Re: [dev-biblio] Bibliographic Issues should be added to the marketing strategy
On Jun 14, 2006, at 2:49 AM, David Wilson wrote: y University's IT department distributes OpenOffce for free, but the Academic departments recommend students use Endnotes for bibliographic management. Minor correction: Endnote, not Endnotes. Until recently OpenOffice could claim to at least have bibliographic some support whilst MS Word did not have any. The situation is now reversed. Word 2007 has significantly better bibliographic support than OpenOffice. Strongly underline this point. Given this situation I propose that a fifth dot point be added to this list- [...] In terms of the higher Education market bibliographic support is not 'feature', it is a strategic requirement. If we do not have it we are not in it. I have to say, I've about lost all faith in OOo. The community (ahem, let's be specific: Sun) seems really not to understand or care about what we are trying to do, and even the generic requirements we have to make it technically easier for developers to implement seems not to be a priority. Even worse, I have no sense of a community process that actually sets these priorities. The reality is Word is a better word processor than Writer, it is used by 99% of the people in my field (I have literally never heard of anyone who uses OpenOffice, but simply assume there are one or two out there), and it will now have really good built-in citation support. So why would even I or anyone else in higher ed bother with OOo? Bruce - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [dev-biblio] Bibliographic Issues should be added to the marketing strategy
Quoting Bruce D'Arcus [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Jun 14, 2006, at 2:49 AM, David Wilson wrote: Given this situation I propose that a fifth dot point be added to this list- [...] In terms of the higher Education market bibliographic support is not 'feature', it is a strategic requirement. If we do not have it we are not in it. I have to say, I've about lost all faith in OOo. The community (ahem, let's be specific: Sun) seems really not to understand or care about what we are trying to do, and even the generic requirements we have to make it technically easier for developers to implement seems not to be a priority. Even worse, I have no sense of a community process that actually sets these priorities. The reality is Word is a better word processor than Writer, it is used by 99% of the people in my field (I have literally never heard of anyone who uses OpenOffice, but simply assume there are one or two out there), and it will now have really good built-in citation support. So why would even I or anyone else in higher ed bother with OOo? I'm afraid I have to echo this point, perhaps not quite so harshly as Bruce (I haven't noticed any otheri mportant deficiencies in OO Writer, while Bruce I guess sees some). As a scholar in the humanities, I have been hoping for years that OOo would introduce some kind of decent bibliographic support. For the second year in a row, the OOo core team has set the priority of the biblio project so low that no one is even willing to supervise a Google SoC student to do the necessary work. I think OOo needs to understand two things that David has already mentioned: (a) scholars CAN'T use OOo in its present state, and thus will never recommend it to their students; (b) it is precisely in the higher-education learning environment that people set their software-using habits for their adult lives. That is, if people don't start using OOo at University or other post-secondary institutions, they are highly unlikely to ever pick it up later, or to incorporate it into their small/medium/large businesses. So while higher education may seem like a niche market, it's actually very important (which is why MS products are handed out cheap at universities). I'm embarking on a new research project now, and for the first time in 5 years I've kept the windows partition on my new computer; I'm going to install MS Office and EndNote. I hate to do it, but I feel I really have no other choice. Matt - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [dev-biblio] Bibliographic Issues should be added to the marketing strategy
Wow, this series of e-mails is depressing. I am a professor at the University of Rochester and use Openoffice daily, so along with Matt Price and Bruce D'Arcus, there are at least a few people interested in using Openoffice in academia. I've been following this issue for some time (I'm the one who suggested the failed attempt to get funding from the NSF CCLI program). Bibliographic support is the ONLY reason I do not use Openoffice exclusively and have my students use it exclusively as well. I otherwise love it. But right now I use Endnote on Linux using Codeweavers Crossover office to add/remove citations to papers I write. I must then us MS Word to do the final formatting of the bibiography before submitting for publication. I was really hopeful a year or so ago that better bibliographic support would be built in by now. I am disturbed that people seem to be giving up now, but I am not sure what can be done to help. If Sun developers will not be able to work on this, could they provide a reasonable estimate of coding man hours needed based on the specs (and perhaps a cost estimate)? Could the community (me included) try to raise funding that could be ear-marked for this project? If enough money could be set aside, then perhaps the development could move forward. As with many people, I have little free time for this, but it is an important issue for me and I would like to help somehow. -Matt __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [dev-biblio] Bibliographic Issues should be added to the marketing strategy
