Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-legal-talk] OSM IDs as foreign keys (was: ODbL virality questions)
On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com wrote: There's no OSM information in wikitravel or wikitravel links in OSM. I'm glade to read this discussion. Recently, a long thread on the main list was talking about putting wikipedia URL's in OSM and even one bot started to do it automatically for a country. I posted to that thread to say how it is a bad practice to add url's in osm objects and that other applications should point to OSM and not the other way. But I felt a bit alone defending this position. It 's clear that an API returning an object ID based on the lat/lon (with a small marging) and a tag would be helpful for other applications who be helpful. The question is if it has to be done within OSM serveurs or not. Pieren ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-legal-talk] OSM IDs as foreign keys (was: ODbL virality questions)
2009/10/6 Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com: Any time I discuss this, I always refer to Wikitravel Press. Now that I've put the video online, everyone who wasn't at SOTM08 can also see what Jani had to say on this topic. See http://vimeo.com/6847540 , and (if you want to lose all context) skip to 6:00. For those of you who don't want to watch the video or can't, they use the name and approximate location to match things like restaurants and hotels between wikitravel and OSM. There's no OSM information in wikitravel or wikitravel links in OSM. I understand how this may work for buildings and other POIs and it seems like a really good solution to the problem. What I'm trying to figure out is how this would apply to things like long stretches of highways? ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-legal-talk] OSM IDs as foreign keys (was: ODbL virality questions)
2009/10/7 Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com: On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 12:21 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/10/6 Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com: Any time I discuss this, I always refer to Wikitravel Press. Now that I've put the video online, everyone who wasn't at SOTM08 can also see what Jani had to say on this topic. See http://vimeo.com/6847540 , and (if you want to lose all context) skip to 6:00. For those of you who don't want to watch the video or can't, they use the name and approximate location to match things like restaurants and hotels between wikitravel and OSM. There's no OSM information in wikitravel or wikitravel links in OSM. I understand how this may work for buildings and other POIs and it seems like a really good solution to the problem. What I'm trying to figure out is how this would apply to things like long stretches of highways? Ah, you might want to have a look at OpenLR - a recently proposed standard for ensuring that two map providers are referring to the same stretch of road whilst having separate geodatabases. Primarily aimed at exchanging traffic data between satnav providers it solves the same problem we're talking about here - you could refer to roads in openstreetmap without needing to know their osmid, and it's robust against moving things around a bit and/or splitting, merging etc. I'll hold off saying it definitely is the answer since currently it works in theory but I haven't yet seen it working in practise! The reason I ask is there is a number of major highways with wikipedia tags that probably go inverse, wikipedia links to OSM rather than OSM tagging for wikipedia, I assume that's what the wikipedia tags were for? ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-legal-talk] OSM IDs as foreign keys (was: ODbL virality questions)
On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 12:21 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/10/6 Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com: Any time I discuss this, I always refer to Wikitravel Press. Now that I've put the video online, everyone who wasn't at SOTM08 can also see what Jani had to say on this topic. See http://vimeo.com/6847540 , and (if you want to lose all context) skip to 6:00. For those of you who don't want to watch the video or can't, they use the name and approximate location to match things like restaurants and hotels between wikitravel and OSM. There's no OSM information in wikitravel or wikitravel links in OSM. I understand how this may work for buildings and other POIs and it seems like a really good solution to the problem. What I'm trying to figure out is how this would apply to things like long stretches of highways? Ah, you might want to have a look at OpenLR - a recently proposed standard for ensuring that two map providers are referring to the same stretch of road whilst having separate geodatabases. Primarily aimed at exchanging traffic data between satnav providers it solves the same problem we're talking about here - you could refer to roads in openstreetmap without needing to know their osmid, and it's robust against moving things around a bit and/or splitting, merging etc. I'll hold off saying it definitely is the answer since currently it works in theory but I haven't yet seen it working in practise! Cheers, Andy ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-legal-talk] OSM IDs as foreign keys (was: ODbL virality questions)
Hiya, 2009/10/6 Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com: On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 8:46 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: If we really want to head in a direction where external users refer to OSM objects, then I think it would be wise to manifest that in the database somehow, and create some kind of permanence API or so, where you can request a permanent handle for a certain object from the API, and the API will give you a number, and then if someone deletes and re-creates an object they will be able to transfer that number to the new object somehow. I'm a fan of the fuzzy matching that Wikitravel Press are using, for two main reasons - it works in theory, and it works in practise too. Most importantly - neither project knows what the primary key of the other is, and that makes everything more robust. One problem with that is the unknown legal status of the coordinates data in wikipedia and as a result, the legal status of such matches derived from that data. I also know from practice that such matching is computationally difficult and carries high error rate even when done right -- I have tried doing a similar thing for village names which are non-unique and the results always needed a human to check and correct part of the matches. This doesn't disqualify this approach but whatever system will use the automatic matches will probably allow users to correct matches that are found to be wrong and the corrections will need to be stored some way at which point you're back to the original problem of what to use for the foreign key. If we can come up with a permanence API like that described by Frederik, I would love to see it, but this also is difficult to do sensibly. Cheers ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
Re: [OSM-dev] [OSM-legal-talk] OSM IDs as foreign keys (was: ODbL virality questions)
2009/10/6 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: 2009/10/7 Andy Allan gravityst...@gmail.com: On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 12:21 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: I understand how this may work for buildings and other POIs and it seems like a really good solution to the problem. What I'm trying to figure out is how this would apply to things like long stretches of highways? There are also relations for complex networks of cycleways etc, many of which make appearance in other databases as a single record (databases such as wikipedia) Ah, you might want to have a look at OpenLR - a recently proposed standard for ensuring that two map providers are referring to the same stretch of road whilst having separate geodatabases. Primarily aimed at exchanging traffic data between satnav providers it solves the same problem we're talking about here - you could refer to roads in openstreetmap without needing to know their osmid, and it's robust against moving things around a bit and/or splitting, merging etc. I'll hold off saying it definitely is the answer since currently it works in theory but I haven't yet seen it working in practise! It gets even more complex for dual-carriage ways, especially with a tram line separating the lanes, such as [1], etc. I just had a brief look at the OpenLR whitepaper and it, as you describe, ensures that two map providers are referring to the same map object - a point or a stretch of road (Line location in OpenLR-speak). The problem here is that a database such as wikipedia is not a map provider. To (nearly) reliably match a wikipedia page to a map object you have to reproduce part of the geometry in wikipedia and end up reproducing the map, which I think is what using a foreign key is trying to avoid. I said nearly reliably because even in OSM we have objects that have the same geometry but aren't quire the same object. The reason I ask is there is a number of major highways with wikipedia tags that probably go inverse, wikipedia links to OSM rather than OSM tagging for wikipedia, I assume that's what the wikipedia tags were for? I'm afraid I don't understand what you're asking here. Cheers 1. http://www.openstreetmap.pl/wp/?lat=52.226092lon=21.013951zoom=18 ___ dev mailing list dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev
