[dev] Some thoughts about our community
Hi all, some days ago I launched a stone into the water. I posted some consideration [1] about the OOoCon and more in general about our community. It seems that things don't happen alone. After the Michael Meeks announce [2] following the Kohei [3] post I think there is something to discuss about our community and how they should evolve. In fact it seems clear to me that the actual community rules, and more in general about how the project is managed, are not anymore suitable to manage what the Community asks. I'm deliberating using two terms, community and Community, because I think there is a common misinterpretation about what a community is. Hoping this start a constructive discussion, Ciao Davide [1] http://robertogaloppini.net/2007/10/02/openofficeorg-conference-2007-some-thoughts/ [2] http://www.gnome.org/~michael/activity.html#2007-10-02 [3] http://kohei.us/2007/10/02/history-of-calc-solver/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [dev] Some thoughts about our community
Hi Davide, i think [3] is a special thing and we all agree that it is a sad story. We should exactly identify what the problems were and should start to work on them. Does they still exists? Or have some things already changed. [2] is more or less around the JCA where i don't see that a further discussion make sense. If you want to start a discussion around community and community work i would suggest that you should clearly communicate your concerns. List all your concerns in detail and ideally suggest ways how we can improve it. I am sure that we are all open to discuss these points with you. What i personally don't like to do is a general discussion on a level where we talk more about politics than about real community work on a great product. Well a lot of things can be improved and i think we are working already on it. Bring up your concrete concerns and let us discuss Juergen Davide Dozza wrote: Hi all, some days ago I launched a stone into the water. I posted some consideration [1] about the OOoCon and more in general about our community. It seems that things don't happen alone. After the Michael Meeks announce [2] following the Kohei [3] post I think there is something to discuss about our community and how they should evolve. In fact it seems clear to me that the actual community rules, and more in general about how the project is managed, are not anymore suitable to manage what the Community asks. I'm deliberating using two terms, community and Community, because I think there is a common misinterpretation about what a community is. Hoping this start a constructive discussion, Ciao Davide [1] http://robertogaloppini.net/2007/10/02/openofficeorg-conference-2007-some-thoughts/ [2] http://www.gnome.org/~michael/activity.html#2007-10-02 [3] http://kohei.us/2007/10/02/history-of-calc-solver/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [dev] Some thoughts about our community
Davide, might be worth to listen about that (at least at the beginning): http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/10/04/open_season_four_shuttleworth/ Best, Charles. Davide Dozza a écrit : Hi all, some days ago I launched a stone into the water. I posted some consideration [1] about the OOoCon and more in general about our community. It seems that things don't happen alone. After the Michael Meeks announce [2] following the Kohei [3] post I think there is something to discuss about our community and how they should evolve. In fact it seems clear to me that the actual community rules, and more in general about how the project is managed, are not anymore suitable to manage what the Community asks. I'm deliberating using two terms, community and Community, because I think there is a common misinterpretation about what a community is. Hoping this start a constructive discussion, Ciao Davide [1] http://robertogaloppini.net/2007/10/02/openofficeorg-conference-2007-some-thoughts/ [2] http://www.gnome.org/~michael/activity.html#2007-10-02 [3] http://kohei.us/2007/10/02/history-of-calc-solver/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [dev] Some thoughts about our community
Hi Juergen, I wouldn't discuss about [2] and [3]. They are just examples and they have been discussing on other places. I would like to discuss about [1] and why we are almost the same people any year, why the number of participants doesn't grow and why large proportion of people comes from few companies. The problem is always the same. IMHO our project is likely definable as big companies project with an end-user community collaboration. What I would like to see is the project transformed in a really free software community project with companies collaboration, maybe with a sort of hybridization model. Even IMHO this is the main reason because our community doesn't grow as they should. I think is time to change some rules. The model is showing his limits. What are, at the moment, the proposals to solve such problem and open our project to external contributions also in term of management? A geological era ago (in 2001) someone proposed the creation of a foundation. http://www.openoffice.org/white_papers/OOo_project/openofficefoundation.html This argument has been discussed privately every year. Is it time maybe to rivive this discussion? Davide Juergen Schmidt wrote: Hi Davide, i think [3] is a special thing and we all agree that it is a sad story. We should exactly identify what the problems were and should start to work on them. Does they still exists? Or have some things already changed. [2] is more or less around the JCA where i don't see that a further discussion make sense. If you want to start a discussion around community and community work i would suggest that you should clearly communicate your concerns. List all your concerns in detail and ideally suggest ways how we can improve it. I am sure that we are all open to discuss these points with you. What i personally don't like to do is a general discussion on a level where we talk more about politics than about real community work on a great product. Well a lot of things can be improved and i think we are working already on it. Bring up your concrete concerns and let us discuss Juergen Davide Dozza wrote: Hi all, some days ago I launched a stone into the water. I posted some consideration [1] about the OOoCon and more in general about our community. It seems that things don't happen alone. After the Michael Meeks announce [2] following the Kohei [3] post I think there is something to discuss about our community and how they should evolve. In fact it seems clear to me that the actual community rules, and more in general about how the project is managed, are not anymore suitable to manage what the Community asks. I'm deliberating using two terms, community and Community, because I think there is a common misinterpretation about what a community is. Hoping this start a constructive discussion, Ciao Davide [1] http://robertogaloppini.net/2007/10/02/openofficeorg-conference-2007-some-thoughts/ [2] http://www.gnome.org/~michael/activity.html#2007-10-02 [3] http://kohei.us/2007/10/02/history-of-calc-solver/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [dev] Some thoughts about our community
