Re: [libreoffice-design] 3 problems
Jaron, I have only a couple trvial macros (that I wrote) and gDocs_2,3.1 extension which has a custom toolbar. the "ghost" buttons do not appear anywhere on the tools-customize menu, so I can't tell you what commands they are associated with. I just noticed that they are momentarily enabled when I load a document, but that little "flash" is too brief to allow me to see any of their detail. They're really mysterious, those buttons. No doubt, disabling the "Save" button provides the kind of "feed-back" you describe, but what's the point of that? It seems to me that it's good to encourage users to save more often (even if the save is sometimes unnecessary). Penalizing the user for doing that sort of thing makes no sense at all. I am surprised you don't see the "close document" button on your Mac, but if you don't, you don't. James On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Jaron Kuppers wrote: > Hi James, > > > On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 4:54 AM, James A. Schulz >wrote: > > > Christoph, > > > > No, I don't see anything in the "new features" that addresses the > problems > > I > > listed. Let me try again: > > > > 1. The "ghost" icons I described in my original post can be see at: > > http://www.wiseware.com/LibreOffice/GhostIcons.jpg > > > The picture is helpful. My PC is dead at the moment but I tried to find > the > same issues with the Mac version of LibO. Unfortunately, I can't duplicate > that problem. Additionally, I can't even find those icons in the standard > toolbar icon set. Three questions: > 1) Do you have any Macros installed? > 2) Do you have custom toolbars? > 3) What commands are the buttons associated with? (Go to > toolbars-customize...) > > > > > 2. Create a new text document, type something, save it. No press the > > ALT-F(ile) key combination. Notice that the "Save" item on the File Menu > > is > > disabled. This means that if you are a user habituated to ALT-F-S, you > end > > up "stuck" in the File Menu and you have to press ESC to return to your > > document. (Yes, I know that users habituated to CTRL-S don't have this > > problem, but that's not the point.) Why penalize users by requiring this > > extra key-stroke just because they tried to save the current document > when > > it didn't need saving. Don't we want to encourage even such > > over-conscientious users to save whenever they happen to think of it. > Real > > writing is an on-again-off-again sort of thing. One spends a good deal > of > > time just staring at whatever paragraph happens to be on the screen at > the > > moment. So the phone right, and you come out of that chance and before > you > > answer the call, you press ALF-F-S just in case you hadn't thought to > save > > before you went into your trance. And when you do that (i.e. press > > ALT-F-S) > > you end up stuck in the menu (and you are annoyed). MS Word does not do > > this. WordPerfect never did it. Why must writer do it. The right thing > > is > > never to disable the "Save" item. The system can avoid wasting its time > by > > simply ignoring the unnecessary save command without "punishing" the user > > for issuing it. > > > I believe the reason LibO disables save is to provide a means of feedback > to > the user that indeed their document is saved. I agree that it is unfair > that the users that use ALT-F-S get "stuck" when they go to save since the > command is disabled when a document is saved. > > > > > 3. Open a new writer document. Notice that the window has the usual "X" > > window close button, but below that, in an otherwise empty bar that runs > > across the screen, there is another, smaller "x' that closes only the > > document. Now open a second document. In this new window, there is only > > the "X" window close button (i.e. the document close button is not where > to > > be seen). True, using the window close button in this second window > > returns > > you to the first document, but why show this inconsistent interface, i.e. > > why not make all document windows identical?. Of course, if LO would > > switch > > to (in my opinion) the vastly preferable Multiple Document Interface, > that > > redesign would likely solve this problem. > > > Once again with my PC on the fritz I cannot duplicate this issue. I > believe > I understand what you are talking about though. I agree that there should > be consistency: > 1) No documents have "close" buttons > 2) All documents have "close" buttons > > Hopefully someone with a PC can duplicate the toolbar problem but please in > the interim let me know what those buttons are. > > Cheers, > Jaron > > > > > > > > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to > design+h...@libreoffice.org > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** > > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list a
Re: [libreoffice-design] 3 problems
