Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote:
On 1/28/11 12:03 PM, Anthony wrote:
Although, frankly, I've always thought the OSMF ban was more of a
don't-ask-don't-tell one. And I guess now that my contributions are
going to be deleted anyway I can come clean. I've been tracing from
Google maps for pretty much the entire time I've been contributing,
and it hasn't hurt anyone.
consider this scenario:
Google decides that open mapquest based on osm contributors
tracing from Google imagery is an issue.
they decided to sue in the US, and name the OSMF US organization
(of which i am a board member) as a party to the suit (it's normal
practice to name lots of people/organizations to such suits.
OSMF US hasn't purchased insurance to cover directors (maybe we
should, i'm going to get it on the agenda for the next board meeting).
as a result of the suit, as a director of a named party, i lose my house.
now has that hurt anyone?
something to think about.
Something for *you* to think about maybe, if you think it's something
possible. Personally I think it's absurd.
I said it hasn't hurt anyone. I never said there isn't an impossible
scenario that anyone can imagine where someone might get hurt. If we
want to invent imaginary scenarios, I'm sure I can invent one where my
*not* using Google imagery leads to someone getting hurt or dying.
On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 1:26 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:
Then let's set up a second build process, somewhere outside of
openstreetmap.{de|org}, where someone who is interested in a non-OSM version
of JOSM can build releases to his heart's content and distribute them.
Releases that do not talk to the OSM server preferably, and releases that
*if* they talk to the OSM server, clearly identify themselves. OSMF could
then decide to block those releases from accessing the API at any time if
they so desire.
It sounds to me like Dirk has said he wants JOSM to be a tool which
works with any server that speaks the API, not just openstreetmap.org.
This makes sense, since the software allows people to change the API.
So, I'd say that any software specific to openstreetmap.org should be
the special build. If you want to make a compile-time option speak
only to openstreetmap.org, that sounds like a better (and, much
simpler to implement) solution compared to building software which is
specific to OSMF and then hacking on support for other servers in a
special build.
In fact I would be very happy if someone from outside OSM - one of the
much-talked-about non-OSM users of JOSM - would set up this build process.
I'll happily help them prepare the patches that get rid of tile
blacklisting.
At this point the patch is simple. Just don't upgrade to the new
version with your change. But as time goes on it's just going to get
more and more difficult.
In any case, whether the crippled version of JOSM is the default or
the special build, it would be best implemented as a build-time or
user-hidden run-time option, than as a separate codebase.
In C syntax, #define CRIPPLE_TO_ONLY_WORK_WITH_OSMF 0/1.
I'm really not interested in wasting my time learning how to build
JOSM, but if it comes to that I guess I could do so.
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Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Jo winfi...@gmail.com wrote: OSM has permission to use imagery from Yahoo and Bing for tracing. Not from the owners of the images. As I said, many of the Google images are *the exact same images* as the ones being traced from through Yahoo and/or Bing. It makes no sense that one would be a copyright infringement, and the other wouldn't. ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 3:10 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: What argument do you have that tracing Google images is copyright infringement? Perhaps the link below will help you: http://www.edparsons.com/2008/06/what-map-maker-is-is-not/ especially the last comment from Ed regards Pieren ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 9:31 AM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 8:10 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 2:59 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Yes. It is certainly a problematic case but I am absolutely sure that the overwhelming use of Google in JOSM is to trace from it, compared to a negligible amount of non-copyright-infringing use. What argument do you have that tracing Google images is copyright infringement? Tracing Google Maps tiles is against their terms of use I'm not sure that's true. And I'm not sure it's enforcible even if it is true. If openstreetmap wants to take that position, fine. But JOSM is used by more than just openstreetmap. , as is displaying them in an application other than a webpage via their Google Maps API. That's a completely different argument from the one I was responding to, though. And I'm still not sure how it's enforcible. It's not like you have to provide a username and password to access the tiles. They're there for everyone to view, through the standard HTTP. If you want to take a conservative legal position, you are free to do so, but you shouldn't impose these restrictions on everyone else. Just use a user-agent of JOSM, and if Google wants to block it, they'll block it. For example, Google seems to be willfully ignorant of Wikimapia, who uses Google Maps API to offer a tracing system (mostly because Google could start monetizing the API by displaying advertisements if they wanted). Or maybe they just realize they don't have a legal leg to stand on, and you're the one who is ignorant, about the law. I imagine the story would be slightly different if we simply scraped the tile images (against ToU) into JOSM, even if it wasn't for tracing. JOSM is software. And it's used for more than just openstreetmap. On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 3:10 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: What argument do you have that tracing Google images is copyright infringement? Perhaps the link below will help you: http://www.edparsons.com/2008/06/what-map-maker-is-is-not/ especially the last comment from Ed I don't see any legal argument on that page. Perhaps you got the link wrong and you meant http://www.systemed.net/blog/?p=100 ? ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 10:06 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: I don't see any legal argument on that page. Perhaps you got the link wrong and you meant http://www.systemed.net/blog/?p=100 ? In case it was TLDR: Case law firmly establishes that tracing from aerial photography is not an infringement of any copyright in that imagery. ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
