Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: More general stuff - Please no ribbons/tabs!
I highly agree. During my "Microsoft lapse" and immersion into MS Office 2007 I found the great usefulness of the inventive interface. I'm absolutely against creating a mimic of commercial interface--I think we can do better. While the ribbon and tab interfaces are great I like to think they provide some pointers toward a better UI, not a goal. Besides "ribbons/tabs" another "pointer" is Adobe's docked workspace in CS5: http://help.adobe.com/en_US/photoshop/cs/using/WS3021052C-107A-42bd-B64E-D658875592AF.html One specific suggestion I have is for the toolbar "click-points" (the section of the ribbon you click to switch the active section or manipulate it) to be near the document work space, rather than furthest away like MS ribbons. That creates less mouse movement between document text and tool access. --Jared >>> Hillar Liiv 3/11/2011 5:34 AM >>> Hey, If no ribbons and toolbar solution as it is now are not solutions, then what is? http://t6uni.deviantart.com/art/OOo-mockup-181260508 or http://pauloup.deviantart.com/gallery/28216273#/d37dxdr Whats wrong with these solutions? Table/Graphic bar can appear when clicking certain object. It's better when the toolbars allways take same space and don't resize if you click to different thing / different toolbar appears. That's why ribbon is good. Hillar 2011/3/10 Christopher Stark > Oh no, > > please no such "ribbons" like in M$EUR Office!! > > In my opinion the best solution is already implemented in LibreOffice > and should be improved: > >* The menu bar with main functionality always stays in the same position >* If I click into a table the table-bar appears >* If I click on a graphic the graphic-bar appears >* If I click into a bullet-point list the bullet-point-bar appears > > This is way more effective than the M$-variant where the user has to > click on ribbons/tabs all the time and never knows if the required > function hides behind "Review", "Insert" or "Design"... > > Regards > Christopher > > > > > > Am 10.03.2011 07:34, schrieb Hillar Liiv: > > Hello, > > > > Where is going LibreOffice? I think it is pointless to argue now about > > shadow or whatever. First thing whta we need to do is to make future > design > > of LibreOffice, one and only mockup, where developers can look how it > should > > look alike and then take their decisions. And I think that should be our > > next goal. What point it is to make 2 or 4 sided shadow now if we don't > know > > where LibreOffice is going. > > > > Some mockup/design examples: > > > http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance/Design_Proposals_for_%E2%80%9CAccessing_Functionality%E2%80%9D#Design_Proposals_Submitted > > http://pauloup.deviantart.com/gallery/28216273 > > > http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/libre_office_ribbon_mockup_by_usrnametaken-d375abm.png > > http://t6uni.deviantart.com/art/OOo-mockup-181260508 > > > > Other examples: > > http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Selection_0212.png > > > http://www.vistax64.com/attachments/vista-news/13041d1243273201-office-2010-technical-preview-screenshots-win7-7127.jpg > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsMD9QCiMtg&feature=player_embedded > > > > If we don't do this, then it is taking much more time developers to make > > things work. > > > > (And a lot of people have told me that they don't use > OpenOffice/LibreOffice > > beacuase they don't like how it looks.) > > > > Thanks, > > Hillar > > > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** > > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: More general stuff
Hi Christoph, all, On 10-03-2011 20:22, Christoph Noack wrote: Hi Paulo, hi Hillar, all! Am Donnerstag, den 10.03.2011, 10:52 -0300 schrieb Paulo José: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance/Design_Proposals_for_%E2%80%9CAccessing_Functionality%E2%80%9D#Design_Proposals_Submitted Wow, This is full of love! What did happen to these guys and their ideas? Where are they? :O Great stuff, isn't it? We did this "Design Proposal Session" for Renaissance - and this has been an amazing time, since I had the chance to work with the guys at Hamburg for a few days within their office when we prepared this effort. Pretty much fun! Cool! Really Cool! :-D It must has been a great experience! Concerning the "what did happen to these guys". Well, some of those are on this mailing list (which I'm really happy about). And to some, who stopped activities concerning OOo some time ago, I've send an invitation mail ... part of the first Kick-Off step named "Send Invitation to Interested Parties". Unfortunately, only very few replied :-\ Well, I wish they come back to home to keep doing all this good work. The ideas: Some of them went into the Renaissance prototype that got famous for (people thought so) re-implementation of the Ribbon / Fluent concept by Microsoft. Unfortunately, many tiny but great ideas had to be postponed, because OOo wasn't ready yet ... so you may find stuff like the "Keyboard Command Invocation" that is pretty similar to your mockup once to be found at OMG Ubuntu: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Proposal_by_Andreas_Schuderer#Keyboard_Command_Invocation Yeah, it's a Blender proposal too, actually already implemented. As well the circular menu. So personally, I consider this collection still a great resource to think about interaction improvements - it had been mostly created by the community. If you look more closely, the major concepts are very similar ... but the real potential is in the additional "small" ideas. For sure. I spent some time looking at these pages and they brings ideas, like you've said, very similar. The actual differences are in the little details (for me, the most significant things in the daily usage in every application). Cherrs, ~Paulo -- Paulo José O. Amaro Computer Science Student Federal University of São João del-Rei WebDesigner / Linked Empresa Júnior Blogger / casatwain.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: More general stuff - Please no ribbons/tabs!