Hi James, On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 4:54 AM, James A. Schulz wrote: > Christoph, > > No, I don't see anything in the "new features" that addresses the problems > I > listed. Let me try again: > > 1. The "ghost" icons I described in my original post can be see at: > http://www.wiseware.com/LibreOffice/GhostIcons.jpg > The picture is helpful. My PC is dead at the moment but I tried to find the same issues with the Mac version of LibO. Unfortunately, I can't duplicate that problem. Additionally, I can't even find those icons in the standard toolbar icon set. Three questions: 1) Do you have any Macros installed? 2) Do you have custom toolbars? 3) What commands are the buttons associated with? (Go to toolbars-customize...) > 2. Create a new text document, type something, save it. No press the > ALT-F(ile) key combination. Notice that the "Save" item on the File Menu > is > disabled. This means that if you are a user habituated to ALT-F-S, you end > up "stuck" in the File Menu and you have to press ESC to return to your > document. (Yes, I know that users habituated to CTRL-S don't have this > problem, but that's not the point.) Why penalize users by requiring this > extra key-stroke just because they tried to save the current document when > it didn't need saving. Don't we want to encourage even such > over-conscientious users to save whenever they happen to think of it. Real > writing is an on-again-off-again sort of thing. One spends a good deal of > time just staring at whatever paragraph happens to be on the screen at the > moment. So the phone right, and you come out of that chance and before you > answer the call, you press ALF-F-S just in case you hadn't thought to save > before you went into your trance. And when you do that (i.e. press > ALT-F-S) > you end up stuck in the menu (and you are annoyed). MS Word does not do > this. WordPerfect never did it. Why must writer do it. The right thing > is > never to disable the "Save" item. The system can avoid wasting its time by > simply ignoring the unnecessary save command without "punishing" the user > for issuing it. > I believe the reason LibO disables save is to provide a means of feedback to the user that indeed their document is saved. I agree that it is unfair that the users that use ALT-F-S get "stuck" when they go to save since the command is disabled when a document is saved. > 3. Open a new writer document. Notice that the window has the usual "X" > window close button, but below that, in an otherwise empty bar that runs > across the screen, there is another, smaller "x' that closes only the > document. Now open a second document. In this new window, there is only > the "X" window close button (i.e. the document close button is not where to > be seen). True, using the window close button in this second window > returns > you to the first document, but why show this inconsistent interface, i.e. > why not make all document windows identical?. Of course, if LO would > switch > to (in my opinion) the vastly preferable Multiple Document Interface, that > redesign would likely solve this problem. > Once again with my PC on the fritz I cannot duplicate this issue. I believe I understand what you are talking about though. I agree that there should be consistency: 1) No documents have "close" buttons 2) All documents have "close" buttons Hopefully someone with a PC can duplicate the toolbar problem but please in the interim let me know what those buttons are. Cheers, Jaron > > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] 3 problems
Christoph, No, I don't see anything in the "new features" that addresses the problems I listed. Let me try again: 1. The "ghost" icons I described in my original post can be see at: http://www.wiseware.com/LibreOffice/GhostIcons.jpg 2. Create a new text document, type something, save it. No press the ALT-F(ile) key combination. Notice that the "Save" item on the File Menu is disabled. This means that if you are a user habituated to ALT-F-S, you end up "stuck" in the File Menu and you have to press ESC to return to your document. (Yes, I know that users habituated to CTRL-S don't have this problem, but that's not the point.) Why penalize users by requiring this extra key-stroke just because they tried to save the current document when it didn't need saving. Don't we want to encourage even such over-conscientious users to save whenever they happen to think of it. Real writing is an on-again-off-again sort of thing. One spends a good deal of time just staring at whatever paragraph happens to be on the screen at the moment. So the phone right, and you come out of that chance and before you answer the call, you press ALF-F-S just in case you hadn't thought to save before you went into your trance. And when you do that (i.e. press ALT-F-S) you end up stuck in the menu (and you are annoyed). MS Word does not do this. WordPerfect never did it. Why must writer do it. The right thing is never to disable the "Save" item. The system can avoid wasting its time by simply ignoring the unnecessary save command without "punishing" the user for issuing it. 3. Open a new writer document. Notice that the window has