Re: Slack for Spark Community: Merging various threads

[Mich Talebzadeh]

Hi,

After all the fireworks and quote "this super duper topic"  has a decision
being made on what to use as the official  or endorsed slack type platform?
This I think would be most useful for the monolithic product release votes
a least (yep the one with +1 etc).

To be fair, there has been a lot of heat but little light so to speak. In
the meantime you are welcome to use the Apache spark community
sparkcommunitytalk.slack.com run by community for the community.  I have
been told that some of the features may not work after the trial period is
over but otherwise OK. However I believe this should be the case with any
slack (Non Pro) use, including the one mentioned as  Delta Lake slack
unless subsidised. The membership numbers should be taken with caution as
my understanding is that only admin can remove members.


Mich Talebzadeh,
Lead Solutions Architect/Engineering Lead
Palantir Technologies Limited
London
United Kingdom


   view my Linkedin profile



 https://en.everybodywiki.com/Mich_Talebzadeh



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On Wed, 12 Apr 2023 at 22:28, Dongjoon Hyun  wrote:

> Thank you, Chitral.
>
> Dongjoon
>
> On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 12:08 AM Chitral Verma 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> Thanks for starting a discussion on this super-important topic.
>>
>> I'm not sure if this is already considered, but Discord is also a viable
>> option and many many open-source projects and communities are using it.
>>
>>- It's *mostly* free with no online user limitations like slack.
>>- Has a big feature overlap with Slack.
>>- Sign up process is simple and straightforward. Clients for web/
>>desktop/ mobile are available.
>>- Policies and controlling can be possibly done via bots + designated
>>channel managers.
>>- allows channels like Slack for the organisation of messages.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 at 08:09, Dongjoon Hyun 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you, Holden, Bjorn, Maciej.
>>>
>>> Yes, those are also valid.
>>>
>>> Dongjoon.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 8, 2023 at 4:20 AM Maciej  wrote:
>>>
 @Bjørn Matrix (represented by element in the linked summary. Also,
 since the last year, Rocket Chat uses Matrix under the hood) is already
 used for user support and related discussions for a number of large
 projects, since gitter migrated there. And it is not like we need Slack or
 its replacement in the first place. Some of the Slack features are useful
 for us, but its not exactly the best tool for user support IMHO.

 @Dongjoon There are probably two more things we should discuss:

- What are data privacy obligations while keeping a communication
channel, advertised as official, outside the ASF?  Does it put it out of
scope for the ASF legal and data privacy teams?

If I recall correctly, Slack requires at least some of the
formalities to be handled by the primary owner and as far as I am aware 
 the
project is not a legal person. Not sure how linen.dev or another
retention tool fits into all of that, but it's unrealistic to expect it
makes things easier.

This might sound hypothetical, but we've already seen users leaking
sensitive information on the mail list and requesting erasure (which,
luckily for us, is not technically possible).

- How are we going to handle moderation, if we assume number of
users comparable to Delta Lake Slack and open registration? At minimum 
 we
have to ensure that the ASF Code of Conduct is respected. An official
channel or not, failure to do that reflects badly on the project, the 
 ASF
and all of us.

 --
 Maciej



 On 4/7/23 21:02, Bjørn Jørgensen wrote:

 Yes, I have done some search for slack alternatives
 
 I feel that we should do some search, to find if there can be a
 better solution than slack.
 For what I have found, there are two that can be an alternative for
 slack.

 Rocket.Chat  

 and

 Zulip Chat 
 Zulip Cloud Standard is free for open-source projects
 
 Witch means we get

- Unlimited search history
- File storage up to 10 GB per user
- Message retention policies

- Brand Zulip with your logo
- Priority commercial support
- Funds the Zulip open source project

Re: Slack for Spark Community: Merging various threads

[Dongjoon Hyun]

Thank you, Chitral.

Dongjoon

On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 12:08 AM Chitral Verma 
wrote:

> Hi all,
> Thanks for starting a discussion on this super-important topic.
>
> I'm not sure if this is already considered, but Discord is also a viable
> option and many many open-source projects and communities are using it.
>
>- It's *mostly* free with no online user limitations like slack.
>- Has a big feature overlap with Slack.
>- Sign up process is simple and straightforward. Clients for web/
>desktop/ mobile are available.
>- Policies and controlling can be possibly done via bots + designated
>channel managers.
>- allows channels like Slack for the organisation of messages.
>
>
> On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 at 08:09, Dongjoon Hyun 
> wrote:
>
>> Thank you, Holden, Bjorn, Maciej.
>>
>> Yes, those are also valid.
>>
>> Dongjoon.
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 8, 2023 at 4:20 AM Maciej  wrote:
>>
>>> @Bjørn Matrix (represented by element in the linked summary. Also, since
>>> the last year, Rocket Chat uses Matrix under the hood) is already used for
>>> user support and related discussions for a number of large projects, since
>>> gitter migrated there. And it is not like we need Slack or its replacement
>>> in the first place. Some of the Slack features are useful for us, but its
>>> not exactly the best tool for user support IMHO.
>>>
>>> @Dongjoon There are probably two more things we should discuss:
>>>
>>>- What are data privacy obligations while keeping a communication
>>>channel, advertised as official, outside the ASF?  Does it put it out of
>>>scope for the ASF legal and data privacy teams?
>>>
>>>If I recall correctly, Slack requires at least some of the
>>>formalities to be handled by the primary owner and as far as I am aware 
>>> the
>>>project is not a legal person. Not sure how linen.dev or another
>>>retention tool fits into all of that, but it's unrealistic to expect it
>>>makes things easier.
>>>
>>>This might sound hypothetical, but we've already seen users leaking
>>>sensitive information on the mail list and requesting erasure (which,
>>>luckily for us, is not technically possible).
>>>
>>>- How are we going to handle moderation, if we assume number of
>>>users comparable to Delta Lake Slack and open registration? At minimum we
>>>have to ensure that the ASF Code of Conduct is respected. An official
>>>channel or not, failure to do that reflects badly on the project, the ASF
>>>and all of us.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Maciej
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/7/23 21:02, Bjørn Jørgensen wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, I have done some search for slack alternatives
>>> 
>>> I feel that we should do some search, to find if there can be a
>>> better solution than slack.
>>> For what I have found, there are two that can be an alternative for
>>> slack.
>>>
>>> Rocket.Chat  
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> Zulip Chat 
>>> Zulip Cloud Standard is free for open-source projects
>>> 
>>> Witch means we get
>>>
>>>- Unlimited search history
>>>- File storage up to 10 GB per user
>>>- Message retention policies
>>>
>>>- Brand Zulip with your logo
>>>- Priority commercial support
>>>- Funds the Zulip open source project
>>>
>>>
>>> Rust is using zulip  
>>>
>>> We can import chats from slack
>>> 
>>> We can use zulip for events   With multi-use
>>> invite links , there’s no need
>>> to create individual Zulip invitations.  This means that PMC doesn't have
>>> to send a link to every user.
>>> CODE BLOCKS
>>>
>>> Discuss code with ease using Markdown code blocks, syntax highlighting,
>>> and code playgrounds
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> fre. 7. apr. 2023 kl. 18:54 skrev Holden Karau :
>>>
 I think there was some concern around how to make any sync channel show
 up in logs / index / search results?