Hey, If no ribbons and toolbar solution as it is now are not solutions, then what is? http://t6uni.deviantart.com/art/OOo-mockup-181260508 or http://pauloup.deviantart.com/gallery/28216273#/d37dxdr Whats wrong with these solutions? Table/Graphic bar can appear when clicking certain object. It's better when the toolbars allways take same space and don't resize if you click to different thing / different toolbar appears. That's why ribbon is good. Hillar 2011/3/10 Christopher Stark > Oh no, > > please no such "ribbons" like in M$EUR Office!! > > In my opinion the best solution is already implemented in LibreOffice > and should be improved: > >* The menu bar with main functionality always stays in the same position >* If I click into a table the table-bar appears >* If I click on a graphic the graphic-bar appears >* If I click into a bullet-point list the bullet-point-bar appears > > This is way more effective than the M$-variant where the user has to > click on ribbons/tabs all the time and never knows if the required > function hides behind "Review", "Insert" or "Design"... > > Regards > Christopher > > > > > > Am 10.03.2011 07:34, schrieb Hillar Liiv: > > Hello, > > > > Where is going LibreOffice? I think it is pointless to argue now about > > shadow or whatever. First thing whta we need to do is to make future > design > > of LibreOffice, one and only mockup, where developers can look how it > should > > look alike and then take their decisions. And I think that should be our > > next goal. What point it is to make 2 or 4 sided shadow now if we don't > know > > where LibreOffice is going. > > > > Some mockup/design examples: > > > http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance/Design_Proposals_for_%E2%80%9CAccessing_Functionality%E2%80%9D#Design_Proposals_Submitted > > http://pauloup.deviantart.com/gallery/28216273 > > > http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/libre_office_ribbon_mockup_by_usrnametaken-d375abm.png > > http://t6uni.deviantart.com/art/OOo-mockup-181260508 > > > > Other examples: > > http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Selection_0212.png > > > http://www.vistax64.com/attachments/vista-news/13041d1243273201-office-2010-technical-preview-screenshots-win7-7127.jpg > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsMD9QCiMtg&feature=player_embedded > > > > If we don't do this, then it is taking much more time developers to make > > things work. > > > > (And a lot of people have told me that they don't use > OpenOffice/LibreOffice > > beacuase they don't like how it looks.) > > > > Thanks, > > Hillar > > > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** > > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: More general stuff
Hi Paulo, hi Hillar, all! Am Donnerstag, den 10.03.2011, 10:52 -0300 schrieb Paulo José: > http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance/Design_Proposals_for_%E2%80%9CAccessing_Functionality%E2%80%9D#Design_Proposals_Submitted > > Wow, This is full of love! What did happen to these guys and their ideas? > Where are they? :O Great stuff, isn't it? We did this "Design Proposal Session" for Renaissance - and this has been an amazing time, since I had the chance to work with the guys at Hamburg for a few days within their office when we prepared this effort. Pretty much fun! Concerning the "what did happen to these guys". Well, some of those are on this mailing list (which I'm really happy about). And to some, who stopped activities concerning OOo some time ago, I've send an invitation mail ... part of the first Kick-Off step named "Send Invitation to Interested Parties". Unfortunately, only very few replied :-\ The ideas: Some of them went into the Renaissance prototype that got famous for (people thought so) re-implementation of the Ribbon / Fluent concept by Microsoft. Unfortunately, many tiny but great ideas had to be postponed, because OOo wasn't ready yet ... so you may find stuff like the "Keyboard Command Invocation" that is pretty similar to your mockup once to be found at OMG Ubuntu: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Proposal_by_Andreas_Schuderer#Keyboard_Command_Invocation So personally, I consider this collection still a great resource to think about interaction improvements - it had been mostly created by the community. If you look more closely, the major concepts are very similar ... but the real potential is in the additional "small" ideas. > On 10-03-2011 03:34, Hillar Liiv wrote: > > Hello, > > > > Where is going LibreOffice? I think it is pointless to argue now about > > shadow or whatever. First thing whta we need to do is to make future design > > of LibreOffice, one and only mockup, where developers can look how it should > > look alike and then take their decisions. And I think that should be our > > next goal. What point it is to make 2 or 4 sided shadow now if we don't know > > where LibreOffice is going. [ ... Mockups and Design Examples ... ] > > (And a lot of people have told me that they don't use OpenOffice/LibreOffice > > beacuase they don't like how it looks.) Got it. But I think we have to differentiate between "how it looks" and "how it behaves". Most of the statements by those users, and the mockups you've referred to combine these issues. But, from experience we know, that it is better to separate then in the very first step. For example, that is why we've asked in the Design Proposal Collection (see above) to not use fancy effects, but simply geometric drawings. Vice versa, I would like to separate (in the very first step) visual appearance and behavioral aspects. Of course, concerning the visual appearance, I totally share your thoughts - we should deliver something consistent. If we have a clear vision, the easier it is to explain / provide to the development. And as far as I can see, the current motif collection is already an important step in the right direction ... for all kinds of LibreOffice related visual artwork. Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: More general stuff
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance/Design_Proposals_for_%E2%80%9CAccessing_Functionality%E2%80%9D#Design_Proposals_Submitted Wow, This is full of love! What did happen to these guys and their ideas? Where are they? :O On 10-03-2011 03:34, Hillar Liiv wrote: Hello, Where is going LibreOffice? I think it is pointless to argue now about shadow or whatever. First thing whta we need to do is to make future design of LibreOffice, one and only mockup, where developers can look how it should look alike and then take their decisions. And I think that should be our next goal. What point it is to make 2 or 4 sided shadow now if we don't know where LibreOffice is going. Some mockup/design examples: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance/Design_Proposals_for_%E2%80%9CAccessing_Functionality%E2%80%9D#Design_Proposals_Submitted http://pauloup.deviantart.com/gallery/28216273 http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/libre_office_ribbon_mockup_by_usrnametaken-d375abm.png http://t6uni.deviantart.com/art/OOo-mockup-181260508 Other examples: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Selection_0212.png http://www.vistax64.com/attachments/vista-news/13041d1243273201-office-2010-technical-preview-screenshots-win7-7127.jpg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsMD9QCiMtg&feature=player_embedded If we don't do this, then it is taking much more time developers to make things work. (And a lot of people have told me that they don't use OpenOffice/LibreOffice beacuase they don't like how it looks.) Thanks, Hillar -- Paulo José O. Amaro Computer Science Student Federal University of São João del-Rei WebDesigner / Linked Empresa Júnior Blogger / casatwain.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: More general stuff - Please no ribbons/tabs!
Oh no, please no such "ribbons" like in M$EUR Office!! In my opinion the best solution is already implemented in LibreOffice and should be improved: * The menu bar with main functionality always stays in the same position * If I click into a table the table-bar appears * If I click on a graphic the graphic-bar appears * If I click into a bullet-point list the bullet-point-bar appears This is way more effective than the M$-variant where the user has to click on ribbons/tabs all the time and never knows if the required function hides behind "Review", "Insert" or "Design"... Regards Christopher Am 10.03.2011 07:34, schrieb Hillar Liiv: > Hello, > > Where is going LibreOffice? I think it is pointless to argue now about > shadow or whatever. First thing whta we need to do is to make future design > of LibreOffice, one and only mockup, where developers can look how it should > look alike and then take their decisions. And I think that should be our > next goal. What point it is to make 2 or 4 sided shadow now if we don't know > where LibreOffice is going. > > Some mockup/design examples: > http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance/Design_Proposals_for_%E2%80%9CAccessing_Functionality%E2%80%9D#Design_Proposals_Submitted > http://pauloup.deviantart.com/gallery/28216273 > http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/libre_office_ribbon_mockup_by_usrnametaken-d375abm.png > http://t6uni.deviantart.com/art/OOo-mockup-181260508 > > Other examples: > http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Selection_0212.png > http://www.vistax64.com/attachments/vista-news/13041d1243273201-office-2010-technical-preview-screenshots-win7-7127.jpg > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsMD9QCiMtg&feature=player_embedded > > If we don't do this, then it is taking much more time developers to make > things work. > > (And a lot of people have told me that they don't use OpenOffice/LibreOffice > beacuase they don't like how it looks.) > > Thanks, > Hillar > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: More general stuff
Hello, Where is going LibreOffice? I think it is pointless to argue now about shadow or whatever. First thing whta we need to do is to make future design of LibreOffice, one and only mockup, where developers can look how it should look alike and then take their decisions. And I think that should be our next goal. What point it is to make 2 or 4 sided shadow now if we don't know where LibreOffice is going. Some mockup/design examples: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance/Design_Proposals_for_%E2%80%9CAccessing_Functionality%E2%80%9D#Design_Proposals_Submitted http://pauloup.deviantart.com/gallery/28216273 http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/libre_office_ribbon_mockup_by_usrnametaken-d375abm.png http://t6uni.deviantart.com/art/OOo-mockup-181260508 Other examples: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Selection_0212.png http://www.vistax64.com/attachments/vista-news/13041d1243273201-office-2010-technical-preview-screenshots-win7-7127.jpg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsMD9QCiMtg&feature=player_embedded If we don't do this, then it is taking much more time developers to make things work. (And a lot of people have told me that they don't use OpenOffice/LibreOffice beacuase they don't like how it looks.) Thanks, Hillar -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: More general stuff
[Preamble: After finishing this mail, I've noticed Bernhard's reply concerning the same topic. I'll send this mail anyway ... I hope you don't mind.] Hi all, especially Nik! First and foremost: sigh. I had hoped to avoid that kind of situation that some more people get upset ... I wasn't in the best mood yesterday as well. Why? Yesterday, it seemed to me that Michael wanted to "protect" Sébastien who initially sent in the patch for the nice shadows. Michael mentioned "and our design guys apparently emit a long stream of complaining left and right". And this - to me - is a completely wrong estimation. This wouldn't matter to me, if ... a) Michael wouldn't be one of the lead developers that have quite some impact on the dev list. In my point-of-view, it's essential that he understands the collaboration with the Design Team. b) Michael would read the Design list, hence knowing what great stuff tends to happen here. But, it's clear to me that this isn't manageable to him time-wise ... since he really brings LibreOffice forward, there was a need to correct his perception on the dev list. c) I know from experience that it is hard for people not following a list like "Design" for some time, that there is some vivid but meaningful process behind the discussions. To be honest, I'm a bit allergic concerning statements that sound uninformed, like the one above :-\ Therefore I tried (and it seems that it partly failed) to convey in my mail that there is some time needed, and the different arguments and preferences have to be sorted out first. And, Nik, I remembered your offer to draft a mockup based on the discussions and therefore mentioned it. Because I wanted to highlight that people on the design list do care - by working iteratively, not by "complaining". Thus, I'm very sorry if my mail