Quoting Matthew Yates [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I was really hopeful a year or so ago that better bibliographic support would be built in by now. As was I, and I should say that one of the reasons the current situation really bums me out is that there are a number of python-based teaching projects I *could* potentially manage on my own which I think would be really cool -- e.g., integrating OOo with a web-based bibliography course wiki, thus allowing for persistent content over multiple iterations of a course (so for instance my course Science Technology and Modernity, which I have a high opinion of, could be transformed into a significant web resource for a larger community by virtue of the collective efforts of students). I guess I could try them without OOo -- try something like Peter Sefton's very cool courseware -- but without it it'll be much harder to get the teaching payoff I feel my students need. So I certainly am disappointed. Matt - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [dev-biblio] Bibliographic Issues should be added to the marketing strategy
David, I like the pledge idea. Codeweavers set up something similar where users can pledge money for a favorite windows application. The Codeweavers developers can then prioritize development to get new applications functioning based on the pledges for it. When they get it working, they collect the pledges for it. The only problem is that people can be fickle and financial situations of people change over time so there is no certainty that all pledges will be collected. It Codeweavers case, for any pledge less than $500, they take your word for it. Over $500, they make you put money in escrow at www.escrow.com. Even with the collection uncertainty, the pledge idea is a good one and is probably better than direct contributions. I don't suppose Sun would share customer e-mail addresses in academia? It would be nice to contact users at universities to try and drum up pledges. -Matt --- David Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is still a remaining positive point, or some light at the end of a long tunnel, and that is that Sun developers have agreed that bibliographic 'improvements' should be in OOo version 3. No date is yet set for version 3 but I would guess that it is more than a 12 months away. As far as I can tell The Sun developers are still flat out bug fixing version 2, and they have not started a new round of enhancement planning. I have put in two submissions to give talks at the OOo conference in Lyon, France in Sept 2006 where I hope to promote the Bibliographic Project. I am depended upon getting a subsidy for the Australia-France airfare. We should hear if this is accepted or not in the next few weeks. Regarding private funding, I have been somewhat reluctant in the past, the principle reason reason was that we probably needed several thousand dollars, and I was worried that if people sent in less that the amount needed, I would be left holding not enough money and people pissed off because nothing was happening. Perhaps we could set up scheme where people can make pledges for funding. And the pledges would only be collected when we have a enough pledged for the task ? If the pledged amount was not delivered by a certain time it could be refunded, or kept, depending on the donor's wishes. Anyway I am will to discuss ways and means. regards David On Thursday 15 June 2006 3:04 am, Matthew Yates wrote: Wow, this series of e-mails is depressing. I am a professor at the University of Rochester and use Openoffice daily, so along with Matt Price and Bruce D'Arcus, there are at least a few people interested in using Openoffice in academia. I've been following this issue for some time (I'm the one who suggested the failed attempt to get funding from the NSF CCLI program). Bibliographic support is the ONLY reason I do not use Openoffice exclusively and have my students use it exclusively as well. I otherwise love it. But right now I use Endnote on Linux using Codeweavers Crossover office to add/remove citations to papers I write. I must then us MS Word to do the final formatting of the bibiography before submitting for publication. I was really hopeful a year or so ago that better bibliographic support would be built in by now. I am disturbed that people seem to be giving up now, but I am not sure what can be done to help. If Sun developers will not be able to work on this, could they provide a reasonable estimate of coding man hours needed based on the specs (and perhaps a cost estimate)? Could the community (me included) try to raise funding that could be ear-marked for this project? If enough money could be set aside, then perhaps the development could move forward. As with many people, I have little free time for this, but it is an important issue for me and I would like to help somehow. -Matt __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- --- David N. Wilson Co-Project Lead for the Bibliographic OpenOffice Project http://bibliographic.openoffice.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
