Re: [libreoffice-design] Are you okay with those new default styles?
Hi all, I see improvements and I see shortcomes. I'm no specialist, just want to point things that jump to my eye. First, I agree with most of Niklas comments. I see some hidden changes we probably wouldn't want included: Calibri font in many styles, odd margins in default page, custom styles (shouldn't these be added to the default ones?). Not sure about the colors choice, but I guess it was a good choice to pick one instead of leaving everything black. I'm also still not sure about outline numbering in the headings. It could serve as advertising the tool, but maybe leave this to Headings 4 and ahead would be best. Headings 2 and 3 are too much used in contexts where we don't want numbering, like Niklas said. I also like the new default fonts. Of less importance, I see that Heading 10 is linked with Heading, while Headings 1-9 are linked with Default, on the same hierarquical level as Heading. Plus, Default style has a 1,5 line spacing (which oddly doesn't show in the Organizer tab), plus a 0,35cm above and below the paragraph. These are just too much. I'd suggest picking only below paragraph. On the other hand, and more importantly, Default style has First Line Indent as next paragraph. We should realize this is a major shift in the paragraph style use (unless I'm plainly mistaken). It would mean people wouldn't be using Default style after the first paragraph, but First Line Indent instead. I believe this is a good thing, as they would be more aware of using styles. First Line Indent is very descriptive so it would help understanding there is a whole plenty of choice of paragraphs (I'm thinking of really layman users, who wouldn't touch a setting that says default), and it's a good style for a text body, so they are not forced to change if they want to stick with direct formatting. I believe this change is a real step forward, and I would really like to see it applied. Cheers to all./ Alexander Wilms skrev 2012-06-12 16:03: Hi everyone, would anyone object against Cedric including this as new default (empty) template: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Avantgarde.ott Alex -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Are you okay with those new default styles?
Hi Alex, On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Alexander Wilms alexander.wi...@zoho.comwrote: Hi everyone, would anyone object against Cedric including this as new default (empty) template: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Avantgarde.ott Based on a quick review, I found a number of problems with it, the biggest of which are the fonts. Calibri is used quite often. The default template, of course, shouldn't use it, as it's proprietary and available to only those who install MS Office 2007+. Here's a list of styles this font appears in: Bibliography 1, Caption, Contents 3-10, Drawing, Illustration Index 1, Index, Index 1-3, Index Separator, all of List (except Headings, Content, Indent, and Paragraph), all Numbering, Object Index 1, Table, Table Index 1, Text, and User Index 1-10. Additionally, we shouldn't use DejaVu fonts as they aren't metric-compatible with Times, Arial, or Courier New. DejaVu Sans appears in: Bibliography Heading, Contents Heading, Heading, Heading 1, Illustration Index Heading, Index Heading, Object Index Heading, Preformatted Text, Table Index Heading, and User Index Heading. We have the same problem with FreeSans, which is only used in the Signature style. All of these fonts should be changed to their Liberation counterpart, which is metric-compatible with Arial, Times, and Courier New, which means that the layout of documents written with this font will be preserved on every computer (as these fonts, or at least their metrics, are universally supported). Another bother: font sizes. It's quite annoying that headings 6-10 look identical, which means the hierarchy doesn't get across. Adding fuel to the fire, the text below headings 4-10 is actually bigger than the headings themselves. The numbering before headings 2-4 and non-integer font sizes also bother me. I'd suggest font size 24 for Heading 1, then, for the rest of the headings, font sizes from 20 to 12, steadily decreasing by one (i.e. H2: 20, H3: 19, H4: 18, ...). Other than that, the document should be black-and-white, given that monochrome printers are widely used. Styles that used color were mainly those that used the DejaVu Sans font, along with Intense Quote and Title. Heading and Heading 10 should be justified just like the rest of the headings. There should be no custom styles (there are enough styles already). Lastly, frame contents should have no background. Given all of these bugs, it should be easier to base a new set of styles on our current defaults. All of this said, would it be alright if I made a playground for the default styles? -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Are you okay with those new default styles?
Hi everyone, would anyone object against Cedric including this as new default (empty) template: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Avantgarde.ott Alex -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Are you okay with those new default styles?