On 1/28/11 10:08 AM, Anthony wrote: On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 10:06 AM, Anthonyo...@inbox.org wrote: I don't see any legal argument on that page. Perhaps you got the link wrong and you meant http://www.systemed.net/blog/?p=100 ? In case it was TLDR: Case law firmly establishes that tracing from aerial photography is not an infringement of any copyright in that imagery. there's a great deal more to the article than just that blanket statement, and the comments deserve review, some of them are well thought out and well informed. this is not so clear cut as you want to make it out to be. richard ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
2011/1/28 Anthony o...@inbox.org: this is not so clear cut as you want to make it out to be. Actually my intention was to point out precisely that it is not clear cut. And that's why categorical blocking is wrong. According to the policy the project members were following until now, in unclear cases we tend to react (maybe over-)cautiously, so it seems reasonable to avoid problems with people copying from Googlemaps into OSM, and even more with the experience made in PL2 and comments from users who did exactly this: tracing G. Cheers, Martin ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
OSM has permission to use imagery from Yahoo and Bing for tracing. We don't have such permission from Google, so if people trace from Google to add data to OSM, this will create problems in the future. Why can't we be happy with what we do have? I'm a very happy camper since MS decided to do let us use their imagery. It's not the end of the world that it's 3 years old. Cheers, Jo 2011/1/28 Anthony o...@inbox.org On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 2:59 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Yes. It is certainly a problematic case but I am absolutely sure that the overwhelming use of Google in JOSM is to trace from it, compared to a negligible amount of non-copyright-infringing use. What argument do you have that tracing Google images is copyright infringement? And why doesn't that same argument apply to Bing or Yahoo? In some cases, Google is even using the exact same images as Bing and/or Yahoo. If you want to make the argument that tracing Google images is copyright infringement, you are free to do so. But JOSM is used by more than just openstreetmap, so don't impose that (incorrect) idea onto everyone. ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 8:10 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 2:59 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Yes. It is certainly a problematic case but I am absolutely sure that the overwhelming use of Google in JOSM is to trace from it, compared to a negligible amount of non-copyright-infringing use. What argument do you have that tracing Google images is copyright infringement? Tracing Google Maps tiles is against their terms of use, as is displaying them in an application other than a webpage via their Google Maps API. For example, Google seems to be willfully ignorant of Wikimapia, who uses Google Maps API to offer a tracing system (mostly because Google could start monetizing the API by displaying advertisements if they wanted). I imagine the story would be slightly different if we simply scraped the tile images (against ToU) into JOSM, even if it wasn't for tracing. ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
[josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
JOSM devs, with the templated TMS layer it is now trivial to display Google aerial imagery or Google maps as a background in JOSM. Doing so might violate Google's terms of use already (I am unsure but I guess that using their tiles without a Google logo is not OK); but of course using their data for anything to do with OSM is a big No-No. I wonder if we should thus build a blacklist into the Imagery layer so that it will refuse to use certain tile or WMS URLs. Potlatch already does this. This would of course be nannying our users, something I've always been against; our users should be able to make these decisions for themselves. On the other hand, where in the past it would at least have required some hacking and knowledge to use Google, it is now a simple entry in the imagery configuration and I fear that this makes it too easy (a novice could read this cool tip somewhere and apply it unthinkingly). If we ban Google backgrounds, of course anyone with a little Java skill (or a little web server redirection magic) could circumvent this, but at least if somebody compiles their own, modified JOSM version they cannot say that they didn't know. Another option that we could think about is setting certain tags on the uploaded changeset that indicate what background layers were used (e.g. source:tile-url=blah.google.com/blah/blah). We could inform users of our doing so but disallow removal of these tags, which would hopefully make sure they only use legal stuff. But that would run the risk of invading users' privacy (e.g. they could be using a tile source at the office intranet, thus betraying that they were mapping during working hours...). And of course this, too, could be circumvented. Opinions on the whole thing? Problem is, if it is *too* easy to load Google backgrounds, we (as a project) could be accused of knowingly inviting tracing from Google. Bye Frederik ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