the usual "X" window close button, but below that, in an otherwise empty bar that runs across the screen, there is another, smaller "x' that closes only the document. Now open a second document. In this new window, there is only the "X" window close button (i.e. the document close button is not where to be seen). True, using the window close button in this second window returns you to the first document, but why show this inconsistent interface, i.e. why not make all document windows identical?. Of course, if LO would switch to (in my opinion) the vastly preferable Multiple Document Interface, that redesign would likely solve this problem. Thanks, James On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 12:39 AM, Christoph Noack wrote: > Hi James, > > this looks like a feature that had been added (but it was also new to > me), see "Easier navigation in Writer documents": > http://www.libreoffice.org/download/new-features-and-fixes/ > > Is this what you've been referring to? > > Cheers, > Christoph > > Am Mittwoch, den 26.01.2011, 14:10 +0100 schrieb James A. Schulz: > > Paulo, > > > > I don't have a wiki page, but you can see the jpg at; > > > > http://www.wiseware.com/LibreOffice > > > > James > > > > 2011/1/26 Paulo José > > > > > Hi James! > > > > > > Can you do upload the GhostIcons.jpg image to your wiki user page? The > mail > > > listing don't allow attach, so we can't see these icons. > > > > > > Thank you in advance! :D > > > ~Paulo > > > > > > > > > > > > On 26-01-2011 10:30, James A. Schulz wrote: > > > > > >> 1. The current version shows two "ghost" icons (toward the left) in > the > > >> standard tool bar: > > >> > > >> [image: GhostIcons.jpg] > > >> > > >> These are not disabled items from the list of available buttons; > neither > > >> appears anywhere on that list. So, what are they, and where do they > come > > >> from? > > >> > > >> 2. I tried to make this point (and the next one) with OpenOffice some > > >> years > > >> ago, but it never got any traction with them: it is a mistake to ever > > >> disable the "Save" item on the file menu. Even when a save would be > > >> pointless (because nothing has changed) the user should not be > penalized > > >> (by > > >> requiring an extra key stroke to escape from the file menu) for making > the > > >> unnecessary save. Users should be encouraged to save as often as it > > >> occurs > > >> to them to do so. > > >> > > >> 3. Given that the MDI is written in stone, it is still a mistake to > show > > >> in > > >> the first window a "document close" button, and then not show that > button > > >> in > > >> subsequent windows. This kind of inconsistency only confuses users, > and > > >> makes them less likely to switch to LibreOffice. > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> > > >> JAS > > >> > > >> > > > > > > -- > > > Paulo José O. Amaro > > > Computer Science Student > > > Federal University of São João del-Rei > > > WebDesigner / Linked Empresa Júnior > > > Blogger / casatwain.com > > > > > > -- > > > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to > > > design+h...@libreoffice.org > > > > > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ > > > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to > design+h...@libreoffice.org > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffic
Re: [libreoffice-design] 3 problems
Hi James, this looks like a feature that had been added (but it was also new to me), see "Easier navigation in Writer documents": http://www.libreoffice.org/download/new-features-and-fixes/ Is this what you've been referring to? Cheers, Christoph Am Mittwoch, den 26.01.2011, 14:10 +0100 schrieb James A. Schulz: > Paulo, > > I don't have a wiki page, but you can see the jpg at; > > http://www.wiseware.com/LibreOffice > > James > > 2011/1/26 Paulo José > > > Hi James! > > > > Can you do upload the GhostIcons.jpg image to your wiki user page? The mail > > listing don't allow attach, so we can't see these icons. > > > > Thank you in advance! :D > > ~Paulo > > > > > > > > On 26-01-2011 10:30, James A. Schulz wrote: > > > >> 1. The current version shows two "ghost" icons (toward the left) in the > >> standard tool bar: > >> > >> [image: GhostIcons.jpg] > >> > >> These are not disabled items from the list of available buttons; neither > >> appears anywhere on that list. So, what are they, and where do they come > >> from? > >> > >> 2. I tried to make this point (and the next one) with OpenOffice some > >> years > >> ago, but it never got any traction with them: it is a mistake to ever > >> disable the "Save" item on the file menu. Even when a save would be > >> pointless (because nothing has changed) the user should not be penalized > >> (by > >> requiring an extra key stroke to escape from the file menu) for making the > >> unnecessary save. Users should be encouraged to save as often as it > >> occurs > >> to them to do so. > >> > >> 3. Given that the MDI is written in stone, it is still a mistake to show > >> in > >> the first window a "document close" button, and then not show that button > >> in > >> subsequent windows. This kind of inconsistency only confuses users, and > >> makes them less likely to switch to LibreOffice. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> JAS > >> > >> > > > > -- > > Paulo José O. Amaro > > Computer Science Student > > Federal University of São João del-Rei > > WebDesigner / Linked Empresa Júnior > > Blogger / casatwain.com > > > > -- > > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to > > design+h...@libreoffice.org > > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ > > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** > > > > > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] 3 problems