Hi Alex, Overall: great. I like the coloured accent very much. There are a couple things, though: #1 Would you mind removing the small-caps from the headlines? These aren't font-provided small caps, but forced ones whose proportions differ from what a typographer would provide with a font (i. e. their lines are two thin for the given font size) – long story short, typographers would hate us for doing this in our defaults #2 The difference between Heading 1 and Heading 2 font size is too large – make Heading 2 and 3 larger, please #3 Heading and Heading 1 have some marginal difference in appearance, although it looks like there should be none at all #4 Looking at the distance (kerning) between the a and the d in Heading 1, it seems the DejaVu Light font is not quite ready for primetime, can you revert to normal DejaVu (which looks better)? #5 Heading 4 to 10 should surely have larger font sizes (Heading 6 has a 9pt font size, much smaller than the body text!) #6 Signature uses FreeSans, not DejaVu/Liberation Serif Hope that helps, Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Are you okay with those new default styles?
Hi Sorry to jump in so late, I am a bit scared if I undestand this template as all my new documents will be based on this template. First, the choice of fonts and colors are a matter of taste, which is an endless debate... Second, - I have not tested - LO may warn me that my legacy documents have new default template and ask for an update. If this is true, this will be a shoot in the head of document preservation. Did I get it totally wrong? Please enlight me. regards Olivier 2012/6/12 Alexander Wilms alexander.wi...@zoho.com Hi everyone, would anyone object against Cedric including this as new default (empty) template: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/File:**Avantgarde.otthttp://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Avantgarde.ott Alex -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+help@global.**libreoffice.orgdesign%2bh...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/**get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-** unsubscribe/http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/** Netiquette http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.**libreoffice.org/global/design/http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Olivier Hallot Founder and Steering Commitee Member The Document Foundation -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Are you okay with those new default styles?
Hi Olivier, First, the choice of fonts and colors are a matter of taste, which is an endless debate... Sure, yet... staying with Arial and TNR, aping Office 2000 is not really an option either, though. Second, - I have not tested - LO may warn me that my legacy documents have new default template and ask for an update. If this is true, this will be a shoot in the head of document preservation. That's an interesting (theoretical) problem – can you test, please, though? My logic says, this shouldn't happen, also, the styles are usually embedded within the document. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Are you okay with those new default styles?
Hi 2012/6/12 Niklas Johansson sleeping.pil...@gmail.com Stefan Knorr (Astron) skrev 2012-06-12 20:19: Hi Olivier, First, the choice of fonts and colors are a matter of taste, which is an endless debate... Sure, yet... staying with Arial and TNR, aping Office 2000 is not really an option either, though. Second, - I have not tested - LO may warn me that my legacy documents have new default template and ask for an update. If this is true, this will be a shoot in the head of document preservation. That's an interesting (theoretical) problem – can you test, please, though? My logic says, this shouldn't happen, also, the styles are usually embedded within the document. Nothing will happen to our current documents since none of them are based on the Avantgarde.ott template. Though if we want to make any changes to Avantgarde.ott templates later and keep the name and location of the template - then the user will get a question if he/she wants to update the styles. We need to avoid that. Yes that is what I'm thinking... I just didn't know it was restricted to template name and not the default template. Hmm... Interesting, it seems that it does not even have to be in the same location just in one of the installed paths or set as default template. I have no idea what happens if we change one of the built in styles which is the long term goal as I understand it. The only attributes you can change on the built-in styles are in Tools - Options - Writer - Basic fonts. When changing them, all new documents based on the default template will carry the changes. If we offer Avantgarde.ott as one document template (among others), that is ok for me. To offer it as default template is another story. Regards -- Olivier Hallot Founder and Steering Commitee Member The Document Foundation -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] Are you okay with those new default styles?
Hi everyone, would anyone object against Cedric including this as new default (empty) template: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Avantgarde.ott Alex Hi, I object to the use of serif fonts for default. It's the first thing I change. Is it an American obsession? in Europe, a larger proportion of magazines with typographical insight, use sans serif for body text nowadays. I know all the well trodden but generally evidence sparse arguments for serif body fonts. The argument is at least as much about the aesthetic as it is about the physiological and psychological aspects of readability. In fact, on most screens sans is more readable than serif. I'd happily coexist with the serif-ims, if only they wouldn't always impose their creed on us sans-ites. I suggest we have two equivalent templates (one sans and one serif) and make template choice easier (it's not a great UX at the moment). That way both camps could be satisfied Cheers, Greg -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
