Re: [libreoffice-design] LibO logo
Hi Joey! Firstly, I want to say I'm very glad to see your great artwork. I'll comment more on your work-in-progress; I just wanted to say It's very very good! On 22-02-2011 13:17, Johannes Bausch wrote: [..] Although funding is the main concern atm I have been working on the logo this afternoon and tried to incorporate your citicism. You can see my step-by-step improvement on my user page on the wiki: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Joey *The Ligatures*: I think the ligatures in the fi letters was a very welcome surprise. It's true they remember a serifed font, but I personally love the way you put this serifed feeling on the LibO logo! I think it makes the logo very particular and organic. I don't see any reason to don't mix serif and sans-serif font when it's obviously look intentional and well done. And for me, that's the case. Although, the Alternative 2 is very well done too and looks particularly authentic to me. It would be a great choose too. The Alternative 1 has the same good conceptual base, but for some reason it reminds me the OpenOffice logo... I don't know why, sorry... :P *Manual kerning*: Well, I'm not the right person to talk about it, but I'm not sure if it's worth, since you can ever make use of a sharpening filter for images. But the changes you've done on the letters shape are a great improvement and make the things much... sexy [I can't find a better adjective]. A note: It seems the D on Document has not a correct kerning, but like I've said, it could be easily adjusted with a sharpening filter. *The sharper corners*: As Christoph said, the softened corners actually make the friendly look and fell of the logo. I think the sharp corners are good too, but you lost a lot of the organic feeling and help the fi original ligature you've proposed. I tried to explain every step I did and why I think it was necessary. Finally, I've done a quick render in blender (see bottom of page). The blender render was a good especial surprise! Very cool! :D Please, keep the great work. I think the best moment to propose a change on the logo is right now. So it's important take this discussions seriously, like you're doing. ~Paulo -- Paulo José O. Amaro Computer Science Student Federal University of São João del-Rei WebDesigner / Linked Empresa Júnior Blogger / casatwain.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-design] LibO logo
Hey, 2011/2/25 Bernhard Dippold bernh...@familie-dippold.at sorry, but I might misinterpret your mail, because I don't remember whom you are citing (and you don't mention the author): Sorry for that. For me the whole discussion is a single thread in gmail. I'll remember to add the names in the future when necessary. I was quoting Martin. I have done two alternative ligatures, maybe they are better suited for the font, since they're not so obtrusive. You can see them here: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Joey#Alternative_Ligatures PS: It seems that my latest mails to this list sound a bit negative - they aren't meant at all as criticism! I fully support your approach to improve the logo by balancing the character distances and the general visual impression. I hope you take my comments as positive and constructive contribution to an important task! No offense taken =). It's really great of you all to give positive criticism and I value all your opinions, so thanks! One thing, though. Christoph, you said that people from China or countries with different alphabets might have problems reading ligatures. Is that really the case? I always thought it was easier to read texts with ligatures, because you don't read the distinct characters anyway but you rather perceive stuff like the shape of the headline and vertical bars etc.? That's an interesting topic, I'll have a look into this... Joey -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] LibO logo
Hey all, I really think your slight changes on the typeface improve the logo a lot Thanks, that's really good to hear. (aside from the question if it is already too late to change it now). Yeah... is it? I don't know. But for me as a ligature enthusiast the use of a ligature in the logo would create the impression that LibO is finally capable of handling ligatures of open type fonts - but unfortunately it is not... Well, but on purpose having a logo without ligature only because the software itself doesn't support it (yet) seems weird to me. Perhaps the proper moment to change the logo as you proposed would be the release of the LibO version that supports ligatures :) Maybe the logo gives some incentive to a programmer to implement it ;-). As all people take their resources off the wiki, would it be ok if I created all the other versions (coloured, contemporary, b/w, grayscale, inverted + different resolution pngs + eps + wmf + svg) and upload them to the wiki? Greetings, Joey -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-design] LibO logo
Hi Bernhard, hello Johannes, all! Although I decided to avoid my computer today, this thread (initially read on my mobile) is just too interesting :-) Am Freitag, den 25.02.2011, 22:31 +0100 schrieb Bernhard Dippold: Johannes Bausch wrote: [... Logo Changes ...] (aside from the question if it is already too late to change it now). Yeah... is it? I don't know. In my eyes it depends on the visibility of the changes. And, to me, whether the changes are improvements ;-) Some of the changes are great enhancements and improve the minor details nobody had the time to look at until now - this is just great. Other changes do affect the visual meaning of the logo and alter - in my opinion - the intended meaning a bit too much. For example, the softened edges of the document symbol are intentional (using sharp edges would have made all the pixel-perfect aligning so much easier ...). To quote from our branding guidelines: Friendly: The visual design creates a smooth and joyful environment. For example, rounded corners and the fresh color palette are used. Of course, this can be discussed, but at least here is something we do have in place :-) Kerning can be improved nearly without any negative effect, but the ffi ligature in your proposal changes (at least in my perception) the visual impression of the entire logo. While the other characters are straight and typical for a sans serif font, the fi ligature with the larger dot extending the f looks more like a serif font. Looking at some sans fonts for the letter (U+FB01), most of them lengthen