Hi Davide, Davide Dozza wrote: Hi Juergen, I wouldn't discuss about [2] and [3]. They are just examples and they have been discussing on other places. I would like to discuss about [1] and why we are almost the same people any year, why the number of participants doesn't grow and why large proportion of people comes from few companies. i think that is obvious because these companies invest a lot of money in the project in form of developer resources. The work has to be done and it is good that some companies pay full time developers for their work. Otherwise we wouldn't be there where we are today. Each individual contributor can help a little bit and that is fantastic. Every little contribution is important. See for example localization, it is an area where our community works great because it is much easier to extract this piece of work from the normal development process. It is more difficult in other areas but it is not impossible and of course i claim that things become better and better. And we do of course can do a lot of more things to improve and simplify it. And of course i would say it is the same as for other open source projects as well, isn't it. I think Linux is driven in the same way. Huge amount of work is done by full time developers of companies and additionally to that tons of smaller contributions from individuals. The problem is always the same. IMHO our project is likely definable as big companies project with an end-user community collaboration. i don't think so. But isn't it more that people who do most of the work can control more. Or let us say you need some kind of reputation to get accepted in a community. I wouldn't say that Sun control everything automatically but Sun does a lot and of course with the right quality. So it is natural that Sun or better developers paid from Sun drive things forward. From my point of view it is often quite simply as it is. If you want something and it fits in the project rules simply start to do it. Don't expect that others do the work for you. When you the right things and the quality is good you get your reputation over time and more and more people will listen to you. It is not enough to discuss only and of course it is not enough to make too much noise with only minor contributions. Sun hasn't make too much noise about their contributions in the past and that is maybe the reason why others are put in the wrong light. What I would like to see is the project transformed in a really free software community project with companies collaboration, maybe with a sort of hybridization model. i am not sure if i understand what you mean but i think we already have that or better had it in the past. I am not sure how the collaboration with Novell for example should work in the future. Even IMHO this is the main reason because our community doesn't grow as they should. are you sure? I think is time to change some rules. The model is showing his limits. what exactly do you mean? What are, at the moment, the proposals to solve such problem and open our project to external contributions also in term of management? A geological era ago (in 2001) someone proposed the creation of a foundation. http://www.openoffice.org/white_papers/OOo_project/openofficefoundation.html This argument has been discussed privately every year. Is it time maybe to rivive this discussion? i think not, what would it really change? Ask yourself if you would change anything for your own work on the project. And if yes what does you really prevent form doing it today? Juergen Davide Juergen Schmidt wrote: Hi Davide, i think [3] is a special thing and we all agree that it is a sad story. We should exactly identify what the problems were and should start to work on them. Does they still exists? Or have some things already changed. [2] is more or less around the JCA where i don't see that a further discussion make sense. If you want to start a discussion around community and community work i would suggest that you should clearly communicate your concerns. List all your concerns in detail and ideally suggest ways how we can improve it. I am sure that we are all open to discuss these points with you. What i personally don't like to do is a general discussion on a level where we talk more about politics than about real community work on a great product. Well a lot of things can be improved and i think we are working already on it. Bring up your concrete concerns and let us discuss Juergen Davide Dozza wrote: Hi all, some days ago I launched a stone into the water. I posted some consideration [1] about the OOoCon and more in general about our community. It seems that things don't happen alone. After the Michael Meeks announce [2] following the Kohei [3] post I think there is something to discuss about our community and how they should evolve. In fact it seems clear to me that the actual community rules, and
RE: [dev] Some thoughts about our community
Speaking as a community participant... When I first became involved in OOo, I was not completely comfortable with the license arrangement, but thought Sun should be given the benefit of the doubt based on all of their contributions. However, let's look at this objectively. Here are some facts. 1. Sun makes many contributions to the code. 2. Sun manages the build process and dominates the decisions on what gets included in the official OOo distribution. 3. One of Sun's conditions for any code to be included in the official OOo distribution is that the copyright for the code must be assigned to Sun. 4. Sun takes those contributions and releases them in their proprietary product StarOffice. 5. There is dissatisfaction in the community over items 2 and 3. This dissatisfaction results in some companies and individuals not being willing to contribute code or participate in the community. 6. This dissatisfaction has already resulted in several forks. Some forks have completely diverged, like NeoOffice and Lotus Symphony, while some for now are just patch sets or enhancements to the official build, like OxygenOffice and Novell's distribution. Now for some predictions: - If things in the community stay the same, I think a fork (or continued growth of the existing forks) is inevitable. This fork might just be patch sets in the official build, or it might be a split that looks more like the various BSD's that port each other's code all the time. This fork (or forks) will include code that has not been assigned to Sun under the JCA. - Its possible that Sun could stop distributing its code changes as open source, although I think that is very unlikely. It is perhaps more likely that Sun may re-license all or a portion of its code under the GPL, preventing it from being used in other commercial projects. - The forked project may decide to release its changes under the GPL (to the extent possible), making it impossible for Sun to include them in its proprietary product, StarOffice. - In my opinion, a fork will be a good thing for the project and code base by increasing developer interest and enthusiasm. The competition will also be good for both projects. - One of the big question is: where will the bulk of the community go to. Will they stay with the Sun-dominated process? Will they move to the fork? If they move to the fork, will they be able to bring the OpenOffice.org name with them, or does Sun effectively control that name as well? If not, what will the new name be? (OpenOffice.net?) The bottom line is that Sun released StarOffice under the LGPL for its own reasons, the community contributes to this project for its own reasons. It is what it is, as they say. The big question is what this portends for the future. Those are my thoughts. Allen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