El Thursday 27 January 2011, Frederik Ramm escribió: Opinions on the whole thing? Problem is, if it is too easy to load Google backgrounds, we (as a project) could be accused of knowingly inviting tracing from Google. I don't think this is a good idea. The technology is not bad, what is bad is the use of it. So, all the fault will be the user's fault. JOSM shouldn't be blamed for it. It's like this printers that don't let you scan or print money. As if a common user will be printing money to use it. Or as if real forger would use a common printer. Nonsense! What if I want to print money to play Monopoly? -- María Arias de Reyna Domínguez Área de Operaciones Emergya Consultoría Tfno: +34 954 51 75 77 / +34 607 43 74 27 Fax: +34 954 51 64 73 www.emergya.es ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org writes: I wonder if we should thus build a blacklist into the Imagery layer so that it will refuse to use certain tile or WMS URLs. Potlatch already does this. I'd just show a visible warning instead of having JOSM completely refuse. ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
I agree that this isn't a good way to deal with the problem. Now with Bing there is a good alternative, so only a few 'hardliners' would like to do so, to make the current ultimate map of their area, with fresh material. I guess this guys are able to setup a proxy to do so. It's IMHO not on us to make sure that they use the right aerial imageries. Matthias ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
What about a big red must-read dialog box when using google? Nannying may be bad, but providing information isn't. Judging by the amount of “I've just used google maps to ... diary posts on osm.org this *will* lead to trouble otherwise. Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org schrieb: JOSM devs, with the templated TMS layer it is now trivial to display Google aerial imagery or Google maps as a background in JOSM. Doing so might violate Google's terms of use already (I am unsure but I guess that using their tiles without a Google logo is not OK); but of course using their data for anything to do with OSM is a big No-No. I wonder if we should thus build a blacklist into the Imagery layer so that it will refuse to use certain tile or WMS URLs. Potlatch already does this. This would of course be nannying our users, something I've always been against; our users should be able to make these decisions for themselves. On the other hand, where in the past it would at least have required some hacking and knowledge to use Google, it is now a simple entry in the imagery configuration and I fear that this makes it too easy (a novice could read this cool tip somewhere and apply it unthinkingly). If we ban Google backgrounds, of course anyone with a little Java skill (or a little web server redirection magic) could circumvent this, but at least if somebody compiles their own, modified JOSM version they cannot say that they didn't know. Another option that we could think about is setting certain tags on the uploaded changeset that indicate what background layers were used (e.g. source:tile-url=blah.google.com/blah/blah). We could inform users of our doing so but disallow removal of these tags, which would hopefully make sure they only use legal stuff. But that would run the risk of invading users' privacy (e.g. they could be using a tile source at the office intranet, thus betraying that they were mapping during working hours...). And of course this, too, could be circumvented. Opinions on the whole thing? Problem is, if it is *too* easy to load Google backgrounds, we (as a project) could be accused of knowingly inviting tracing from Google. Bye Frederik ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 8:26 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Another option that we could think about is setting certain tags on the uploaded changeset that indicate what background layers were used (e.g. source:tile-url=blah.google.com/blah/blah). We could inform users of our doing so but disallow removal of these tags, which would hopefully make sure they only use legal stuff. But that would run the risk of invading users' privacy (e.g. they could be using a tile source at the office intranet, thus betraying that they were mapping during working hours...). And of course this, too, could be circumvented. Please, if this is implemented have an option to turn it off. I already tag as source:location=nearmap. And yes, often I use LAN addresses as custom sources, these would have no meaning to someone else, so if such a feature did happen, please give a nice option in Preferences to turn it off. ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
Stefan wrote: Judging by the amount of “I've just used google maps to ... diary posts on osm.org this *will* lead to trouble otherwise. Yep. Potlatch 1 always checked for the presence of 'google' in the tile URL and refused to display the tile if so. When Potlatch 2 was first released, we hadn't added this check (it was a TODO but I was also slightly intrigued to see what would happen). Sure enough, within about a week, people were jubilantly posting Potlatch 2 allows you to trace from Google! in the Russian OSM forum - and were doing so. When asked to stop, one typical response is I don't think it's illegal and I don't care. So I added the block back in, with some degree of reluctance but no great surprise. I think Frederik's right when he says Problem is, if it is *too* easy to load Google backgrounds, we (as a project) could be accused of knowingly inviting tracing from Google. We can't prevent it entirely, but if OSM is ever sued for infringement it will aid our case enormously to show that we have taken reasonable measures to discourage it. That's not too far-fetched: I believe OSMF did recently receive a cease and desist from one geodata supplier who believes their rights have been infringed. With that in mind, I believe the block in Potlatch is a responsible decision to help the future of the project, and it would gladden me to see JOSM do the same. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Fwd-Filter-Google-from-Imagery-tp5965655p5965776.html Sent from the JOSM Development mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