the cross from the f to the i, but keep the dot distinct. (The nearest example on the computer here at work is Trebuchet MS, a sans font with round i dots). We should definitively create a ligature for the ffi, but I think that there might be an even better solution than your present example. I'm a bit hesitant here - ligatures are elements for aesthetic reasons being used in certain cases. These elements are optional, and thus not required from the language point-of-view. I know that typographer use such ligatures quite differently and there is no real recommendation when the use those (as far as I am aware about). Some guys prefer decent use of ligatures in headings, some people use it for body text. And I know that even those professionals talk about whether ligatures do even disturb reading - because it appears to many people to an unknown character. In our case, we talk about a logo that causes different / additional requirements... First, LibreOffice is an international project, so everybody (Chinese guys, Arabic people, English people) should be able to understand our logo text. Otherwise, we fail in terms of marketing and localization aspects. The solution is to stick with the most common characters set. (Although this is already untrue, since I've used the ff-ligature as a compromise.) Second, ligatures are something many people are not yet aware about. So even if it might look more aesthetical to a few people, many people might wonder what this is about. In our case, we even have a single-block made-up word that already requires some attention to be understood. Adding more complexity should - for the same reasons as above - be avoided. That said, this is my opinion as an usability guy who has to balance the needs of many different people - including their cultural background. But for me as a ligature enthusiast the use of a ligature in the logo would create the impression that LibO is finally capable of handling ligatures of open type fonts - but unfortunately it is not... Well, but on purpose having a logo without ligature only because the software itself doesn't support it (yet) seems weird to me. +1 Of course, but this has never been the reason to avoid ligatures in the logo :-) [...] As all people take their resources off the wiki, would it be ok if I created all the other versions (coloured, contemporary, b/w, grayscale, inverted + different resolution pngs + eps + wmf + svg) and upload them to the wiki? You might do so (add it to the logo proposal page), but I really would like to see another draft (with distinct f bow and i dot ?), so perhaps it would spare some time, if you did it later. Yes, this would be cool. And I'd suggest to keep the curved edges for the document symbol. [...] I fully support your approach to improve the logo by balancing the character distances and the general visual impression. I hope you take my comments as positive and constructive contribution to an important task! Bernhard, thanks that you mention it - then its easier for me to add a +1. Although it might be a lame excuse, but the work level during the last weeks/months has been a bit extreme, so some things might sound sour, they're meant to be sweet ;-) Ah, by the way, yesterday I created the publisher advertisement for the foundation
Re: [libreoffice-design] LibO logo (was: Collection of thoughts)
Hey, thanks Bernhard for your clearing words - I agree with what you say about changing the logo. You might be right that the community accepts a change towards the community branding (I'm not sure about companies who use it, though). Although funding is the main concern atm I have been working on the logo this afternoon and tried to incorporate your citicism. You can see my step-by-step improvement on my user page on the wiki: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Joey I tried to explain every step I did and why I think it was necessary. Finally, I've done a quick render in blender (see bottom of page). Comments critique as always welcome. Thanks, Joey 2011/2/22 Bernhard Dippold bernh...@familie-dippold.at Hi Joey, all, Johannes Bausch schrieb: [...] For me it seems like we've already somehow finalized the design on the LibreOffice logo. Do all of you (really everyone) comply with the design? Because although we're aiming for a community-based design, I would strongly discourage you (us) from completely changing the logo at such a late time. The logo itself is one of the most important identifiers, so I would just work on the finishing. Because when we have all that incredible amount of graphics and media and so on, who is going to change the logo later on? Noone. Then we're stuck with what we have. I slightly disagree because of two reasons: Even if we came up now with a new logo, it would break what we have achieved by now. People have already produced marketing material, our logo has been presented to the public for nearly five months, two product versions contain it and have been marketed by this logo. So - if we just want to change the logo to something totally different, we are already too late. But: We can design a new logo and replace the present one, if there is a really good reason to do so. It has to be backed by a good marketing strategy, we probably need to combine this replacement with the release of a new major (or at least minor) product version. All this can be handled, provided that our users will follow us... With the community branding such a major positive effect can take place, strengthening our team and the community's perception in public. I can't tell you how the logo will look like after this effort: It might be kept (nearly) as it is, modified partially by keeping the general design language or changed more radically. Let's see, what we can achieve in the meantime. The logo is ok, but it has some flaws, as I've already pointed out. (some of which I've addressed, see e.g. the kerning issue in the wiki). Just for reference: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Logo.svg (Your logo_2 seems to fit more with the community branding) In my eyes slight modifications to the logo are possible, if they are small enough that people recognize it at the first glance. I reduced the space between symbol and text for the external logo, and caused by the different positions and sizes this logo looks different from the TDF logo. If you worked on kerning and ligatures of the logo text, this could be integrated in the main source quite soon. But I don't really like the ffi ligature: it looks a bit too serif instead of sans. Perhaps it's just me.. Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] LibO logo
