incidence of women in male dominated activities like Debian, free software coding, coding in general, and CS overall? Also, it is easy for those not in the target group to dismiss the reports experiences that members of the target groups are having, but not, in my eyes, with much credibility. manoj -- If all be true that I do think, There be five reasons why one should drink; Good friends, good wine, or being dry, Or lest we should be by-and-by, Or any other reason why. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 20:15:25 -0500, Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Perhaps we need to reconsider our official recognition of Freenode's debian as a Project resource. Fair enough. Do you think that hosting it on any other irc network is likely to change matters, though? The issue seems to be the people who flock to the channel; and unless there are volunteers to help regulate the activity on the channel, based on some ogjective policy/guidelines, I am afraid the same situation would soon arise no matter _which_ network hosts the channel. Of course, we could wash our hands of the irc channels in the first place, but having restarted visiting #debian, I can say that a lot of people are being helped there as well. manoj -- On-line, adj.: The idea that a human being should always be accessible to a computer. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 07:34:11 +1100, Craig Sanders [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: insightful, except for one important detail. the situation does not discriminate against women, in particular, it discriminates against a particular personality trait - meekness. meekness is found in both men and women, and meek men are discouraged from participating in debian (and other groups) just as much as women are. men suffer from meekness and have to go through all the stress and trauma of overcoming it, just as women do. i think one of the major difference in responses to meekness is that men are taught that being meek is 'wrong' for them, while women are taught that being meek is 'proper' - so men are more likely to fight it directly when they see it in themselves because it makes them feel ashamed and inadequate. Quite. But you too are ignoring one detail: that behavioral trait is expressed preferentially in one gender; perhaps due to cultural indoctrination, perhaps due to inherent biology. The issue was not whether one should welcome meekness. The issue was whether we think that the missing representatiopn of 51% of humanity lessens Debian as a project, and whether we feel that is a situation that needs be rectified. We may collectively decide that changing the modus operandi is more trouble than the benefits of this added participation are worth. I do not believe so, but I speak only for myself here. manoj -- Love is always open arms. With arms open you allow love to come and go as it wills, freely, for it will do so anyway. If you close your arms about love you'll find you are left only holding yourself. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 08:21:08AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: You have an alternate theory explaining the low incidence of women in male dominated activities like Debian, free software coding, coding in general, and CS overall? Sunspots. It's at least as convincing. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 08:26:32AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 20:15:25 -0500, Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Perhaps we need to reconsider our official recognition of Freenode's debian as a Project resource. Fair enough. Do you think that hosting it on any other irc network is likely to change matters, though? You have to realise that host on another network is a euphemism for hostile takeover [by me/us] because I think I could run it better. Both are completely insane notions. A channel is not formed from a declaration by some random person, it is comprised entirely from the people that occupy it. You can't move a channel, and you can't take it over, all you can do is persuade the people in it to (a) join a different channel, and (b) leave the original one. That's an exercise in herding pigeons. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 03:35:03PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote: On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 08:21:08AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: You have an alternate theory explaining the low incidence of women in male dominated activities like Debian, free software coding, coding in general, and CS overall? Sunspots. It's at least as convincing. Way to completely ignore the problem, as well as testimonials by those involved. What a productive attitude. - David Nusinow -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 01:16:43PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote: On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 03:35:03PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote: On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 08:21:08AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: You have an alternate theory explaining the low incidence of women in male dominated activities like Debian, free software coding, coding in general, and CS overall? Sunspots. It's at least as convincing. Way to completely ignore the problem, as well as testimonials by those involved. What a productive attitude. The plural of anecdote is not data. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 11:25:59AM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So, Helen is kind enough to summarise her views on why she doesn't participate in the project as fully as she might, and she's called a flake, mentally unstable and sexist for her beliefs. Well, she said that she doesn't participate because boys will be mean to her. Sounds sexist to me. There are other ways of responding to that sort of claim than accusing people of being sexist, flakey or mentally unstable. That you've chosen that particular way says something about you, and says something about the project's culture. I don't think she's flaky or mentally unstable. I think she approached a concrete group of people by assuming they would fit a stereotype she had in mind, and that's a bad thing to do. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Quite. But you too are ignoring one detail: that behavioral trait is expressed preferentially in one gender; perhaps due to cultural indoctrination, perhaps due to inherent biology. I have no idea if this is true. Moreover, I don't think it matters much. We should stop penalizing meek people no matter what gender they are. Debian should do less bullying, period. If that has the effect of making some women feel more comfortable here who would not otherwise take part, all the better. The issue was not whether one should welcome meekness. The issue was whether we think that the missing representatiopn of 51% of humanity lessens Debian as a project, and whether we feel that is a situation that needs be rectified. We may collectively decide that changing the modus operandi is more trouble than the benefits of this added participation are worth. I agree with you here, and I agree it's worth the effort to try. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 07:58:03PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote: The plural of anecdote is not data. True, but then what would you suggest as an alternative means of gathering data? Should we stick the users in a set of test tubes, complete with positive and negative controls? I'd rather take what information is out there (including my own observations, and observation is the most critical aspect of data gathering) and use it. - David Nusinow -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 03:08:14PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote: On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 07:58:03PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote: The plural of anecdote is not data. True, but then what would you suggest as an alternative means of gathering data? Should we stick the users in a set of test tubes, complete with positive and negative controls? I'd rather take what information is out there (including my own observations, and observation is the most critical aspect of data gathering) and use it. Absence of evidence is not justification for inventing evidence. If you can't prove something, that doesn't mean you should lower the standards for proof, it means that you can't prove it. The anecdote presented was grossly mischaracterised and not an example of what it claimed to be. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
David Nusinow [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 07:58:03PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote: The plural of anecdote is not data. True, but then what would you suggest as an alternative means of gathering data? Should we stick the users in a set of test tubes, complete with positive and negative controls? I'd rather take what information is out there (including my own observations, and observation is the most critical aspect of data gathering) and use it. I agree that Debian has a problem in this area and that it's worth worrying about and trying to fix. I do not think that Helen has given us any information about it; she is guessing at what men usually do, and imputing that to us, and guessing about how women feel. Not even an anecdote. If we want to solve the problem, we may need to look beyond stereotypes and guesswork. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 09:10:45PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote: There is a massive difference between working assumption and proven. To use plausible arguments in place of proofs, and henceforth to refer to these arguments as proofs was, I believe, originally referring to physics, but it was not intended as an example of what to do. You've still not presented an alternative. The working hypothesis stands simply because that's where the evidence points. The burden of disproving it is on the naysayer. That's what science is, disproving hypotheses by observations. Go for it. The anecdote presented was grossly mischaracterised and not an example of what it claimed to be. There are other anecdotes. Which I was not talking about. Pay attention to the mails you are replying to. You replied to Manoj's mail, which was in the context of the larger discussion. In addition to that, the example you cite is in the HOWTO, which is a document written by a number of women who all share this opinion completely outside of the specifics of the Debian proeject. Your advice goes both ways. - David Nusinow -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
On 05 Mar 2004 13:21:24 -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: David Nusinow [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 07:58:03PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote: The plural of anecdote is not data. True, but then what would you suggest as an alternative means of gathering data? Should we stick the users in a set of test tubes, complete with positive and negative controls? I'd rather take what information is out there (including my own observations, and observation is the most critical aspect of data gathering) and use it. I agree that Debian has a problem in this area and that it's worth worrying about and trying to fix. I do not think that Helen has given us any information about it; she is guessing at what men usually do, and imputing that to us, and guessing about how women feel. Not even an anecdote. I don't think she is guessing. Indeed, the men here have done exactly what she thought they would -- calling her a flake, mentally unstable, inexperieiced, and sexist. And I suspect, from the other reports that I have been getting, that she was merely being polite in not naming names. If we want to solve the problem, we may need to look beyond stereotypes and guesswork. If you pull your head out of the sand for a moment, you'll notice it is not just stereotypes and guesswork; there is a chronic, systemic, harrassment which is the bloody norm. manoj -- Freed by full realisation and at peace, the mind of such a man is at peace, and his speech and action peaceful. 96 Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