Paulo, I don't have a wiki page, but you can see the jpg at; http://www.wiseware.com/LibreOffice James 2011/1/26 Paulo José > Hi James! > > Can you do upload the GhostIcons.jpg image to your wiki user page? The mail > listing don't allow attach, so we can't see these icons. > > Thank you in advance! :D > ~Paulo > > > > On 26-01-2011 10:30, James A. Schulz wrote: > >> 1. The current version shows two "ghost" icons (toward the left) in the >> standard tool bar: >> >> [image: GhostIcons.jpg] >> >> These are not disabled items from the list of available buttons; neither >> appears anywhere on that list. So, what are they, and where do they come >> from? >> >> 2. I tried to make this point (and the next one) with OpenOffice some >> years >> ago, but it never got any traction with them: it is a mistake to ever >> disable the "Save" item on the file menu. Even when a save would be >> pointless (because nothing has changed) the user should not be penalized >> (by >> requiring an extra key stroke to escape from the file menu) for making the >> unnecessary save. Users should be encouraged to save as often as it >> occurs >> to them to do so. >> >> 3. Given that the MDI is written in stone, it is still a mistake to show >> in >> the first window a "document close" button, and then not show that button >> in >> subsequent windows. This kind of inconsistency only confuses users, and >> makes them less likely to switch to LibreOffice. >> >> Thanks, >> >> JAS >> >> > > -- > Paulo José O. Amaro > Computer Science Student > Federal University of São João del-Rei > WebDesigner / Linked Empresa Júnior > Blogger / casatwain.com > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to > design+h...@libreoffice.org > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** > > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] 3 problems
Hi James! Can you do upload the GhostIcons.jpg image to your wiki user page? The mail listing don't allow attach, so we can't see these icons. Thank you in advance! :D ~Paulo On 26-01-2011 10:30, James A. Schulz wrote: 1. The current version shows two "ghost" icons (toward the left) in the standard tool bar: [image: GhostIcons.jpg] These are not disabled items from the list of available buttons; neither appears anywhere on that list. So, what are they, and where do they come from? 2. I tried to make this point (and the next one) with OpenOffice some years ago, but it never got any traction with them: it is a mistake to ever disable the "Save" item on the file menu. Even when a save would be pointless (because nothing has changed) the user should not be penalized (by requiring an extra key stroke to escape from the file menu) for making the unnecessary save. Users should be encouraged to save as often as it occurs to them to do so. 3. Given that the MDI is written in stone, it is still a mistake to show in the first window a "document close" button, and then not show that button in subsequent windows. This kind of inconsistency only confuses users, and makes them less likely to switch to LibreOffice. Thanks, JAS -- Paulo José O. Amaro Computer Science Student Federal University of São João del-Rei WebDesigner / Linked Empresa Júnior Blogger / casatwain.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-design] 3 problems
1. The current version shows two "ghost" icons (toward the left) in the standard tool bar: [image: GhostIcons.jpg] These are not disabled items from the list of available buttons; neither appears anywhere on that list. So, what are they, and where do they come from? 2. I tried to make this point (and the next one) with OpenOffice some years ago, but it never got any traction with them: it is a mistake to ever disable the "Save" item on the file menu. Even when a save would be pointless (because nothing has changed) the user should not be penalized (by requiring an extra key stroke to escape from the file menu) for making the unnecessary save. Users should be encouraged to save as often as it occurs to them to do so. 3. Given that the MDI is written in stone, it is still a mistake to show in the first window a "document close" button, and then not show that button in subsequent windows. This kind of inconsistency only confuses users, and makes them less likely to switch to LibreOffice. Thanks, JAS -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