Hey Joey, hey all, I really think your slight changes on the typeface improve the logo a lot (aside from the question if it is already too late to change it now). But for me as a ligature enthusiast the use of a ligature in the logo would create the impression that LibO is finally capable of handling ligatures of open type fonts - but unfortunately it is not... Perhaps the proper moment to change the logo as you proposed would be the release of the LibO version that supports ligatures :) Cheers, Martin On 22.02.2011 17:17, Johannes Bausch wrote: Hey, thanks Bernhard for your clearing words - I agree with what you say about changing the logo. You might be right that the community accepts a change towards the community branding (I'm not sure about companies who use it, though). Although funding is the main concern atm I have been working on the logo this afternoon and tried to incorporate your citicism. You can see my step-by-step improvement on my user page on the wiki: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Joey I tried to explain every step I did and why I think it was necessary. Finally, I've done a quick render in blender (see bottom of page). Comments critique as always welcome. Thanks, Joey 2011/2/22 Bernhard Dippoldbernh...@familie-dippold.at Hi Joey, all, Johannes Bausch schrieb: [...] For me it seems like we've already somehow finalized the design on the LibreOffice logo. Do all of you (really everyone) comply with the design? Because although we're aiming for a community-based design, I would strongly discourage you (us) from completely changing the logo at such a late time. The logo itself is one of the most important identifiers, so I would just work on the finishing. Because when we have all that incredible amount of graphics and media and so on, who is going to change the logo later on? Noone. Then we're stuck with what we have. I slightly disagree because of two reasons: Even if we came up now with a new logo, it would break what we have achieved by now. People have already produced marketing material, our logo has been presented to the public for nearly five months, two product versions contain it and have been marketed by this logo. So - if we just want to change the logo to something totally different, we are already too late. But: We can design a new logo and replace the present one, if there is a really good reason to do so. It has to be backed by a good marketing strategy, we probably need to combine this replacement with the release of a new major (or at least minor) product version. All this can be handled, provided that our users will follow us... With the community branding such a major positive effect can take place, strengthening our team and the community's perception in public. I can't tell you how the logo will look like after this effort: It might be kept (nearly) as it is, modified partially by keeping the general design language or changed more radically. Let's see, what we can achieve in the meantime. The logo is ok, but it has some flaws, as I've already pointed out. (some of which I've addressed, see e.g. the kerning issue in the wiki). Just for reference: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Logo.svg (Your logo_2 seems to fit more with the community branding) In my eyes slight modifications to the logo are possible, if they are small enough that people recognize it at the first glance. I reduced the space between symbol and text for the external logo, and caused by the different positions and sizes this logo looks different from the TDF logo. If you worked on kerning and ligatures of the logo text, this could be integrated in the main source quite soon. But I don't really like the ffi ligature: it looks a bit too serif instead of sans. Perhaps it's just me.. Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] LibO logo (was: Collection of thoughts)
Hi Joey, all, Johannes Bausch schrieb: [...] For me it seems like we've already somehow finalized the design on the LibreOffice logo. Do all of you (really everyone) comply with the design? Because although we're aiming for a community-based design, I would strongly discourage you (us) from completely changing the logo at such a late time. The logo itself is one of the most important identifiers, so I would just work on the finishing. Because when we have all that incredible amount of graphics and media and so on, who is going to change the logo later on? Noone. Then we're stuck with what we have. I slightly disagree because of two reasons: Even if we came up now with a new logo, it would break what we have achieved by now. People have already produced marketing material, our logo has been presented to the public for nearly five months, two product versions contain it and have been marketed by this logo. So - if we just want to change the logo to something totally different, we are already too late. But: We can design a new logo and replace the present one, if there is a really good reason to do so. It has to be backed by a good marketing strategy, we probably need to combine this replacement with the release of a new major (or at least minor) product version. All this can be handled, provided that our users will follow us... With the community branding such a major positive effect can take place, strengthening our team and the community's perception in public. I can't tell you how the logo will look like after this effort: It might be kept (nearly) as it is, modified partially by keeping the general design language or changed more radically. Let's see, what we can achieve in the meantime. The logo is ok, but it has some flaws, as I've already pointed out. (some of which I've addressed, see e.g. the kerning issue in the wiki). Just for reference: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Logo.svg (Your logo_2 seems to fit more with the community branding) In my eyes slight modifications to the logo are possible, if they are small enough that people recognize it at the first glance. I reduced the space between symbol and text for the external logo, and caused by the different positions and sizes this logo looks different from the TDF logo. If you worked on kerning and ligatures of the logo text, this could be integrated in the main source quite soon. But I don't really like the ffi ligature: it looks a bit too serif instead of sans. Perhaps it's just me.. Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