 On Fri, Apr 7, 2023 at 9:41 AM Dongjoon Hyun 
 wrote:

> Thank you, All.
>
> I'm very satisfied with the focused and right questions for the real
> issues by removing irrelevant claims. :)
>
> Let me collect your relevant comments simply.
>
>
> # Category 1: Invitation Hurdle
>
> > The key question here is that do PMC members have the bandwidth of
> inviting everyone in user@ and dev@?
>
> > Extending this to inviting everyone on @user (over >4k  subscribers
> according to the previous thread) might be a stretch,
>
> > we should have an official project Slack with an easy invitation
> process.
>
>
> # Category 2: Controllability

Re: Slack for Spark Community: Merging various threads

[Chitral Verma]

Hi all,
Thanks for starting a discussion on this super-important topic.

I'm not sure if this is already considered, but Discord is also a viable
option and many many open-source projects and communities are using it.

   - It's *mostly* free with no online user limitations like slack.
   - Has a big feature overlap with Slack.
   - Sign up process is simple and straightforward. Clients for web/
   desktop/ mobile are available.
   - Policies and controlling can be possibly done via bots + designated
   channel managers.
   - allows channels like Slack for the organisation of messages.


On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 at 08:09, Dongjoon Hyun  wrote:

> Thank you, Holden, Bjorn, Maciej.
>
> Yes, those are also valid.
>
> Dongjoon.
>
> On Sat, Apr 8, 2023 at 4:20 AM Maciej  wrote:
>
>> @Bjørn Matrix (represented by element in the linked summary. Also, since
>> the last year, Rocket Chat uses Matrix under the hood) is already used for
>> user support and related discussions for a number of large projects, since
>> gitter migrated there. And it is not like we need Slack or its replacement
>> in the first place. Some of the Slack features are useful for us, but its
>> not exactly the best tool for user support IMHO.
>>
>> @Dongjoon There are probably two more things we should discuss:
>>
>>- What are data privacy obligations while keeping a communication
>>channel, advertised as official, outside the ASF?  Does it put it out of
>>scope for the ASF legal and data privacy teams?
>>
>>If I recall correctly, Slack requires at least some of the
>>formalities to be handled by the primary owner and as far as I am aware 
>> the
>>project is not a legal person. Not sure how linen.dev or another
>>retention tool fits into all of that, but it's unrealistic to expect it
>>makes things easier.
>>
>>This might sound hypothetical, but we've already seen users leaking
>>sensitive information on the mail list and requesting erasure (which,
>>luckily for us, is not technically possible).
>>
>>- How are we going to handle moderation, if we assume number of users
>>comparable to Delta Lake Slack and open registration? At minimum we have 
>> to
>>ensure that the ASF Code of Conduct is respected. An official channel or
>>not, failure to do that reflects badly on the project, the ASF and all of
>>us.
>>
>> --
>> Maciej
>>
>>
>>
>> On 4/7/23 21:02, Bjørn Jørgensen wrote:
>>
>> Yes, I have done some search for slack alternatives
>> 
>> I feel that we should do some search, to find if there can be a
>> better solution than slack.
>> For what I have found, there are two that can be an alternative for
>> slack.
>>
>> Rocket.Chat  
>>
>> and
>>
>> Zulip Chat 
>> Zulip Cloud Standard is free for open-source projects
>> 
>> Witch means we get
>>
>>- Unlimited search history
>>- File storage up to 10 GB per user
>>- Message retention policies
>>
>>- Brand Zulip with your logo
>>- Priority commercial support
>>- Funds the Zulip open source project
>>
>>
>> Rust is using zulip  
>>
>> We can import chats from slack
>> 
>> We can use zulip for events   With multi-use
>> invite links , there’s no need
>> to create individual Zulip invitations.  This means that PMC doesn't have
>> to send a link to every user.
>> CODE BLOCKS
>>
>> Discuss code with ease using Markdown code blocks, syntax highlighting,
>> and code playgrounds
>> .
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> fre. 7. apr. 2023 kl. 18:54 skrev Holden Karau :
>>
>>> I think there was some concern around how to make any sync channel show
>>> up in logs / index / search results?
>>>
>>> On Fri, Apr 7, 2023 at 9:41 AM Dongjoon Hyun 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Thank you, All.

 I'm very satisfied with the focused and right questions for the real
 issues by removing irrelevant claims. :)

 Let me collect your relevant comments simply.


 # Category 1: Invitation Hurdle

 > The key question here is that do PMC members have the bandwidth of
 inviting everyone in user@ and dev@?

 > Extending this to inviting everyone on @user (over >4k  subscribers
 according to the previous thread) might be a stretch,

 > we should have an official project Slack with an easy invitation
 process.


 # Category 2: Controllability

 > Additionally. there is no indication that the-asf.slack.com is
 intended for general support.

 > I would also lean towards a standalone workspace, where we have more
 control over organizing the channels,

Re: Slack for Spark Community: Merging various threads

[Dongjoon Hyun]

Thank you, Holden, Bjorn, Maciej.

Yes, those are also valid.

Dongjoon.

On Sat, Apr 8, 2023 at 4:20 AM Maciej  wrote:

> @Bjørn Matrix (represented by element in the linked summary. Also, since
> the last year, Rocket Chat uses Matrix under the hood) is already used for
> user support and related discussions for a number of large projects, since
> gitter migrated there. And it is not like we need Slack or its replacement
> in the first place. Some of the Slack features are useful for us, but its
> not exactly the best tool for user support IMHO.
>
> @Dongjoon There are probably two more things we should discuss:
>
>- What are data privacy obligations while keeping a communication
>channel, advertised as official, outside the ASF?  Does it put it out of
>scope for the ASF legal and data privacy teams?
>
>If I recall correctly, Slack requires at least some of the formalities
>to be handled by the primary owner and as far as I am aware the project is
>not a legal person. Not sure how linen.dev or another retention tool
>fits into all of that, but it's unrealistic to expect it makes things
>easier.
>
>This might sound hypothetical, but we've already seen users leaking
>sensitive information on the mail list and requesting erasure (which,
>luckily for us, is not technically possible).
>
>- How are we going to handle moderation, if we assume number of users
>comparable to Delta Lake Slack and open registration? At minimum we have to
>ensure that the ASF Code of Conduct is respected. An official channel or
>not, failure to do that reflects badly on the project, the ASF and all of
>us.
>
> --
> Maciej
>
>
>
> On 4/7/23 21:02, Bjørn Jørgensen wrote:
>
> Yes, I have done some search for slack alternatives
> 
> I feel that we should do some search, to find if there can be a
> better solution than slack.
> For what I have found, there are two that can be an alternative for slack.
>
> Rocket.Chat  
>
> and
>
> Zulip Chat 
> Zulip Cloud Standard is free for open-source projects
> 
> Witch means we get
>
>- Unlimited search history
>- File storage up to 10 GB per user
>- Message retention policies
>
>- Brand Zulip with your logo
>- Priority commercial support
>- Funds the Zulip open source project
>
>
> Rust is using zulip  
>
> We can import chats from slack
> 
> We can use zulip for events   With multi-use
> invite links , there’s no need
> to create individual Zulip invitations.  This means that PMC doesn't have
> to send a link to every user.
> CODE BLOCKS
>
> Discuss code with ease using Markdown code blocks, syntax highlighting,
> and code playgrounds 
> .
>
>
>
>
>
>
> fre. 7. apr. 2023 kl. 18:54 skrev Holden Karau :
>
>> I think there was some concern around how to make any sync channel show
>> up in logs / index / search results?
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 7, 2023 at 9:41 AM Dongjoon Hyun 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you, All.
>>>
>>> I'm very satisfied with the focused and right questions for the real
>>> issues by removing irrelevant claims. :)
>>>
>>> Let me collect your relevant comments simply.
>>>
>>>
>>> # Category 1: Invitation Hurdle
>>>
>>> > The key question here is that do PMC members have the bandwidth of
>>> inviting everyone in user@ and dev@?
>>>
>>> > Extending this to inviting everyone on @user (over >4k  subscribers
>>> according to the previous thread) might be a stretch,
>>>
>>> > we should have an official project Slack with an easy invitation
>>> process.
>>>
>>>
>>> # Category 2: Controllability
>>>
>>> > Additionally. there is no indication that the-asf.slack.com is
>>> intended for general support.
>>>
>>> > I would also lean towards a standalone workspace, where we have more
>>> control over organizing the channels,
>>>
>>>
>>> # Category 3: Policy Suggestion
>>>
>>> > *Developer* discussions should still happen on email, JIRA and GitHub
>>> and be async-friendly (72-hour rule) to fit the ASF’s development model.
>>>
>>>
>>> Are there any other questions?
>>>
>>>
>>> Dongjoon.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>> Twitter: https://twitter.com/holdenkarau
>> Books (Learning Spark, High Performance Spark, etc.):
>> https://amzn.to/2MaRAG9  
>> YouTube Live Streams: https://www.youtube.com/user/holdenkarau
>>
>
>
> --
> Bjørn Jørgensen
> Vestre Aspehaug 4, 6010 Ålesund
> Norge
>
> +47 480 94 297
>
>
>

Re: Slack for Spark Community: Merging various threads

[Maciej]

@Bjørn Matrix (represented by element in the linked summary. Also, since 
the last year, Rocket Chat uses Matrix under the hood) is already used 
for user support and related discussions for a number of large projects, 
since gitter migrated there. And it is not like we need Slack or its 
replacement in the first place. Some of the Slack features are useful 
for us, but its not exactly the best tool for user support IMHO.


@Dongjoon There are probably two more things we should discuss:

 * What are data privacy obligations while keeping a communication
   channel, advertised as official, outside the ASF?  Does it put it
   out of scope for the ASF legal and data privacy teams?

   If I recall correctly, Slack requires at least some of the
   formalities to be handled by the primary owner and as far as I am
   aware the project is not a legal person. Not sure how linen.dev or
   another retention tool fits into all of that, but it's unrealistic
   to expect it makes things easier.

   This might sound hypothetical, but we've already seen users leaking
   sensitive information on the mail list and requesting erasure
   (which, luckily for us, is not technically possible).

 * How are we going to handle moderation, if we assume number of users
   comparable to Delta Lake Slack and open registration? At minimum we
   have to ensure that the ASF Code of Conduct is respected. An
   official channel or not, failure to do that reflects badly on the
   project, the ASF and all of us.

--
Maciej



On 4/7/23 21:02, Bjørn Jørgensen wrote:
Yes, I have done some search for slack alternatives 

I feel that we should do some search, to find if there can be a 
better solution than slack.
For what I have found, there are two that can be an alternative for 
slack.


Rocket.Chat 

and

Zulip Chat 
Zulip Cloud Standard is free for open-source projects 


Witch means we get

  * Unlimited search history
  * File storage up to 10 GB per user
  * Message retention policies

  * Brand Zulip with your logo
  * Priority commercial support
  * Funds the Zulip open source project


Rust is using zulip 

We can import chats from slack 

We can use zulip for events  With 
multi-use invite links , 
there’s no need to create individual Zulip invitations.  This means 
that PMC doesn't have to send a link to every user.



  CODE BLOCKS

Discuss code with ease using Markdown code blocks, syntax 
highlighting, and code playgrounds 
.







fre. 7. apr. 2023 kl. 18:54 skrev Holden Karau :

I think there was some concern around how to make any sync channel
show up in logs / index / search results?

On Fri, Apr 7, 2023 at 9:41 AM Dongjoon Hyun
 wrote:

Thank you, All.

I'm very satisfied with the focused and right questions for
the real issues by removing irrelevant claims. :)

Let me collect your relevant comments simply.


# Category 1: Invitation Hurdle

> The key question here is that do PMC members have the
bandwidth of inviting everyone in user@ and dev@?

> Extending this to inviting everyone on @user (over >4k 
subscribers according to the previous thread) might be a stretch,

> we should have an official project Slack with an easy
invitation process.


# Category 2: Controllability

> Additionally. there is no indication thatthe-asf.slack.com
is intended for general support.

> I would also lean towards a standalone workspace, where we
have more control over organizing the channels,


# Category 3: Policy Suggestion

> *Developer* discussions should still happen on email, JIRA
and GitHub and be async-friendly (72-hour rule) to fit the
ASF’s development model.


Are there any other questions?


Dongjoon.


-- 
Twitter: https://twitter.com/holdenkarau

Books (Learning Spark, High Performance Spark, etc.):
https://amzn.to/2MaRAG9 
YouTube Live Streams: https://www.youtube.com/user/holdenkarau



--
Bjørn Jørgensen
Vestre Aspehaug 4, 6010 Ålesund
Norge

+47 480 94 297





OpenPGP_signature
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Slack for Spark Community: Merging various threads

[Bjørn Jørgensen]

Yes, I have done some search for slack alternatives

I feel that we should do some search, to find if there can be a
better solution than slack.
For what I have found, there are two that can be an alternative for slack.