was the reason for you to get upset :-( Am Mittwoch, den 09.03.2011, 09:29 +0100 schrieb Sébastien Le Ray: > Le Wed, 09 Mar 2011 18:58:00 +1100, > Nik a écrit : > > > Hi Christoph, all, > > > > Oh boy. I thought I'd wait a few days before responding so that I > > wasn't as offended as I am now, > > but it looks like you're expecting something from me and I don't want > > to delay Sebastien's work. As I said, I'm sorry if you perceived any pressure from my side ... I didn't think about any "due date" or such stuff, rather mentioned your proposal. My aim was to say, that design work matters - as well as the contribution by Sébastien. Sébastien - to mention that: I still haven't had the chance to try your improvements (and will answer this in another mail), but its exceptional that somebody invests the effort to provide such "live prototyping". In the projects I work in (e.g. in my day job), it usually costs hours to the whole team to do that for stuff that requires even more attention. So thanks a lot! [...] > > >> Personally, I would have preferred > > >> you to move on to some other fun / high-impact win, rather than > > >> getting bogged down in random details here ;-) > > > > > Please don't expect anything from me. I won't be contributing to this > > task further. > > I don't volunteer my free time to be told how unimportant Design > > "random details" are. > > I don't think Michael intention was to hurt anybody, emails have this > drawback that nuances are not correctly rendered. True, but I also think that Michael requires some more understanding that - qualitatively - visual design development (usability, user experience design) differs from code development. But the amount of work is as tough as code development (he sometimes seems to miss that ...). > > Someone else will pick it up. Good luck. > > I sincerely hope that you'll change your mind and provide a good mockup > (maybe with a gradient background too, shadows have an alpha channel so > we can put anything behind). Same hope from my side, because of his excellent skills - but, of course, Nik is free to chose. Regards, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: More general stuff
Le Wed, 09 Mar 2011 18:58:00 +1100,
Nik a écrit :
> Hi Christoph, all,
>
> Oh boy. I thought I'd wait a few days before responding so that I
> wasn't as offended as I am now,
> but it looks like you're expecting something from me and I don't want
> to delay Sebastien's work.
Hi,
No that's fine, I'll wait for you, I've to implement shadows in impress
et draw and once done I could integrate your work easily since I'd know
where is the code I need to modify. Let's first start with simple
shadow and once we've agreed on a design (borders count, blur and
color), I apply the patch that integrates it.
If you read the full thread, we're currently in the state you where
proposing ("I'd propose having a drop shadow by default and having the
option to turn it off, or turn it 'flat'", we don't have the flat
option right know, I don't know if having that much options for
something as simple as a shadow ('cause I don't think final users would
have any idea of the work behind that shadow) is a good thing).
The shadow color and width can be easily modified by anybody that has a
master build (3 images to change in a .zip and on value in the
appearancedialog) to allow finding right values. Again, I'm not a
"design guy" so my opinion about this is rather useless, that's why I
took some hours to implement configuration to allow you to play with it
and come with good value.
> > [...]
> >> Personally, I would have preferred
> >> you to move on to some other fun / high-impact win, rather than
> >> getting bogged down in random details here ;-)
> >
> Please don't expect anything from me. I won't be contributing to this
> task further.
> I don't volunteer my free time to be told how unimportant Design
> "random details" are.
I don't think Michael intention was to hurt anybody, emails have this
drawback that nuances are not correctly rendered.
> Someone else will pick it up. Good luck.
I sincerely hope that you'll change your mind and provide a good mockup
(maybe with a gradient background too, shadows have an alpha channel so
we can put anything behind).
> -Nik
>
Sébastien
--
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[libreoffice-design] Re: More general stuff
Hi Christoph, all, Oh boy. I thought I'd wait a few days before responding so that I wasn't as offended as I am now, but it looks like you're expecting something from me and I don't want to delay Sebastien's work. I think I'll save myself the stress and step out of this task. I must have confused it for a discussion about a UI-issue on a Design mailing list. On 3/9/2011 4:42 AM, Christoph Noack wrote: Personally, I'd like to both look at Sébastiens work, and on Nik's work once being reade. [...] Personally, I would have preferred you to move on to some other fun / high-impact win, rather than getting bogged down in random details here ;-) Please don't expect anything from me. I won't be contributing to this task further. I don't volunteer my free time to be told how unimportant Design "random details" are. Someone else will pick it up. Good luck. -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