2011/1/27 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: violate Google's terms of use already (I am unsure but I guess that using their tiles without a Google logo is not OK) +1, I guess so too. ; but of course using their data for anything to do with OSM is a big No-No. well, comparing should be OK (but in many areas of little use, because their resolution is mostly great, but the positional accuracy often isn't). If we ban Google backgrounds, of course anyone with a little Java skill (or a little web server redirection magic) could circumvent this yes, but as you point out: it will strengthen our position in the case when Google sues us for infringement (we could point to the user and say that we took reasonable measures to avoid it). Another option that we could think about is setting certain tags on the uploaded changeset that indicate what background layers were used (e.g. source:tile-url=blah.google.com/blah/blah). -1 for privacy reasons we could also allow to display the Google tiles, and display a Google logo (and fullfill all other requirements on behalf of Google if there are), but deactivate all editing while they are displayed (i.e. no selection, creation, deletion and movement of points, ways and relations, no tag editing). Cheers, Martin ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
On Thu, 27 Jan 2011 21:20:10 +1100, Andrew Harvey wrote: On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 8:26 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Another option that we could think about is setting certain tags on the uploaded changeset that indicate what background layers were used (e.g. source:tile-url=blah.google.com/blah/blah). We could inform users of our doing so but disallow removal of these tags, which would hopefully make sure they only use legal stuff. But that would run the risk of invading users' privacy (e.g. they could be using a tile source at the office intranet, thus betraying that they were mapping during working hours...). And of course this, too, could be circumvented. Please, if this is implemented have an option to turn it off. I already tag as source:location=nearmap. It could be useful to have this as an extra option to automatically add user defined source (not tile urls, which may be a local proxy or so) - the default presets should have some reasonable values (those currently used) defined for this, like source=landsat, etc ... So while providing good defaults, anybody can change them or turn them off. Martin ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
Hi, Ulf Lamping wrote: Reasoning: Using Google or alike to check a GPX trace to be reasonable (e.g. the shape of the track corresponds to the aerial imagery) But then again, there are myriad tools out there that can be used for exactly that. Google Earth, for example. I agree with you that this is a legitimate use of Google data but I don't think that this necessarily has to be done with JOSM. On the contrary, by saying: We want to make it easy FOR JOSM USERS to check their GPX traces against Google imagery is already on the edge because JOSM is mainly and primarily an OSM upload tool. Maybe we should make a version of JOSM that has no OSM editing capability (just drop the OSM data layer and all functions related to it). That could then display anything you want. I've added a very simple blacklisting mechanism now that basically sets a blacklisted flag on the imagery layer and, for now, simply grays out blacklisted entries in the imagery menu. If someone fancies, they could modify that to do all sort of warning messages etc.; however after this discussion I am pretty sure that whatever we do we must make sure that you are only allowed to upload or save OSM data if you have either not displayed Google images, or not modified your data after doing so. No amount of yes I am really sure buttons should allow you to bypass that - we can always do a warning message that goes: Warning, unsaved data. You requested to display a blacklisted background layer. You will not be able to save or upload your edits after enabling that layer. Are you sure you want to proceed or whatever. I understand that there will be a tiny fraction of users negatively affected by this, but I think it is necessary. We've witnessed a growing number of Google violations in the past year and I would not want JOSM's reputation to be tainted as the editor that makes this easy. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
Matthias Meißer dig...@arcor.de writes: Now with Bing there is a good alternative, so only a few 'hardliners' would like to do so, to make the current ultimate map of their area, with fresh material. I guess this guys are able to setup a proxy to do so. It's IMHO not on us to make sure that they use the right aerial imageries. There are still many areas where Google's imagery is a lot better than Bing's. Like right here where I live Bing imagery only goes to z13. Yahoo's images are already a lot better and allow some tracing. But, the best by far are Google's. The temptation is certainly still there. Matthias ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 6:53 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: I understand that there will be a tiny fraction of users negatively affected by this, but I think it is necessary. We've witnessed a growing number of Google violations in the past year and I would not want JOSM's reputation to be tainted as the editor that makes this easy. Oh please. A tiny fraction? I'm sure there are lots of people who use Google aerials to trace for OSM. We just aren't dumb enough to tell anyone about it. At the very least allow people to use whatever imagery that they want when they're using non-openstreetmap servers. This can then be yet another reason to use a fork, and not OSM. Or do you really want to force us to fork JOSM too? ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Fwd: Filter Google from Imagery?
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: At the very least allow people to use whatever imagery that they want when they're using non-openstreetmap servers. Better yet, just send the user-agent JOSM with every request. Let Google decide whether or not to block access. Any blacklist you devise will be easily defeated anyway. ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