Rocket.Chat  

and

Zulip Chat 
Zulip Cloud Standard is free for open-source projects

Witch means we get

   - Unlimited search history
   - File storage up to 10 GB per user
   - Message retention policies
   
   - Brand Zulip with your logo
   - Priority commercial support
   - Funds the Zulip open source project


Rust is using zulip  

We can import chats from slack

We can use zulip for events   With multi-use
invite links , there’s no need to
create individual Zulip invitations.  This means that PMC doesn't have to
send a link to every user.
CODE BLOCKS

Discuss code with ease using Markdown code blocks, syntax
highlighting, and code
playgrounds .






fre. 7. apr. 2023 kl. 18:54 skrev Holden Karau :

> I think there was some concern around how to make any sync channel show up
> in logs / index / search results?
>
> On Fri, Apr 7, 2023 at 9:41 AM Dongjoon Hyun 
> wrote:
>
>> Thank you, All.
>>
>> I'm very satisfied with the focused and right questions for the real
>> issues by removing irrelevant claims. :)
>>
>> Let me collect your relevant comments simply.
>>
>>
>> # Category 1: Invitation Hurdle
>>
>> > The key question here is that do PMC members have the bandwidth of
>> inviting everyone in user@ and dev@?
>>
>> > Extending this to inviting everyone on @user (over >4k  subscribers
>> according to the previous thread) might be a stretch,
>>
>> > we should have an official project Slack with an easy invitation
>> process.
>>
>>
>> # Category 2: Controllability
>>
>> > Additionally. there is no indication that the-asf.slack.com is
>> intended for general support.
>>
>> > I would also lean towards a standalone workspace, where we have more
>> control over organizing the channels,
>>
>>
>> # Category 3: Policy Suggestion
>>
>> > *Developer* discussions should still happen on email, JIRA and GitHub
>> and be async-friendly (72-hour rule) to fit the ASF’s development model.
>>
>>
>> Are there any other questions?
>>
>>
>> Dongjoon.
>>
>>
>> --
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/holdenkarau
> Books (Learning Spark, High Performance Spark, etc.):
> https://amzn.to/2MaRAG9  
> YouTube Live Streams: https://www.youtube.com/user/holdenkarau
>


-- 
Bjørn Jørgensen
Vestre Aspehaug 4, 6010 Ålesund
Norge

+47 480 94 297

Re: Slack for Spark Community: Merging various threads

[Holden Karau]

I think there was some concern around how to make any sync channel show up
in logs / index / search results?

On Fri, Apr 7, 2023 at 9:41 AM Dongjoon Hyun 
wrote:

> Thank you, All.
>
> I'm very satisfied with the focused and right questions for the real
> issues by removing irrelevant claims. :)
>
> Let me collect your relevant comments simply.
>
>
> # Category 1: Invitation Hurdle
>
> > The key question here is that do PMC members have the bandwidth of
> inviting everyone in user@ and dev@?
>
> > Extending this to inviting everyone on @user (over >4k  subscribers
> according to the previous thread) might be a stretch,
>
> > we should have an official project Slack with an easy invitation process.
>
>
> # Category 2: Controllability
>
> > Additionally. there is no indication that the-asf.slack.com is intended
> for general support.
>
> > I would also lean towards a standalone workspace, where we have more
> control over organizing the channels,
>
>
> # Category 3: Policy Suggestion
>
> > *Developer* discussions should still happen on email, JIRA and GitHub
> and be async-friendly (72-hour rule) to fit the ASF’s development model.
>
>
> Are there any other questions?
>
>
> Dongjoon.
>
>
> --
Twitter: https://twitter.com/holdenkarau
Books (Learning Spark, High Performance Spark, etc.):
https://amzn.to/2MaRAG9  
YouTube Live Streams: https://www.youtube.com/user/holdenkarau

Re: Slack for Spark Community: Merging various threads

[Dongjoon Hyun]

Thank you, All.

I'm very satisfied with the focused and right questions for the real issues
by removing irrelevant claims. :)

Let me collect your relevant comments simply.


# Category 1: Invitation Hurdle

> The key question here is that do PMC members have the bandwidth of
inviting everyone in user@ and dev@?

> Extending this to inviting everyone on @user (over >4k  subscribers
according to the previous thread) might be a stretch,

> we should have an official project Slack with an easy invitation process.


# Category 2: Controllability

> Additionally. there is no indication that the-asf.slack.com is intended
for general support.

> I would also lean towards a standalone workspace, where we have more
control over organizing the channels,


# Category 3: Policy Suggestion

> *Developer* discussions should still happen on email, JIRA and GitHub and
be async-friendly (72-hour rule) to fit the ASF’s development model.


Are there any other questions?


Dongjoon.

Re: Slack for Spark Community: Merging various threads

[Matei Zaharia]

To me, the most important opportunity here is to create a better support 
environment for users, and I think it’s super important to allow users to join 
immediately on their own if we want this to succeed. A lot of users these days 
do prefer to join a live chat interface to get support for an open source 
project than to email a list. Just look at how many people joined the Slack 
workspaces for related open source projects — there are 8000 users in the Delta 
Lake one, which covers only a subset of the Spark user community, so this is 
already more than the user@ mailing list. So I do think we should have an 
official project Slack with an easy invitation process.

*Developer* discussions should still happen on email, JIRA and GitHub and be 
async-friendly (72-hour rule) to fit the ASF’s development model.

Given the size of the overall Spark user base, I would also lean towards a 
standalone workspace, where we have more control over organizing the channels, 
have #general and #random channels that are only about Apache Spark, etc. I’m 
not sure that joining a Slack workspace that supports all ASF projects would 
work well for users seeking help, unless it’s being organized for broad user 
support that way. In practice, when you use the Slack UI, you can easily switch 
between different Slack workspaces and invite people from them into another 
workspace, so users should not have trouble participating in multiple Slack 
workspaces to cover different projects.

Just my 2 cents, maybe there is another approach that would work with the 
ASF-wide workspace, but I do think that Slack is meant to be used as a 
multi-workspace thing.

> On Apr 6, 2023, at 3:17 PM, Maciej  wrote:
> 
> Additionally. there is no indication that the-asf.slack.com is intended for 
> general support. In particular it states the following
> 
> > The Apache Software Foundation has a workspace on Slack 
> >  to provide channels on which people working on 
> > the same ASF project, or in the same area of the Foundation, can discuss 
> > issues, solve problems, and build community in real-time.
> 
> and then
> 
> > Other contributors and interested parties (observers, former members, 
> > software evaluators, members of the media, those without an @apache.org 
> > address) who want to participate in channels in the ASF workspace can use a 
> > guest account.
> 
> Extending this to inviting everyone on @user (over >4k  subscribers according 
> to the previous thread) might be a stretch, especially without knowing the 
> details of the agreement between the ASF and the Slack Technologies.
> 
> -- 
> Best regards,
> Maciej Szymkiewicz
> 
> Web: https://zero323.net 
> PGP: A30CEF0C31A501EC
> 
> On 4/6/23 17:13, Denny Lee wrote:
>> Thanks Dongjoon, but I don't think this is misleading insofar that this is 
>> not a self-service process but an invite process which admittedly I did not 
>> state explicitly in my previous thread.  And thanks for the invite to 
>> the-ASF Slack - I just joined :) 
>> 
>> Saying this, I do completely agree with your two assertions:
>> Shall we narrow-down our focus on comparing the ASF Slack vs another 
>> 3rd-party Slack because all of us agree that this is important?  
>> Yes, I do agree that is an important aspect, all else being equal.
>> I'm wondering what ASF misses here if Apache Spark PMC invites all remaining 
>> subscribers of `user@spark` and `dev@spark` mailing lists.
>> The key question here is that do PMC members have the bandwidth of inviting 
>> everyone in user@ and dev@?   There is a lot of overhead of maintaining this 
>> so that's my key concern is if we have the number of volunteers to manage 
>> this.  Note, I'm willing to help with this process as well it was just more 
>> of a matter that there are a lot of folks to approve  
>> A reason why we may want to consider Spark's own Slack is because we can 
>> potentially create different channels within Slack to more easily group 
>> messages (e.g. different threads for troubleshooting, RDDs, streaming, 
>> etc.).  Again, we'd need someone to manage this so that way we don't have an 
>> out of control number of channels.
>> WDYT?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Apr 5, 2023 at 10:50 PM Dongjoon Hyun > > wrote:
>>> Thank you so much, Denny.
>>> Yes, let me comment on a few things.
>>> 
>>> >  - While there is an ASF Slack , it
>>> >requires an @apache.org  email address
>>> 
>>> 1. This sounds a little misleading because we can see `guest` accounts in 
>>> the same link. People can be invited by "Invite people to ASF" link. I 
>>> invited you, Denny, and attached the screenshots.
>>> 
>>> >   using linen.dev  as its Slack archive (so we can 
>>> > surpass the 90 days limit)
>>> 
>>> 2. The official Foundation-supported Slack workspace preserves all messages.
>>> (the-asf.slack.com 

