Re: [dev-biblio] Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration
Hi all, David Wilson wrote: On Thu, 6 Dec 2007, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: So I'd like to see if we can work with developers from Zotero, JabRef, etc. to enhance that baseline support. If out that some other developer start to build the integrated tool we originally envisioned, that's great. But I don't think we can depend on that panning out. And in any case, as I say, it's not an either/or choice; just a question of immediate priorities. Bruce As a start, I have set up a wiki page to assist in the managing of Zotero plugin issues. There is not much there yet and I invite interested people to add to it. http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Zotero_Plugin I strongly suggest moving this page to a new location, something like: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Bibliographic_Project/Plugins/Zotero instead of creating such orphaned pages. All bibliographic wiki-pages should be ultimately moved below the top-level page 'Bibliographic_Project'. I hope nobody gets annoyed by this quibbling about the wiki-structure. As you know, I am rather focused on the hierarchical organisation of data (http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Bib-Keywords), and this makes sense. It becomes much easier to navigate such sites, see e.g. http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Writer/ToDo/Layout/Multi_Page_Layout where one easily can navigate back to the top-level Writer page. [http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Writer] I hope therefore, that all project leads will enforce this style and improve existing wikis by moving orphaned pages below the top-level project's wiki-page. Sincerely, Leonard regards David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [dev-biblio] Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration
On Sun, 9 Dec 2007, Leonard Mada wrote: I strongly suggest moving this page to a new location, something like: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Bibliographic_Project/Plugins/Zote ro instead of creating such orphaned pages. Leonard, Thanks for the the suggestion. When I started the wiki pages I just copied what most other people were doing - which was a flat file structure with any hierarchy built using category links. I can see there advantages in moving to a hierarchical directory organisation. Are there any objections to my restructuring the wiki pages in this way ? regards David On Sun, 9 Dec 2007, Leonard Mada wrote: All bibliographic wiki-pages should be ultimately moved below the top-level page 'Bibliographic_Project'. I hope nobody gets annoyed by this quibbling about the wiki-structure. As you know, I am rather focused on the hierarchical organisation of data (http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Bib-Keywords), and this makes sense. It becomes much easier to navigate such sites, see e.g. http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Writer/ToDo/Layout/Multi_Page_Layo ut where one easily can navigate back to the top-level Writer page. [http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Writer] I hope therefore, that all project leads will enforce this style and improve existing wikis by moving orphaned pages below the top-level project's wiki-page. Sincerely, Leonard regards David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- --- David N. Wilson Co-Project Lead for the Bibliographic OpenOffice.org Project http://bibliographic.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[dev-biblio] Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration
Hello, I agree that the bibliographic functionning need not be within OpenOffice, however just to remind you : Zotero is not the only working example out there , Bibus integrates nicely with OO and Word without using the OO integrated database. Oliver On 6 Dec 2007 at 20:53, Morten Omholt Alver wrote: Date sent: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 20:53:05 +0100 From: Morten Omholt Alver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Copies to: dev@bibliographic.openoffice.org Subject:Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration On 05/12/2007, Bruce D'Arcus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 5, 2007 9:21 AM, Morten Omholt Alver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The other thing is whether OpenOffice will support CSL, or if we need to transform it ourselves into OO's bibliography structure? I understand that this could possibly be a difficult question to answer at the moment. I have talked with the ODF TC about formally including CSL in the ODF spec, so that may happen at some point. But I would consider the existing support in OOo and ODF as legacy that will at some point get deprecated. Indeed, Zotero completely bypasses it now. That's an interesting thought. So Zotero creates and formats its own bibliography field without even touching the built-in bibliography features? I hadn't really considered that option, but I can imagine that this wouldn't be too difficult. It would also let us bypass the limitations of the bibliography system. I need to learn more about using the UNO API... -- Morten _ Oliver Brendel UMR Ecologie et Ecophysiologie Forestiere INRA - Centre de Nancy 54280 ChampenouxFrance [EMAIL PROTECTED] TEL 0033/383/394100 FAX /394022 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [dev-biblio] Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration
On Thu, 6 Dec 2007, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: So I'd like to see if we can work with developers from Zotero, JabRef, etc. to enhance that baseline support. If out that some other developer start to build the integrated tool we originally envisioned, that's great. But I don't think we can depend on that panning out. And in any case, as I say, it's not an either/or choice; just a question of immediate priorities. Bruce As a start, I have set up a wiki page to assist in the managing of Zotero plugin issues. There is not much there yet and I invite interested people to add to it. http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Zotero_Plugin regards David -- --- David N. Wilson Co-Project Lead for the Bibliographic OpenOffice.org Project http://bibliographic.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[dev-biblio] Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that the bibliographic functionning need not be within OpenOffice, however just to remind you : Zotero is not the only working example out there , Bibus integrates nicely with OO and Word without using the OO integrated database. True enough. But to be blunt, Zotero is the only working example that I consider adequate to the full range of citation practice. Bibus adopts the very limited BibTeX-based data model of ODF 1.0. This already means its limited mostly to the hard sciences. For that reason alone, I can't use it. Zotero, OTOH, supports a fuller data model. It also supports a fuller range of citation practices common in the social sciences and humanities (and hopefully law): - automatic footnoting of note-based references - support for ibid. - first/subsequent references forms - prefix and suffix notes - page, line, etc. locators for citations These kinds of details can impact implementation of course. But I'd love to see a variety of projects (including Bibus) help us to figure out how to move forward and hopefully converge on a generic solution for integration. To me the ultimate goal is that different users, using different bibliographic applications AND different ODF editors (perhaps even Word) can pass around their documents and have the citations remain live. There's a bit of work to do before we can get there of course! BTW, see Mathias Bauer's recent post no field enhancements coming in OOo 2.4. http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/custom_properties_and_fields That could be an interim solution before the new text:meta-field from ODF 1.2 gets implemented that would give us better functionality and interop with Word. Bruce - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [dev-biblio] Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration
I largely different with Bruce, and encourage the development of Bibliographic applications that can effectively interact with OpenOffice. I differ from Bruce in not yet being fully convinced that we should abandon the idea of building a native integrated bibliographic facility in to OpenOffice. However, whilst some Bibliographic enhancements ARE scheduled for OpenOffice version 3. ( http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Features ). There is no date set for this release, although I would hazard a guess for mid to late 2008. Also there is as yet no decision as to the Bibliographic features that would be included in that release. We know that the Writer development team has rather limited development resources and as a OOo Project. Thus third solution for a usable bibliographic facility now or in the near future. Currently there are complexities involved with Zotero and other 3rd party bibliographic apps in sharing documents and the related bibliographic data, which would be greatly reduced with an integrated bibliographic facility. Maybe applications like Zotero will solve these problems (they are being discussed on the Zotero development wiki) and if they can solve them then my desire for an integrated bibliographic application may well be weakened. Regarding deprecate the existing citation and bib support ASAP, I have never considered it usable, and would be happy to see it gone. A list member recently pointed out to me that my first enhancement request that started this project #5038, was filed 1999 days ago by yours truly . and that it makes me wonder if we'll see any working implementation before I retire (in about 15 years). I have not yet given up hope. I urge all the list members to to contact any skilled developers that they know who may be interesting in working on this project. A couple of skilled and committed programmers could really accelerate this project. Otherwise we completely are at the mercy of the priorities and limitations of the SUN Writer development team. regards david On Wed, 5 Dec 2007, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: This brings up something I've been thinking about for awhile. I'm not sure if David or others agree with me on this, but here's my thinking: The OOo bibliographic project started with the idea to replace the integrated bibliographic component with something much better, but still developed within the framework of OOo. For a variety of reasons, I think this is the wrong way to go. One of those reasons is that the Zotero project has pretty much done what I'd hope to achieve with OOoBib: 1) a rich data model and nice UI 2) good import/export 3) use of the CSL citation styling language 4) integration iwith Word and OOo ... and so, finally a good, cross-platform application that is suitable for a wide range of fields, including the social sciences and humanities (where traditional tools often fail). I'm currently using it for an article manuscript. I'd like to see this project, then, work on enhancing the integration of tools like Zotero and JabRef with OOo. I'd encourage people, for example, to get their hands dirty with testing, with trying to offer support on places like the Zotero forums, and where possible to spend time figuring out the code so that we can ensure excellent support long-term, enhancements, and so forth. I'd ideally like to use this work to converge on an enhanced citation API in OOo that allows for standardized integration (and encoding in ODF 1.2) I'd also like to see other projects pick up CSL, but that's a somewhat separate issue. So I'm basically suggesting a shift in focus designed to get stuff working NOW, and enhance as we go. Thoughts? Bruce PS - Oh, and I think we should urge Sun deprecate the existing citation and bib support ASAP. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- --- David N. Wilson Co-Project Lead for the Bibliographic OpenOffice.org Project http://bibliographic.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [dev-biblio] Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration
On Dec 5, 2007 7:55 PM, David Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Currently there are complexities involved with Zotero and other 3rd party bibliographic apps in sharing documents and the related bibliographic data, which would be greatly reduced with an integrated bibliographic facility. Well, they'll be solved by an integrated API and standardized ODF encoding. If JabRef and Zotero, for example, both use the same mechanism for citation insertion and updating, and embed the same citation and bib data code in the files, then it achieves that objective. My point is we need that regardless of whether we build something on top of it as an integrated tool. So I'd like to see if we can work with developers from Zotero, JabRef, etc. to enhance that baseline support. If out that some other developer start to build the integrated tool we originally envisioned, that's great. But I don't think we can depend on that panning out. And in any case, as I say, it's not an either/or choice; just a question of immediate priorities. Bruce - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[dev-biblio] Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration
On Dec 4, 2007 2:42 PM, Morten Omholt Alver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have been working on a plugin for integrating JabRef better with OpenOffice.org via the UNO interface (to clarify: it's a plugin for JabRef - which will support plugins from the next version). It's far from finished, but you can at the moment do the basics like inserting citations and formatting the bibliography according to a style definition. I'd like to try to get the help of some interested users with testing and development. Cool; thanks for the note. The plan is for this plugin eventually to be bundled with JabRef, but for now, I've made the current version of the plugin available on the following address: http://www.itk.ntnu.no/ansatte/Alver_Omholt_Morten/jabref/OOPlugin.html The source code isn't too comprehensive, so if you're interested in helping out, try it out and have a look at the code! This brings up something I've been thinking about for awhile. I'm not sure if David or others agree with me on this, but here's my thinking: The OOo bibliographic project started with the idea to replace the integrated bibliographic component with something much better, but still developed within the framework of OOo. For a variety of reasons, I think this is the wrong way to go. One of those reasons is that the Zotero project has pretty much done what I'd hope to achieve with OOoBib: 1) a rich data model and nice UI 2) good import/export 3) use of the CSL citation styling language 4) integration iwith Word and OOo ... and so, finally a good, cross-platform application that is suitable for a wide range of fields, including the social sciences and humanities (where traditional tools often fail). I'm currently using it for an article manuscript. I'd like to see this project, then, work on enhancing the integration of tools like Zotero and JabRef with OOo. I'd encourage people, for example, to get their hands dirty with testing, with trying to offer support on places like the Zotero forums, and where possible to spend time figuring out the code so that we can ensure excellent support long-term, enhancements, and so forth. I'd ideally like to use this work to converge on an enhanced citation API in OOo that allows for standardized integration (and encoding in ODF 1.2) I'd also like to see other projects pick up CSL, but that's a somewhat separate issue. So I'm basically suggesting a shift in focus designed to get stuff working NOW, and enhance as we go. Thoughts? Bruce PS - Oh, and I think we should urge Sun deprecate the existing citation and bib support ASAP. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[dev-biblio] Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration
Bruce D'Arcus ha scritto: ... So I'm basically suggesting a shift in focus designed to get stuff working NOW, and enhance as we go. Thoughts? Bruce PS - Oh, and I think we should urge Sun deprecate the existing citation and bib support ASAP. Bruce: I completely agree with you. Even if still work has to be done on it, Zotero seems really the killing app in this field. Unfortunately, for the moment the styles are few, and there is not a practical way of contributing, but I understand this is going to change soon. All the best. pc -- Paolo Cavallini, see: http://www.faunalia.it/pc - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