Re: Slack for Spark Community: Merging various threads

[Maciej]

Additionally. there is no indication that the-asf.slack.com is intended 
for general support. In particular it states the following


> The Apache Software Foundation has a workspace on Slack 
 to provide channels on which people working 
on the same ASF project, or in the same area of the Foundation, can 
discuss issues, solve problems, and build community in real-time.


and then

> Other contributors and interested parties (observers, former members, 
software evaluators, members of the media, those without an @apache.org 
address) who want to participate in channels in the ASF workspace can 
use a *guest* account.


Extending this to inviting everyone on @user (over >4k  subscribers 
according to the previous thread) might be a stretch, especially without 
knowing the details of the agreement between the ASF and the Slack 
Technologies.


--
Best regards,
Maciej Szymkiewicz

Web:https://zero323.net
PGP: A30CEF0C31A501EC


On 4/6/23 17:13, Denny Lee wrote:
Thanks Dongjoon, but I don't think this is misleading insofar that 
this is not a /self-service process/ but an invite process which 
admittedly I did not state explicitly in my previous thread.  And 
thanks for the invite to the-ASF Slack - I just joined :)


Saying this, I do completely agree with your two assertions:

  * /Shall we narrow-down our focus on comparing the ASF Slack vs
another 3rd-party Slack because all of us agree that this is
important? /
  o Yes, I do agree that is an important aspect, all else being equal.

  * /I'm wondering what ASF misses here if Apache Spark PMC invites
all remaining subscribers of `user@spark` and `dev@spark` mailing
lists./
  o The key question here is that do PMC members have the
bandwidth of inviting everyone in user@ and dev@?   There is a
lot of overhead of maintaining this so that's my key concern
is if we have the number of volunteers to manage this.  Note,
I'm willing to help with this process as well it was just more
of a matter that there are a lot of folks to approve
  o A reason why we may want to consider Spark's own Slack is
because we can potentially create different channels within
Slack to more easily group messages (e.g. different threads
for troubleshooting, RDDs, streaming, etc.).  Again, we'd need
someone to manage this so that way we don't have an out of
control number of channels.

WDYT?



On Wed, Apr 5, 2023 at 10:50 PM Dongjoon Hyun 
 wrote:


Thank you so much, Denny.
Yes, let me comment on a few things.

>  - While there is an ASF Slack
, it
>    requires an @apache.org  email address

1. This sounds a little misleading because we can see `guest`
accounts in the same link. People can be invited by "Invite people
to ASF" link. I invited you, Denny, and attached the screenshots.

>   using linen.dev  as its Slack archive (so we
can surpass the 90 days limit)

2. The official Foundation-supported Slack workspace preserves all
messages.
    (the-asf.slack.com )

> Why: Allows for the community to have the option to communicate
with each
> other using Slack; a pretty popular async communication.

3. ASF foundation not only allows but also provides the option to
communicate with each other using Slack as of today.

Given the above (1) and (3), I don't think we asked the right
questions during most of the parts.

1. Shall we narrow-down our focus on comparing the ASF Slack vs
another 3rd-party Slack because all of us agree that this is
important?
2. I'm wondering what ASF misses here if Apache Spark PMC invites
all remaining subscribers of `user@spark` and `dev@spark` mailing
lists.

Thanks,
Dongjoon.

invitation.png
invited.png

On Wed, Apr 5, 2023 at 7:23 PM Denny Lee 
wrote:

There have been a number of threads discussing creating a
Slack for the Spark community that I'd like to try to help
reconcile.

Topic: Slack for Spark

Why: Allows for the community to have the option to
communicate with each other using Slack; a pretty popular
async communication.

Discussion points:

  * There are other ASF projects that use Slack including
Druid , Parquet
, Iceberg
, and Hudi

  * Flink  is also using
Slack and using linen.dev  as its Slack
archive (so we can surpass the 90 days limit) which is
also Google searchable (Delta Lake

Re: Slack for Spark Community: Merging various threads

[Khalid Mammadov]

Hi,
I have been following this thread and want to add my 2 cents.
Apache Airflow project got Slack channel and it's self service! I joined it
and it costs me zero to use it where as one Mich send requires payed
subscription. IMHO, it will be major barrier for people to join just ask a
question.

I am not Slack guru but perhaps one of the Spark PMC members could reach
out to Airflow PMC members to ask how they have done it and who is
paying for it!

Their one is very cool with all the different channels for different topics
and very vibrant community!

Thanks
Khalid

On Thu, 6 Apr 2023, 16:13 Denny Lee,  wrote:

> Thanks Dongjoon, but I don't think this is misleading insofar that this is
> not a *self-service process* but an invite process which admittedly I did
> not state explicitly in my previous thread.  And thanks for the invite to
> the-ASF Slack - I just joined :)
>
> Saying this, I do completely agree with your two assertions:
>
>- *Shall we narrow-down our focus on comparing the ASF Slack vs
>another 3rd-party Slack because all of us agree that this is important? *
>
>- Yes, I do agree that is an important aspect, all else being equal.
>
>
>- *I'm wondering what ASF misses here if Apache Spark PMC invites all
>remaining subscribers of `user@spark` and `dev@spark` mailing lists.*
>- The key question here is that do PMC members have the bandwidth of
>   inviting everyone in user@ and dev@?   There is a lot of overhead
>   of maintaining this so that's my key concern is if we have the number of
>   volunteers to manage this.  Note, I'm willing to help with this process 
> as
>   well it was just more of a matter that there are a lot of folks to 
> approve
>   - A reason why we may want to consider Spark's own Slack is because
>   we can potentially create different channels within Slack to more easily
>   group messages (e.g. different threads for troubleshooting, RDDs,
>   streaming, etc.).  Again, we'd need someone to manage this so that way 
> we
>   don't have an out of control number of channels.
>
> WDYT?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 5, 2023 at 10:50 PM Dongjoon Hyun 
> wrote:
>
>> Thank you so much, Denny.
>> Yes, let me comment on a few things.
>>
>> >  - While there is an ASF Slack ,
>> it
>> >requires an @apache.org email address
>>
>> 1. This sounds a little misleading because we can see `guest` accounts in
>> the same link. People can be invited by "Invite people to ASF" link. I
>> invited you, Denny, and attached the screenshots.
>>
>> >   using linen.dev as its Slack archive (so we can surpass the 90 days
>> limit)
>>
>> 2. The official Foundation-supported Slack workspace preserves all
>> messages.
>> (the-asf.slack.com)
>>
>> > Why: Allows for the community to have the option to communicate with
>> each
>> > other using Slack; a pretty popular async communication.
>>
>> 3. ASF foundation not only allows but also provides the option to
>> communicate with each other using Slack as of today.
>>
>> Given the above (1) and (3), I don't think we asked the right questions
>> during most of the parts.
>>
>> 1. Shall we narrow-down our focus on comparing the ASF Slack vs another
>> 3rd-party Slack because all of us agree that this is important?
>> 2. I'm wondering what ASF misses here if Apache Spark PMC invites all
>> remaining subscribers of `user@spark` and `dev@spark` mailing lists.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dongjoon.
>>
>> [image: invitation.png]
>> [image: invited.png]
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 5, 2023 at 7:23 PM Denny Lee  wrote:
>>
>>> There have been a number of threads discussing creating a Slack for the
>>> Spark community that I'd like to try to help reconcile.
>>>
>>> Topic: Slack for Spark
>>>
>>> Why: Allows for the community to have the option to communicate with
>>> each other using Slack; a pretty popular async communication.
>>>
>>> Discussion points:
>>>
>>>- There are other ASF projects that use Slack including Druid
>>>, Parquet
>>>, Iceberg
>>>, and Hudi
>>>
>>>- Flink  is also using Slack
>>>and using linen.dev as its Slack archive (so we can surpass the 90
>>>days limit) which is also Google searchable (Delta Lake
>>> is also using this service as
>>>well)
>>>- While there is an ASF Slack ,
>>>it requires an @apache.org email address to use which is quite
>>>limiting which is why these (and many other) OSS projects are using the
>>>free-tier Slack
>>>- It does require managing Slack properly as Slack free edition
>>>limits you to approx 100 invites.  One of the ways to resolve this is to
>>>create a bit.ly link so we can manage the invites without 

Re: Slack for Spark Community: Merging various threads

[Denny Lee]

Thanks Dongjoon, but I don't think this is misleading insofar that this is
not a *self-service process* but an invite process which admittedly I did
not state explicitly in my previous thread.  And thanks for the invite to
the-ASF Slack - I just joined :)

Saying this, I do completely agree with your two assertions:

   - *Shall we narrow-down our focus on comparing the ASF Slack vs another
   3rd-party Slack because all of us agree that this is important? *
   - Yes, I do agree that is an important aspect, all else being equal.


   - *I'm wondering what ASF misses here if Apache Spark PMC invites all
   remaining subscribers of `user@spark` and `dev@spark` mailing lists.*
   - The key question here is that do PMC members have the bandwidth of
  inviting everyone in user@ and dev@?   There is a lot of overhead of
  maintaining this so that's my key concern is if we have the number of
  volunteers to manage this.  Note, I'm willing to help with this
process as
  well it was just more of a matter that there are a lot of folks
to approve
  - A reason why we may want to consider Spark's own Slack is because
  we can potentially create different channels within Slack to more easily
  group messages (e.g. different threads for troubleshooting, RDDs,
  streaming, etc.).  Again, we'd need someone to manage this so that way we
  don't have an out of control number of channels.

WDYT?



On Wed, Apr 5, 2023 at 10:50 PM Dongjoon Hyun 
wrote:

> Thank you so much, Denny.
> Yes, let me comment on a few things.
>
> >  - While there is an ASF Slack , it
> >requires an @apache.org email address
>
> 1. This sounds a little misleading because we can see `guest` accounts in
> the same link. People can be invited by "Invite people to ASF" link. I
> invited you, Denny, and attached the screenshots.
>
> >   using linen.dev as its Slack archive (so we can surpass the 90 days
> limit)
>
> 2. The official Foundation-supported Slack workspace preserves all
> messages.
> (the-asf.slack.com)
>
> > Why: Allows for the community to have the option to communicate with each
> > other using Slack; a pretty popular async communication.
>
> 3. ASF foundation not only allows but also provides the option to
> communicate with each other using Slack as of today.
>
> Given the above (1) and (3), I don't think we asked the right questions
> during most of the parts.
>
> 1. Shall we narrow-down our focus on comparing the ASF Slack vs another
> 3rd-party Slack because all of us agree that this is important?
> 2. I'm wondering what ASF misses here if Apache Spark PMC invites all
> remaining subscribers of `user@spark` and `dev@spark` mailing lists.
>
> Thanks,
> Dongjoon.
>
> [image: invitation.png]
> [image: invited.png]
>
> On Wed, Apr 5, 2023 at 7:23 PM Denny Lee  wrote:
>
>> There have been a number of threads discussing creating a Slack for the
>> Spark community that I'd like to try to help reconcile.
>>
>> Topic: Slack for Spark
>>
>> Why: Allows for the community to have the option to communicate with each
>> other using Slack; a pretty popular async communication.
>>
>> Discussion points:
>>
>>- There are other ASF projects that use Slack including Druid
>>, Parquet
>>, Iceberg
>>, and Hudi
>>
>>- Flink  is also using Slack and
>>using linen.dev as its Slack archive (so we can surpass the 90 days
>>limit) which is also Google searchable (Delta Lake
>> is also using this service as
>>well)
>>- While there is an ASF Slack ,
>>it requires an @apache.org email address to use which is quite
>>limiting which is why these (and many other) OSS projects are using the
>>free-tier Slack
>>- It does require managing Slack properly as Slack free edition
>>limits you to approx 100 invites.  One of the ways to resolve this is to
>>create a bit.ly link so we can manage the invites without regularly
>>updating the website with the new invite link.
>>
>> Are there any other points of discussion that we should add here?  I'm
>> glad to work with whomever to help manage the various aspects of Slack
>> (code of conduct, linen.dev and search/archive process, invite
>> management, etc.).
>>
>> HTH!
>> Denny
>>
>>
>>

Re: Slack for Spark Community: Merging various threads

[Mich Talebzadeh]

Hello

Since last Friday we have had 84 members in the sparkcommunitytalk.slack.com so
that is a vote for itself in a democratic way (as far as I am concerned.)

With regard to the other matters, I agree one can have as much discussion
as desired. I leave it to others. I don't have any more to add with the
danger of repeating myself.

HTH

Mich Talebzadeh,
Lead Solutions Architect/Engineering Lead
Palantir Technologies
London
United Kingdom


   view my Linkedin profile



 https://en.everybodywiki.com/Mich_Talebzadeh



*Disclaimer:* Use it at your own risk. Any and all responsibility for any
loss, damage or destruction of data or any other property which may arise
from relying on this email's technical content is explicitly disclaimed.
The author will in no case be liable for any monetary damages arising from
such loss, damage or destruction.




On Thu, 6 Apr 2023 at 10:24, Maciej  wrote:

> Hi Mich,
>
> If repeated discussions indicate anything, it is that there is no
> consensus among maintainers regarding using Slack as an *official*
> communication channel. So which members and whose democracy are w talking
> about? I don't recall any vote... Oh, and when did we become a democracy
> anyway? :)
>
> All the concerns raised across preceding discussions seem valid and were
> not properly addressed.  One could add a few more (from privacy to
> long-term sustainability, not to mention other projects failures), but it
> is pointless if there is no agreement about what has been already
> discussed.  Additionally, I recall at least a few Spark-related communities
> (Slack, gitter) that emerged over the last 10 years or so and proved to be
> not so resilient after all.
>
> That being said, it is perfectly OK to have unofficial channels that can
> reduce the need for support from the contributors. At this point, the
> project is mature and has quite stable API and solutions to common problems
> are well documented. At the same time, users are more likely to encounter
> problems with platforms vendor's distributions and our lists are not the
>  and our lists are not the place to provide support for this anyway. If
> sparkcommunitytalk can become such a place (and save us further discussions
> on the topic) that's great, but please let's not confuse it with the
> official channel, especially when its current activity doesn't justify
> claims of its de facto legitimacy.
>
> On 4/6/23 08:49, Mich Talebzadeh wrote:
>
> Reminds me of a case of flogging a dead horse.
> 
>
> This has already been discussed many times and there is no need for
> further discussion or summary.
> The newly created stack community sparkcommunitytalk.slack.com is a
> reality and is there to stay. I don't see any competition with dev or user
> mailing lists. Please respect members' democratic values.
>
>
> Mich Talebzadeh,
> Lead Solutions Architect/Engineering Lead
> Palantir Technologies
> London
> United Kingdom
>
>
>view my Linkedin profile
> 
>
>
>  https://en.everybodywiki.com/Mich_Talebzadeh
>
>
>
> *Disclaimer:* Use it at your own risk. Any and all responsibility for any
> loss, damage or destruction of data or any other property which may arise
> from relying on this email's technical content is explicitly disclaimed.
> The author will in no case be liable for any monetary damages arising from
> such loss, damage or destruction.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 6 Apr 2023 at 06:51, Dongjoon Hyun 
> wrote:
>
>> Thank you so much, Denny.
>> Yes, let me comment on a few things.
>>
>> >  - While there is an ASF Slack ,
>> it
>> >requires an @apache.org email address
>>
>> 1. This sounds a little misleading because we can see `guest` accounts in
>> the same link. People can be invited by "Invite people to ASF" link. I
>> invited you, Denny, and attached the screenshots.
>>
>> >   using linen.dev as its Slack archive (so we can surpass the 90 days
>> limit)
>>
>> 2. The official Foundation-supported Slack workspace preserves all
>> messages.
>> (the-asf.slack.com)
>>
>> > Why: Allows for the community to have the option to communicate with
>> each
>> > other using Slack; a pretty popular async communication.
>>
>> 3. ASF foundation not only allows but also provides the option to
>> communicate with each other using Slack as of today.
>>
>> Given the above (1) and (3), I don't think we asked the right questions
>> during most of the parts.
>>
>> 1. Shall we narrow-down our focus on comparing the ASF Slack vs another
>> 3rd-party Slack because all of us agree that this is important?
>> 2. I'm wondering what ASF misses here if Apache Spark PMC invites all
>> remaining subscribers of `user@spark` and `dev@spark` mailing lists.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dongjoon.
>>
>> [image: invitation.png]
>> [image: invited.png]
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 5, 2023 at 7:23 PM 

Re: Slack for Spark Community: Merging various threads

[Maciej]

Hi Mich,

If repeated discussions indicate anything, it is that there is no 
consensus among maintainers regarding using Slack as an *official* 
communication channel. So which members and whose democracy are w 
talking about? I don't recall any vote... Oh, and when did we become a 
democracy anyway? :)


All the concerns raised across preceding discussions seem valid and were 
not properly addressed.  One could add a few more (from privacy to 
long-term sustainability, not to mention other projects failures), but 
it is pointless if there is no agreement about what has been already 
discussed.  Additionally, I recall at least a few Spark-related 
communities (Slack, gitter) that emerged over the last 10 years or so 
and proved to be not so resilient after all.


That being said, it is perfectly OK to have unofficial channels that can 
reduce the need for support from the contributors. At this point, the 
project is mature and has quite stable API and solutions to common 
problems are well documented. At the same time, users are more likely to 
encounter problems with platforms vendor's distributions and our lists 
are not the
 and our lists are not the place to provide support for this anyway. If 
sparkcommunitytalk can become such a place (and save us further 
discussions on the topic) that's great, but please let's not confuse it 
with the official channel, especially when its current activity doesn't 
justify claims of its de facto legitimacy.


On 4/6/23 08:49, Mich Talebzadeh wrote:
Reminds me of a case offlogging a dead horse. 



This has already been discussed many times and there is no need for 
further discussion or summary.
The newly created stack community sparkcommunitytalk.slack.com 
 is a reality and is there to 
stay. I don't see any competition with dev or user mailing lists. 
Please respect members' democratic values.



Mich Talebzadeh,
Lead Solutions Architect/Engineering Lead
Palantir Technologies
London
United Kingdom


**view my Linkedin profile 




https://en.everybodywiki.com/Mich_Talebzadeh

*Disclaimer:* Use it at your own risk.Any and all responsibility for 
any loss, damage or destruction of data or any other property which 
may arise from relying on this email's technical content is explicitly 
disclaimed. The author will in no case be liable for any monetary 
damages arising from such loss, damage or destruction.




On Thu, 6 Apr 2023 at 06:51, Dongjoon Hyun  
wrote:


Thank you so much, Denny.
Yes, let me comment on a few things.

>  - While there is an ASF Slack
, it
>    requires an @apache.org  email address

1. This sounds a little misleading because we can see `guest`
accounts in the same link. People can be invited by "Invite people
to ASF" link. I invited you, Denny, and attached the screenshots.

>   using linen.dev  as its Slack archive (so we
can surpass the 90 days limit)

2. The official Foundation-supported Slack workspace preserves all
messages.
    (the-asf.slack.com )

> Why: Allows for the community to have the option to communicate
with each
> other using Slack; a pretty popular async communication.

3. ASF foundation not only allows but also provides the option to
communicate with each other using Slack as of today.

Given the above (1) and (3), I don't think we asked the right
questions during most of the parts.

1. Shall we narrow-down our focus on comparing the ASF Slack vs
another 3rd-party Slack because all of us agree that this is
important?
2. I'm wondering what ASF misses here if Apache Spark PMC invites
all remaining subscribers of `user@spark` and `dev@spark` mailing
lists.

Thanks,
Dongjoon.

invitation.png
invited.png

On Wed, Apr 5, 2023 at 7:23 PM Denny Lee 
wrote:

There have been a number of threads discussing creating a
Slack for the Spark community that I'd like to try to help
reconcile.

Topic: Slack for Spark

Why: Allows for the community to have the option to
communicate with each other using Slack; a pretty popular
async communication.

Discussion points:

  * There are other ASF projects that use Slack including
Druid , Parquet
, Iceberg
, and Hudi

  * Flink  is also using
Slack and using linen.dev  as its Slack
archive (so we can surpass the 90 days limit) which is
also Google 

Re: Slack for Spark Community: Merging various threads

[Mich Talebzadeh]

Reminds me of a case of flogging a dead horse.


This has already been discussed many times and there is no need for further
discussion or summary.
The newly created stack community sparkcommunitytalk.slack.com is a reality
and is there to stay. I don't see any competition with dev or user mailing
lists. Please respect members' democratic values.


Mich Talebzadeh,
Lead Solutions Architect/Engineering Lead
Palantir Technologies
London
United Kingdom


   view my Linkedin profile



 https://en.everybodywiki.com/Mich_Talebzadeh



*Disclaimer:* Use it at your own risk. Any and all responsibility for any
loss, damage or destruction of data or any other property which may arise
from relying on this email's technical content is explicitly disclaimed.
The author will in no case be liable for any monetary damages arising from
such loss, damage or destruction.




On Thu, 6 Apr 2023 at 06:51, Dongjoon Hyun  wrote:

> Thank you so much, Denny.
> Yes, let me comment on a few things.
>
> >  - While there is an ASF Slack , it
> >requires an @apache.org email address
>
> 1. This sounds a little misleading because we can see `guest` accounts in
> the same link. People can be invited by "Invite people to ASF" link. I
> invited you, Denny, and attached the screenshots.
>
> >   using linen.dev as its Slack archive (so we can surpass the 90 days
> limit)
>
> 2. The official Foundation-supported Slack workspace preserves all
> messages.
> (the-asf.slack.com)
>
> > Why: Allows for the community to have the option to communicate with each
> > other using Slack; a pretty popular async communication.
>
> 3. ASF foundation not only allows but also provides the option to
> communicate with each other using Slack as of today.
>
> Given the above (1) and (3), I don't think we asked the right questions
> during most of the parts.
>
> 1. Shall we narrow-down our focus on comparing the ASF Slack vs another
> 3rd-party Slack because all of us agree that this is important?
> 2. I'm wondering what ASF misses here if Apache Spark PMC invites all
> remaining subscribers of `user@spark` and `dev@spark` mailing lists.
>
> Thanks,
> Dongjoon.
>
> [image: invitation.png]
> [image: invited.png]
>
> On Wed, Apr 5, 2023 at 7:23 PM Denny Lee  wrote:
>
>> There have been a number of threads discussing creating a Slack for the
>> Spark community that I'd like to try to help reconcile.
>>
>> Topic: Slack for Spark
>>
>> Why: Allows for the community to have the option to communicate with each
>> other using Slack; a pretty popular async communication.
>>
>> Discussion points:
>>
>>- There are other ASF projects that use Slack including Druid
>>, Parquet
>>, Iceberg
>>, and Hudi
>>
>>- Flink  is also using Slack and
>>using linen.dev as its Slack archive (so we can surpass the 90 days
>>limit) which is also Google searchable (Delta Lake
>> is also using this service as
>>well)
>>- While there is an ASF Slack ,
>>it requires an @apache.org email address to use which is quite
>>limiting which is why these (and many other) OSS projects are using the
>>free-tier Slack
>>- It does require managing Slack properly as Slack free edition
>>limits you to approx 100 invites.  One of the ways to resolve this is to
>>create a bit.ly link so we can manage the invites without regularly
>>updating the website with the new invite link.
>>
>> Are there any other points of discussion that we should add here?  I'm
>> glad to work with whomever to help manage the various aspects of Slack
>> (code of conduct, linen.dev and search/archive process, invite
>> management, etc.).
>>
>> HTH!
>> Denny
>>
>>
>>

Re: Slack for Spark Community: Merging various threads

[Dongjoon Hyun]

Thank you so much, Denny.
Yes, let me comment on a few things.

>  - While there is an ASF Slack , it
>requires an @apache.org email address

1. This sounds a little misleading because we can see `guest` accounts in
the same link. People can be invited by "Invite people to ASF" link. I
invited you, Denny, and attached the screenshots.

>   using linen.dev as its Slack archive (so we can surpass the 90 days
limit)

2. The official Foundation-supported Slack workspace preserves all messages.
(the-asf.slack.com)

> Why: Allows for the community to have the option to communicate with each
> other using Slack; a pretty popular async communication.

3. ASF foundation not only allows but also provides the option to
communicate with each other using Slack as of today.

Given the above (1) and (3), I don't think we asked the right questions
during most of the parts.

1. Shall we narrow-down our focus on comparing the ASF Slack vs another
3rd-party Slack because all of us agree that this is important?
2. I'm wondering what ASF misses here if Apache Spark PMC invites all
remaining subscribers of `user@spark` and `dev@spark` mailing lists.

Thanks,
Dongjoon.

[image: invitation.png]
[image: invited.png]

On Wed, Apr 5, 2023 at 7:23 PM Denny Lee  wrote:

> There have been a number of threads discussing creating a Slack for the
> Spark community that I'd like to try to help reconcile.
>
> Topic: Slack for Spark
>
> Why: Allows for the community to have the option to communicate with each
> other using Slack; a pretty popular async communication.
>
> Discussion points:
>
>- There are other ASF projects that use Slack including Druid
>, Parquet
>, Iceberg
>, and Hudi
>
>- Flink  is also using Slack and
>using linen.dev as its Slack archive (so we can surpass the 90 days
>limit) which is also Google searchable (Delta Lake
> is also using this service as
>well)
>- While there is an ASF Slack ,
>it requires an @apache.org email address to use which is quite
>limiting which is why these (and many other) OSS projects are using the
>free-tier Slack
>- It does require managing Slack properly as Slack free edition limits
>you to approx 100 invites.  One of the ways to resolve this is to create a
>bit.ly link so we can manage the invites without regularly updating
>the website with the new invite link.
>
> Are there any other points of discussion that we should add here?  I'm
> glad to work with whomever to help manage the various aspects of Slack
> (code of conduct, linen.dev and search/archive process, invite
> management, etc.).
>
> HTH!
> Denny
>
>
>

Slack for Spark Community: Merging various threads

[Denny Lee]

There have been a number of threads discussing creating a Slack for the
Spark community that I'd like to try to help reconcile.

Topic: Slack for Spark

Why: Allows for the community to have the option to communicate with each
other using Slack; a pretty popular async communication.

Discussion points:

   - There are other ASF projects that use Slack including Druid
   , Parquet
   , Iceberg
   , and Hudi
   
   - Flink  is also using Slack and
   using linen.dev as its Slack archive (so we can surpass the 90 days
   limit) which is also Google searchable (Delta Lake
    is also using this service as well)
   - While there is an ASF Slack , it
   requires an @apache.org email address to use which is quite limiting
   which is why these (and many other) OSS projects are using the free-tier
   Slack
   - It does require managing Slack properly as Slack free edition limits
   you to approx 100 invites.  One of the ways to resolve this is to create a
   bit.ly link so we can manage the invites without regularly updating the
   website with the new invite link.

Are there any other points of discussion that we should add here?  I'm glad
to work with whomever to help manage the various aspects of Slack (code of
conduct, linen.dev and search/archive process, invite management, etc.).

HTH!
Denny